Off Topic, but input needed

LSter

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So my mom has a 2004 Expedition Eddie Bauer. When she locks it and repeatedly hits the 7|8 9|0 buttons on the keypad repeatedly a few times (it varies, but its somewhere over 7 times), the truck will start WITHOUT the key anywhere the ignition. As soon as you open the door and sit in the driver's seat, it shuts itself off. Sometimes, you have to put the key in the ignition, "start" it, put it into gear, put it back into park, and shut it down. I at first thought it was a short in the PATS caused by moisture (it only happened when it rained or snowed), but I got it to do it the other day when it was bone dry. I'm guessing its a short with the PATS, but I can't understand how it could short to where it starts without the transponder key even near the truck.

Question 1: Is this your all's consensus about the cause?
Question 2: Will a local shop deal with this or is this a FoMoCo deal?

Any help/insight would be appreciated!
 
Why repeatedly hit those two buttons? Once will do......

I would only trust a dealer with this type of "Ford specific" electrical problem.

That said, I had an intermittent issue on a '91 Sable where the keypad would do weird things. I opened up the door and found that years of window up/down caused the lift mechanism to chafe through the wiring harness causing a short. I taped up the damaged area and the issue was sorted.
 
It has also done it randomly when the lock button is hit on the keyfob. I just don't know how a short on the keypad would cause the truck to start. Other than being tied into the PATS system, they shouldn't be linked by any common system other than electrical.
 
I would suspect that there is a remote start installed, and it is where the problem is. It could be aftermarket and/or dealer installed.
 
^ exactly this ^
Question 1: Is this your all's consensus about the cause?
this is as far as possible from the case

ford did not offer a remote start option FROM THE FACTORY on Expeditions in 2004. the car will not start itself.

so at some time, somebody has put a remote start system on the car. and something is causing it to activate.

Question 2: Will a local shop deal with this or is this a FoMoCo deal?
this depends on ifs a dealer remote start system. if it is then a dealer is the place you want to take it, they will be able to test it or figure out if it is just set up weird. if it is not a dealer system, the only thing a dealer will do is charge you to remove it and make repairs to the car (if needed) to get it back in OEM condition.

if taken to a good local shop, they could do the same as above and could probably take a look at it and figure out if it is a faulty system or a weird configuration.

if i was doing that, i would start either looking under the dash and check or by a little testing on the car to figure out exactly what activates it (there is a good chance its not as random as you think) some systems dont come with remotes and can be activated by the factory remote, there is two common ways this can be done. the first is with newer heavily can controled cars (not the case with the car in question), for certain new GM and chrysler cars, when you turn the key, the cars computer actually fully controls the starting process, a quick flip of the key and the car then cranks the motor as long as it needs to get the motor started. since these cars already start themselves, you can actually use a fraction of the parts and just add this feature to the factory computer.

the other way this can be done is almost all R/S systems have a programmable trigger wire that will activate the system from something else like another aftermarket alarm of a wire in the car. on very common use of this is to hook the activation wire up to the cars lock wire then programming it for a certain amount of pulses, in this case, lets say three pulses (can be more, or could be a quick pulse and a long pulse...) now every time you press the lock button on the OEM remote 3x the cars lock wire triggers the activation wire of the R/R system and the car will start. as a side effect of this, pressing the lock button on the inside of the door will have the same effect. pressing the last two buttons at the same time on fords with a drivers key pad, will lock the door, so pressing them 3x will also activate the starter.

if this is the case then the system is not failing but is working as setup.


As soon as you open the door and sit in the driver's seat, it shuts itself off. Sometimes, you have to put the key in the ignition, "start" it, put it into gear, put it back into park, and shut it down

this could also not be as random as you think.

most people automatically press there foot on the brake pedal as soon as they get into the car or very shortly after in the starting process, pressing your foot on the brake will always shut down a car that is remote started. so if you get into the car and step on the brake before you insert the key and turn it to the ignition/run position, it shuts off. but if you get in to the car insert the key and turn it to the ignition/run position then step on the brake the system turns off but the car will stay running because the key is on and is now keeping the car running, since you have to step on the brake to shift the car and drive it, the remote start system could remain active until you are trying to drive it.


I would also disassemble the under dash and find the system, see what model it is and download the manual and verify how it is hooked up to see what the real deal is.
 
I was under the impression that aftermarket remote start systems disable the PATS system. The PATS system is still active on the truck.
 
I was under the impression that aftermarket remote start systems disable the PATS system. The PATS system is still active on the truck.

No, they do not. They bypass it while remote starting. This is not the same as disabling it. PATS will still be active. BTW, there's not supposed to be any way to disable it. It's coded into the PCM firmware. If it could be disabled, thieves would do so.
 
BTW, there's not supposed to be any way to disable it. It's coded into the PCM firmware. If it could be disabled, thieves would do so.

It depends on how the system is actually implemented on whether it can be disabled. For example, on a 1997-2003 Chevy Malibu (or any other N-body car) a thief would only need a 2200K resistor and some time to bypass the PATS system. Install the resistor across two wires under the passenger side kick panel, follow a procedure which is pretty much turning the key to the on position for 10 minutes (has to be done a specific way) then off you go with a screwdriver for a key. What the resistor does is take the place of the measured resistance that the system is looking for across the key, and the 10 minute procedure relearns the system to the installed resistor value. Of course, the end result is the thief has a Malibu, which are such pieces of crap that I can only see the value in one to a chop shop.

An organized thief would spend a few hundred dollars to buy HP Tuners, a couple hundred more to buy a family license for the PCM used to operate the car, then tap into the PCM and turn PATS off. A thief would just need to steal 2 of these cars and chop them for parts to pay for the tuner software. Every single car using that PCM that this thief came across would then be gone in 60 seconds. This was actually how I ended up doing it, because I know a guy who has the correct license and he turned it off for me.

Incidentally, I don't know about this because I steal Malibus for a living. The resistor procedure is all over the internet as a fix for the poorly designed and unrevised ignition switch. My daughter has one, and these cars have an engineering design flaw where the ignition key mechanism wears out within 30K miles, and when it wears out the car will have intermittent no start problems, will actually die while going down the highway when the system suddenly decides that the key it let start the car 20 minutes before is suddenly not an allowed key, ect.
 
It depends on how the system is actually implemented on whether it can be disabled.
but he is talking about PATS here.

For example, on a 1997-2003 Chevy Malibu (or any other N-body car) a thief would only need a 2200K resistor and some time to bypass the PATS system. Install the resistor across two wires under the passenger side kick panel, follow a procedure which is pretty much turning the key to the on position for 10 minutes (has to be done a specific way) then off you go with a screwdriver for a key. What the resistor does is take the place of the measured resistance that the system is looking for across the key, and the 10 minute procedure relearns the system to the installed resistor value. Of course, the end result is the thief has a Malibu, which are such pieces of crap that I can only see the value in one to a chop shop.

PATS is a world of difference from GM's VATS, Passlock I and Passlock II (transponder based vs resistance based)
 
but he is talking about PATS here.



PATS is a world of difference from GM's VATS, Passlock I and Passlock II (transponder based vs resistance based)

Yes, apples to oranges comparison.
 
Since I was so thoroughly thrashed on it :p, did a little looking on how Ford's system actually works. Yes, they are apples and oranges, but both of them are fruit. VATS and PATS are different in that one uses a resistor and the other uses an encoded chip, but both are pieces of crap.

I didn't watch the video, but it looks like someone came up with a way to physically bypass the system. Might check it out and see if it would apply. If so, this would allow the remote start to operate the car normally.

Looks like really poor engineering went into the PATS system too. Another key near the ignition key can keep it from working, and apparently the antenna inside is made of something like 30ga wire, and is tightly attached to the inside of the steering column in a way that using the tilt function on the steering column will cause the wire to flex right at its connector. Just terrible.

Oh, also came across some posts indicating that on some cars SCT's handheld tuner can disable PATS, if it can't for the Lincoln then enough people asking for the function might get them to add it in via a software update for the LS.
 
...Looks like really poor engineering went into the PATS system too. ...

The six or so cars that I have had with PATS (still have three of them) have never had any PATS problem. Neither have any of the dozen or so with PATS in my family. I'm sure there are some problems now and then, but by my experience so far, it is very reliable.
 
but both are pieces of crap.
well i have seen plenty of failure for a lot of the passlock GM cars, certain cars a hell of a lot more, but have never personally came across someone having a PATS issue, are you really seeing a lot? are you just against any passive theft systems are is there one you like a lot better? not trying to attack you, just trying to understand what makes them crap.

I didn't watch the video, but it looks like someone came up with a way to physically bypass the system. Might check it out and see if it would apply. If so, this would allow the remote start to operate the car normally.
yes this is just a home made version of a remote start bypass that put a key into, except that its no where near as well built, its going to become a rats nest of wires under the dash, then that really is a bunch of extra wire crammed in and around the PATS antenna. now your talking about risking poor reliability.





when doing a remote start, if you really cant afford a data bypass and want to stick a key into, just buy one of these, if $14 is a budget breaker, then a RS is not the best ideal for this car...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...52080&ef_id=UUD1CAAAABDtvtcp:20131122035941:s

Looks like really poor engineering went into the PATS system too. Another key near the ignition key can keep it from working, and apparently the antenna inside is made of something like 30ga wire, and is tightly attached to the inside of the steering column in a way that using the tilt function on the steering column will cause the wire to flex right at its connector. Just terrible.
too many close keys could be a problem with transponder based system (pretty much everybody other than gm, hell even GM switch to it with Passkey 3 cars ) dont think i have actually ever seen it as an issue, and Ive seen a lot of people with 3 to 4 chipped keys on the same ring.

all the ones Ive work with, the antenna is thin wire (you don't want think wire, signal not current.) mounted right to the key cylinder, with a pretty stout harness, the flexing happens much further down the wires. i dont think i heard on any forum about problems with the connection failing from moving the steering wheel.
 
No worries. I don't take things personally. I don't even take things seriously for the most part. It'll all be the same in 100 years.

Yes, I'm against any sort of PATS-style system as you have to jump through hoops to use computers for them in any different applications, and because when they fail you almost have to involve a dealer to fix them, and the dealers refuse to deactivate them for customers. I realize the OEM doesn't care about off-application issues, but it still annoys me.

On the thin wire problem, I was made aware of that when I was looking for a way around PATS. Someone else reported that they had the problem, and it came about from the way the wire was secured vs the driver used the tilt wheel to move the steering wheel up and down every time they entered/exited the vehicle. I can see this being a problem on the LS, with its entry-assist feature that automatically moves the wheel up and the seat back when you shut the car off.
 
...way the wire was secured vs the driver used the tilt wheel to move the steering wheel up and down every time they entered/exited the vehicle. I can see this being a problem on the LS, with its entry-assist feature that automatically moves the wheel up and the seat back when you shut the car off.

I'm afraid I don't see that problem, as the key and PATS receiver do not move with the steering column at all. They are mounted to the dash, not the column.

Also, I wouldn't say that the "dealers refuse to deactivate them." You're asking them to do something that they simply do not have the ability to do.
 
I'm afraid I don't see that problem, as the key and PATS receiver do not move with the steering column at all. They are mounted to the dash, not the column.

True, for the LS. Course, might be an issue for the Expedition the OP is asking about, I don't know where they put the key. I was just looking for a way to deactivate the Ford PATS in general, not just on the LS.
 
Someone else reported that they had the problem, and it came about from the way the wire was secured vs the driver used the tilt wheel to move the steering wheel up and down every time they entered/exited the vehicle. I can see this being a problem on the LS, with its entry-assist feature that automatically moves the wheel up and the seat back when you shut the car off.

I (and now my daughter) have used the easy entry/exit feature for 13 years without an issue.....
 
I (and now my daughter) have used the easy entry/exit feature for 13 years without an issue.....

Heh heh... 3.5hrs and a dollar short - Joegr already caught it, pointed out that the key is in the dash on the LS. Still not used to that particular little bit.
 
honestly, we all couldn't afford insurance if every manufacture didn't design in some sort of security system into cars, and of any kind, transponder based key systems is the easiest to do and the most effective. yes of course cars with chipped keys can still be stolen, but it does add a damn high degree of difficulty to the matter, making stealing most cars in need of a much more sophisticated criminals. even the best alarm still needs to be activated before it can be of any use to any one, the best part of a "passive" system is that you dont have to do anything, it just works.

in case of a failure in the system, you dont really need a dealer, but todays cars need a whole different set of tools to be worked on properly, some of these tools may be quite expensive.
 
Ok, so I'm going to hunt for the remote start module that apparently was installed on the vehicle before we bought it from the dealership. Where are the most common places that these things are located?
 
at a minimum, there would be wires tapped into the wires at the ignition harness, i would start by removing the panels under the steering column and looking there running up the steering column.
 
So I found out which module is on the vehicle. It's an Avital 4003. It's set to start after a specific number of pulses from the lock button either on the keypad or the fob.

Another quick question: is the LS remote start ready? I had a shop tell me that it is, but I can't find hard evidence that it is. Thanks!
 
So I found out which module is on the vehicle. It's an Avital 4003. It's set to start after a specific number of pulses from the lock button either on the keypad or the fob.

Another quick question: is the LS remote start ready? I had a shop tell me that it is, but I can't find hard evidence that it is. Thanks!

What do you mean by "remote start ready?"
Yes, you can add remote start to the LS.
No, it's not plug-n-play. You will be cutting and splicing wires.
 
From what the shop told me (and through a bit of research), there are some cars that are called "Remote Start Ready", meaning you only have to add an aftermarket remote start module without having to do any modifications. He said the LS was remote start ready, but I wanted to check that out with people who know before I went and bought stuff.
 

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