Hubris : Selling the Iraq War
- Thread starter hrmwrm
- Start date
Let me simplify the prevailing theory...
Islam is a growing threat in the world. It will continue to consolidate power in an effort to create a modern Caliphate, and through the power of fundamentalism and nuclear power, represent a 21st century threat far greater than that presented by the communists. The communists were content to expand through soft expansion and actually had a strong sense of self-preservation. This does not exist in Islam.
By establishing a strong, successful, modern Iraq- we would create an example through the region that the down trodden could aspire to.
In doing so, avoiding the alienation associated with fundamentalism. And in doing so, preventing a prolonged or broadened conflict in the near future.
As Iraq already had some Western sensibilities, and we thought, some vestigages of an infrastructure, this may be the best, last hope we had in the region.
For this region, the prolonged Iraq engagement made more sense than Afghanistan- to prevent more death in the future.
The Iraqi War was not about oil. It was a profoundly IDEALISTIC foreign policy decision with the intention of using a smaller scale military operation to to project influence to avoid a broader war, with more death, in the future.
Did it work, could it have worked, when did it fail? What will be the consequences of inaction, or failed action? That's up to you to decide.
Islam is a growing threat in the world. It will continue to consolidate power in an effort to create a modern Caliphate, and through the power of fundamentalism and nuclear power, represent a 21st century threat far greater than that presented by the communists. The communists were content to expand through soft expansion and actually had a strong sense of self-preservation. This does not exist in Islam.
By establishing a strong, successful, modern Iraq- we would create an example through the region that the down trodden could aspire to.
In doing so, avoiding the alienation associated with fundamentalism. And in doing so, preventing a prolonged or broadened conflict in the near future.
As Iraq already had some Western sensibilities, and we thought, some vestigages of an infrastructure, this may be the best, last hope we had in the region.
For this region, the prolonged Iraq engagement made more sense than Afghanistan- to prevent more death in the future.
The Iraqi War was not about oil. It was a profoundly IDEALISTIC foreign policy decision with the intention of using a smaller scale military operation to to project influence to avoid a broader war, with more death, in the future.
Did it work, could it have worked, when did it fail? What will be the consequences of inaction, or failed action? That's up to you to decide.
well, if you're a south american or middle east country in the last century, so is american imperialism.
wtf? they are not the slums of india. your view is just too far gone for any hope of a continuing conversation in this. just like you think palestine was a bunch of tent people when the jews came. you are just cut off from reality.
Was that a conscious attempt to deflect, or was it just a more naive action- because you don't have an intelligent response, you felt compelled to just say something?
I can't say that I really care, but your point is without merit.
It neither addressed MY point, nor does it advance the point made in your original post.
Was that a conscious attempt to deflect, or was it just a more naive action- because you don't have an intelligent response, you felt compelled to just say something?
I can't say that I really care, but your point is without merit.
It neither addressed MY point, nor does it advance the point made in your original post.
Stop wasting our time.
More to the point- you can disagree with the logic that supported the Iraq War.
You can disagree with my presentation of the logic that was used to actually support the War.
I think we'll find broad agreement when it comes to the manner in which it was pursued, and possibly even the outcome.
But spare me us time wasting nonsense that you just presented.
You can disagree with my presentation of the logic that was used to actually support the War.
I think we'll find broad agreement when it comes to the manner in which it was pursued, and possibly even the outcome.
But spare me us time wasting nonsense that you just presented.
93mkviii
Dedicated LVC Member
Now that was a perfect response. It's amazing how perspective changes the whole story. In someone's view one can be the worst crazy person yet another's view the same person can be an honorable brilliant person. The idea of how you can take a general term like being a muslim/christian/black/white and tie it with a general description is something hitler preached. It gets so complicated it isn't a discussion to have on a forum typing IMO. You can say Iraq is the last hope for muslims but we do daily business with SA like they are family. I'm sorry but how you can tie destruction of countries on religion is total BS. Fundamentalists? Sure. People? Sure. But a whole religion which includes more than a billion people? Hell no. Don't blame the gun, blame the person holding the gun. I don't attack gun holders when someone who owns a gun kills someone I blame the person. Do you not do the same when it's about guns? It's an individual problem not a general problem.
Islam is appealing because men can officially treat women like property, even kill them with impunity, something our own religious conservatives IMO secretly philosophically support when they aren't getting excited fantasizing about a bigger military.
All religious extremists are identical in intent.
Faith in nonsense is a powerful force (The Force is strong on the weak minded) when you are kind of dim to begin with.
Jews IMO as a people are smarter than Arabs and have contributed a lot to humanity for their 12 million people and 150+ Nobel prizes compared to the 1.2 billion Muslims who tanked as scientists and intellectuals in the 15th century and have only produced 5 Nobel winners.
Jews rule in war, routing the Muslims decisively with their superior capabilities and intelligence.
This is why they are hated and vilified with outrageous stories of blood libel and children eating by Jews among other lies.
It's actually telling that the Arab Muslims can't come up with anything better than that, pretty pathetic even cartoonish as a training for hatred but typical of flawed human creation.
They can't even run the oilfields to get the oil we discovered for them in the 1930s out of the ground and into pipelines and tankers without the help of 500,000 of us expatriate American British and Dutch "infidels" and this is 2013!
Left to themselves they turn on each other's Sunni or Shiite sects.
This hotheadednessis is a weakness of pride we can use against them.
I would go so far as to say that we should use agent provocateurs to spread religious insults that covertly encourage our enemies to kill each other instead of fighting with us.
Speaking about human creation, Intelligent Design for instance somehow presumes human beings are intelligent or well designed, despite the range of intelligence, personality balance sheet flaws, diseases, birth defects, wars, murders, killing for pleasure, child abuse, Moral Hazard, pollution, wanting something for nothing, mortality and so on.
Pretty bad designing IMO unless it was meant to be a joke.
For Muslims it's worth the BS and nonsense of putting up with Islam for men to enjoy ruling over women and treating them like sh!t.
After all God or Allah is a man.
He is never portrayed as female(despite women being the ones giving birth) bisexual transgendered, or genderless or something like a Star Trekian pure energy field.
It's just pure male conceit.
It is hard for someone, men especially, raised in a barbaric and primitive religious man rule culture to want to give that up.
It's like our gun culture in that american men like what they have and don't want to give it up.
But the good news is that 20% of americans do not have a religious affiliation today, up from 5% 20 years ago so it would appear religion and the religious right is finally on the losing end of history 50 years after the cultural and sexual revolution.
This bodes well for the future of the country.
Their anti democratic stick their noses in people's lives anti abortion and contraception efforts at the state level are a direct response to losing the social revolution and a confused vengeful and vindictive form of superiority attempting to punish the sexually active (the sinners)
Prior to Roe v Wade Evangelicals were ok with abortion which seems unbelievable now.
Muslim culture and Sharia Law is anathema to american traditions and values.
They cannot seperate church and state.
In Arab Muslim controlled countries Death is the penalty for conversion to Christianity or another religion or apostacy by renouncing belief.
"Killing Jews brings us closer to Allah" is a common superlative.
Pretty insecure and barbaric.
It's only because of their low numbers of less than 1% of the population that they are "peaceful" here and we don't have a constant problem.
Despite Obama's partial Muslim heritage the government has wisely and quietly decided not to allow much immigration from Muslim countries or make it fast and/or easy to come here from one.
All religious extremists are identical in intent.
Faith in nonsense is a powerful force (The Force is strong on the weak minded) when you are kind of dim to begin with.
Jews IMO as a people are smarter than Arabs and have contributed a lot to humanity for their 12 million people and 150+ Nobel prizes compared to the 1.2 billion Muslims who tanked as scientists and intellectuals in the 15th century and have only produced 5 Nobel winners.
Jews rule in war, routing the Muslims decisively with their superior capabilities and intelligence.
This is why they are hated and vilified with outrageous stories of blood libel and children eating by Jews among other lies.
It's actually telling that the Arab Muslims can't come up with anything better than that, pretty pathetic even cartoonish as a training for hatred but typical of flawed human creation.
They can't even run the oilfields to get the oil we discovered for them in the 1930s out of the ground and into pipelines and tankers without the help of 500,000 of us expatriate American British and Dutch "infidels" and this is 2013!
Left to themselves they turn on each other's Sunni or Shiite sects.
This hotheadednessis is a weakness of pride we can use against them.
I would go so far as to say that we should use agent provocateurs to spread religious insults that covertly encourage our enemies to kill each other instead of fighting with us.
Speaking about human creation, Intelligent Design for instance somehow presumes human beings are intelligent or well designed, despite the range of intelligence, personality balance sheet flaws, diseases, birth defects, wars, murders, killing for pleasure, child abuse, Moral Hazard, pollution, wanting something for nothing, mortality and so on.
Pretty bad designing IMO unless it was meant to be a joke.
For Muslims it's worth the BS and nonsense of putting up with Islam for men to enjoy ruling over women and treating them like sh!t.
After all God or Allah is a man.
He is never portrayed as female(despite women being the ones giving birth) bisexual transgendered, or genderless or something like a Star Trekian pure energy field.
It's just pure male conceit.
It is hard for someone, men especially, raised in a barbaric and primitive religious man rule culture to want to give that up.
It's like our gun culture in that american men like what they have and don't want to give it up.
But the good news is that 20% of americans do not have a religious affiliation today, up from 5% 20 years ago so it would appear religion and the religious right is finally on the losing end of history 50 years after the cultural and sexual revolution.
This bodes well for the future of the country.
Their anti democratic stick their noses in people's lives anti abortion and contraception efforts at the state level are a direct response to losing the social revolution and a confused vengeful and vindictive form of superiority attempting to punish the sexually active (the sinners)
Prior to Roe v Wade Evangelicals were ok with abortion which seems unbelievable now.
Muslim culture and Sharia Law is anathema to american traditions and values.
They cannot seperate church and state.
In Arab Muslim controlled countries Death is the penalty for conversion to Christianity or another religion or apostacy by renouncing belief.
"Killing Jews brings us closer to Allah" is a common superlative.
Pretty insecure and barbaric.
It's only because of their low numbers of less than 1% of the population that they are "peaceful" here and we don't have a constant problem.
Despite Obama's partial Muslim heritage the government has wisely and quietly decided not to allow much immigration from Muslim countries or make it fast and/or easy to come here from one.
yes, in denunciation, it's always comparable to hitler, isn't it.93mkviii said:
as for the rest, i don't know wtf your on. i didn't tie anything to destruction of countries on religion. maybe you wish to elaborate.
or maybe you were replying to cal.
but, while on the subject of religions destroying countries, it was bush who said it was a crusade.
i'll just leave that there.
now,if you watched the video, it is about how you were lied to about the reasons for the war.
the war that was unfunded and now has cost how many trillion in total?
maybe you'd like to keep on subject.
Well
take my superlative musings with a grain of salt.
To wit:
Religion should be declared a form of mental illness LOL!
(beyond reason as faith proudly self identifies itself)
so we can run out of politics and put away the nut jobs who violate the Establishment Clause and in a complete violation of conservative principles of keeping the government out of people's lives stick themselves into the most intimate parts of people's lives
There's at least 8 seats conservatives could have won if they hadn't run social conservative nut job candidates.
Talk about a self inflicted wound.
Politics is not Religion and winning an election takes compromise.
Ronald Reagan passed a liberal abortion law when he was governor of California even though he himself was against abortion.
Also
Conservatives need to stop getting hard while fantasizing about a bigger military.
Military Welfare is bankrupting this country.
They p!ss away money like idiots on useless garbage and the "worthy" but get a pass on the usual conservative management principals of efficiency and results by basically saying that the Military is a god they worship (faith beyond reason?) and this dim headed hypocritical embarassment is the best they can do, while cutting off poor people.
We should cut off the Military for incompetence based on how grossly it has squandered money the worshiping warmongers have sucked off the taxpayer in the past.
There's this thing called "girls" but most conservatives are frustrados not attractive to modern women (and most every one under 30) so in revenge they turn and attack women for their rejection as a compensation.
"If you don't like us and do us, well F<<K You!
Women hate each other and the subjugated, wanting to be slapped around treated as property, Adam's Rib women conservatives do attract, enjoy seeing them attack the independent ones as tramps ho's and harlots.
What we need are "Goldwater" conservatives and not the loser(of elections) cartoon characters we have now.
It would be amusing if it wasn't so tragic what the social conservatives are doing to America.
The current social conservatives need replacing (or stated another way patriot Republicans need to "Put Them Away" as the British Prime Minister told Alex in Clockwork Orange - so the party won't keep being dominated by losers) as the country won't be rescued out of it's decline merely by Liberals yelling:
"Where's My Money!"
my favorite liberal superlative
take my superlative musings with a grain of salt.
To wit:
Religion should be declared a form of mental illness LOL!
(beyond reason as faith proudly self identifies itself)
so we can run out of politics and put away the nut jobs who violate the Establishment Clause and in a complete violation of conservative principles of keeping the government out of people's lives stick themselves into the most intimate parts of people's lives
There's at least 8 seats conservatives could have won if they hadn't run social conservative nut job candidates.
Talk about a self inflicted wound.
Politics is not Religion and winning an election takes compromise.
Ronald Reagan passed a liberal abortion law when he was governor of California even though he himself was against abortion.
Also
Conservatives need to stop getting hard while fantasizing about a bigger military.
Military Welfare is bankrupting this country.
They p!ss away money like idiots on useless garbage and the "worthy" but get a pass on the usual conservative management principals of efficiency and results by basically saying that the Military is a god they worship (faith beyond reason?) and this dim headed hypocritical embarassment is the best they can do, while cutting off poor people.
We should cut off the Military for incompetence based on how grossly it has squandered money the worshiping warmongers have sucked off the taxpayer in the past.
There's this thing called "girls" but most conservatives are frustrados not attractive to modern women (and most every one under 30) so in revenge they turn and attack women for their rejection as a compensation.
"If you don't like us and do us, well F<<K You!
Women hate each other and the subjugated, wanting to be slapped around
treated as property, Adam's Rib women conservatives do attract, enjoy seeing them attack the independent ones as tramps ho's and harlots.What we need are "Goldwater" conservatives and not the loser(of elections) cartoon characters we have now.
It would be amusing if it wasn't so tragic what the social conservatives are doing to America.
The current social conservatives need replacing (or stated another way patriot Republicans need to "Put Them Away" as the British Prime Minister told Alex in Clockwork Orange - so the party won't keep being dominated by losers) as the country won't be rescued out of it's decline merely by Liberals yelling:
"Where's My Money!
"my favorite liberal superlative
Letter to the Editor on NBC
"An aircraft carrier is presently being built. according to Time Mag. It will be the 12th one. The next highest number that I believe England has is 2 or 3, not more than 3. The projected cost for the new carrier is $16,000,000,000. Why are we having another one being made? In addition to the carrier, the pentagon will be looking for more dollars to build a support fleet. That will cost many more billions of dollars. According to not my priorities dot org. Time Mag. issued a report last year, or late in 2011 with a detailed report on the monies spent by the Pentagon. It suggested that we could save ~$1trillion over a 10 yr. period if it truly started to cut back on unnecessary spending. Like; do we really need another aircraft carrier, the F35 is not necessary, we are already way ahead of other countries with combat aircraft technology. We have ~ 700 military bases around the world. The budget in 2010 for the Pentagon was $577,000,000,000; Iraq &Afghanistan cost $128,000,000,000. The total cost was $705.000.000.000 for 2010. The percentage of the total fed. budget that went to the pentagon plus the two conflicts was ~ 63%. Almost more than all the other countries, friend and foe, combined spent in that year. We need to shift our spending to infrastructures here in our countries, e.g., bridges, highways etc. Also on developing reusable energy projects. I'm sure that the military corps. can transition. We did it in 1941, car manufactures transition from making cars, to building tanks and planes for the war effort. No reason why we couldn't go the other direction."
______________________________________________________________
Getting excited by a big military to show off our manhood costs the country a lot.
Cutting the Military in half would pay for a lot of the free money democrats and poor people keep asking for and could actually be good for the country.
"An aircraft carrier is presently being built. according to Time Mag. It will be the 12th one. The next highest number that I believe England has is 2 or 3, not more than 3. The projected cost for the new carrier is $16,000,000,000. Why are we having another one being made? In addition to the carrier, the pentagon will be looking for more dollars to build a support fleet. That will cost many more billions of dollars. According to not my priorities dot org. Time Mag. issued a report last year, or late in 2011 with a detailed report on the monies spent by the Pentagon. It suggested that we could save ~$1trillion over a 10 yr. period if it truly started to cut back on unnecessary spending. Like; do we really need another aircraft carrier, the F35 is not necessary, we are already way ahead of other countries with combat aircraft technology. We have ~ 700 military bases around the world. The budget in 2010 for the Pentagon was $577,000,000,000; Iraq &Afghanistan cost $128,000,000,000. The total cost was $705.000.000.000 for 2010. The percentage of the total fed. budget that went to the pentagon plus the two conflicts was ~ 63%. Almost more than all the other countries, friend and foe, combined spent in that year. We need to shift our spending to infrastructures here in our countries, e.g., bridges, highways etc. Also on developing reusable energy projects. I'm sure that the military corps. can transition. We did it in 1941, car manufactures transition from making cars, to building tanks and planes for the war effort. No reason why we couldn't go the other direction."
______________________________________________________________
Getting excited by a big military to show off our manhood costs the country a lot.
Cutting the Military in half would pay for a lot of the free money democrats and poor people keep asking for and could actually be good for the country.
upon another perusal, I see the meaning better. guess I saw it from a perspective that it was sarcastic at first. sorry of my statement above.
yes, fundamentalism in any religion will lead to actions that are not of the cult itself, but of the few who wish to use it to enforce their own misguided beliefs. and, yes, hitler himself knew how to guide hate, just as the right wing Christians and the muslim extremists. as steve weinberg said.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg"
[url]http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/19/dead-boston-bombing-suspect-was-a-very-religious-muslim-boxer/[/URL]
Very religious people are the most dangerous people on Earth.
Look at what our own talibanlike conservatives have been up to.
It's only a matter of degree.