Student Kicks NCLB's Texan Ass!
by tepster
Sun Feb 20th, 2005 at 13:03:50 PST

Besides the fact that even Republican lawmakers are turning their backs on NCLB, a freshman at a Texas high school used her time during a practice run of the upcoming TAKS to write an essay on the impact impact high-stakes testing has on her learning life.

She took the advice of her counselors, who told her to choose her battles wisely (meaning TAKE THE DAMN TEST) and so she did- choosing to go ahead with crafting her thoughts on the matter instead of filling in the bubbles like a good little girl.

Now will she pay the price?

Jenny LaCoste-Caputo
Express-News Staff Writer

Mia Kang stared at the test sheet on her desk.

It only was practice. Teachers call it a "field test" to give them an idea of how students will perform on the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills.

But instead of filling in the bubbles and making her teacher happy, Mia, a freshman at MacArthur High School, used her answer sheet to write an essay that challenged standardized testing and using test scores to judge children and rank schools.

"I wrote about how standardized tests are hurting and not helping schools and kids," said Mia, who looks and acts older than her 14 years. "I just couldn't participate in something that I'm completely opposed to."

Mia isn't boycotting just the practice tests. The straight-A student said she'll refuse to take the state- and federally-mandated tests Texas teachers begin administrating next week.

The decision isn't a popular one. When Mia refused to take the practice test, two school guidance counselors came to the classroom to try to change her mind.

"They warned me that it would be a black mark on my record and that I should choose my battles wisely," Mia said.

Mia is the latest in a growing number of students nationwide who are showing their opposition to high-stakes testing by putting down their pencils.

These young people say the "drill and kill" mentality of test preparation is destroying their thirst for knowledge and creating a generation of students who are missing crucial lessons in critical thinking, creativity and discovery.

Frustration also grips teachers, but at least in Texas, it's students who are making their voices heard.

Part of the reason frustration "grips" teachers is that NCLB has punishments embedded within that whip schools for not having at least 95% of their students TAKE the test, leading toward that ominous label of being one of the growing number of "failing" schools. Essentially, that means the law pits student-advocates (teachers AND parents) against the schools themselves.

Texas has been gauging student progress with high-stakes standardized tests for the past decade. The state's accountability program, which ranks schools based on student progress, became the blueprint for President Bush's sweeping education reform law, labeled No Child Left Behind.

...that blueprint, by the way, was based largely on the so-called Texas Miracle, which has been extensively debunked.

Under the federal mandate, schools must show progress in the overall student population, as well as in subgroups based on race, ethnicity, disability and economic status. The stakes are high, with some schools standing to lose students, money and autonomy if they fail to meet federal standards because too few students pass the tests.

Too may already have.

There is risk for individual students, too. In Texas, third- and fifth-graders must pass the test to be promoted to the next grade, and high school students must pass all four sections of the test -- English, math, social studies and science -- to earn a diploma, regardless of what their report card says.

So what does this mean for our intrepid heroine, Mia Kang, I wonder?

You can find the rest here.

It's important to know that this is not anti-testing at work here. As the superintendent in the article states, "There is a real punitive flavor to all of this. If you're testing to be diagnostic, to identify weaknesses and work on them, that's one thing. But all we hear about is dropping the hammer on schools."

The superintendent also states, "In both cases, it's not a matter of whether these students could pass or not. They're very, very capable students. I just hope they don't restrict opportunities in the future by doing this." Ironically, that is exactly the impact high-stakes testing has on students and on schools, in general.

As Mia, the very wise, says:

Test preparation dominates classes, Mia says, squeezing out time for meaningful discussion or creative projects.

"These tests don't measure what kids really need to know, they measure what's easy to measure," she said. "We should be learning concepts and skills, not just memorizing. It's sad for kids and it's sad for teachers, too.

We should support this courageous student. She's risking a lot more than most of us are willing to and she's one little ninth-grader!

Mia doesn't plan to take the TAKS test ever. Like Kimberly, she doesn't intend to participate even though it means her diploma is on the line. Both girls have stellar academic records and hope colleges see beyond one test.

"If my high school diploma means I passed one test in the 11th grade, then that's pretty meaningless," Mia said.

Does this mean Mia will never graduate?

It's a shame that more teachers don't or feel they can't act on what they know is a flawed and dangerous movement toward destroying public education in the eyes of the very public it serves.

It's a shame that most parents won't look beyond the Orwellian tag of the law's title.

And it's simply a crime that there are lawmakers who had their hand in this knowing FULL WELL what was to come. But their children are most likely tucked safely away at some private school while the rest of those who are less fortunate to have such resources on their side, are left behind in schools tagged as "failing" regardless of the exceptional staff and the extraordinary effort being made on their part (much of it, subversive!).

In reference to this news, a colleague of mine quoted Charles Beard, a 20th Century American historian, who, when asked to name the lessons of history, ended with "When it is dark
enough, you can see the stars."

These are dark times, and Mia Kang is a bright star.

Here's what you can do to support Mia and those who stand with her (i.e., those noted in the article):

Write to Mia Kang at her school:
MacArthur High School
2923 E Bitters Rd.
San Antonio, TX 78217

Write a letter to the editor of the San Antonio Express-News:

Letters
c/o Express-News
P.O. Box 2171
San Antonio, TX 78297-2171

Or fax to: (210) 250-3465 Include your daytime phone number for verification purposes only.

Email her principals, her teachers, the superintendent in support of Mia.

You can find all those connection on the school website:
http://www.neisd.net/mac/

Education is a civil rights issue.
Mia Kang is a hero in this movement.

Just another example of BuSh's "class warfare". Keep the poor dumb, and we'll eventually have a new class of slaves. Brilliant!
:Bang

This is to painful of a thread for me to respond to....:Bang

Hey boy that sounds so good no child left behind...:Bang

Only problem it leaves more children behind....:Bang

I guess if you make a catchy slogan the program works...... :Bang

So you guys have to logically be against the SAT, the ACT, the ASVAB, etc., etc., then, huh? Please answer this question yes or no and your reasons. If you are opposed to standardized testing for the NCLB program, you should respond.

The problem is, as the article shows, that teachers are forced to teach to the test rather than giving a well rounded education, otherwise the school can loose fed funding. This is great if you are trying to raise workers for Walmart, Kmart and Mcdonalds or to be good jackbooted republicans, but not very good if you have higher hopes for your kids.
This program was shown to be a failure in Texas, but it was used as a guideline for the national program just the same. It was proven that, in Texas, the books were cooked, students that were known to be unable to pass the test were held over for a year so as not to have to take the test and then promoted 2 grade levels to keep them on track to graduate, etc.

The problem is, as the article shows, that teachers are forced to teach to the test rather than giving a well rounded education, otherwise the school can loose fed funding. This is great if you are trying to raise workers for Walmart, Kmart and Mcdonalds, but not very good if you have higher hopes for your kids.I have no problems with a supposed "well rounded education", but the two can co-exist, just like the other standardized tests that I have mentioned. To become any of a number of different professions, a person must take a standardized test as well. The difference I see is that the other standardized tests can only impact the individual taking the test, and the NCLB tests can impact the schools and/or teachers. So the level of accountability has been raised.

Sounds to me like the schools and/or teachers are purposely trying to sabotage this program for their own sakes. My daughter has told me stories of a couple of her teachers at her high school that degrade the NCLB program to their students for basically the same reasons as was stated in that article. These teachers should not be doing this because they are abusing their influence on their students. I suspect this is what happened to the author of the article.

There are many classes and programs that encourage creativity, critical thinking and discovery, but kids still need to learn the basics in math, english, science and social studies. Normal tests are given in each individual class for a reason. If most of the students are failing the test, then doesn't the teacher evaluate their teaching methods and adjust accordingly? Again, it sounds like they just don't want to be held accountable for their own faults and are bucking change. The incorporation of NCLB in school curriculum is being made more difficult than it should. At least that's my opinion, and I have yet to see anything to dispute this.

Your example of the Texas students being held back then promoted is not proof that this system is a failure. It's proof that something extra needs to be done for the students that are having problems, which is the focus of the No Child Left Behind program in the first place.

So you guys have to logically be against the SAT, the ACT, the ASVAB, etc., etc., then, huh? Please answer this question yes or no and your reasons. If you are opposed to standardized testing for the NCLB program, you should respond.


So you are saying that a test can tell you what is the ability of a child?

You better go back to school then!!!

I guess all the research on learning styles don't apply!! But that would have been done by some liberal!!!

Sorry like I said NCLB sound good but it just doesn't work!!! To many variables to be tested!!! You can't!!!

What about the kid who's sick on the day of the test, or hell I could go on and on with all the things it can't do but it wouldn't matter... and 'm not going to get into one of those long post not in this forum!! Not worth it to me!! Conservative minds are stuck in park.....

We are all the same.....

So you are saying that a test can tell you what is the ability of a child?

You better go back to school then!!!

I guess all the research on learning styles don't apply!! But that would have been done by some liberal!!!

Sorry like I said NCLB sound good but it just doesn't work!!! To many variables to be tested!!! You can't!!!

What about the kid who's sick on the day of the test, or hell I could go on and on with all the things it can't do but it wouldn't matter... and 'm not going to get into one of those long post not in this forum!! Not worth it to me!! Conservative minds are stuck in park.....

We are all the same.....I don't understand your answer. Are you saying that you are opposed to all standardized tests?

EDIT: I forgot to add all the exclamation points like you do, so !!!!!!!!!!!!!

An example of the "success" of the Texas program.


Houston's 'Zero Dropout'

Fall 2003

By Michael Winerip

Robert Kimball, an assistant principal at Sharpstown High School, sat smack in the middle of the "Texas miracle." His poor, mostly minority high school of 1,650 students had a freshman class of 1,000 that dwindled to fewer than 300 students by senior year. And yet — and this is the miracle — not one dropout to report!

Nor was zero an unusual dropout rate in this school district that both President Bush and Secretary of Education Rod Paige have held up as the national showcase for accountability and the model for the federal No Child Left Behind law. Westside High here had 2,308 students and no reported dropouts; Wheatley High 731 students, no dropouts. A dozen of the city's poorest schools reported dropout rates under one percent.

Now, Dr. Kimball has witnessed many amazing things in his 58 years. Before he was an educator, he spent 24 years in the Army, fighting in Vietnam, rising to the rank of lieutenant colonel and touring the world. But never had he seen an urban high school with no dropouts. "Impossible," he said. "Someone will get pregnant, go to jail, get killed." Elsewhere in the nation, urban high schools report dropout rates of 20 percent to 40 percent.

A miracle? "A fantasy land," said Dr. Kimball. "They want the data to look wonderful and exciting. They don't tell you how to do it; they just say, 'Do it.'" In February, with the help of Dr. Kimball, the local television station KHOU broke the news that Sharpstown High had falsified its dropout data. That led to a state audit of 16 Houston schools, which found that of 5,500 teenagers surveyed who had left school, 3,000 should have been counted as dropouts but were not. In early August, the state appointed a monitor to oversee the district's data collection and downgraded 14 audited schools to the state's lowest rating.

Not very miraculous sounding, but here is the intriguing question: How did it get to the point that veteran principals felt they could actually claim zero dropouts? "You need to understand the atmosphere in Houston," Dr. Kimball said. "People are afraid. The superintendent has frequent meetings with principals. Before they go in, the principals are really, really scared. Panicky. They have to make their numbers."

Pressure? Some compare it to working under the old Soviet system of five-year plans. In January, just before the scandal broke, Abelardo Saavedra, deputy superintendent, unveiled Houston's latest mandates for the new year. "The districtwide student attendance rate will increase from 94.6 percent to 95 percent," he wrote. "The districtwide annual dropout rate will decrease from 1.5 percent to 1.3 percent."

Dropouts are notoriously difficult to track, particularly at a heavily Latino school like Sharpstown, with immigrants going back and forth to Mexico. Dr. Kimball said that Sharpstown shared one truant officer with several schools. Even so, Houston officials would not allow principals to write that the whereabouts of a departed student were "unknown." Last fall, Margaret Stroud, deputy superintendent, sent a memorandum warning principals to "make sure that you do not have any students coded '99,' whereabouts unknown." Too many "unknowns," she wrote, could prompt a state audit — the last thing Houston leaders wanted.

A shortage of resources to track departing students? No "unknowns" allowed? What to do? "Make it up," Dr. Kimball said. "The principals who survive are the yes men."

As for those who fail to make their numbers, it is termination time, one of many innovations championed by Dr. Paige as superintendent here from 1994 to 2001. He got rid of tenure for principals and mandated that they sign one-year contracts that allowed dismissal "without cause" and without a hearing.

On the other hand, for principals who make their numbers, it is bonus time. Principals can earn a $5,000 bonus, district administrators up to $20,000. At Sharpstown High alone, Dr. Kimball said, $75,000 in bonus money was issued last year, before the fictitious numbers were exposed.

Dr. Paige's spokesman, Dan Langan, referred dropout questions to Houston officials, but said that the secretary was proud of the accountability system he established here, that it got results and that principals freely signed those contracts.

Terry Abbott, a Houston district spokesman, agreed that both Dr. Paige and the current superintendent, Kaye Stripling, pressured principals to make district goals. "Secretary Paige said, and rightfully so, the public has a right to expect us to get this job done," Mr. Abbott said. The principals were not cowed, he said, declaring, "They thrive on it." Every administrator under Dr. Paige and Dr. Stripling, Mr. Abbott said, has understood "failure is not an option" and "that failure to do our jobs can mean that we could lose those jobs — and that's exactly the way it should be."

As for adequate resources for truant officers to verify dropouts, he said individual schools decided how to use their resources, but added, "Money is not the problem, and money by itself won't solve the issues we deal with every day."

To skeptics like Dr. Kimball, the parallels to No Child Left Behind are depressing. The federal law mandates that every child in America pass reading and math proficiency tests by 2014 — a goal many educators believe is as impossible as zero dropouts. And like Houston's dropout program, President Bush's education budget has been criticized as an underfinanced mandate, proposing $12 billion this year for Title 1, $6 billion below what the No Child Left Behind law permits. "This isn't about educating children," Dr. Kimball said. "It's about public relations."

If Houston officials were interested in accountability, he said, they would assign him to a high school to monitor the dropout data that he has come to understand so well. Instead, after he blew the whistle on Sharpstown High, he was reassigned, for four months, to sit in a windowless room with no work to do. More recently, he has been serving as the second assistant principal at a primary school, where, he said, he is not really needed. "I expect when my contract is up next January, I'll be fired," he said. "That's how it works here."

More articles here:http://www.rethinkingschools.org/special_reports/bushplan/index.shtml

No offense, but you post so many long articles with little information in them that I really don't have the time to dissect them all. If you can't answer it yourself in a paragraph or 2, then don't bother.

Seems like Houston is an example of what not to do. It doesn't mean that NCLB is a failure. It's more proof that there are too many incompetents teaching our children.

No offense, but you post so many long articles with little information in them that I really don't have the time to dissect them all. If you can't answer it yourself in a paragraph or 2, then don't bother.

Don't know about you, but when considering issues I'd rather read articles with information gained from people with first hand knowledge than 1 or 2 paragraphs written by people who don't.
If you are taking the time to post on a thread, you should be able to take the time to read the other posts in the thread. If you can't read the other posts, yours is nothing more than something thrown in for the sake of having a post on the thread.
I post articles so that people here can gain different perspectives on the issues, not to blindly follow the leader, right or wrong.

Don't know about you, but when considering issues I'd rather read articles with information gained from people with first hand knowledge than 1 or 2 paragraphs written by people who don't.
If you are taking the time to post on a thread, you should be able to take the time to read the other posts in the thread. If you can't read the other posts, yours is nothing more than something thrown in for the sake of having a post on the thread.
I post articles so that people here can gain different perspectives on the issues, not to blindly follow the leader, right or wrong.There's a difference between informative articles and editorials. :Bang Especially when I have already answered that entire article in 2 lines in my previous post. It's the equivalent of burying someone under a pile of paperwork. Maybe you could edit out the fluff and just post the facts. It'll take you more time in your posts, but it'll save everyone else a huge amount of time.

EDIT: And where's the "creative thinking" if you just post articles? This is counter to what you are arguing against.

I don't understand your answer. Are you saying that you are opposed to all standardized tests?

EDIT: I forgot to add all the exclamation points like you do, so !!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are tests that are reliable and work for their purpose!! But very few do!!

To test to see if a child can be passed to the next grade just doesn't work. A teacher spends a year evaluating each student to his or her ability!

To use a standardized test that is usually targeted for Texas or California and put that on the rest of the students just doesn't work!!!

I have taught for over 20 years. I have given the Iowa test of basic skill, and the Californian Achievement Test to my students. I have seen students who do very good in subject bomb these test!!

So I spend year on a student who meets all requirements to pass a subject then give the student a Standardized test and the child fails Damn I need to fail that child. That child can’t succeed!!!

Now I hold that child back and especially for the higher elementary grades this rips the child emotionally and sets this child for disaster.

I have also seen students who were retained early and when they reach 6th grade be emotionally to old to be with 12 year olds. Then you have to worry about other problems Sex is one major one!!!

I have not had a child who has been retained that the next year did better.

The only grades where retention works are Kindergarten or 1st Grade. Then I can see making students who fail classes in Middle school re-take classes and also High School.

Is there need for some work yes! But you just can’t say that a standardized test is going to solve the problems. The problems begin in the homes of these children not at school. School is where problem get discovered and addressed or develops into bigger problems when Home and School cannot work together to meet the needs of the problems.

What I see is that we have too many people angry about school situations what ever they may be and instead of working to create a better school they work to destroy the school. They don’t like that their dream child is failing or not meeting their expectations, they are not at home to work with the child, there careers are more important, the battle with their ex-spouse is in the way of the child what ever but they go after the school and do not work with the school to help their child.

Test are not going to save our schools it our life styles and putting our families first. It’s providing programs to help students after school with homework, it’s providing programs where students can learn to deal with all the other problems of their life, and somewhere in there we have to also teach the child.

What children lack these days are the 3 R’s – Respect, Responsibility, and Resourcefulness. They don’t learn these at home and nobody wants schools to teach these.

If I had students who can to school knowing the three R’s then we wouldn’t have anyone talking about standardized tests.

This is what you should be worried about… If you haven’t been in a classroom like I have been for the last 22 years you have no clue.

I am not worried about what these kids know, they are smart enough, and it’s getting them to do it. No standardized test, test this or can test this!!!

Kids don’t Respect their parents or any adult. They are not responsible check out how many students refuse to do schoolwork, and they are not resourceful, see how often they ask for the answer and when they don’t get it given to them they leave the answer blank!!!

Ok I wasn’t going to do this but I did!!!

Enough!!!!

Mespock, all your exclamation points do is show your irrationality. I don't participate in discussions that I have no clue on. Although I am not a teacher in a public school, I know full well of the lack of respect and responsibility in todays youth. It's funny that you bring that up because it is my opinion that this is a direct result of liberal philosophy in school discipline.

Again I say that the tests are not the failure. Your post further supports that something different needs to be done for a student that is failing these tests. Don't just hold them back and subject them to a repeat of something they've already failed. The SAT's are standardized and they work fine for almost all college entrance requirements. If your students are failing tests that other kids in other states are not, then my opinion is that there is something wrong with the teaching and/or curriculum.

Mespock, all your exclamation points do is show your irrationality. I don't participate in discussions that I have no clue on. Although I am not a teacher in a public school, I know full well of the lack of respect and responsibility in todays youth. It's funny that you bring that up because it is my opinion that this is a direct result of liberal philosophy in school discipline.

Again I say that the tests are not the failure. Your post further supports that something different needs to be done for a student that is failing these tests. Don't just hold them back and subject them to a repeat of something they've already failed. The SAT's are standardized and they work fine for almost all college entrance requirements. If your students are failing tests that other kids in other states are not, then my opinion is that there is something wrong with the teaching and/or curriculum.

You really don't have a clue LOL....But that's ok!! I'll live through it....

You and your children will suffer through it!! LOL!! Good luck with ignorance!!!

Mespock out!! Leaving the Politics to the ignorant I have a life and I'm going to live it!! Good luck to those who want to hang on!!

Don't live to far from Canada!!! Good Luck!!!

:q :q :q :q :q :q :q :q Oops I said a bad word Liberal!! LOL

You really don't have a clue LOL....But that's ok!! I'll live through it....

You and your children will suffer through it!! LOL!! Good luck with ignorance!!!

Mespock out!! Leaving the Politics to the ignorant I have a life and I'm going to live it!! Good luck to those who want to hang on!!

Don't live to far from Canada!!! Good Luck!!!

:q :q :q :q :q :q :q :q Oops I said a bad word Liberal!! LOLI guess I struck a nerve, huh? You may be too close to this subject to look at it objectively since you are stuck in the system. But please, pardon my "ignorance." I guess with your students, ignorance is bliss? :N

Bipartisan Study Assails No Child Left Behind Act
By Sam Dillon
The New York Times

Wednesday 23 February 2005

A bipartisan panel of state lawmakers that studied the effectiveness of President Bush's No Child Left Behind initiative assailed it today as a flawed, convoluted and unconstitutional education reform effort that had usurped state and local control of public schools.

While the report, based on hearings in several cities, praised the legislation's goal of ending the gap in scholastic achievement between white and minority students, most of its 77 pages was devoted to a detailed inventory and discussion of the initiative's flaws.

It found that the law undermined other school improvement efforts already under way in many states, and it said that the law's accountability system, which punishes schools whose students fail to improve steadily on standardized tests, relied on the wrong indicators.

"Under N.C.L.B., the federal government's role has become excessively intrusive in the day-to-day operations of public education," the National Conference of State Legislatures said in its panel's report. "The task force does not believe that N.C.L.B. is constitutional."

Several educational experts said the task force had accurately captured the views of thousands of state lawmakers and local educators. If so, then the Bush administration may face a growing chorus of challenges to the law and to the Department of Education's implementation of it over the coming months.

Nine state legislatures are currently considering various challenges to the law, and the Utah Senate is poised to vote on a bill already passed by its House that would require Utah education officials to give higher priority to state education laws than to the federal law.

Several business and other groups that strongly support the federal No Child Left Behind legislation took issue with the report, saying that the report's authors had overstated the quality of the state programs that they said the federal government had hampered.

In preparing their report, task force members worked for 10 months and held a series of public hearings in Washington, Chicago, Salt Lake City, New York, Santa Fe and Portland. The panel also met for deliberations in Savannah, Ga.

"They went out and heard lots of things from different people around the country, and this report reflects the breadth and depth of what they heard," said Patricia Sullivan, director of the Washington-based Center on Education Policy, who attended hearings in two cities.

An assistant secretary of education, Ray Simon, met with members of the task force in Washington today to discuss the report.

"The department will continue to work with every state to address their concerns and make this law work for their children," the Education Department said in a statement. "But the report could be interpreted as wanting to reverse the progress we've made."

It added, "No Child Left Behind is bringing new hope and new opportunity to families throughout America, and we will not reverse course."

I pay $4000/yr in school property taxes. One of the highest rates in the nation. A disguntled school board member printed out the salaries of each and every teacher/admin in the entire school system. Over a 1/2 dozen "Phy-Ed" teachers making $100,000+ a year, not including perks. My wife and I send 3 of our kids to private, religious schools. Why? We could be like all our selfish neighbors and use that money saved and buy all the extra perks that they do. You know, keep up with the Jones'. Why don't we? Because I compare and contast the level of education my kids get to their kids. Their kids have fancy new buildings with classrooms filled with computers and multiple gymnasiums and swimming pools. And yet every year, they come back to the well again and again with referendums to raise my taxes $500/yr for the next 20 years with their grandious plans. I want to throw up.

My kids don't have fancy digs. They have to get up at 6:00 because the bus system caters to the public school schedule, (we usually drive them anyway). A computer is shared by the class. They don't have their own like the public schools. The gym they play basketball in is exactly the same as the one I played in as a kid. It hasn't changed or even been painted. Parents still sit on metal chairs as opposed to fancy beachers.

All this talk about education makes me ill. It is all about the teacher and the student. Public education puts its money in all the wrong places. There is more than enough money to go around. We have to hold cookies sales and things like that to make ends meet. Our kids get educated on half the money that is spent per pupil in the public system. I have looked at the curriculum of both the public and private systems. There is no comparison. My kids learn about Jesus and being good to your neighbor. My neighbor kids in the same grade learn about masturbation and genital growth.


We make the sacrifice because in the end, it is the fundamental balance of a quality teacher and parents who care that provides an education. Not bricks and tile and huge salaries for tenured phy-ed teachers.

I will have wasted $6000/yr averaged over the next 28 years to pay for the education of other parents kids so they can drive a fancier car or go on an extended vacation. Simply makes me ill. Why can't I "opt" out of the public system and instead invest that money in college savings plans for my kids? Why can't I. Want to talk about fair? What's fair about the taxation system in this country that constantly steals from the rich and gives to the greedy. That's your idea of fair?

And all you guys want to do is Bash Bush because he wants to make sure that kids are getting the education that all of us are paying for. Get real. You want your kid to be a burger flipper? Send him to a public school.

The public education system is broken. The teachers union and the school boards are infested with liberals whose only agenda is to keep taking and taking, feeding off the public and demanding that nobody hold them accountable. That is the real fact about education in this country. Bashing Bush and Bashing Arnold seem to be the new game in town. If you take on the establishment, expect to hear the from the left. They are good at criticizing. Just not too good at fixing.

Too bad that "bipartisan panel" didn't put their heads together and come up with some kind of plan to fix whatever shortcomings NCLB may have. Just because it's labelled "bipartisan" doesn't mean it's not political in nature. NCLB = 1 step forward. If NCLB is revoked = 2 steps back.

I pay $4000/yr in school property taxes. One of the highest rates in the nation. A disguntled school board member printed out the salaries of each and every teacher/admin in the entire school system. Over a 1/2 dozen "Phy-Ed" teachers making $100,000+ a year, not including perks.

Hey that mean that if I buy you a beer that It's your money :Beer :N

Thanks $100,000, Damn I wish I made that!! Where do teachers make $100,000 I want to move to that district!!

But anyway thanks a thousand!!! And on this I have now 2,000 post !!!

Hey that mean that if I buy you a beer that It's your money :Beer :N !!!No, it means I bought your last Mark! http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon10.gif That you trashed in less than a week. LOL.

Thanks $100,000, Damn I wish I made that!! Where do teachers make $100,000 I want to move to that district!Just move here. Out little city was just awarded the honor of having the highest taxes in a metropolitan area of 1.5 million people. Woohoo.

But anyway thanks a thousand!!! And on this I have now 2,000 post !!! Congrats. Now get busy on 3K.

No, it means I bought your last Mark! http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon10.gif That you trashed in less than a week. LOL.

Just move here. Out little city was just awarded the honor of having the highest taxes in a metropolitan area of 1.5 million people. Woohoo.

Congrats. Now get busy on 3K.


Welcome back how's the sunburn!!

Welcome back how's the sunburn!!

I'm golden brown. Thanks for asking. Sunny in Fort Myers. Cloudy in Tallahassee.

I'm golden brown. Thanks for asking. Sunny in Fort Myers. Cloudy in Tallahassee.

So are you done avoiding us in the Midwest Now!! :N

So are you done avoiding us in the Midwest Now!! :NNo!

No!


Fine! :N

Dogma vs. reality

By Thomas Sowell
July 22, 2005




There have been many bitter complaints from teachers and principals about the Bush administration's "No Child Left Behind" act -- and more specifically about having to "teach to the test" instead of doing whatever teachers and principals want to do. Now the results are in.
Not only have test scores in math and reading shown "solid gains" in the words of the New York Times, young black students have "significantly narrowed the gap" between themselves and white students. All this is based on official annual data from 28,000 schools across the country.
It is especially revealing that the young black students have made the largest gains while older minority students "scored as far behind whites as in previous decades."
In other words, the children whose education has taken place mostly since the No Child Left Behind Act show the greatest gains. For those whose education took place mostly under the old system, it was apparently too late to repair the damage. [snip]

Sounds like Mia is well on her way to growing up to become a good liberal activist.

That's bad news, Bryan, for those on the "Worst President Ever" bandwagon. (just a little friendly tease :N )

I agree with sending your kids to private schools 100%. I've never been to a publis school, and can say that for many reasons I am happy for it. Now, that's not to say that public education is bad, but the fact that the curriculum is based on what some guy/girl/board thinks will be good makes me never want to send my kids to one. The only problem is now where am I going to get the minimum $11,000 a year per kid to send them through school?? OI VE, it gives me a heart attack. But even at this price I think the value of a private education is greater than most public schools.

And as far as NCLB goes, I'm not sure if it works or not, but yes, atleast it is something. I'm tired of politicians and "journalists"(I really can't stand most journalists these days, even on FOX News and I'm a conservative republican) just crying about what's wrong and not offering any way of improving things. It's always easier to point the finger instead of lending a hand(hey that sounds good, did I get that from somewhere else?). Now, since I'm long out of school, I don't know much about NCLB, but it seems to me like dealing with education is like building a castle. If you have good building engineering, but the defenses suck, are you going to tear down the whole castle, or just the parts that suck and IMPROVE on them. I'm not defending Bush's program(which out of character for me, but like I said, I don't know anything about it) but I wish anybody who has something bad to say would just add in at the end of their diatribe some advice to make things better. And that goes for both sides of the fence, and for policies from the left and the right. No Political profiling with that statement.

PS. I love these political debates, they really add something to my day that I have been missing. You guys from both sides keep up the repartee, because it keeps me on my toes!! :soapbox: :dancefool

Bryan,

When are you going to put your boys in public school? I'm curious, how did you do on tests at that level? I tested extremely well yet I barely graduated from HS. What did the test prove? The tests only created a huge animosity between me and my parents because I was constantly chided to live up to the "Test" scores. I was interested in things mechanical and my parents thought I should follow into my father's fraternity at his alma matter and join him in his advertising business. Is that what you want for your children?

The real world will be their proving grounds. If they've only been taught to the test they will deficient in the skills necessary to prove themselves in the real world. I pay people to be creative and innovative and to be problem solvers. That's not what they're producing and that's the failure.

Also, IMHO, NCLB is what's dumbing down America. Things now have to be taught to the average level so that everyone gets to play. We've created an atmosphere of mediocrity by teaching to the test.

I have no children so I can not comment on todays schools other than the fact that I employ young people and I see an entire generation of vacant stares and no physical skills or strength.

I have no children Are you an only child as well? If so, that explains a lot. :N (Somebody stop me!!)http://www.cinescape.com/multimedia/Master_Site/Movies/Master_SiteArticle273023.jpg

:soapbox: And one more thing.(I know, I talk way too much, especially for a Newb who's majority of posts have been on the Politics Forum??? WTF?) This talk about people pointing the finger and not trying to help out reminds me of when Bill O'Reilly interviewd Arriana Huffington one time. She kept talking about how bad GITMO is, on and on and on. Now the need for GITMO can be argued over, I personally think that we absolutely need it. However, after Huffer made all these outlandish comments about the prison camp, Bill asks her what we should do about it, and what we should do if we close it down. Her reply?? "That's not my job to figure it out." WTF?? No one asked for your opinion in the first place lady. You can't just tell someone what's wrong(especially when you are in no way qualified to make that judgement) and tell others to fix it!!! IMHO, the right to freedom of speech(which she has, so you cna't stop her from saying this BS) should come with an amendment. If you talk half A$$, then you should talk NO A$$. Meaning if you don't have something positive to add, shut up. Just my, well it's really not even worth a South African rand(the cheapest currency in the world) let alone 2 cents, so I guess disregard all that I have said. :soapbox:

PS. Man, I always have to add a ps. Anyways, this was in no way directed at any members of this forum. I give love to all my LVC brothas!! :V :dancefool :dj:

Bryan,

When are you going to put your boys in public school? I'm curious, how did you do on tests at that level? I tested extremely well yet I barely graduated from HS. What did the test prove? The tests only created a huge animosity between me and my parents because I was constantly chided to live up to the "Test" scores. I was interested in things mechanical and my parents thought I should follow into my father's fraternity at his alma matter and join him in his advertising business. Is that what you want for your children?

The real world will be their proving grounds. If they've only been taught to the test they will deficient in the skills necessary to prove themselves in the real world. I pay people to be creative and innovative and to be problem solvers. That's not what they're producing and that's the failure.

Also, IMHO, NCLB is what's dumbing down America. Things now have to be taught to the average level so that everyone gets to play. We've created an atmosphere of mediocrity by teaching to the test.

I have no children so I can not comment on todays schools other than the fact that I employ young people and I see an entire generation of vacant stares and no physical skills or strength.

America was being dumbed down by outcome-based education decades before NCLB. Check the facts. There are numerous articles, statistics, and books on the subject.

I pay $4000/yr in school property taxes.

I guess my point of view is skewed too because I pay substantial property taxes (most of which goes to schools) and I have no children, but I don't bitch about it. I'd just like to see money wisely spent and IMHO 6 billion dollars could be better spent elsewhere within the schools.

And yes I agree that the SAT is appropriate for college entrance, but I think the teachers should be the judge of who passes of fails before then.

I think we should have a two-tiered system like Germany. I would have done so much better in a mechanical atmosphere rather than an academic one. Not every one can do every thing.

America was being dumbed down by outcome-based education decades before NCLB. Check the facts. There are numerous articles, statistics, and books on the subject.

Please enlighten me. I graduated in 1970. Did it start before then?

In grade and high school, all we need to be teaching are the basics. Reading, writing, and arithmetic. That's it. 8 hours/day.

Take a look how we compare in proficiency tests. We as a nation are something like 25th in the industrialized world.

Don't give me this 'we shouldn't be teaching to the test crap-o-la'. Let's start with the basics and make sure kids can read at their age level, and can add, subtract, multiple and divide so they can count their change after they eat at McDonalds.

Have you seen the types of questions they have on these exams now versus only several years ago.

Let's post up some of the tests. Then we can make a determination if we are going in the right direction or not.

Don't give me this 'we shouldn't be teaching to the test crap-o-la'. Let's start with the basics and make sure kids can read at their age level, and can add, subtract, multiple and divide so they can count their change after they eat at McDonalds.

I know we're one the same side, but when ranting about education, atleast check the spelling.......... :slam

Don't give me this 'we shouldn't be teaching to the test crap-o-la'. Let's start with the basics and make sure kids can read at their age level, and can add, subtract, multiply, and divide so they can count their change after they eat at McDonalds.

and what about the grammar too??? :ban




good times........





but I do agree with your point.

I know we're one the same side, but when ranting about education, atleast check the spelling..........Many times when people are quick to post a response, a little error is not really an issue is it? I'm speaking from experience here. When you start nit-picking someones grammar, it's a slippery slope that will come back to bite you in the booty. :Beer

I agree with sending your kids to private schools 100%. I've never been to a publis school, and can say that for many reasons I am happy for it.:dancefool

Dude,

Bad form.

I was making a joke because we're discussing education, and in his post he only mentioned mathematics, and not english or grammar, whilst making a grammar and spelling error. Just a joke man.

PS. KBOB, do you change MonsterMark's diapers too??

This stuff is all in good fun man. One of the first things I was told was to grow a thick skin. And for future reference, any comment I make to someone, while perhaps containing my true feelings about you, most of the time is made in jest. The only thing I take seriously on the internet is the PlayBoy website. :joke

Dude,

Bad form.

duely noted, but I still hate you because you own one of my fav cars, DUDE.

I don't think I've had so much fun on the internet in my life. I love the atmosphere around here!! Keep me real with posts like that Barry, everyone needs it!!

in grade and high school, all we need to be teaching are the basics. Reading, writing, and arithmetic.

I was making a joke because we're discussing education, and in his post he only mentioned mathematics, and not english or grammar, whilst making a grammar and spelling error. Just a joke man.

Looks to me like the 1st line of my post mentions "reading, writing, and arithmetic". Hmmmm.... Most people would ASSume that reading and writing would include english and grammar. Now, as far as my grammar goes, I am the farthest from being a literary expert. I admit it. If every post was an English paper I am sure I would see lots of 'F's. Hey, I hated English in school and it shows now later in life. That is just the way it goes. I guess you will need to learn to live with it because there is no way I'm going back to school. Add in the fact that I never studied a day in my life and those 2 factors seem to equal one grammatically challenged person.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon12.gif

I dont know it anyone will able to veiw it. but my son got President's Education Award for being in the top 2% of his grade.
Witch if funny cuz I was a C type of Kid.

.tif file (http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/bc/29d3be2/bc/jacksons/JACKSONSPRESIDENTALAWARD.tif?BCefY4CBwTNm25x5)

I've seen the work they make kid's now a dayz , it's a lot more harder than in my day.

Tell Jackson congrats on behalf of the LvC.

Please enlighten me. I graduated in 1970. Did it start before then?

Yep.

I've seen the work they make kid's now a dayz , it's a lot more harder than in my day.

Funny. I've seen the exact opposite. First hand.

Many times when people are quick to post a response, a little error is not really an issue is it? I'm speaking from experience here. When you start nit-picking someones grammar, it's a slippery slope that will come back to bite you in the booty. :Beer

We're not really supposed to pick on any one person's spelling. The reason is that it would start an avalanche that would prevent any meaningful dialogue from ensuing. Almost everybody would be an easy target.

I have been on forums where people get flamed for asking simple questions. This is actually a fairly civil place to hang out.

I think Bryan was observing in general to make a point about education.

Funny. I've seen the exact opposite. First hand.


I will look on my other computer for some of his reports , thier quite inpressive.
this kids is doing home work from 4:30pm till 10-11 pm almost every nite. He even has math home work for the summer.
Almost never watches kids show , he likes CSI , reno 911,
Kenny Vs Spenny (http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2438741?htv=12) , Nascar

he was kinda pissed at me cuz I didn't tell him that I was buying the Mark VIII. But he loves it now, but best of all he love helping me work on the car.

YET my older son I never see him doing homework, He's in all AP classes but he gets b's and c's

Thanks MonsterMark , but he'd kick my ass if he knew I was talking about him on the internet.

PS. KBOB, do you change MonsterMark's diapers too??No, I'm not licensed to use a bull dozer and I lack the appropriate haz-mat training. (sorry Bryan, he gave it to me and I had to take it)

:Beer

No, I'm not licensed to use a bull dozer and I lack the appropriate haz-mat training.:bowrofl: :bowrofl: :bowrofl:

I will look on my other computer for some of his reports , thier quite inpressive.
this kids is doing home work from 4:30pm till 10-11 pm almost every nite. He even has math home work for the summer.

Wow. That IS a lot of work. What grade's he in?

Ignorance anyone who Supports NCLB!

Sorry, say what you want but you have no clue on this. But if it makes you feel smarter, I'll just sit back and watch the ignorance!

Sorry You haven't a clue!

Ignorance anyone who Supports NCLB!

Sorry, say what you want but you have no clue on this. But if it makes you feel smarter, I'll just sit back and watch the ignorance!

Sorry You haven't a clue!Sorry Rich, I know this is right up your alley but it is the liberals in coersion with the teacher's unions that has systematically destroyed the public educational system in this country. Why do you think school choice is making such huge strides all around the country.

You are too close to the forest to see the trees. You need to visit a religious school and see the other side of the educational system, the side that is working.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon7.gif

Sorry Rich, I know this is right up your alley but it is the liberals in coersion with the teacher's unions that has systematically destroyed the public educational system in this country. Why do you think school choice is making such huge strides all around the country.

You are too close to the forest to see the trees. You need to visit a religious school and see the other side of the educational system, the side that is working.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon7.gif


I went to Parochial K-12 system... So I do know!! Also a Christian College..

Bryan you have to get way from this liberal generalization you make and get closer to the center...

You use the same blame every time liberal liberal liberal... it doesn't work... Neither side works when you are pointing fingers and that seems to be all that each side does...Those in the middle are getting sick of it..


If you were inside the School system you would see what NCLB doesn't do... Even the administrator don't like it because it doesn't work... And the administrators are usually as far right as you are...

You use the same blame every time liberal liberal liberal... it doesn't work... Neither side works when you are pointing fingers and that seems to be all that each side does...Those in the middle are getting sick of it..

If you were inside the School system you would see what NCLB doesn't do... Even the administrator don't like it because it doesn't work... And the administrators are usually as far right as you are...

:eek: What???!!! I use the liberal blame game because the liberals have been in charge of our educational system for 50 years? That's why. Our high schools and colleges are infested with them. And to say that administrators are far right! Where. I don't know any far right administrators (conservatives) that advocate spending and spending and spending, instead of teaching and teaching and teaching. And it certainly doesn't surprise me that teachers (public) don't embrace NCLB. After all, these same teachers are now being held to a higher standard. Heck, they may even have to teach kids something. Imagine that. Forcing teachers to teach reading, writing, math, and science. You know the crap that has been taught. All social experiments. Get the kids back in the classroom. Put a school uniform on them. Crack-em upside the head when they get out of line. Call their mommies and daddies and make the parents responsible for their kids education. Start there. Right now public schools are nothing more than a glorified child-care centers. Let's get back to the basics.

I totally agree with the last part but I disagree that the tests help raise the level of education. I believe it lowers the average because the teachers are forced to teach to the average. How does that help? It seems to me to raise the lower level and lower the upper level students. I believe that was the young ladie's complaint.

Surely you can see the logic in that. IMHO, In effect, the tests are creating better educated McDonald's workers and hampering our best and brightest. Truly, that's where we need to focus, wouldn't you agree? Isn't that the level that made America what it is?

I totally agree with the last part but I disagree that the tests help raise the level of education. I believe it lowers the average because the teachers are forced to teach to the average. How does that help? It seems to me to raise the lower level and lower the upper level students. I believe that was the young ladie's complaint.

Surely you can see the logic in that. IMHO, In effect, the tests are creating better educated McDonald's workers and hampering our best and brightest. Truly, that's where we need to focus, wouldn't you agree?

No I don't.

<Rant On> I think every kid is 'entitled' to be able to read and write. Remember when we stopped giving out A's,B's,C's,D's and F's because we didn't want to hurt little Johhnys feelings? And now we don't keep score in games because we don't want the kids to feel like losers.? I had to laugh last year when a parent asked what the final score was in a 4th grade baseball game. No parent had a clue because nobody was keeping score. But all the KIDS KNEW. The kids that won blurted it out. We are systematically destroying what made this country great. Competition did it. Competition in school. Competition in grades. Competition in having the best looking girl friend. Competition in having the highest gpa. It taught us how to compete in life. Now every other country is teaching their kids to compete. They read, write, add and subtract a hell of a lot better than our kids do so that when our kids get out into the real world, they can't compete and will end up living at mommies and daddies house until they are 50! Is that what we want? The smart kids will do just fine. They'll get there on their own. I worry about the kids that can't make change or read the newspaper. Instead of being productive members of society, they become a drag on it. And guess which political party they will give life-long support to?

<Rant Off>

How are the smart kids going to excell if the material isn't presented. The problem is that there isn't time to teach the important stuff. How is a bright kid in a poor environment going to excell if the opportunity isn't there.

Bryan,

Hypothetically, let's say two of your boys were twins. One is exceptionally gifted and the other is below average intelligence. They are in the same grade and in the same classroom. The teacher, by mandate, has to teach the specifics of a test that 95% of all children have to take. The test is geared toward the average student.

Is it fair to the bright son that the teacher has to spend a disproportional amount of time with the dumb son? That's really what this all boils down to.