I origianlly did not want to swap out my factory head unit. Im thinking about putting a new head untit in along with all new door speakers, one 10" sub, 4 channel amp.

Is there different types of dash kits? I did not want to take out the stock HU because it looks good. But if i can get a nice dash kit i probably wouldnt mind.


Chris

I origianlly did not want to swap out my factory head unit. Im thinking about putting a new head untit in along with all new door speakers, one 10" sub, 4 channel amp.

Is there different types of dash kits? I did not want to take out the stock HU because it looks good. But if i can get a nice dash kit i probably wouldnt mind.


Chris

Tell me more on your setup because with 4 door speakers and a sub i don't think a 4 channel amp will be sufficient. I would assume you would bridge two channels for your sub then your left with only two channgels front and rear which is fine but you will need to be careful because each channel will have to supply 2 speakers, and when wired you could have too little impedance and could harm your amp. Please let me know what you want and i can help with a solution. If you do stick with that setup idea a suggestion is that most aftermarket HUs are 50w x 4 and if that is plenty of power for you you could probably power front speakers with HU and rear speakers and sub with amp. I posted pics of my dash kit on this thread. I have seen it in Silver too and also people have peinted it and people have put vynal over it. http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=5042

I was actually thinking of amping front components and sub and letting 5x7s run off the HU.
From what I understand, you want most the high/mid sound comming from the front.

The kit doesnt look bad. Is that a certain type of dash kit or will I end up with one like that regardless. That one looks much better than the one that was in my chevy.

Chris

well i can recommend a five channel amp that would be perfect for the application. for running two sets of mids and highs and 1 subwoofer built into one amp. The jl 500/5 i think would be just right. especially if your trying to just get one amp installed not two. pretty reasonable on ebay would recommend buy new though but i am guessing they are pretty expensive. let me know what you plan on getting. I'm currently working on a pretty big install on my ol' lincoln ls. Just now dynamatting the bottom and the doors and fenders right now.. Let me tell ya now .. if you plan on racing this car don't put dynamat in cause you'll add at least an extra 100 pounds minimum this stuff is pretty heavy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?viewItem&category=4950&item=5752559180&rd=1

I actually have a pretty good 4ch amp from my old car.
Specs
RMS Power at 2 Ohms 80 W x 4
RMS Power at 4 Ohms 65 W x 4

If i were to amp the fronts and 1 10" sub (dual 4 ohm), how would that work?

Would i be giving the sub 65 or 130 watts?


Chris

well if the amp is bridgeable it usually doubles the power to just one. so instead of being 65 X 2 it becomes 130 x 1. at 4 ohms.

The sub side of the amp would have to be run as one of the following:
-2ohm mono
-8ohm mono
-4ohm stereo

A dual 4 ohm sub cannot be wired to an amp at 4 ohm mono.
Most amps can handle the 2 ohm mono route but it really depends on the specs of the amp as to the best way to do it.

jdsimons is right though, your probably looking somewere in the 120 to 140 watt range, but if your amp won't handle a 2 ohm mono load it will overheat and we all know that isn't good.

I've run plenty of four channels on front and sub setups and they sounded great as long as you didn't try to overdrive the bass.

if you change your HU it would be way better 'cause you can add rca wires to your sub and with a plug replacement you can use your existing speaker wires and factory amp for your speakers and dedicate that other amp bridged for the subs as for your HU most aftermarkets fit perfectly in the opening

oh sorry bout that didn't see you had a dual voice coil there. well unless you got lucky and own a dual 8 ohm sub i wouldn't recommend running a 2 ohm bridged amp unless it was made to do it. otherwise you'll be lucky to get 5 minutes of music enjoyment out of it. lol

I would actually amp the rears. HUs do better powering higher frequencies because of their sound logic and also built in qualizers. lower frequencies also consume more power.

Your going to want to wire your sub in series to give a 8 Ohm impedance. Otherwise your impedance will be 2 ohm in parallel and you risk overheating your amp which can break it. Dynamat is not really necessary with 1 10" woofer, the most you will need is to pad the back of your license plate.

A more complicated way to get a better output would be to wire each VC to a channel on the amp. Both channels MUST be tuned exactly the same way, And the channels should be set to mono.

Most quality amps will perform well with a greater load. Meaning wiring in parallel and running at 2 ohms would work. Quality amps will also have a protection circuit on them. When a load gets too high your protection light will turn on and the amp will stop working until it cools down. And if too much of a load is the ultimate problem then it will simply burn your fuse. Who is the amp made by and what model is it.

I say get a 4 channel amp for the door speakers, and a mono sub amp. Wire the sub in parallel for a 2 ohm load, and you're good to go.

The JL 500/5 is a good idea as well, one amp for all speakers and sub. JL makes sweet audio components. My friend's got a 1000/1, 300/4, 2 10 W7's, JL components up front, and it sounds awesome.

I like JL's amps too, plenty of power without a lot of distortion. Another nice thing about them is they aren't big power hogs, meaning for the power you get they don't strain the vehicles charging system as much as other amps.

I personally, like to stay away from five channel amps. It's just my opinion.
Most five channels are for audiophile purposes only with just enough sub power to give you the bottom end needed for a full sound.
I don't listen to a great deal of bass heavy music, but if I'm going to spend the money and trunk room for a sub set up, I want to feel it.
For the price of a quality 5 channel you can purchase a 4 channel and sub amp with more power.
Plus you get the advantage of two heat sinks.

I like JL's amps too, plenty of power without a lot of distortion. Another nice thing about them is they aren't big power hogs, meaning for the power you get they don't strain the vehicles charging system as much as other amps.

I personally, like to stay away from five channel amps. It's just my opinion.
Most five channels are for audiophile purposes only with just enough sub power to give you the bottom end needed for a full sound.
I don't listen to a great deal of bass heavy music, but if I'm going to spend the money and trunk room for a sub set up, I want to feel it.
For the price of a quality 5 channel you can purchase a 4 channel and sub amp with more power.
Plus you get the advantage of two heat sinks.

JL audio has an amazing sound...if your pockets are deep, but for what its worth in my opion its complete crap. 5 channel amps are specifically made for 4 speakers 1 sub applications so you might have just has bad experience with crossovers in the past because 5 channel amps are great. As far as the charging system in your car goes just use the Db formula to figure out the strain on your car. dB = 10 log (P1/P2). Plug in the DB gain of the amp, then plug in the output wattage, and work out the math and you will be givin the value of strain the amp will put on your car. And also remember some amps like to advertize their power outputs in Peak to peak values. To figure the Root Means Squared (RMS) You will devide the PP value in half and multiply it by .707. And if once you get some values assume the Power in is 13 volts and figure current then you will be able to see exactly how much strain your putting on your charging system.

I know there are a lot of quality 5 channel amps out there that perform great I’m sure. I sold Alpine, PPI, Fosgate, Sony, Pioneer, JL, Autoteck, and a few more but I can't remember right now.
I just don’t like to have all my apples in one basket. The customers that I sold five channels to just didn’t like their systems as much once they realized that they wanted more bass but couldn’t get it w/out buying a new amp and driving around with that 5th channel just disconnected.
Maybe my clientell just wasn't the type for 5 channels.

I’ve never heard of anything like that equation, but it really sounds interesting.
Could you show it to me as a 1+2=3? I’m trying to understand but I think I need more sleep.
Could that equation account for the power requirements for my Linear Power 2.2’s that are rated at 12.5 watts by two (they rate there amps at 10v), but put out well over three hundred at a four ohm load on a 16v system.

What about the average POS Pioneer at CCity that says it puts out 600 watts at 4 ohm mono?

I know for a fact that my Linear’s will put the smack down on that POS even at 14v.

I’m not sure that this is what your formula is for, but if it is, it sound like something I want to learn. :zgreenbou

I didn't read all of every post, not sure if this has been said....

HU's are 50x4 max, and most are around 15 watts RMS which will not do you a whole lot of good.

I think you are better off getting a 5 channel, a 4 and a mono, or running the rears off the HU, and amping the fronts.

dB = 10 log (P1/P2)

Say your amp is a 30 DB gain and outputs 500 watts.... 30db = 10 log 500/Pin(Power input)

First you need to isolate the logarithm so devide both sides of equasion by 10... 3db = log 500/Pin

The get rid of the log with Antilog (10^x) on both sides of the equasion... 1000 = 500/Pin

Then finish the equation 500/1000 = Pin... Pin = ~.5 watts input..

I think my math is right i just woke up and its saturday which means no school. my brain is shut down

I'm not sure I agree with your equation or logic on this one... You're telling me that your amp that produces 500 watts output only consumes a half watt?

There's Norfolk 'n Waypal...

There are several ways of getting the "strain" on your electrical system. I'm assuming you're most interested in the current draw, since that relates to the fuse sizing. The amp itself is not 100% efficient, none are. I think a reasonable number for a class AB amplifier is 85%, if you know what the rating of your amp is, post it cause I'm thinking back 10 years to my Punch 100 iX... anyway, if the amp is 85% eff, you need to add 15% percent to the power output to make it work. This makes up for the losses in the power supply, heat, and so on... So for simple math, say your amp is 100 watt, add 15% or 15 watt, now you have 115 watt. P=IV, so solving for I we have I=P/V. Now the lower the voltage, the more current it will draw, so pick a middle of the road number, 13 volts, you have 115 / 13 or 8.84 amps per channel, or 17.68 amps for a two channel amp at 100 watt per channel.

Your amp at 500 watt, assuming the same eff of 15% would draw 44 amps, into a single load of 500 watts, with a supply voltage of 13 volts. I don't have a wire guide handy, but for 44 amps at the nominal 12 volt level, you're looking at some pretty stout wire. Thankfully for us, the amp and the battery in the trunk make our lives a lot easier!

whatsupadrian..
Is that a certain type of dash kit or will I end up with one like that regardless?


Anyone know of some good headunits from last year? Maybe 2003-2004. What do all you have??

I am looking for an mp3 cd player that has 2 RCA outs and an input for a portable mp3 player. Im trying to see if i can find a new headunit a little cheaper than current models.


Chris

dB = 10 log (P1/P2)

Say your amp is a 30 DB gain and outputs 500 watts.... 30db = 10 log 500/Pin(Power input)

First you need to isolate the logarithm so devide both sides of equasion by 10... 3db = log 500/Pin

The get rid of the log with Antilog (10^x) on both sides of the equasion... 1000 = 500/Pin

Then finish the equation 500/1000 = Pin... Pin = ~.5 watts input..

I think my math is right i just woke up and its saturday which means no school. my brain is shut down

I had forgoten why I dropped Cal2 and changed my major to Accounting, but tell me if I'm wrong in my assumptions.

This equation doesn't differentiate between the $900 Linear and the $150 Pioneer if they're both rated 500w even though there is really no comparison on the output.

It sounds like your taking the amp maker's claim of output wattage as a fact.

The equation doesn't seem to account for the difference between high voltage and high current amps either.

I had forgoten why I dropped Cal2 and changed my major to Accounting, but tell me if I'm wrong in my assumptions.

This equation doesn't differentiate between the $900 Linear and the $150 Pioneer if they're both rated 500w even though there is really no comparison on the output.

It sounds like your taking the amp maker's claim of output wattage as a fact.

The equation doesn't seem to account for the difference between high voltage and high current amps either.

The formula will only work if you benchmark the amps and figure out actual wattage output. But you would have to assume that the manufacturer's db gain ratio is real otherwise the formula is useless.

To answer jcavz24x question quickly there the dash kits only come in that style as far as i know. And i have only seen them in Black and Silver. And HUs are so hard to recommend. Some people prefer dolphins and racecars being displayed on their units and some people prefer 4v preoutputs. Only you can some but some good brands to consider are Pioneer, Eclipse, Alpine, Kenwood, and JVC. A mobile audio rule of thumb is, you get what you pay for. With the exception of Sony and JL. Also newer models are good for people like you because when they are released the old new modles drop in price. :)

kleetus,
The numbers i used i pulled out of my a$$ as an example. i am talkin bels which is a compairison between two powers. To actiallyl figure out how much strain is put on the battery depends on many factors. For one you need to know what the current drain of the amp is, which would be the deciding factor on how efficient the amp is. But one big thing to consider is that every amp operates on a wide range, meaning it all depends on how loud you play it :). But assuming the maximum....

As far as car batteries are concerned...

batteries are rated by amp-hours. your amplifier draws so much power (Voltage * Current). Power is measured in watts, however we can use amps to measure power with an assumed voltage of 12V. ie, P/12V = amps
kinda funny how they measure power in amps even though it's really watts, but go figure

so in any case, a 12 amp hour battery can supply 12 watts for an hour, or 6 watts for 2 hours, or 3 watts for 4 hours, ect.

We will use this amp as an example... http://jlaudio.com/amps/5001.html

now assuming your amp runs on 12V, you measure the current that your car amp draws, and the amp-hour rating on the battery tells you how many hours the battery can supply that amount of current
lets assume the amt of power driven to the speakers is the power consumed by the amplifier, big simplification, I know.
I think 500 W rms would be 250 W DC. 250 W / 12V = 2A. lets say the battery is 450 amp-hours. 450 / 2 = ~22.5 hours
That's how long the amp would work straight off the battery assuming battery is fully charged...

Also this is all assuming perfect power transfer, my conversion to DC watts was correct, and that the max power output listed is the amount of power drained by the amp.

Ok lets use my amp as an example... Its a mark antony 3000D that is rated to output 3kW at 2 ohms.. It ran for about 10-15 mins before it drained the battery...

3000 W / 12 V = 250 amps
450 Amp-hours / 250 amps = ~2 hour
now lets calculate how many amp-hours my battery is if it only gets 10-15 mins...
15 mins ~ 0.25 hrs
so x amp-hours / 250 amps ~= 0.25 hrs
x = 62.5 amp hours
also, this is only a first order approximation of battery life. the rate of discharge is also a factor, ie, discharge a battery quickly, get a shorter lifespan... or some other non-linear fun... Wow my battery sucks lol.
But also a headunit was running and whatever else drains power then the ignition key is on... here are some facts...

headlights 10-15 A
parking lights 3-5 A
interior light 1-2 A
radio 1.5 A
air conditioner 15-30 A

Now on a charging system.. Is and amp is putting out 200 W to the speaker, nothing can change that... but the amount of power they use internally is greater, ie, you lose power simply by the act of amplification. that's one reason amplifiers generate heat, heat is energy lost, and therefore power lost. a more efficient amplifier will lose less power internally. It's like machines... they can give you mechanical advantage and make lifting heavy objects with one hand a breeze, but they also consume more energy via frictional losses. Many things to consider here... So if you see an amp with internal cooling fans, then its probably not power efficient, safe and probably has a nice DB ratio but still not very efficient.

Sorry for suck a long post i tried to touch on a lot of bases.

All i need is a head unit that plays mp3s, has 2 RCA outs and an input for a portable mp3 player. I am looking for the older models that have dropped in price.

Let me make the question easier...
Anyone know any pioneer or alpine models?? or have one from last year that they can give me a model # on?
If i can get enough replies i can search them all and decide on my own which one i get


Chris

If you are getting one that plays mp3's why do you want it to have an input for a portable mp3 player?

I have 12,000 songs..then again..i might be able to fit 50 cds in my arm rest. i would probably still get one without an input.

I have 12,000 songs..then again..i might be able to fit 50 cds in my arm rest. i would probably still get one without an input.
the audio input is going to be the only thing that is rare. look for any pioneer model that ends in MP

It is going to be difficult to find one that has an input, like said above.

I have a Pioneer Premier HU that I used for about 2 months in my truck before I got the LS that I'm getting ready to sell if you are interested. I really liked this HU. When you played an mp3/wma disc you could easily pick a folder you wanted, then select a song. So instead of searching through 200 songs for one you want, I would browse the folder till i found the right artist/album, then look through 15 songs to find the right one. It has text labels for everything which makes it nice. There's some info below.

Main features...
4 x 22 watts RMS
4 x 50 watts Peak
Detachable, fold-down face
Plays MP3, WMA, CD-R and CD-R/W.
Displays MP3 and WMA titles
Blue and white display
MOSFET50 internal amp
Supertuner IIID
18 FM/6 AM presets
Level Indicator
Easy EQ
3 band parametric equalizer
Loudness
Source level adjustment
Front and rear and subwoofer preamp outputs
Wireless remote
Clock

http://pioneerelectronics.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_4041_64485157_tab=B,00.html?compName=PNA_P roductDetailComponent

The formula will only work if you benchmark the amps and figure out actual wattage output. But you would have to assume that the manufacturer's db gain ratio is real otherwise the formula is useless.
Thanks for the info, but that was always my problem as an Installer/Sales/Manager of an audio store. Some electronics are under rated some are over rated and some are just BS.
How do you explain to the person looking at the Pioneer that says it puts out 1200w that they'll get more sound from the MTX which only boasts 150x2?
All else equal, the only answer is ask someone who has installed both.
Thats what I was getting at when I said that the JL amp doesn't create as much strain on the electrical system as other amps of its size.
I'm also sure there is an efficency issue at work.

Just a note: I've never owned a JL just installed a few dozen, but from what I've seen they perform better than most.

Thanks for the info, but that was always my problem as an Installer/Sales/Manager of an audio store. Some electronics are under rated some are over rated and some are just BS.
How do you explain to the person looking at the Pioneer that says it puts out 1200w that they'll get more sound from the MTX which only boasts 150x2?
All else equal, the only answer is ask someone who has installed both.
Thats what I was getting at when I said that the JL amp doesn't create as much strain on the electrical system as other amps of its size.
I'm also sure there is an efficency issue at work.

Just a note: I've never owned a JL just installed a few dozen, but from what I've seen they perform better than most.

I used to be an installer aswell but had to start college so i needed a graveyard shift job. JL has a nice line of equipment that is overpriced and the reason is because of the name. All the companies that sell "american made" products boost price and say they are of better quality when they are just made in different countries, technology isn't just an american thing, its worldwide. Weather its in an assembly line in korea(crossfire) or an assembly line is florida(jl). The only acception to this IMO would be companies like Resonant Engineering which actually have techs hand building these speakers, and labs building the amps.

I run 3 12" Clif Design subs. They are made by the same people that make, Audiobahn, MA Audio, which are well known. Why do i run them? Because they only cost me $65 bucks each because i know the nephew of the owner of the companies, who sells them on his own.The are louder then my cousins 4 10w6s and they sound better at the higher volume. I been running them for about 14 months now and at 1kw each sub as a daily driver i know i am going to have to replace them soon. Do you think if i ran 1kw to a 12w6 for 14 months as a daily driver i would need to replace it soon also? Thats the ultimate question for people in my situation. If i spent $350 a sub for the JLs and paid lets say $125 for my Clif Designs are the JLs going to outpreform my subs by 150%. It really peeves me when i go to a car show and a Civic pops his trunk and people stand around in AWE at his two 13.5 W 7s playing some YinYangTwins. At that point i wish someone with a single DD9515 pull next to him and plays Michael Jackson's Beat It and resonates ever object in the civig and boggs down his JLs. But at this point i am almost tempted to buy someJLs only because then people would think i had a quality system.

I feel your pain brother. :Beer
I sold Cliff in the mid to late 90's and that was some quality stuff, but not well known.

Like I said, I have never owned JL audio equipment. I was speaking from an installers point of view. I don't remember the last time I paid retail for equip. I liked the fact that the customer was happy with the product.

For my own equip. I went with four linear 2.2's, Quart 3 way components and I'm in the process of looking for new subs. The six MTX 15's just don't want to fit in my LS. I'm probably only going to use 2 of the amps.

Now, none of the equip. is installed yet. It's tax season and I won't have time till the end of April.

Let me make the question easier...
Anyone know any pioneer or alpine models?? or have one from last year that they can give me a model # on?
If i can get enough replies i can search them all and decide on my own which one i get
Chris

I liked my Alpine 9807 which was replaced by the 9827 last year. I had an external amp, so I wasn't worried about getting the high powered unit. It has the RCA outs you are needing, including SUB outs which allow you to adjust everything from the HU and has the ability for line-in, which I used for my XM Roady and has the MP3/WMA capability. The other great thing about it was how well the display worked in the middle of the day and night! It is not an expensive unit.

I sold it with my truck and miss it. :(