:feedback :feedback http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8180/dynorepairzl4.jpg :give :give

The power is ok I guess... Should I do a compression test? I have a few very small leaks in my exhaust. 20% driveline loss on stock 280 would be 224 at the wheels. But thats a brand new car, I guess with age I should lose a bit of HP. But if something needs repair, that I could repair I would like to find that missing HP.

What missing horsepower?

Looks about right to me....

I scoured the searches, I saw cars with similar mods, making a bit more hp NA.

I've read that 220whp is what a stock viii should put down?

what gear did they make the pull in?

what is the deal with the AF informatin?

is the dotted line the first run and the solid line the second run.. or did they not have the sensor in the tailpipe.

solid line is flat line 11-1...second one looks dangerously lean if that indeed IS the AF trace

I saw cars with similar mods, making a bit more hp NA.

out of your expansive mod list, please tell me which ones you actually believe "make more HP"?

"Edelbrock high volume high flow job" = 0 HP

160 degree T stat = 6 hp

custom cold air = MINUS 12 HP due to hot air ingestion, especially on a dyno
the maf adapter has the filter too close to the maf and upsets the linear air flow thru the maf.

The LMS chip is probably 10-20HP but you have that hot air intake that negates 10 of those HP..
which is why with your HUGE mod list you net 9HP and 10ftlbs of torque

Since your dynoing the car..
Put the stock intake, maf and air box back on the car and go check the numbers.
I'll bet you'll get some of your lost HP back.

KustomizingKid is right, your HP is right about the stock mark 8 average

my intake is in the fender by the tire, the maf is stock

what is the deal with the AF informatin?

is the dotted line the first run and the solid line the second run.. or did they not have the sensor in the tailpipe.

solid line is flat line 11-1...second one looks dangerously lean if that indeed IS the AF trace

they didn't put the sniffer on the tp. not sure why?

out of your expansive mod list, please tell me which ones you actually believe "make more HP"?

"Edelbrock high volume high flow job" = 0 HP

160 degree T stat = 6 hp

custom cold air = MINUS 12 HP due to hot air ingestion, especially on a dyno
the maf adapter has the filter too close to the maf and upsets the linear air flow thru the maf.

The LMS chip is probably 10-20HP but you have that hot air intake that negates 10 of those HP..
which is why with your HUGE mod list you net 9HP and 10ftlbs of torque

Since your dynoing the car..
Put the stock intake, maf and air box back on the car and go check the numbers.
I'll bet you'll get some of your lost HP back.

KustomizingKid is right, your HP is right about the stock mark 8 average


it was freezing outside look at the temp, i dont think it was getting hot air, but my intake setup may do someting to the linear whatever cuz it curves to go into the fender

what gear did they make the pull in?

im assuming third

14.79@94.69 (http://www.dragtimes.com/horsepower-et-trap-speed-calculator.php?et=14.79&trap=94.69&weight=4070&submitButtonName=Calculate+Horsepower+Estimate)

this is the data from my dragstrip run last night.

says my car made 259@ flywheel

less 20% for drivetrain loss puts it right at 200RWHP.. right where a stock second gen mark 8 should be....stone stock, sct tuned by ME will out run your modded first gen.

just the ET differences between your car and my car should really REALLY make you want to re-evaluate your mod list.

you ran..what... 15.sumthin? (that's 3-4 car lengths slower than my turd)

im assuming third

how did they prevent your car from downshifting on the dyno if they ran it in 3rd?

you shouldn't assume anything.

if they pulled the car in third, they had to get up to about 70MPH before they could "mat it" and not have it downshift.

if they made the pull in 2nd gear your numbers are actually about 20% less than what the dyno sheet says.

If they made the first pull in 3rd and had problems with it downshifting..then made the second pull in 2nd.. THERE is the 9HP difference..right there.

When providing data, or asking for feedback you simply cannot ASSUME anything.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8686/sideviewwn7.jpg

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4231/intakenj0.jpg

I removed the air compressor and bracket.

i ran a :q:q:q:q time because i have :q:q:q:q tires

re evaluate my mod list? to what? put a stock airbox back in?

it was freezing outside look at the temp, i dont think it was getting hot air, but my intake setup may do someting to the linear whatever cuz it curves to go into the fender

bends before the maf do NOT promote linear air flow..sorry.

look..

you asked for feedback, I'm giving you that feedback.

you can "listen to someone who goes faster with less mods".. or you can continue to try and "justify" these BS mods.

my 95 {better comparison to your car) with LESS gear, no intake mods went nearly over a FULL SECOND faster than your car...
and my car had TWICE the mileage than your car.

I've been trying to get you to listen, but you would rather sink your money into "Internet HYPE" mods and GO SLOW..rather than have a stock air box and actually have a quick car.

You should take the references to LMS out of your sig file until you get your car to "run right"..
9 HP gain from an LMS chip is the equivelent of an "ANTI-LMS commercial".

seriously

how did they prevent your car from downshifting on the dyno if they ran it in 3rd?

you shouldn't assume anything.

if they pulled the car in third, they had to get up to about 70MPH before they could "mat it" and not have it downshift.

if they made the pull in 2nd gear your numbers are actually about 20% less than what the dyno sheet says.

If they made the first pull in 3rd and had problems with it downshifting..then made the second pull in 2nd.. THERE is the 9HP difference..right there.

When providing data, or asking for feedback you simply cannot ASSUME anything.


he didn't gate shift it, look at the rev limits on the dynosheet. he put it in D... drove 1st and 2nd. Look at the different rev limits.... not sure if it was in 2nd or third but I do know that I clearly made gains on the chip.

The 209 whp with no tune, well that kinda sucks imo, but i dont have maf adapter intake as you stated, just wanted to correct that. It's not a hot air intake either.

The best gain clearly is the chip. No tune, im going to assume the exhaust did the most...

back when you first got this car.. I STRESSED the fact that you NEED a "baseline" Dyno pull or Dragstrip pass.

you ignored this very important information.

you waited until you did many things to the car before you took it to the track or bothered with a dyno pull.

you put alot of money into your car, and have this "idea" of how much HP you were expecting... and the DYNO gave you much less... as did the dragstrip.

Since you have NO baseline to judge your mods against, you have little or no good data to help evaluate your mods.. you've based ALL of them on what somone on the "internet said".. you even "SEARCHED".

Had you gotten a baseline.. and retested the car with your HOT AIR INTAKE..you quickly would have seen this mod actually hurt your cars performance.

If you had ANY data to support your "THEORY" you might have a leg to stand on.

HINT: ubercool long list of useless mods..does not make a fast car.

bends before the maf do NOT promote linear air flow..sorry.

look..

you asked for feedback, I'm giving you that feedback.

you can "listen to someone who goes faster with less mods".. or you can continue to try and "justify" these BS mods.

my 95 {better comparison to your car) with LESS gear, no intake mods went nearly over a FULL SECOND faster than your car...
and my car had TWICE the mileage than your car.

I've been trying to get you to listen, but you would rather sink your money into "Internet HYPE" mods and GO SLOW..rather than have a stock air box and actually have a quick car.

You should take the references to LMS out of your sig file until you get your car to "run right"..
9 HP gain from an LMS chip is the equivelent of an "ANTI-LMS commercial".

seriously

I think thats great for NA! look at the torque.... and my drag times sucked because I have crap tires. so good for your drag times.

sink my money into internet hype? what cuz i have a custom intake that i did myself? everything else is pretty standard

back when you first got this car.. I STRESSED the fact that you NEED a "baseline" Dyno pull or Dragstrip pass.

you ignored this very important information.

you waited until you did many things to the car before you took it to the track or bothered with a dyno pull.

you put alot of money into your car, and have this "idea" of how much HP you were expecting... and the DYNO gave you much less... as did the dragstrip.

Since you have NO baseline to judge your mods against, you have little or no good data to help evaluate your mods.. you've based ALL of them on what somone on the "internet said".. you even "SEARCHED".

Had you gotten a baseline.. and retested the car with your HOT AIR INTAKE..you quickly would have seen this mod actually hurt your cars performance.

If you had ANY data to support your "THEORY" you might have a leg to stand on.

HINT: ubercool long list of useless mods..does not make a fast car.

ubercool long list? i list the things ive done to keep track of stuff. So lets agree to disagree, ill put the stock airbox back, im making 220whp/ 229 whp chipped?

what else are you bitching about? besides my intake? what advice?

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8686/sideviewwn7.jpg

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4231/intakenj0.jpg

I removed the air compressor and bracket.

how is this a hot air intake? when its clearly out of the engine bay?

"You can expect in the 93-95 models a solid gain of 12-14 RWHP" well i got 9, -3 there might be some more variables that im missing 3-5 hp. This is on a stock mark btw im assuming. I am very satisfied what was promised, and dyno shows delivery. We also did two runs right in a row.

A.L., Why not get the LMS MAF next ?

When I get my taxes, I'm driving to LMS for his MAF, Chip and Exhaust System. That's it for me and engine mods. My 94 will then be fast enough for me at my age I guess....

bends before maf= bad

what am I bitching about?
your incessant asking for some kind of justification.
in your own mind you have some FAST CAR.
in reality it's a TURD.

People try to help.. you argue with them.

ENJOY DRIVING A TURD...that's all I'm saying.

you went to the track with Crappy tires and ran crappy times
you went to the dyno with crappy mods and got crappy results.

noticing a pattern here?

fukit...I tried this before. you wouldn't listen and you've got a turd.

now I'm pissing against the wind..
because you are in "denial about your crappy mods".

enjoy being slow, until you are ready to listen to someone who has far more experience than yourself.

YOUR MODS ARE CRAP.
Put the damned thing as near to stock as you can get it..THEN start over.

DO PROPER DATA COLLECTION.
DONT BE STUPID AND LISTEN.

there.... you have a goal now.. LEARN SOMETHING AND STOP BEING STUPID.

Geno@LMS cringes everytime he sees your sig file.

I guess with age I should lose a bit of HP. .

my 95 with 350,000 miles made 238HP and 246 Tourqe

my 95 with 350,000 miles made 238HP and 246 Tourqe

My 95 with 156,000 miles makes Integra owners piss themselves at redlights:)

if you don't want to listen to XLR (yes he is a bit abrasive but take it for what it is worth) than talk to your dyno shop they should have some tips for you if they know what they are doing
and if you have the means to do the compression test yourself do it its just more info you have about your car

bends before maf= bad

what am I bitching about?
your incessant asking for some kind of justification.
in your own mind you have some FAST CAR.
in reality it's a TURD.

People try to help.. you argue with them.

ENJOY DRIVING A TURD...that's all I'm saying.

you went to the track with Crappy tires and ran crappy times
you went to the dyno with crappy mods and got crappy results.

noticing a pattern here?

fukit...I tried this before. you wouldn't listen and you've got a turd.

now I'm pissing against the wind..
because you are in "denial about your crappy mods".

enjoy being slow, until you are ready to listen to someone who has far more experience than yourself.

YOUR MODS ARE CRAP.
Put the damned thing as near to stock as you can get it..THEN start over.

DO PROPER DATA COLLECTION.
DONT BE STUPID AND LISTEN.

there.... you have a goal now.. LEARN SOMETHING AND STOP BEING STUPID.

Geno@LMS cringes everytime he sees your sig file.

I'm going to get the bottom of the operator who did the dyno to get to the bottom of some questions. I'm also going to take your advice with the intake setup, if your wrong i'm going to rub it in your face, just like my trans swap that you said was beyond me, i love my 01 gt trans!

Your car made 238 and you bought an 800 dollar program good for you. my mods are crap? my cars a turd, LEMME MISPELL WERDZ I AM STUPID bla bla your a internet tough guy!

I got your advice, but please turn off the attitude. How is my list of mods offending you? My intake is the only thing questionable to you... Other than that dual exhaust with the midpipe X magnaflow, good mod, 160 T stat, good mod, FFRP wires? good mod? screamin demon? they work well for driller?

You're right I should have dynod it stock but group dyno days are far and between. I'm not going to squabble over 20 whp over bull :q:q:q:q bolt ons, when I know that the guys who make serious hp and own the dynos tell me my spray setup should see well over 400 whp.

There are also variables as you said to the operation of the dyno, which could error 10-20 hp.

This thread got very funny very quickly....

besides all the other above, how does the curve look?

(yes he is a bit abrasive but take it for what it is worth)

agree'd I'm abrasive..no doubt.
But this isn't the first time he's asked questions, gotten answers then went and did something totally different...

Then he comes back and asks WHY his car doenst run like other poeples cars.

example.. he asked "what plugs should I run".
I told him awsfa 22 c's and 12 c's if he was gonna spray it.
He said these plugs were unavailable, yet Dennis Reinhart and Lonnie both sell these plugs on their website.

He listens to idiots at autoparts stores who are too lazy to find him the part he asks for..then he uses the part the autoparts idiot suggests.

and..then he comes back here..and again asks why his car doesn't run like it should.


go back and look at ALL of Abes posts..look at the questions he asks, then look what he does.

He doesn't listen to those that have travelled this road before, he'd rather listen to what some "honda driving autoparts idiot" tells him

He put an aftermarket coil on a car that absolutely doesnt need "hotter coils"
He puts a "cold air kit" on the car that has bends before the MAF, screwing up the maf transfer function...then when he's called out on his crappy mods..he gets all defensive.

The question is.. Does he want to have a fast car?
Or does he want to have all the "monkey see monkey do" mods ...
he cant have both.

I think the second pull looks good nice and even

i talked to the guy who was watching the computers just now, he believes it was done in D with the O/D pulling in third. Cuz the first run he hit the limiter, as you can see in the graph.

I'm going to get the bottom of the operator who did the dyno to get to the bottom of some questions. I'm also going to take your advice with the intake setup, if your wrong i'm going to rub it in your face, just like my trans swap that you said was beyond me, i love my 01 gt trans!

Your car made 238 and you bought an 800 dollar program good for you. my mods are crap? my cars a turd, LEMME MISPELL WERDZ I AM STUPID bla bla your a internet tough guy!

I got your advice, but please turn off the attitude. How is my list of mods offending you? My intake is the only thing questionable to you... Other than that dual exhaust with the midpipe X magnaflow, good mod, 160 T stat, good mod, FFRP wires? good mod? screamin demon? they work well for driller?

You're right I should have dynod it stock but group dyno days are far and between. I'm not going to squabble over 20 whp over bull :q:q:q:q bolt ons, when I know that the guys who make serious hp and own the dynos tell me my spray setup should see well over 400 whp.

There are also variables as you said to the operation of the dyno, which could error 10-20 hp.

bitch please..
YOU screwd up a FUEL PUMP INSTALL..
YES I said a trans swap was above your head..and I still feel the same way.

Your mod list doesnt offend me..but I'm sure it's quite embarrassing to Geno.

NOW..before you think you are going to RUB anything in my face.
I did not say putting the stock air intake was going to FIX your piece of shyat.

i DID say your current set up is CRAP.
In fact everything you touched has turned to CRAP.

Just because screaming demon coils work for Driller whos car is LIGHT YEARS ahead of your car, doesnt mean they are gonna do SQUAT for your car.

Again.. your falling back to the typical "monkey see, monkey doo" bullcrap.

You have no data to support your mods...yet you want to split hairs with me?

you are hopeless Abe... simply hopeless.

Run back to your dynod00ds and ask THEM why your car is a turd?
They said you should have 400HP!
Did you ask them why your only 200HP away?

P.S. purchasing a 800 dollar program does not make my car faster than yours.

it's the KNOWLEDGE that I put into the program that makes my SLOW TURD SECOND GEN many car lengths faster that your "modded driveway queen"

..good for you!

bitch please..
YOU screwd up a FUEL PUMP INSTALL..
YES I said a trans swap was above your head..and I still feel the same way.

Your mod list doesnt offend me..but I'm sure it's quite embarrassing to Geno.

NOW..before you think you are going to RUB anything in my face.
I did not say putting the stock air intake was going to FIX your piece of shyat.

i DID say your current set up is CRAP.
In fact everything you touched has turned to CRAP.

Just because screaming demon coils work for Driller whos car is LIGHT YEARS ahead of your car, doesnt mean they are gonna do SQUAT for your car.

Again.. your falling back to the typical "monkey see, monkey doo" bullcrap.

You have no data to support your mods...yet you want to split hairs with me?

you are hopeless Abe... simply hopeless.

Run back to your dynod00ds and ask THEM why your car is a turd?
They said you should have 400HP!
Did you ask them why your only 200HP away?

P.S. purchasing a 800 dollar program does not make my car faster than yours.

it's the KNOWLEDGE that I put into the program that makes my SLOW TURD SECOND GEN many car lengths faster that your "modded driveway queen"

..good for you!

driveway queen? nooo

Do a compression test. Your mods are fine, you are down on power but the thing that worries me is your horsepower curve. I have never seen the power drop off so much after you hit peak at around 5500rpm. Usually I recommend shifting a tuned gen 1 around 6600rpm and a gen 2 at 7000rpm but with your car I would shift at 5800-6000rpm MAX.

everything ive touched has turn to crap? Wheres your gen I??

Do a compression test. Your mods are fine, you are down on power but the thing that worries me is your horsepower curve. I have never seen the power drop off so much after you hit peak at around 5500rpm. Usually I recommend shifting a tuned gen 1 around 6600rpm and a gen 2 at 7000rpm but with your car I would shift at 5800-6000rpm MAX.

I hit the rev limit on the first pull because i have 4.10's and the tune wasn't on for the first pull. He ran it in third, with the OD off.

What is your exhaust setup again? My 95 LSC made 260rwhp, 275rwtq STD with similar mods on the dyno but it was the strongest gen 1 I have ever seen or driven.

Why argue over expensive little hp mods when you can add boost and call it a day.............

I spray, I'm missing some hp up top and I'm not sure why.... I removed the crazy hp stealing bend now have hot air intake... I got a custom dual 2.5 with magnaflow di/do muffler internal Xpipe.

Awsf plugs are discontinued.

I think both the TQ and HP curves fall off too much IMHO. Regardless of the numbers, the shape of the curves seem off.

The torque curve should be way flatter and start to taper back past 5000-5200 rpms. The HP curve falls much too quick after peak.

You should have more torque earlier and you should have more HP later.

FWIW - look at my dyno sheet from back in '05... forget the numbers, look at the curves.

http://photos.imageevent.com/driller/dynoday/websize/100_1598.JPG

Why? I don't know - could be the dyno, could be the mods, possibly a combo of the two.

Did the torque converter lock and stay locked? That may be an issue as well. If the dyno operator cannot lockup the converter and hold it - there will be a difference. I know my car is a bitch to dyno if they can't control the TC. Anyone can lock out OD.

That I'm not sure, I didn't do the dyno. I assume the guy knows what he's doing... For all I know he didn't lock up, the first curve is all screwy... And that's stock. Driller does that intake bend before your mafs mess up your linear flow?

That I'm not sure, I didn't do the dyno. I assume the guy knows what he's doing... For all I know he didn't lock up, the first curve is all screwy... And that's stock. Driller does that intake bend before your mafs mess up your linear flow?

I'm sure he knows what he's doing - but I suspect you didn't know to ask. My guess is since the pull didn't start 'til near 4K he was trying to keep the converter locked. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. If they can't command TC lockup, you have to roll into it more before the WOT pull and cross your fingers.

I think BOTH curves are screwy, the first more than the second.

As far as the intake bend before the MAFS - of course the 'linear flow' is messed up. That's physics and you can't argue that. On my particular setup, the MAF was sold with and calibrated for the intake elbow and more importantly, the tune was done with the MAF calibration data.

There are some things you can do though. The best is a straight section of tubing before the MAF. On our cars that is a tough one to deliver. Another one is a dynotune session and another is an air screen on the inlet side of the MAF. The tune can compensate for the MAF non-linear response and a screen will dissipate and 'straighten' the inlet flow somewhat. Some OEM MAFs have this feature.

Ok well I popped the cone filter on the end of the maf adapter, I'll see if I can find another air box if that's the case. I've had good traps but low ets. Hmm so I'm losing hp up top. The cone is straight, I'm pretty sure my mafs has a screen. I'm gonna assume this wouldn't screw up my dyno that much...I bet it's something with fuel system somehow, I gonna order a fuel guage that'll go before my fuel selenoid in my n20 kit cuz the schrader valve is in use.

Just a few points:


1) A tuner CAN lock out whatever gear they want to pull your car on and have it stay in JUST that gear even when you go WOT on the dyno. Same goes for the TC lockup. After the tune is done those temporarily modified parameters are switched back to normal and now the trans operated normally again.

2) Bend before the MAFS will disturb laminar airflow going into the MAFS. However, this is not the end of the world. This is not as critical in a N/A application such as Abe's but still is worth good consideration. Assuming that the MAFS is not place DIRECTLY after a significant bend or intake tube size transition the resulting airflow disturbances can be taken into account with a proper recalibration. aka a custom tune. The whole MAFS itself calibrated specifically for a bend in the intake stuff is not accurate. Precalibrated MAFS, in that sense, are just a rough in job of calibration. VERY roughed in. That is what the old Fox body Mustang guys always did and still try to do. While it may have been the best method back then because of yesteryears technology it is nowhere close to the best way today. Full custom tuning (aka recalibration) has replaced that due to being lightyears more accurate. There will still need to be a custom tune done with the given mods on the car before full proper calibration is seen.

3) Abe I think your problem is a combination of a few things. First off you didn't do a baseline so you have no idea if your car just was underpowered from the getgo or what. Some cars even when having the same configuration, will make less power while others make more. Call it little variations in the manufacturing process of each part that ends up adding into a bigger different in resulting horsepower by the end. Ok, back on topic. You have no idea how far you have come with the given mods you did because you do not know where you are coming from. After all, if a person shows up on my doorstep I cannot know how far they have driven unless I know where they came from. Same principle applies here too.
Another item that I see that may be the case. I get the impression that you are making some of these changes, especially to the intake tube and MAFS placement without getting a following custom tune to recalibrate it. That will do a few undesirable things. Moving the MAFS and not recalibrating the MAFS Transfer Function will throw your AFR's off, Load will be off, Spark Advance will be off as a result to load being off, and even transmission functions can be off too (though in this case it would be bound to be very minor). Mess with the MAFS placement or intake tube configuration and it will be best to do a few pulls to ensure everything it still dialed in. If it is not then you now know what has to be done. This is the proper way to do it. It will no be the cheapest way or the most convenient way but that is life with cars. Got to pay to play. I said "may" in the first part of this paragraph because I didn't see any evidence of the contrary but I have been known to miss things. If you indeed have had a full custom tune done after those modifications then disregard what I said as just general tech talk. Remember that not all modifications require a retune. I don't want people reading what I just wrote and going out to get a dyno tune for a friggin underdrive pulley. hehe. :D

Good luck guys. I hope my post helped more than confused everyone.

I've had good traps but low ets. Hmm so I'm losing hp up top.

Or if you are spinning your tires as much as you claimed earlier then that could be the culprit. You will see higher traps with worse ET's when having significant traction problems off the line.


I bet it's something with fuel system somehow, I gonna order a fuel guage that'll go before my fuel selenoid in my n20 kit cuz the schrader valve is in use.


How in the heck will you know it is a fuel issue when you do not even know what your AFR's were from that last pull. Again, you got to know where you are coming from before you know how to get where you want to go.

Also what do you mean your fuel schrader is still in use??? If that thing is still in there and you plan to spray the car then you best take the schrader out otherwise you will be spraying the nitrous but no fuel. BAD DAY! I really hope I read this wrong.

Another item that I see that may be the case. I get the impression that you are making some of these changes, especially to the intake tube and MAFS placement without getting a following custom tune to recalibrate it.


Yes he has a "canned tune" from LMS..
THe dyno operator is not the same guy that tuned the chip.
He also spraying the car with a canned tune.

he's done the opposite of everything that was suggested, refuses to listen, argues..then waits two weeks and returns with more BS data...then want to split hairs.

*tosses in the towel*

Thanks for Chiming In ILLS.. you did a far better job than I did in regards to expressing your concerns.

Since you said many of the same things I said in regards to baseline, dyno operation etc.. MAYBE the kid will listen to you..

I seriously doubt the dyno operater did anything to his tune to lock the car in third gear.. Abe "assumes" he did...

I asked him about the AF trace, and I guess he doesnt know what that means,because he'd rather edit his sig file and attempt to piss me off..than worry about an "indicated 15-1 AF ratio"...:eek:

.

Awsf plugs are discontinued.

wrong again carriage top boy.

awsf were not discontinued there were superceded by PN awsfA
the awsf 12c's and awsf 22c's are now called AWSFA 22c and 12 c respectively.

Again you take information that has been "spoon fed" to you and toss it on the floor.
Both Blue Oval Chips AND Dennis Reinhart BOTH sell those plugs on their website.

Ok well I popped the cone filter on the end of the maf adapter, I'll see if I can find another air box if that's the case. I've had good traps but low ets. Hmm so I'm losing hp up top. The cone is straight, I'm pretty sure my mafs has a screen. I'm gonna assume this wouldn't screw up my dyno that much...I bet it's something with fuel system somehow, I gonna order a fuel guage that'll go before my fuel selenoid in my n20 kit cuz the schrader valve is in use.


*serious post*

Abe, putting the filter on the end of the maf via an adapter isn't going to help.
you say the cone is straight, but consider this.

The cone filter has the air entering from the SIDE, then it has to turn and go "down the maf" after it enters the filter.

IMHO the set up you had with the bend.. is probably better and more tunable than just the cone stuck to the end of the maf in the "hot air intake" configuration.



Does that make sense?

Also, you used the "assume" word again in this post... stop doing that lol

1) A tuner CAN lock out whatever gear they want to pull your car on and have it stay in JUST that gear even when you go WOT on the dyno. Same goes for the TC lockup. After the tune is done those temporarily modified parameters are switched back to normal and now the trans operated normally again.


Key word "tuner". And not all "tuners" will deal with eec-iv and be able to control TC lockup. If you go to a typical "group dyno-session", they do nothing to the tune or bother to control the transmission other than lock out OD with the shifter button.


The whole MAFS itself calibrated specifically for a bend in the intake stuff is not accurate. Precalibrated MAFS, in that sense, are just a rough in job of calibration. VERY roughed in. That is what the old Fox body Mustang guys always did and still try to do.


True, but even being 'roughed in' is better than a stock calibration OEM MAFS with modified inlet tubing.

everything ive touched has turn to crap? Wheres your gen I??

wheres my gen 1?

well some of your crackhead friends that you hired STOLE it, because you were mad because it made more power, was faster and ran better than your car.

Too bad they botched the job, because I got ALL the performance parts back and they will soon be on my SECOND GEN and it'll be light years ahead of your car..(smack talk smile)

Thanks for having your thug friends steal my car, because I would have never gotten rid of it without your help.

Now I have a better car with less miles and in the end all you gonna see is a "NICE VIEW" of that SEXY TAILLIGHT!

Get used to seeing this bro
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/signaturepics/sigpic7745_3.gif

haha

seriously..I'm just bustin your balls bro..dont get mad

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/nothing_to_see_here.jpg

Key word "tuner". And not all "tuners" will deal with eec-iv and be able to control TC lockup. If you go to a typical "group dyno-session", they do nothing to the tune or bother to control the transmission other than lock out OD with the shifter button.


Well if this kid wants the results he is going to have to bite the money-bullet and pony up for the proper work. He cannot get something for nothing. If ya do halfassed testing then expect halfassed results. From the way people talk in here I get the impression that you, Driller, take the time to make sure things are right with your combo; or at least pay someone to verify that. In the case above I am sure I am speaking to the choir with what I just said, but this Abe kid may still need to learn that lesson.



True, but even being 'roughed in' is better than a stock calibration OEM MAFS with modified inlet tubing.


Regardless if it may be better or not, it still isn't an actual full recalibration like what happens in with custom tuning. Depending on how extensive the modifications that were made the calibration could be off a ways. Or it could only be off a bit in certain MAF Count cells. All I am saying is do not expect a "precalibrated MAFS" to replace the neccessity of custom tuning when modding a vehicle. Still to determine whether the tune needs tweaked datalogging with AFR's will have to be performed. It seems like the guess, then make another guess approach is being used here. The problem is that the guessing approach usually ends up taking 3 times as long and costs more than just doing it right the first time. Much more headache too.

I don't spray with the tune on there. I always pull the chip and put in my n20 plugs if I know im going to be spraying (bottle filled).

The schrader valve is removed out of my fuel rail! The threads on the rail are pretty weak so I am not going to remove the valve piece that the fuel line screws onto (fuel line for the wet kit) ... So I cannot put a fuel pressure guage on there. On Monday, I am going to order a FP guage that will fit on the fitting before my fuel selenoid.

Yes I am going to redyno it with a sniffer on the tailpipe, fuel pressure guage on the rail and the factory airbox in place to rule out any mafs problems. I am also going to put in some fresh spark plugs. Autolites is what I have been running, so I'll give the copper motorcrafts a try. I've read on TCCoA that because we have a "knock sensor" that we the marks should go for 2 heat ranges lower. Members here use a wide variety of plugs in different ranges. I still have my stock platinum ones, so for :q:q:q:qs and giggles maybe ill just throw my stock ones in there, since im trying to find a base tune.


I was unaware about the mafs needing linear airflow, so until I dig my airbox out I am going to just keep the cone filter on the end there hot air and all. (or ill get crafty and try to fab a heatshield out of an iceman at a local parts store.

I am running denso 02 sensors, that could be an issue I guess. I checked the engine codes, running and off... no codes. I'm gonna clean the mafs today and get ready for another pull. When I come up with something over 220whp (no tune) i'll run another couple pulls with the spray and let ya see what we got going on.

Thanks for the input. I got money - I just don't know how much more I want to put into the Mark.

Another thing that peeves me as well as food for thought is that two of my FFRP wires don't fit completely flush on the screamin demon CP's.

I'm going to grab some beers getting ready for the steelers to whoop on the cardinals!

Good Luck Abe..sounds like a solid plan.

halftime show might be good, the rest is..meh..football

*serious post*


The cone filter has the air entering from the SIDE, then it has to turn and go "down the maf" after it enters the filter.



my cone filter has filtering matrial on the top as well, so it does not neccesarily enter from the side ftw.

From the way people talk in here I get the impression that you, Driller, take the time to make sure things are right with your combo; or at least pay someone to verify that.

If nothing else, I am obsessively compulsive and persistent. I verify everything at the track.




Regardless if it may be better or not, it still isn't an actual full recalibration like what happens in with custom tuning.

If it wasn't already apparent, I agree with you 100% - the custom tuning is what brings it all together.

what mph does the converter lock? and will it lock at full throttle?

what mph does the converter lock? and will it lock at full throttle?

It's all in the tune. With my '93 switched to stock tune, the lockup is stupid low with 4.30s. I honestly forget what the lockup speed is in the other tunes.

It 'can' lock at full throttle but that depends upon a myriad of factors including speed. Again, on the dyno with no PCM control, you have to roll into it at a steady and long enough run to allow the TC to lock up. Then the speed has to be high enough before WOT to not unlock the TC when you go WOT. Even then, it is a coin-toss.

So this is a question for Geno

It sure is nice having access to the proper tuning tools....

Enjoy your genii, I had a bad battery btw, don't know if that matters. Replaced it with a opt red top ftw

Enjoy your genii, I had a bad battery btw, don't know if that matters. Replaced it with a opt red top ftw

Bad battery can cause all kind of goofy crap to occur.
Low voltage to the coils causing spark blow out
Low voltage to the fuel pump causing low fuel pressure.

None of the sensors can reporty correctly if their voltage is fubar.

Will you gain 20HP..dunno..but it's a step in the right direction.

It sure is nice having access to the proper tuning tools....

+1.. without a doubt...

it's great not to be a the mercy of a third party.

Enjoy your genii, I had a bad battery btw, don't know if that matters. Replaced it with a opt red top ftw

Optima batteries ftl... overpriced junk imo.


What led you to believe that the battery was bad?

I took it to get tested, because it was pretty old and was having trouble cold starting. It failed miserably. I have experience with the redtop, its a great product. What I look for is cost/warranty. The base battery was 100 bucks with 2 year warranty, and this one is 5 and it was 160.

Do a compression test... and let us know what you find. How many miles on the motor?

127k i have a tester, but its for a SBC. Think that it will work for the 32v. The threads i've read are very weak, so I didn't want to take a chance.

Just screw that SOB in there!

Will it work? Will the threads work for across engines?

NO it wont work....
now maybe he'll run out there and try and prove me wrong...

haha

Lol... Abe think about this.

When you go buy spark plugs do they ask you what thread size you need?

no! lol, so just pull the harness off the coilpacks, remove a spark plug, thread in the tester and have someone hold the throttle down and crank it for like 5 secs?

Do you need to remove all the spark plugs while testing each cylinder? I know at wot the engine won't turn on the fuel while your trying to start it.

I've searched, anyone have a procedure for this on our cars?

I pull the plug from the one I'm testing, screw in tester, crank at WOT like you said and take a reading. Remove the tester and put the plug back in. Move onto the next cylinder.

Just make sure you test with all the plugs in or none in because it will change your cranking speed if you start with none out and end with 7 out....

I like leak down tests better.

that makes sense, compression sounds very easy to do. It's a good time to swap in some different spark plugs.

fuel pressure = 31-32 psi at idle, 41-42 no vac on the FPR. WOT 40-42, hard to keep my eyes on the guage... Thats about right for a stock regulator right?

Bad thing is the line doesnt hold pressure on key on. Cold starts I have to prime it a couple times to get the fuel pressure to spike at the normal 40-42

fuel pressure = 31-32 psi at idle, 41-42 no vac on the FPR. WOT 40-42, hard to keep my eyes on the guage... Thats about right for a stock regulator right?

Bad thing is the line doesnt hold pressure on key on. Cold starts I have to prime it a couple times to get the fuel pressure to spike at the normal 40-42

Pressure's up to spec.

It should prime up when you start up anytime without cycling the key. It is best to turn the key on and hesitate a couple seconds before cranking the engine to start.

Check how long it takes to leak down after shutting it down. It's normal to leak down but it takes a while. If it leaks off quickly, it could be the regulator or the check valve in the fuel pump.

Leaks immediatley, so prolly check valve, cuz fuel pressure at wot is good so I doubt it's the FPR.

Time to drop the tank again a see wtf is going on...

well i know its the pump, if it doesn't prime whats the big deal? If i'm getting appropriate fp while the engines on?

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/intank_install_tips.html

ugh i should have just cut the stupid cap off the fuel pump outlet, apparently this isn't common for walbros to not hold fp cuz its super easy for the check valve to come out?

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/pics/broken.jpg

This is the culprit, damn thing on the outlet is known to come off when you remove the cover cap for the outlet (the red plastic cap)


http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/pics/no_ring.jpg

The white tip coming out of the outlet is the part of the checkvalve

Sounds like you know whats up now Abe, the decision is wether you can deal with longer cranks or you want to fix it.... it isn't hindering performance.

hmm im like 270 so i can understand the qt mile be a tenth or two off... but dyno i dont get... still waiting for my friend to give me back my compression tester.

What you need to do is put that car back to 100% stock or as close as you can reasonably do and then put it on a dyno and see what it does... baseline #'s go a long long way in figuring out if there is a problem or not.

I'm just itching to go crazy on my car but I want to get baseline #'s to evaluate all of my mods.

My guess is that you are losing power through the converter somehow... if it was OBD II I would log slip in the converter.... but unfortunately you can't do that....

Other guesses (which is all they are) totally wacked out AFR, wacked out load #'s....

I'm not sure exactly what it is. The motor feels strong... I would bet on driller saying that they probably didn't get full lock up. I am not sure what the characteristics are though of a dyno not locking up. But I know my car locks up because in 4th if I give it a bit of gas the rpms will go down bit.

That or plugs... damn copper plugs! No life expectency! Can't wait to get the compression test numbers up on this post.

Since i'm going to be spraying sooner then later I mind as well throw my .038 AL 103's in their. But NA driving is funkier then with out the 764's.

Does anyone spray with AL 764's at .048?

Put it back to stock MAF, tune, etc... get some base numbers.

When you do a compression test you are supposed to take every spark plug out at the same time and you should take out your fuel pump relay so your not load your cylinders up with fuel

Or you can just hold the pedal to the floor if you are too lazy to yank out the relay.

i agree about the stock intake i tried the conical on my gen one and my gen 2. they both ran lower et's and ran rich way rich stock air box with k and n. meet the engines demands
dyno sheets
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Mpd62lEfnVM/SEhKCZm9P8I/AAAAAAAAFfs/aSy3ZEo22WE/s640/IMG_0001.jpg
gen 2 stock tune svt focus pump airbox removed k&N

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Mpd62lEfnVM/SEhKEpm9P_I/AAAAAAAAFgE/C6CNTUhuGpE/s640/IMG_0004.jpg
gen 1 airbox removed k&N

I have a conical on both the 98 and 96 Mark VIII. Would do it again if I had to as well, no regrets here.

was your cone in the fender or hot air? The dirty mafs, worn plugs (and no dielectric grease) and crap battery were I believe the reasons for my pull on the low side.

before i did any of this though when i put the cone back in the engine bay, felt like I lost some steam, but it may be because I gothe mafs even dirtier from cleaning and lubing the cone but i doubt it since it was many miles after i cleaned it and had it in the fender.