I'm pretty sure that was a Freudian slip...

Jeez, knock it off already...

The man's a Marxist.

The man's a Muslim.

Jeez, knock it off already...

The man's a Marxist.

If you live in Washington, New York or Jerusalem, this is your future.

Report: Iran now has 6000 centrifuges for uranium (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iRqjZV1Meppj40hTs8IBOv4DdsQwD925NDN02)

Iran ends cooperation with UN nuclear arms probe (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/24/AR2008072401984.html)


Don't EVER say you didn't see it coming or it was Bush's fault.

Your fear mongering is bordering on insanity now, Monster.

Don't fear though, Bush sent someone to talk/negotiate with Iran, saw it last week on Israeli Fox news. Odd that, no? Bush negotiating with the "evil doers".

Bryan, your trumpeting of the muslim angle is nuts. There isn't any relevant evidence that he's currently a muslim. He may have been exposed to it in the past to some level, but he's clearly a Marxist through and through, based on his votes, his words, and his positions. I haven't heard him say anything that tells me he's a muslim.

You're losing it dude.

I will point out that I don't think being a Marxist and being a Muslim are two mutually exclusive things, one can be both ( as far as I know).

I personally am not convinced that Obama is a Muslim (outside of by birth), but that doesn't mean he doesn't have compromising Muslims ties, or at the very least is effectively friendly enough to radical Islam that his loyalties and priorities as President might be compromised.

Regardless, I would not trust him to put American interests ahead of all other interests (weather they be European,Muslim or ideological), or show wisdom or good judgment in international affairs.

bttt

I will point out that I don't think being a Marxist and being a Muslim are two mutually exclusive things, one can be both ( as far as I know).You'd be incorrect about that. But it doesn't really matter, as there is clear, concrete evidence of his Marxism, while there isn't much of anything that proves he's a muslim. Bryan's joining the ranks of the kooks by pursuing this angle.

Bryan's joining the ranks of the kooks by pursuing this angle.

Shiite law called Taqiyya.

Look it up.

I'll give you a hint.... means Dissimulation.

while there isn't much of anything that proves he's a muslim.
Drip, drip, drip and pretty soon you have a bucket full of water.

Obama = the crypto-Shiite Muslim?

If Obama converted to Christianity as he claims 20 years ago, did he take a Christian name as is the custom of Christians?

Children take the religion of the father according to Islamic law. Barack’s father and step-father were Muslim.
Therefore, Barack is Muslim. 1+ 1 = 2.

So if Barack was born to a Muslim father, it would be a capital offense to leave Islam. Unless Barack is practicing Taqiyya, in which ‘ol Barack could pretend to be outwardly Christian but maintain his Muslim identity.

Nikah Mutah is a Shia law. Seems this is how the Barack’s parents were married.

Why did Obama meet with Hassan Qazwini who happens to be the Shiite leader in America? Obama walked out of the meeting in 2008 with a copy of AMERICAN CRESCENT proudly tucked under his arm. Strange indeed for a practicing Christian.

Is it not curious to you that Obama wants to go after the Taliban in Afganistan who happen to be Sunni? He would even use nukes in Pakistan?

And why the fake birth certificate? At this point, no one in the United States has produced a similar one from the State of Hawaii using similar borders. What is he hiding? His dual-citizenship with Indonesia? Maybe that explains why he tried to pass that bill recently regarding McCain’s citizenship.

Hey, keep your head buried. Thats’s OK by me. In the meantime, I’ll keep digging if you don’t mind.

Hey, keep your head buried. Thats’s OK by me. In the meantime, I’ll keep digging if you don’t mind.
Funny how things turn around. I recall saying similar things to you about many of Ron Paul's positions.

But you keep digging. It's a waste of time, though, because by the time you come up with something the man will have been elected.

What, you don't think his brazen marxism is strong enough to attack? How naive.

You'd be incorrect about that. But it doesn't really matter, as there is clear, concrete evidence of his Marxism, while there isn't much of anything that proves he's a muslim.

Why do you say that? Why can you not be a Marxist and a Muslim?

Bryan, did it ever occur to you that when you throw everything out there including the "kitchen sink", and the vast majority turns out to be bogus, you lose all credibility, even among your own compatriots? The fact that Fossten now thinks you're off your rocker ought to tell you something. And what happens if you manage to dig up something that's actually TRUE? Who will listen to you then? You're shooting yourself in the foot with these crazy conspiracy theories.

Instead of wasting time on that, why aren't you talking about problems you have with his policies, which are REAL issues people can debate? Are the arguments against his policies really that weak?

But you keep digging. It's a waste of time, though, because by the time you come up with something the man will have been elected.

So I should stop looking into his past?
A guy who has no past?
Where are his transcripts from school?
How did he become President of the Harvard Law Review? Where are his writings that got him that position?
Where are his records from his time in the Illinois Senate?

You guys can sit there with your heads in the sand. That is your choice. When I got involved with Kerry 4 years ago, I had problems with his policy and his past. But we knew what they were. There was a trail.

There is no trail with Obama. Lots of problems though. The guy scares the crap out of me. I don't give a sh!t if 99% of the people think Obama is the next messiah. I don't. There is a problem there. His policy problems are obvious to all, even the Obama supporters. The media did not vet this guy. I will. I will make sure he fails in his bid to become MY president.

Obama is a Marxist/Muslim. AN unpatriotic racist muslim sympathiser who will sell this country down the road and raise my taxes more than 30%.

I'm gonna keep bashing. You guys are free to use the ignore button at your own peril.

Instead of wasting time on that, why aren't you talking about problems you have with his policies, which are REAL issues people can debate? Are the arguments against his policies really that weak?

Why aren't you guys posting about his lies and horrible policy proposals?

How you can look in the mirror and be a Obama supporter is so offensive to me it shakes me to the core. Hillary is 10 times the candidate than Barack.

If she wins the nomination (and I hope she does), I'll accept her victory over McCain and wait another 4 years to get back in power.

How you can look in the mirror and be a Obama supporter is so offensive to me it shakes me to the core. Hillary is 10 times the candidate than Barack.I'm not an Obama supporter, but I see no reason to let these asinine conspiracy theories go unanswered. Same goes for the 9/11 conspiracy lunacy. In any case, I have my own reasons for not voting for him, and none of them are because I think he's a secret Muslim.

Why aren't you guys posting about his lies and horrible policy proposals?

Well, part of that is because they are hard to find, at least compared to most candidates. As you pointed out, Obama doesn't have much of a record to look at. In addition, the MSM isn't too motivated to look into his record and find any skeleton's in the closet.

That is why I don't have much of a problem with people like Bryan looking into Obama's past. I am not saying I am convinced by much of it (that burden of proof is on them in this debate), but it is a process that needs to be done, especially when you have a candidate who doesn't seem to have much of a record. And there are often enough facts that come out that Obama should be asked about. He should be asked to explain his ties to Islam, and to explain some of the questions raised by his birth certificate if he is going to be the President.

Instead, his tactic (and the tactic of his supporters) seems to be to obfuscate, attack and, sometimes, subtly intimidate the people bringing the issues up, effectively avoiding (for the most part) having to actually answer any of these relevant questions.

Look at the Jeremiah Wright thing. Obama had been in that church for 20 years. If the MSM had been doing their job (and been in touch with the general population of America), that stuff would've been in the news, fully explored and explained and dealt with by the end of 2007. Instead the MSM had to be drug, kicking and screaming into covering that news story after alternative media brought it to light and harped on it enough to made it a part of the news cycle.

Even then, how did Obama react? He worked to change his story multiple times, downplay the concern and change the focus of the debate to those pointing these inconvenient facts about him out. It wasn't until he was politically forced to that he attacked the issue head on, and then used his smooth talking to further cloud the issue and change the focus. Frankly, the way he reacts to these things and attempts to counter them is more telling to me then anything else. If he has to spin and try to avoid any direct answer or rebuttal, that is rather telling, in my book.

the MSM is only really serving as a watchdog on republican's in general and McCain in particular, in this election. They are not workin too hard to find much out about Obama's political background and history.

That necessitates people like Bryan and others having to research this for themselves. The result is not as professional (no offense Bryan), and a lot of the process is slower then normal and exposed for all to see; these aren't trained journalists (by and large) doing the research and reporting here.

You don't elect someone with hardly anything known about them. That alone qualifies McCain over Obama, in my book.

Promising rhetoric is worthless without a proven and demonstrated ability to back that up with results; necessitating leadership and wisdom (among other factors). Style over substance. All Obama has going for him is rhetoric, arrogance. No other personal traits that demonstrate he is qualified to be president, and the arrogance will (and has) come back to bit him in the ass.

IMO, that arrogance in DNC candidates (more then anything else) is how they are usually able to "snatch defeat from the jaws of victory", as they say...

Sorry. Being long winded against... :D

I'm not an Obama supporter, but I see no reason to let these asinine conspiracy theories go unanswered. Same goes for the 9/11 conspiracy lunacy. In any case, I have my own reasons for not voting for him, and none of them are because I think he's a secret Muslim.

So, I am curious, who are you supporting? McCain, or are you going third party?

So, I am curious, who are you supporting? McCain, or are you going third party?Illinois isn't exactly a swing state, so I figure I have the luxury to vote on purely idealogical grounds. I see the erosion (or eventually elimination) of civil liberties as the number one threat this nation faces---FAR above the threat of terrorism---so Bob Barr is my choice. Not to say I'm fully on board with every Libertarian thought, but both McCain and Obama are too chicken-sh!t to even suggest rolling back some of the abuses and the subversion of the Constitution the Bush regime has instituted.

Holy :q:q:q:q! You and I are in the same boat!

Kansas isn't much of a swing state, either (even if Obama pick's Sebelious as his running mate). So I am thinkin of voting third party. And Libertarian Bob Barr is who I am considering voting for.

Not for the same reasons as you; civil liberties (I think we have had that discussion), but more along the lines Joey conveyed; federal spending and taxes.

Kansas is a lock for McCain, so I don't have to hold my nose and vote for him!

OMG - lightning does strike thrice! I'm considering Barr also.

Jeez, it's true what they say - politics does make for strange bedfellows.

Cheers, Shag and Tommy!

Edit: To your question about marxism and islam, Shag, I'm formulating a response.

Marxism includes atheistic, state control of economy, a belief in evolution not only biologically but with regard to history, economics, and politics. Its view of religion is to quash all forms in favor of a godless nation.

Obama isn't publicly atheistic, but in every application out of his mouth, he may as well be. Just look at his stance on abortion including partial birth. Judge the deeds and the words together.

Islam is theistic, involving a union of religion and state, a mix of socialism and capitalism, and subjugation of women by conviction. Its view of religion is to quash all forms except Islam.

Where they converge, like all worldviews apart from Biblical Christianity, is a deliberate aim for achieving one-world government by coercion. Although that vision looks different from each point of view.

OMG - lightning does strike thrice! I'm considering Barr also.

Jeez, it's true what they say - politics does make for strange bedfellows.

Cheers, Shag and Tommy!

Edit: To your question about marxism and islam, Shag, I'm formulating a response.

Great minds think alike, eh?

Interestingly enough, I think we are also all Galactica fans...

Marxism includes atheistic, state control of economy, a belief in evolution not only biologically but with regard to history, economics, and politics. Its view of religion is to quash all forms in favor of a godless nation.

Obama isn't publicly atheistic, but in every application out of his mouth, he may as well be. Just look at his stance on abortion including partial birth. Judge the deeds and the words together.

Islam is theistic, involving a union of religion and state, a mix of socialism and capitalism, and subjugation of women by conviction. Its view of religion is to quash all forms except Islam.

Where they converge, like all worldviews apart from Biblical Christianity, is a deliberate aim for achieving one-world government by coercion. Although that vision looks different from each point of view.

Ok, I understand that. socialism is atheistic while Islam is (obviously) theistic. Makes sense.

so, in a strict sense, you can't be Muslim and socialist, but what about in a very broad sense? You see people buy into views that would seem contradictory. Christians who believe in evolution, which is effectively an atheistic view (BTW, I really don't wanna re-open the whole evolution vs. ID can of worms in this thread :) ), etc..

You even see Obama who is in many ways effectively a socialist (atheistic), but claims to be a Christian (theistic). How do you explain that?

BTW: I know I am effectively equivocating the terms "Muslim" and "socialism" here, but I figured that enough people do have these very broad working definitions of those terms that it was relevant to a discussion of weather someone can be both Muslim and socialist. :)

Basically, can someone be effectively a Muslim and a socialist, depending how they define or redefine those terms? I understand that technically, one cannot be both a Muslim and a socialist due philosophical and theological views and definitions.

If you truly understand what socialism and Islam is, then you cannot, with any degree of intellectual integrity, subscribe to both views. But I don't think of Obama as necessarily informed enough to be able to understand and appriciate that distinction, or having enough intellectual integrity to accept that distinction. I have seen lot of style from him and next to no substance...

I got it hes not a man at all!

I got it hes not a man at all!

Nope! He's a cyborg sent from the future. Oh, wait, that's the governor of California.:lol:

OMG - lightning does strike thrice! I'm considering Barr also.

WOW! This is great! Three supposedly intelligent individuals are going to roll the dice and hope that Obama doesn't win by tossing their vote away on a non-factor.

Congratulations guys. You'll get what you deserve.

The time to vote principles is during the primary. The actual vote for President is too important to toss away by allowing the worst of the two evils to win.

I just don't get it. Nothing but a bunch of Ross Perot type voters here. Guess you guys learn nothing from history.:rolleyes:

I'm not an Obama supporter, but I see no reason to let these asinine conspiracy theories go unanswered.

Explain to me how Obama traveled to Pakistan as a student in 1981 (which was closed to travel for US citizens) if he didn't use his Indonesian passport?

He has held two citizenships which according to Article II of the US Constitution (which you claim Bush has raped and pillaged) disqualifies him. So if the Constitution and what it stands for is so important to you, I'm sure you'll have no problem with Obama being disqualified for POTUS due to issues that arise from dual-citizenship. In particular, divided loyalities.


and none of them are because I think he's a secret Muslim.I'm not willing to take the chance that he might turn out to be one. There is one person in the United States who we should know everything about and where they are coming from and not have to take a flyer on due to unanswered questions. That person is the POTUS. End of story.

ALL I want to see is his actual Birth Certificate which he claims he has or a certified COLB (Certificate of Live Birth) from the State of Hawaii with a valid certificate number.

ALL you people should be ashamed for not being OUTRAGED that we have a guy running for PRESIDENT who can't even produce a document that an ordinary citizen would need to get health insurance or join a sport team.

America is F'd with all you people willing to be lambs lead to the slaughter. A pock on all of you.

WOW! This is great! Three supposedly intelligent individuals are going to roll the dice and hope that Obama doesn't win by tossing their vote away on a non-factor.

Congratulations guys. You'll get what you deserve.

The time to vote principles is during the primary. The actual vote for President is too important to toss away by allowing the worst of the two evils to win.

I just don't get it. Nothing but a bunch of Ross Perot type voters here. Guess you guys learn nothing from history.:rolleyes:

Well, like I said, Kansas is a lock for McCain. If the popular vote is what elected a president, I would vote for McCain. Since it is an electoral college, one vote in Kansas is not going to sway the election. If I were in a swing state like Florida or Ohio, I would vote for McCain.

Keep this fact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas#Federal_politics) in mind:
Historically, Kansas has been strongly Republican. In fact, the only non-Republicans Kansas has given its electoral vote to are Populist James Weaver and Democrats Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, and Lyndon Johnson. In 2004, George W. Bush won the state's 6 electoral votes by an overwhelming margin of 25 percentage points with 62% of the vote. The only two counties to support Democrat John Kerry in that election were Wyandotte, which contains Kansas City, and Douglas, home to the University of Kansas, located at Lawrence.

TommyB has pretty well said the same thing (geographical location allowing him the luxury to vote on a purely ideological basis). I don't know about Kentucky (where Fossten comes from), but I would imagine similar.

Voting purely on ideological grounds for president is a luxury I can afford due to where I live. How is my vote in Kansas going to make a difference in the general election? If you can give me a solid argument that there is a realistic possibility that my vote in Kansas will effect the general election for POTUS, I will vote for McCain. ;)

Explain to me how Obama traveled to Pakistan as a student in 1981 (which was closed to travel for US citizens) if he didn't use his Indonesian passport?I can't find any verification on whether Americans could or could not travel to Pakistan in 1981, but for the sake of argument, I'll take your word for it (the claims of it being closed to non-Muslims is much more dubious and I require some evidence). In any case, the point is moot, because once outside the US, you're only under the restrictions in effect for the country you're currently in. That's how people get around the US-Cuba travel restrictions. So Obama could have easily used his US passport to travel from Indonesia to Pakistan. He didn't need an Indonesian passport, even if he had one.

As for what he did while in Pakistan, you dismiss the possibility that he was there for exactly the reasons he stated, without any evidence to the contrary except your preconceived notions that he's a closet jihadist. He says he went there with a friend to meet his friend's family, not go on a sightseeing tour. Sounds plausible to me. But then I live on Earth.

He has held two citizenships which according to Article II of the US Constitution (which you claim Bush has raped and pillaged) disqualifies him. So if the Constitution and what it stands for is so important to you, I'm sure you'll have no problem with Obama being disqualified for POTUS due to issues that arise from dual-citizenship. In particular, divided loyalities.You claim he had dual citizenship like it's a known fact, when in fact there is zero evidence that he ever has. You're having to make this stuff up because you need it to be true for your conspiracy to work. Since it is physically impossible to prove that he does NOT have dual citizenship, you can go on making these claims with seeming impunity. But guess what? The onus is on YOU to prove your claim, not Obama to prove otherwise.

I'm not willing to take the chance that he might turn out to be one. There is one person in the United States who we should know everything about and where they are coming from and not have to take a flyer on due to unanswered questions. That person is the POTUS. End of story.Was John McCain brainwashed while in captivity and programmed to bring communism to America once in power? I'm not willing to take the chance that he won't.

Sometimes the questions are too ludicrous to even answer. You aren't owed answers to every ridiculous question you pose. Get over yourself.

ALL I want to see is his actual Birth Certificate which he claims he has or a certified COLB (Certificate of Live Birth) from the State of Hawaii with a valid certificate number.Jeez, back to the birth certificate, the myth that won't die.... Didn't you just post a link a few days ago showing the birth announcement in the Honolulu paper?

Get it through your head: Barack Obama was born in Hawaii in 1962, making him a natural born citizen. End of story.

ALL you people should be ashamed for not being OUTRAGED that we have a guy running for PRESIDENT who can't even produce a document that an ordinary citizen would need to get health insurance or join a sport team.The fact that he won't provide YOU and your cohorts with your own notarized copy, personally delivered by Hawaii's Secretary of State to your doorstep is all that keeps your little Obama Haters Club going.

And admit it: Even if the Obama campaign produced the original birth certificate for the world to see, your band of armchair imaging experts would manage to find some reason to claim that it's a fake. So why the hell should they give you the time of day?

America is F'd with all you people willing to be lambs lead to the slaughter. A pock on all of you.America is probably F'd no matter who wins the election.

If you truly understand what socialism and Islam is, then you cannot, with any degree of intellectual integrity, subscribe to both views. But I don't think of Obama as necessarily informed enough to be able to understand and appriciate that distinction, or having enough intellectual integrity to accept that distinction. I have seen lot of style from him and next to no substance...Correct...

but therefore...

Obama likely isn't "enough of a muslim" to try to reshape America into a Sharia-dominated nation during his presidency. But with the support of the National Socialist Democrat Party, he is very likely to try to shape America into a socialist nation. I believe no man can completely obfuscate the truth about himself. What he's let show is Marxism through and through. I've seen nothing that shows muslim beliefs except for Bryan's kooky digging into the Manchurian past.

WOW! This is great! Three supposedly intelligent individuals are going to roll the dice and hope that Obama doesn't win by tossing their vote away on a non-factor.

Congratulations guys. You'll get what you deserve.

The time to vote principles is during the primary. The actual vote for President is too important to toss away by allowing the worst of the two evils to win.

I just don't get it. Nothing but a bunch of Ross Perot type voters here. Guess you guys learn nothing from history.:rolleyes:Bryan, you should know better than this.

Doesn't this fact that you're whining about beg the question "Why?" It should be alarming to you that (probably) so many people who would likely vote Republican are spurning the party this time. Wonder why that is? Are we all just a bunch of selfish jerks? Or could it be the unsatisfactory candidate? Did you ever consider that possibility? We all understand the risk that Obama may be elected, and we're still uncertain? Perhaps the lesser of two evils isn't really that lesser, did you ever consider that? Probably not, but then again, looking at all sides of an issue isn't your strong suit, is it?

My vote didn't count during the primaries, because McCain was already "selected" before they came around for Kentucky. I mentioned this before, and I didn't hear word one of sympathy or understanding from you on the subject. You were too busy calling Ron Paul names, and by extension, me.

Interesting the Ross Perot canard. So we had 8 years of Clinton and...what happened? We turned it around all right! 8 years of Bush the moderate. :rolleyes: You're not impressing me.

My vote didn't count during the primaries, because McCain was already "selected" before they came around for Kentucky. I mentioned this before, and I didn't hear word one of sympathy or understanding from you on the subject. You were too busy calling Ron Paul names, and by extension, me.

What I have been railing against is this country's move to socialism. Supporting a candidate with no chance of winning is foolish in my book. That is why I railed on Paul. I agree with many of his proposals but I repeatedly told you of my disagreement with him being the messenger. As proof, take a look at Obama. Everybody worships him right? Yet the guy has the worst message. Appearance matters in Presidential politics, like it or not. I'm sorry, Paul didn't 'Look' presidential. He looked angry and swollen and appearance has a larger impact believe it or not than policy positions in this country when it comes to elections.