How many of us know anyone who IS an illegal alien?
We sure like to act like we do.
We must know them very well.
We KNOW they like to take our jobs away from us.
(How many of us would stand waist deep in farm animal feces and entrails or lay bricks in 100-degree heat for the wages these jokers offer?)
We know that they are stealing our precious monitary resources,and they are running up our hospital bills.
(If you came from such a desolate land,would you risk getting caught and sent back to where you've been trying to escape for something so stupid as not paying a bill? In fact, most Illegals avoid any kind of health care because of that fear of returning to their homeland.)
We know they want driver's licenses so they can get welfare!
(Okay, Einstien; Why do you think in many states insurance premiums are steadily increasing at an extorbitant rate to the point of even having lilability is causing you to spend more money annually than your car is actually worth on insurance. On that note, as crazy as liscensed drivers are; wouldn't your personal safety matter and be better protected if there were more properly trained drivers on our highways? I know I would feel safer.)
All I am trying to say here is; unless you've spent a week in a colonia,
sat down to dinner with, or even had a working relationship with an "Illegal Immigrant" and maybe have seen or heard the constant ordeals they have gone through you might understand and realize " Hey that sounds like what Gamma Yeta or Great-Great-Great- Grandad Natahniel had to go through years ago. Be it in 1917 Brooklyn or the day the Mayflower landed at Plymouth Rock.In this world today, EVERYONE (even myself) is too damn quick to judge everyone, anytime. We should really try to look and see how the other one feels to be on their side for once.

:I Hell, a coupla hundred years ago my family was treated the same way for being...IRISH...oh my god...and CATHOLIC...I leave these words...

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

I appreciate that my friend, I also notice that you quoted from the plaque on the Statue Of Liberty, Awesome! Unfortunate that kind of garbage,(the Irish,Catholic thing etc...)still goes on today, my Mother's family resides in the Boston area and I see that antiquidated bullcrap still go on when I go up there. Hell, it's everywhere, here in Georgia and throughout the "deep south" the Civil War still exists as it has had for the past 140+ years, In Texas, the annexation is still going on almost 160 years later.It's so fricking amazing that these petty squabbles over what amounts to minor differences still exists for all these years after the original parties involved have been long dead. Maybe this is the reason why this is "one of those subjects that makes Randy run off at the yap again." I'm just so sick of the bulls#!+ hatred that simmers along in this melting pot culture we live in.What ever happened to the theory that variety(diversity) was what kept the world interesting? Even the "minority" thing is sickening, In California, my Dad's family is overrun with this "I'm a POOR minority, you MUST help me" mentality. Everything I have achieved in my life,is exactly that, MY achievement nobody ever said to me "Oh you poor Latino,here we'll give you this 50K a year job,or we'll give you this 125K house because we feel soooo sorrrry fer youuuu!" If anything, the "poor Latino" thing has been morre of an insult to my intellegence than anything else. When I moved to Georgia 7 years ago, I went down to the Department of Labor to go look for a job, I was so prepared, 3-piece Palm Beach suit, sparkling resume' in hand, effervescent can-do personality you know, I was all-that and the works! I was ready to take on the world as I had back in ol' San Antonio! After waiting in this miserable place for hours, I was finally called up to talk to a counselor. This frail woman behind the desk had the audacity to tell me, without appearing to even look at my resume; "Mr Rodriguez, we have several agricultural posistions available for your skill level in Perry." It was a total slap in the face. NOWHERE on my resume was any mention of ANY agricultural experience, Honestly, I can't even grow dandilions in my front yard successfully! The thing that hurt me the most was this was told to me from an African-American woman. Now, I know, not everyone is the same, and I also learned that day that predjudice comes from all the colors in the rainbow(so to speak).
I also realise that in hindsight, in a not very professional way, that lady might have been trying to genuinely help me. It sure didn't feel that way the day it happened.
I don't truly know, It was merely a bad situation brought up by a poor choice of words at an already trying time in my life. The culture bashing still goes on all over America today though.It won't ever stop as long as ignorance and insecurities of the other person continue. It is a sick, sad unfortunate fact of human nature though. What can we do?

Chill out man! I get it all the time. I'm French, so I get to listen to all the BS cowardice stories from you Americans. LOL. Where I live, immigrant workers from Mexico are recruited to work in our vegetable fields, because the white unemployed trash would rather sit on their fat a$$es and collect unemployment than do a job for "only" $8 an hour. And they do a great, great job too..very hard workers. Our local economy would be in ruins without these hard workers. White trash annoys me more than any immigrant could...Where I live, most of the "illegal aliens" are Americans....

Yeah, I know and have worked with some IA's, and yes, people are people, and everyone has a story.

But the issue is these people weren't screened for diseases, for security problems, or for criminal records. Heck for all we know they could be politicians!

All the people who have entered this country in a legal manner are degraded by those who come in under the wire.

Ok, here is the flip side to everything posted up to now.
You can call me racist or what ever but, My feelings about illegal immigration
are blunt and to the point.
These low lifes do not belong in this country if they entered illegally.
We have laws in this country pertaining to immigration and if these people disregard the laws, they should be deported immediately.
This crap about "they do jobs americans wont" is just that, a big crock of sh***.
If this government would crack down on welfare and force these welfare recipiants to work or starve, you bet your sweet a** they would do the jobs.
As for the borders, I am inclined to agree with Bill O"Rielly when he says that the national guard should be sent to the borders to back up the border patrol.
The big difference between my opinion and his is that I would not stop at just bringing the national guard to the borders.
I would also have giant billboards every 1/4 mile, for the entire legnth of the border.
These signs would face the Mexican border, stating in big red letters, written in spanish; "IF YOU ENTER THIS COUNTRY ILLEGALLY, YOU WILL BE SHOT DEAD ON THE SPOT, AND GO HOME IN A BODY BAG."
For much too long, this immigration problem has been swept under the rug by all politicians in an attempt to garnish the hispanic vote.
With the ever increasing threat of terriorism , the opportunity for terriorist infiltration into this country from our southern border is extremely real.
Lately there has been talk that terriorist may enter through Mexico with the intent of setting off weapons that could contain necular properties.
I don't know about you, but this is a scary situation. We folks living in the southwest should be very concerned at this possibility.
We always hear the arguments that all these people want is to make a decent life for themselves, and I can sympathise with their concerns, but my answer to that is, then do what my farther did years ago, apply for citizenship, and wait your turn.
Don't come here through illegal tunnels and expect that we are going to open our arms up and welcome you.
Don't come here , over the fence, and ask us to provide food, medecine and medical care for you and you family.
Don't come here smuggled in a van and ask us to provide you housing and give you a driver's license.
Do it legally and these things could be provided on a temporary basis.
I am not a racist as some of you may think, I am just one very concerned american who has seen this problem snowball to gigantic proportions in the last ten years.
Enough is enough.
For the security of this nation, the borders, north and south, should be closed until such time that the terriorist situation is under control.
The times we live in have made it much more than a "Hispanic" infiltration into this country.
Today, infiltration at our borders could also mean life or death for many of us.

Bob, why don't you tell us what you really think. You fit right in.

Funny, I agree with almost everything you said, except the shooting part.

IMHO, I would agree that granting citizenship to illegal aliens demeans those that played by the rules.

One thing you didn't mention Bob is that children of illegal aliens that are born here automatically become citizens and many end up on the Welfare rolls.

Bob,

You're clueless if you think shutting the borders will eliminate the terrorist problem. In case you haven't heard, the FBI and CIA both have evidence that says there are already Arab-Americans (US citizens) terrorists in most US cities with a significant Arab population. So closing the borders won't do much. And I agree, close the North borders. Afterall, you guys don't want an influx of educated, skilled Canadians making US citizens look bad...LOL..... :)

Bob,

You're clueless if you think shutting the borders will eliminate the terrorist problem. In case you haven't heard, the FBI and CIA both have evidence that says there are already Arab-Americans (US citizens) terrorists in most US cities with a significant Arab population. So closing the borders won't do much. And I agree, close the North borders. Afterall, you guys don't want an influx of educated, skilled Canadians making US citizens look bad...LOL..... :)

I didn't say closing the borders would "eliminate" the terriorist problem.
What it would do is lessen the chances of necular weapons being brought into this country thereby thwarting an attack, especially some where in the southwest.
Closing the borders would be a step in the right direction.
Now, more than ever, we need to know just who is in our country and more importantly, what they are doing here.
It is as plain as the laws of nature.
The fox guards the den against intrusion.
As far as I am concerned, the "smart" Canadians can stay north of the border and the "less smart" Hispanics can stay south of the border until such time as we Americans can secure our country.

2 years ago I was working as a mobile fleet mechanic, driving an 8000lb box truck on the highway when 3 drunk individuals from Mexico decided it would be a good idea to stop in the middle of the 2 lanes.I'll skip the details and say that I hit them, narrowly missing 2 cars that had also stopped due to the highway being blocked.The car on the right fled the scene, the car on the left contained a family with 3 small children.I don't like to think about what would have happened if I had hit them.Anyway, 3 days later my boss called the police to get info regarding the drunks in an attempt to get an insurance payment for our totalled truck.He was told "Good luck finding them, they are probably long gone".Meaning that they were more than likely deported with no other consiquenses.Had it been me in that car I would probably still not have my license and more than likely would have spent a good amount of time in jail.Closing our boarders absolutely would protect American citizens.Almost every other country does it, for good reason. :L

without borders you realy don't have a country do you? unfortunatly those elite running this country don't care where the people come from if they can exploit them. cheap labor, votes, more folks dependent upon the government.

constantly nag your state and federal representatives and let them know how you feel about this, or stop pissing and moaning about it because your not serious about the problem.

without borders you realy don't have a country do you? unfortunatly those elite running this country don't care where the people come from if they can exploit them. cheap labor, votes, more folks dependent upon the government.

constantly nag your state and federal representatives and let them know how you feel about this, or stop pissing and moaning about it because your not serious about the problem.
Take a look at the attached letter.
I for one do not sit around pissin and moaning about this situatuion. I get involved.
TheI heard on the news tonight that there is possibly a
plan for terriorist to enter this country through our
southern borders, with the intention of smuggeling
nucluar weapons, that could later be assembled here for
the purpose of distruction within our country.
Living on the west coast, this is especially disturbing
to me, as it should be to every person living west of
the Mississippi.
The politicians have in the past, bent over backwards
to cater to the latino vote by not initiating stronger
policies regarding illegal entry into this country from
the south.
They have all been guilty of that, stating the
countries economic well being is tied to this illegal
imigration, and in fact are seeking some sort of "guest
pass" for people immigrating from the southern borders.
We live in an extremely volital time through out the
world and, countries must take positive steps to
preserve their sovriegnty.
Some have suggested that the national guard be brought
in to help protect our borders from would be terriorist
and, the illegal population crossing our borders.
Some are against these actions but, the one thing we
must all look at with a percing eye is, the terriorist
determination to cause havoc and bloodshed within our
borders.
It is time the politicians worked together to protect
this country.
We have closed borders in foreign countries to stop the
flow of terriorist into them, and it is high time we put
our own citizens here in the forefront.
The borders should be closed immediately, backed up by
the national guard and remain closed until such time
that it is safe to re-open them.
There are thoes that say, closing them will deprive
honest working immigrants of making a decent living and
thoes in business who hire these people will complain
they can't find replacemt labor.
My answer to both groups is plain and to the point.
If this country is the object of a nucular attack
within it's bounderies, it won't mean a rat's ass in a
fishbowl what immigrants and jobs will be lost.
There simply will not be any thing left to complain
about.
We can all sit on our asses and do nothing , and let it
happen or we can mount a strong defense against this
possible threat.
We can say, "oh that will never happen" or we can say
it is high time I get involved and stand up for my
country.
Get in touch with each and every politician you can and
tell them enough is enough.
Panic is not a good thing and, we should never sucumb
to it, but it is vitally important that we mount a
strong defensive to any and all threats, especially if
they are reaching so close to home."
Mr. President, the message above was meant to inform thoes who frequent one of my online message boards.
Politics are the main focus of that board.
The article above is extremely scary.
The borders, especially our southern ones, need to be protected on a scale much more intense than they presently are.
Party partisanship must take a back seat to this ever increasing threat of terriorism so close to this country.
I am calling on you ,( as a American born citizen of this great country) , to stand up and get tough with our border situation, before it is to late.
These threats can not for one minute , be swept under the carpet.
They must be confronted with whatever it takes.
If we can close borders in foreign lands, and spend billions and billions of dollars in defense of terriorism in foreign countries then, we had best put the priorities of this nation, and it's well being at the forefront of our actions.
I call on you as the elected leader of this nation's people, to defend it's sovrienty immediately, against this and future terriorist threats.
The southern border is extremely vunerable to terriorist infiltration and you and thoes who lead our country must take the bull by the horns and develop stratergies that will protect we citizens from attacks now, and in the future.
Pleas Mr. President, I call on you as one citizen amoungst millions, let my voice, and the voices of my fellow citizens, be heard.
Now is not the time for procrastination.
This possibility of terriorist infiltrating our southern borders with the intent of nucular attack should be enough to put us all on the same side, regardless of our political affilation.
We are all americans, and we deserve nothing less than a President ,and a government that understands the enormity of the situation and, the consequences of doing nothing.
Sincerely. Robert Hubbard
5631 Monterey rd
Los Angeles, Ca. 90042 same letter was sent to my represenatives in Washington.

Okay, I will just shut the F**k up now and bow out. I don't want to alienate anyone (especially illegally). I'll just go home now and shrink-wrap my house and take stock of my Cipro inventory.
(Y'all do understand that this post was intended in jest to break up the heat?)
Ha-Ha?

Mr. Hubbard : on your comment about "the jobs that Americans won't take crap" statement in a previous post. Have you or better yet, would you go out and work in a meat processing plant for $6.73 an hour? Would you go out and lay bricks in 100-degree high-humidity summer weather for $7.88 an hour? We're not talking about being a greeter at Wal-Mart for $ 6.17 an hour here.
Oh, and maybe more people would get up off their lazy-asses if our government would stop making it so easy to stay where the welfare recipients are. The current economy situation actually provides the welfare recipient a better advantage to stay home and watch soap operas and mind-numbing talk shows all day than to go and get a job. How is somebody going to even live on the minimum wage alone,(which is what the majority of the job market wants to offer these days.) little yet provide for their children when the welfare state encourages these people that it would just be better off to remainwhere they are at.(I don't even want to get into the issue of childcare expenses) And these people are not all "the scum of the earth" as you'd like to call them.They have families and are pretty much like me and you.(Not every last one,but it is probably the norm.) People should not be threatened with their lives for wanting to have a better life. I can understand some of your concerns on this issue. On the National security issue: did you know there was actually a terrorist plot thwarted on the border of this country in recent years? Around Christmas/New Years 2000/2001 there was a terrorist cell stopped successfully at our border.(The Canadian border near the Seattle/Vancouver areas, that is.) You do have the right to express how you feel on certain issues, and I even admire the fact that you can express your thoughts and feelings so strongly. You have conviction, which is something a lot of people lack in today's society. That's admirable. All I wanted to say on this thread was to think about a few small issues conerning this subject that many people get all bent-out over and put a little sense to them.
Unfortunately, our government has become so corrupted by power and greed that neither the "left"or the "right" can be trusted to get anything done at even a slightly reasonable level anymore. That's how I see it.

:slam I probably need to read all the posts before I respond, don't I? :slam

Oh, and maybe more people would get up off their lazy-asses if our government would stop making it so easy to stay where the welfare recipients are. The current economy situation actually provides the welfare recipient a better advantage to stay home and watch soap operas and mind-numbing talk shows all day than to go and get a job. So true, why work if society says it's OK to be a parasite? Even worse, an idiot for not taking a free ride. It's just tax money, the government just prints it up right?

But the government encourages this, on purpose!

Think about it. If your big on government telling people how to live their lives and spend their money (liberals) what better way to be able to pull their strings than to make them dependent upon you? What self reliant person needs much in the way of a government? Scared ones! Keep'em scared! Terrorist! Communist! Liberals! Illegal Aliens! Big government will protect you!

If you're a state or federal career employee (includes politicians) your importance and pay is based upon the size/importance of your department. So let's say you're a big cheese for HUD, are you realy interested in eliminating demand for your services? Or would the job picture look rosier if more folks are having a hard time getting housing?

The best defense? Live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse.

so buy a Mark VIII and hit the road-start living fast

Fotunately, I don't have to work at Wal-Mart, or any where else for low wages, but were it necessary, I would, if it meant my survival.
Through careful planning in my life, I have sustained a comfortable life.
Certainly not wealthy by any means but, I have been able to do with what I have.
I can understand people living in an oppressed society wanting to better them selves, but what I can't tollerate is the things they do in that quest.
My Farther came to this country from Canada when he was 23 years old.
He did not dis- obey the law comming here.
He went through the steps necessary to become a citizen.
Many others did the same, comming from a different country.
If it was good enough for Him , and the others who did it, then it should be good enough for thoes who want a better life in this country today.
Get in line, just as thoes did at Ellis Island, and wait your turn.
As for the government making it easy for people to collect benefits and other programs, I agree, the government does nothing to discourage it.
The only way that will change is when enough of you get up off you perviable asses and do something about it.
I posted in this thread, and made the comment, "If the government officials don't hear from us, then they have no clue as to what our feelings are on issues".
If you want change, you need to let them know.
Look what has happened in Kiev in the last two days.
The people saw a wrong and made change.
They got involved, and that is the only way change happens.
In this country we have many politicians sitting back on their haunches doing nothing but collecting a big pay check for doing nothing.
Fortunately there is one politician in this country that is truly doing his job.
I did not vote for him but, I am very happy he is at the helm here in the state of California.
Arnold has stated that if the state lawmakers can't come to an agreement on important issues, he will take the cause to the people, and he has done this.
The people are the voice, they have to be heard.
There is far to much complacency amoung the voting public.
We vote these clowns in, expecting they will look out for our interest, when all they are doing is lining their own pockets.
Arnold is the exception.
He lobbied extensively to defeat the "driver's licenses for illegal immigrants" bill.
He knew it was unpopular and knew it would cost him some votes.
Fortunately , he also knew the bill was wrong.
We should never reward someone with good, for doing something wrong.
I will continue to email my government officials, including the commander in chief.
I wish I could convince the rest of you to get as involved.
Every chance I get, I make my views known, where ever I can, be it here in this forum, or other forums, fox news, or, the president himself.
We all have a choice, piss and moan from now till eternity, or, get involved and let your voice be heard.
If you feel as I do on these issues, then speak out, don't sit there in silence and bitch when these government give-away programs are passed.

I've lived on the same street as our souther friends. They don't want to learn to speak english, drink beer like its going out of stile, Here is
the topper 15+ in a 2 bed`room place .

My name is Alfonso Ricardo Navarro
I am a vietnam era vet. :F
I was born in Cuba, My parent's came here legally. I was 1 Y.O.
At 17 I joined the navy.
When I left the navy I applied for a job on the base (Alameda)
I was turned down because I was not a cit.
That SH*T floored me !
while in the Navy I worked on the flight deck of a carrier,
one of the most dangerest jobs in the US.
To this day, I carry my green card (pink now). I am a law abidding Man.
and to this date the only thing that I can't do is:
Vote, Jury duty and get Federal job, that sucks.
The only thing that hurts is the job part.
You say: Why not take the test to become a cit.
F**k it. you try taking the test,
Bet you would fail it without studying.

I also know many alliens, some live in Fresno, Ca. picking apples.
they live in a plywood room (5 of them).
They shower in another plywood hut.
They are young and tired. but they keep doing it, for their families.
What welfare person would do that job ? Someone tell me ! argue2

Then at the other spectrum I know a lady that rented a house and the gov. paid for the deposit and first months rent and she had money left over.
I was mad as hell, with that case.
I also work hard for my money,
and for you to get my hard earned money kills me :Bang

P.S. You can not vote unless your a CIT. So cut the crap about that one :soapbox:

Bravo Zulu for your service shipmate. I have taken a lot of tests in my life to get ahead and I had to study my :q off for everyone of them you sound like a sea lawyer with all this negative non-sense.

I live in the heart of a cuban/puerto rican/mexican culture over here in Tampa, Fl and I know many folks that have studied, taken and passed the exam to be a US citizen and the negative rhetoric you were spinning absolutely undermines all the value your fellow countrymen find in being a citizen.

These are good hard working American's that learn trades, open shops, work for the military and work in the fields. Everyone of these folks earned their privilidge and the rights of a citizen. Obviously you do not see the same value in citizenship as they do.

Buddylee you are way out of line with your over generalization of Latinos. The folks I mentioned above are dedicated to their families and work very hard to provide the best quality of life they can for them. Further, they are just as entitled to unwind like the rest of us. If anything I envy thier connection with their family; we could all benefit from taking a page out of their family values playbook.

It is unfortunate that many have to cohabitate with such a large number of people but ti does not make them any less a person or any less entitled to advancing the prosperity of their family. These folks carry the burden many fat :q ed Americans would not and could not.

Alfonso I implore you to study, take the test and show the buddylees of America what you are capable of.

The reason there are 15 in a 2 bedroom place is because the building manager or owner just sees dollars.
City and state housing laws limit the amount of people that can occupy a unit.
I have seen it all when it comes to rental property.
Over the years I have had to reject many, many people because they didn't meet the qualifications.
I can't tell you how many times I have had someone show up to look at one of my vacant units and try to rent my one bedroom units for 6 or more people.
As for tenant screening, I have in the last couple of years, instituted a policy of demanding papers that substanciate that a person is in this country legally.
I demand that proof from all perspective tenants, regardless of race or country of origin.
Usually the spanish are ther ones that give me flack about it.
I have been accused of discrimination but, the truth is, I treat all applicants exactly the same.
No proof of legal status, no renting any of my units, I don't care where the hell you come from.
I guess the one thing I will never understand is why these illegals(mostly comming from our southern border) won't make any effort to make things better in their own country.
Everyone is aware the Mexican government is about as corrupt as it gets.
If the mexicans comming here illegally spent as much time and effort to straighten out their own country as they do getting here illegally, they would have a prosperous country and would not feel the need to leave.
The country has abundant resources to sustain a prosperous citizenry.
Why these fools comming here illegally can't grasp that fact, is beyond me.
Perhaps it will take a revoloution.
As I recall, there was a country a couple of hundred years ago that had an oppressed society.
The people united and fought for change.
The result was the creation of this great United states of America.
One would think these people to the south would take heed and learn from their neighbor to the north.
Perhaps they feel it is just easier to treck across the border than to rid their own country of the cancer that has overtaken it's government.

The reason there are 15 in a 2 bedroom place is because the building manager or owner just sees dollars.
City and state housing laws limit the amount of people that can occupy a unit.
I have seen it all when it comes to rental property.
Over the years I have had to reject many, many people because they didn't meet the qualifications.
I can't tell you how many times I have had someone show up to look at one of my vacant units and try to rent my one bedroom units for 6 or more people.
As for tenant screening, I have in the last couple of years, instituted a policy of demanding papers that substanciate that a person is in this country legally.
I demand that proof from all perspective tenants, regardless of race or country of origin.
Usually the spanish are ther ones that give me flack about it.
I have been accused of discrimination but, the truth is, I treat all applicants exactly the same.
No proof of legal status, no renting any of my units, I don't care where the hell you come from.
I guess the one thing I will never understand is why these illegals(mostly comming from our southern border) won't make any effort to make things better in their own country.
Everyone is aware the Mexican government is about as corrupt as it gets.
If the mexicans comming here illegally spent as much time and effort to straighten out their own country as they do getting here illegally, they would have a prosperous country and would not feel the need to leave.
The country has abundant resources to sustain a prosperous citizenry.
Why these fools comming here illegally can't grasp that fact, is beyond me.
Perhaps it will take a revoloution.
As I recall, there was a country a couple of hundred years ago that had an oppressed society.
The people united and fought for change.
The result was the creation of this great United states of America.
One would think these people to the south would take heed and learn from their neighbor to the north.
Perhaps they feel it is just easier to treck across the border than to rid their own country of the cancer that has overtaken it's government.


I do not see it as discrimination and I thank you for going the extra mile. Reading your posts reminded me a series of interviews NPR is doing on teh Ms Delta region. It has long been stricken with joblessness due to many manufacturing jobs going over seas and to the South.

At any rate the folks there have just kind of been waiting for someone to come tot them to make their community flourish again but no one has come. In the recent years they have taken ownership for their own prosperity and have been actively making it happen themselves rather than wait for someone to do it for them.

They were all tired of government plans and entitlements and decided to improve their own way of life. You are right Mexicans could just as easily do the same thing in thier own country.

However, we do have an sincere need for laborers in the US but I strongly believe that if they want to work here they need to follow the proper procedures.

Criminals should not be rewarded and illegals are breaking our laws.

Bravo Zulu for your service shipmate. I have taken a lot of tests in my life to get ahead and I had to study my :q off for everyone of them you sound like a sea lawyer with all this negative non-sense.

I live in the heart of a cuban/puerto rican/mexican culture over here in Tampa, Fl and I know many folks that have studied, taken and passed the exam to be a US citizen and the negative rhetoric you were spinning absolutely undermines all the value your fellow countrymen find in being a citizen.

These are good hard working American's that learn trades, open shops, work for the military and work in the fields. Everyone of these folks earned their privilidge and the rights of a citizen. Obviously you do not see the same value in citizenship as they do.

Buddylee you are way out of line with your over generalization of Latinos. The folks I mentioned above are dedicated to their families and work very hard to provide the best quality of life they can for them. Further, they are just as entitled to unwind like the rest of us. If anything I envy thier connection with their family; we could all benefit from taking a page out of their family values playbook.

It is unfortunate that many have to cohabitate with such a large number of people but ti does not make them any less a person or any less entitled to advancing the prosperity of their family. These folks carry the burden many fat :q ed Americans would not and could not.

Alfonso I implore you to study, take the test and show the buddylees of America what you are capable of.

Being an American Citizen dosn't make you a Family man with family values,
My own family growing up showed me how to become a man.
I also have worked hard all of my life. :Bang

My next to last job was in Las Vegas, Caesars Palace, I was a supervisor
Until after Sept. 11th

I have two kids, My girl is 21 and goes to Long beach Unv. guess who's paying for that.
My son is 9 and doing pretty dang good for his age.
The only time that I ever had to applied for unemployment was when a got out of the navy.
I just became unemployed again, but I am not applying,
because I will find a job. they are out there if you look.
But it has nothing to do with being a Citizen.

I am not a sea lawyer, I'm just a man still making my spot in this here crule world.

Thank you for your response, You stood up for my folk's, just as I do....
With out being a Citizen

P.S. Take the Citizen test and see if you pass it. :Beer

Being an American Citizen dosn't make you a Family man with family values,
My own family growing up showed me how to become a man.
I also have worked hard all of my life. :Bang

My next to last job was in Las Vegas, Caesars Palace, I was a supervisor
Until after Sept. 11th

I have two kids, My girl is 21 and goes to Long beach Unv. guess who's paying for that.
My son is 9 and doing pretty dang good for his age.
The only time that I ever had to applied for unemployment was when a got out of the navy.
I just became unemployed again, but I am not applying,
because I will find a job. they are out there if you look.
But it has nothing to do with being a Citizen.

I am not a sea lawyer, I'm just a man still making my spot in this here crule world.

Thank you for your response, You stood up for my folk's, just as I do....
With out being a Citizen

P.S. Take the Citizen test and see if you pass it. :Beer


Never implied that being a citizen makes you a family man; I just defended the value of citizenship. I got the impression that you were knocking the merits of citizenship, somehting I love and appreciate dearly. I too served in the USN and I sailed 2/3 of this globe and witnessed first hand the suffering of many different people.

I did get the sense that you are contributing and have contributed to the well being of this nation. I really wish you would consider becoming a citizen becasue we need all the good folks we can. I am sure that you will continue to do things just as well if not better than you already have; I just think it would really annoy the hell out of folks like buddylee.

PS. I know my coutry's history and I am very comfortable with speaking about the constitution, I can recite the Gettysburg Address, I know geography, culture and language. I would pass that test any day of the week.

America Mi Ogurullo!

Bob,

You're clueless if you think shutting the borders will eliminate the terrorist problem. In case you haven't heard, the FBI and CIA both have evidence that says there are already Arab-Americans (US citizens) terrorists in most US cities with a significant Arab population. So closing the borders won't do much. And I agree, close the North borders. Afterall, you guys don't want an influx of educated, skilled Canadians making US citizens look bad...LOL..... :)

Timothy McVeigh wasn't Arab! and was a US citizen! and was a Terrorist! Or do we call them something else if they are white Americans - So was Theodore Kaczynski (the Unabomber).

More White American Terroism http://www.msnbc.com/modules/clinics/ .

Or what about the KKK or Skin Heads! Do they count as Terrorists!

I would pass that test any day of the week.

I doubt that I would. It's interesting that they let you out of high school without the same knowledge required of immigrants.

My wife tutors all types of students in sign language, math and English as a Second Language. After years as a college professor she finds it much more rewarding. I've listened to what it takes to become proficient in English. Although I speak and write pretty well I know virtually none of the rules.

Why are immigrants held to a much higher standard than we hold our high school graduates?

...setting off weapons that could contain necular properties...


...What it would do is lessen the chances of necular weapons being brought into this country...

Bob...
That's NUCLEAR (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nuclear)
nu·cle·ar

This web site does not have a spellchecker. It is bad form to rip on spelling issues.

This web site does not have a spellchecker. It is bad form to rip on spelling issues.

:I

It's interesting to notice how people will pick on an intangible item to try and discredit someone, in logic it would be considered a Fallacy.

Many of the early members of this site addressed the issue of trying to discredit someone because of a simple spelling mistake.

Bob - Spelling is irrelevant to the point that you are trying to get across. Don't worry about your spelling.

:I

It's interesting to notice how people will pick on an intangible item to try and discredit someone, in logic it would be considered a Fallacy.

Many of the early members of this site addressed the issue of trying to discredit someone because of a simple spelling mistake.

Bob - Spelling is irrelevant to the point that you are trying to get across. Don't worry about your spelling.


I was pointing out a pronunciation issue, has nothing to do with spelling. Heck, our own illustrious Mr. Bush has trouble with that one.


PS, Bob and I go way back, from the days of Crusin' Van Nuys Blvd, hangin' the BA's, "Firetruck"... etc.

It was still bad form. We all knew what he meant.

It was still bad form. We all knew what he meant.

:iconcur:

...We all knew what he meant.

:iconcur:

'nuff said :Beer

I doubt that I would. It's interesting that they let you out of high school without the same knowledge required of immigrants.

My wife tutors all types of students in sign language, math and English as a Second Language. After years as a college professor she finds it much more rewarding. I've listened to what it takes to become proficient in English. Although I speak and write pretty well I know virtually none of the rules.

Why are immigrants held to a much higher standard than we hold our high school graduates?

Barry, the answer to your question is quite simple.
Immigrants have two stigmas that they will never shake free of.
1, By definition, they are immigrants(illegal or not), and being an immigrant means they are in no position to be versed in the laws or history of this country thus, the learning process for them needs to be stricter.
2, The fact that we have such a large population of illegal immigrants , they are, for lack of better terms, grouped into one basket.
If one group of immigrants are here illegally, it is felt (even though it may not be true) all are here illegally.
I would venture to say, that is the thinking of most Americans today.

I doubt that I would. It's interesting that they let you out of high school without the same knowledge required of immigrants.

My wife tutors all types of students in sign language, math and English as a Second Language. After years as a college professor she finds it much more rewarding. I've listened to what it takes to become proficient in English. Although I speak and write pretty well I know virtually none of the rules.

Why are immigrants held to a much higher standard than we hold our high school graduates?


Funny you mention education. Greenspan touched on the decline in our education today on cspan and its impact on the nations economic stability.

He pointed out that k-4 everything seems to be done exceptionally well. 5-12 he pointed out that there has been a great decline in our education system for decades and that we are falling very far behind the international community.

He confessed that no one seems to be able to find the proper metrics to properly measure why. The decline in education seems to have stumped even the brightest policy makers.

I for one stay involved with mychildrens education and challenge them on a daily basis on things they have learned both at home and at school. Based what my neighbors that are teachers in the public school system many parent expect the system to take the lead in education. Our sons teacher expressed similar sentiment.

My wife and I hold ourselves more accountable for our childrens education than the government. I suppose if more parents realized that they need to be and remain involved the outlook would be better.

I have no children so I have no first hand knowledge but I did hear a teacher blame the parents for doing way too much for their children. I never, ever, see kids on bikes getting from point A to point B anymore. The parents schlep them everywhere. The schoolbusses are virtually empty. The young people I employ seem to have no problem solving skills because they never had to do anything for themselves.

Could this be the root of the problem?

I listened to some commentary a few months ago that addressed how parents in recent decades taught or disciplined their children to be more of a team member rather than a team leader. So the culture has been to teach ones child/children to just fall in line rather than be innovative. There has been a compensation of sorts to adjust for the over achievements of the country.

An illegal alien couldn't take my job, so I'm not worried. People who have low paying low skilled need to worry. What businessman wouldn't rather pay $5 a day for a hard worker vs $15 ph for someone who wants vacation and benefits to do farm work?
Plus an illegal alien is a human being and the world is getting smaller. Make yourself better and look out for yourself. If you depend on the gov't, you'll be an angry person. :N

Funny you mention education. Greenspan touched on the decline in our education today on cspan and its impact on the nations economic stability.

He pointed out that k-4 everything seems to be done exceptionally well. 5-12 he pointed out that there has been a great decline in our education system for decades and that we are falling very far behind the international community.

One problem when comparing the US education system to other countries is that by age 12 many countries begin to track their children. Those not making the grade are moved into other programs to get them ready for the labor force. Those who make the grade are promoted to further education.

In the United States we make a K-12 education mandatory for all our children.

Another problem that arises at age 12 and for anyone who has had a teenager it is called an attitude. Now something that many people don't understand is that in a classroom with 25 to 25+ students not all the students want to be their or want to learn. No matter how creative you can be you can't make all of the students learn.

He confessed that no one seems to be able to find the proper metrics to properly measure why. The decline in education seems to have stumped even the brightest policy makers.

Well there is the problem "Policy Makers" (businessmen and women) many of these guys have no clue about what it is like in a school or classroom today. "Policy Makers" are the educated and the ones who wanted to learn. "Policy Makers" don't understand those who don't use their time in school to better themselves. "Policy Makers" look at school children and see them all as the same, small people in school eager to learn and become adults. They don't realize that many children are worried about going home to an empty home with no parent to take care of them and the possibility of no food on the table. They don't realize that many of our school children fear the trip home, or who may be at home to meet them. "Policy Makers” forget to talk to the teachers who work in the schools who really know the children. Even though those liberal teachers who seem to be the scourge of the professional fields understand what is happening in the lives of their students. Teachers today don't only teach they spend more time raising their students than educating them. I can keep going on this but Joey doesn't have enough server space.

Oh and don't forget to throw in the divorce rate!! This is a big factor in the change in education.

I for one stay involved with mychildrens education and challenge them on a daily basis on things they have learned both at home and at school. Based what my neighbors that are teachers in the public school system many parent expect the system to take the lead in education. Our sons teacher expressed similar sentiment.

Brovo! :Beer :wave Not everyone feels that way! And it is funny many who don't are very well to do.

My wife and I hold ourselves more accountable for our childrens education than the government. I suppose if more parents realized that they need to be and remain involved the outlook would be better.

Keep it up and promote your efforts. Also go to your schools, participate in what you can. Support your children in all areas go to their events.

Volunteer at your school! We need all the help we can get.

Wisconsin is cutting the budget big time. School are laying-off teachers and cutting programs to meet the desires of the tax payers to lower their property taxes. Classrooms are becoming over crowded, and with all the issues that our children come to school with the more students in a classroom the less education is present.

Using one example my school district cut teaching positions this year because of budget cuts yet the administration all took $1500 to $2000 raises along with giving their support staff raises. How would that benefit education? Oh, and I haven’t received a raise for 4 years.

We have immigration laws for a reason. Thousands of peoples from around the globe bust their asses and file their paperwork and get less services than illegals. Growing up in one of the most diverse areas in this stupid state, I know because I speak to many legal immigrant citizens who tell me they get put on the backburner because of those here illegally. There have been immigration laws since 1787, and there always will be.

Our insurance rates in this region of Massachusetts are SKY HIGH because of illegals who stage accidents and commit other major crimes. After a huge police and Attorney General crackdown, it was discovered that most of the perpetrators of these felonies were not even legal US citizens. Those convicted of fraud were later deported, but WE are stuck with paying three times the state average becasue of them. So don't sit there and tell me that these criminals don't cause problems and that we should just let them over here.

And why can't they come over here legally? Is it money? NO- I viewed a documentary on illegals in which a woman paid $25,000 to smuggle over her kids; which fortunately failed. A month later, she paid again. Successful that time, but they were caught and later deported. So it's not money...

Either they're too LAZY to fill out all the paperwork and live by the rules, or someone did a little background check and found something that they didn't like and denied them entry to our country.

I don't give a rat's ass what the bleedinghearts say; the law is the law, period. If you don't play by the rules, you are a criminal, period. If you can't come here legally, don't come here at all. There needs no be some serious changes to our immigration polciies; such as a "tainted blood" law; in which children of illegal immigrants are considered illegal like their parents. Healthcare and benefits for illegals needs to be completely severed. Those who knowingly hire illegals to take advangtage of low-cost wages should be jailed, fined, and their businesses and other assets seized and auctioned.

I'm glad states like New Hampshire have begun to crack down on illegals. NH is charging criminals who are here illegally with criminal tresspassing charges, and of course, the liars in the monkey suits from the ACLU are there to back the illegals. Shame.

Lets not talk, lets send them back!

Those who knowingly hire illegals to take advangtage of low-cost wages should be jailed, fined, and their businesses and other assets seized and auctioned.


:I But....... GWB would rather re-classify them as "guest workers", reward the employers and put AMERICANs out of work. WTF??

:I But....... GWB would rather re-classify them as "guest workers", reward the employers and put AMERICANs out of work. WTF??

Yeah I absolutely do not approve of his handling of the illegals reffering to them as undocumented workers HA. If it crosses the fence like an illegal, obtains conterfit SS# like an illegal and evades immigration like an illegal by God it is an illegal. No grandfathering in and no coming back to try again.

Go through the proper procedures or do not pass go.

One problem when comparing the US education system to other countries is that by age 12 many countries begin to track their children. Those not making the grade are moved into other programs to get them ready for the labor force. Those who make the grade are promoted to further education.

Wow I did not know that. Man if that were to ever happen here good grief the fallout.


Another problem that arises at age 12 and for anyone who has had a teenager it is called an attitude. Now something that many people don't understand is that in a classroom with 25 to 25+ students not all the students want to be their or want to learn. No matter how creative you can be you can't make all of the students learn.

Yeah once they feel they do not want to or have to learn you will be hard pressed to tell them otherwise. Just look at the fit a 2-3 yr old can through.



Well there is the problem "Policy Makers" (businessmen and women) many of these guys have no clue about what it is like in a school or classroom today. "Policy Makers" are the educated and the ones who wanted to learn. "Policy Makers" don't understand those who don't use their time in school to better themselves. "Policy Makers" look at school children and see them all as the same, small people in school eager to learn and become adults. They don't realize that many children are worried about going home to an empty home with no parent to take care of them and the possibility of no food on the table.

Yeah by the time a caring person makes it into politics they have been long removed from what they started out to improve


They don't realize that many of our school children fear the trip home, or who may be at home to meet them. "Policy Makers” forget to talk to the teachers who work in the schools who really know the children. Even though those liberal teachers who seem to be the scourge of the professional fields understand what is happening in the lives of their students. Teachers today don't only teach they spend more time raising their students than educating them. I can keep going on this but Joey doesn't have enough server space.

My neighbors that teach have told me stories of having to either fear a child due to behavioral issues or have had to report apparent abuse of a child. One neighbor has become a foster parent and takes in children that are currently being held by the state while the parent gets his/her life back on track.

Some children never go back to the parents and end up in multitudes of foster homes and if they are lucky become adopted.

Even the process' of protecting children often end up being abusers f children.


Oh and don't forget to throw in the divorce rate!! This is a big factor in the change in education.

I can speak from experience from this. My brother and I were raised by my mother and our father never contributed anything not money, clothing, food or emotional support. It was tough for all three of us. It seems men get to get away with these selfish acts way too often. Even when the court orders it as in the case of our household.

These biological contributors need to be held accountable. Sometimes it is the mothers and they too need to be held accountable.



Brovo! :Beer :wave Not everyone feels that way!

Thanks for the applause but my reward is in knowing that I am doing everything I can as a parent to make sure they turn out right.


And it is funny many who don't are very well to do.[QUOTE]

Yeah just look at teh TV for an hour and you will hear about some star, politician or athlete that either has gotten into trouble or have children that their nannies have raised have wound up in trouble. even the affluent are at risk.

It all comes down to personal responsibility for ones actions.


[QUOTE=mespock]
Keep it up and promote your efforts. Also go to your schools, participate in what you can. Support your children in all areas go to their events.

Volunteer at your school! We need all the help we can get.

I intend too! I have volunteered to attend field trips, take children to the library and do classroom readings.



Wisconsin is cutting the budget big time. School are laying-off teachers and cutting programs to meet the desires of the tax payers to lower their property taxes. Classrooms are becoming over crowded, and with all the issues that our children come to school with the more students in a classroom the less education is present.

Using one example my school district cut teaching positions this year because of budget cuts yet the administration all took $1500 to $2000 raises along with giving their support staff raises. How would that benefit education? Oh, and I haven’t received a raise for 4 years.

I have a very good friend that double majored in math and education and he too is having a hard time find a fulltime teaching opportunity. He has even submitted applications to schools in the least favorable districts. Here is a guy commited to teaching and he cannot find a job. The most he has gotten are fill in spots. Today he is delivering pizza! WTF is wrong with this world?


It sounds like you are well connected to education and possibly a teacher. I thank you and hope you do not get discouraged and quit.

And why can't they come over here legally? Is it money? NO- I viewed a documentary on illegals in which a woman paid $25,000 to smuggle over her kids; which fortunately failed. A month later, she paid again. Successful that time, but they were caught and later deported. So it's not money...

I highly doubt there is any truth in that. 50 grand? You think someone would pay that much just to bypass the hassle of filling out some documents? What country did they come from, were they like Saudi Arabian aristocrats or something?

I'm currently studying at UofC on my way to becoming an internist, so my perspective might be a little different since my job wouldnt be at risk, but I still think I have a valid opinion. How do you suppose we fix the problem? Kick them all out? It may sound good, but it's just not realistic. The first thing we have to do is get serious about border control, with extensive reform. I'm sure some of these low paying bussiness have an interest in letting illegals get through, so they could take advantage of the cheap labor. I agree with you about having these employers pay large fines and even possible jail time. As for those that are allready here, I heard of a bill coming out that would legalize a percentage of them who: are paying taxes, lived here a certain amount of time, and can pass an english comprehension test. They would also pay a 2000 fine and all back taxes. As you can see, that would generate billions of dollars for the government, which could be put into border control and efforts to deport the ones that don't meet the requirements to be legalized. Let's not forget that some of them should be allowed to stay, for instance I have read and actually know of someone that have been brought here when they were small kids, with no choice, and are not allowed any basic privileges we take for granted, like driving or attending college.

I highly doubt there is any truth in that. 50 grand? You think someone would pay that much just to bypass the hassle of filling out some documents? What country did they come from, were they like Saudi Arabian aristocrats or something?


It wasn't a total of $50,000, it was a total of $25,000. She was from Mexico. The documentary aired on CNN earlier this year.

I will admit up front to being a little less educated on the matter than some who have posted. But I know enough to make a couple points of my own.

My real big beef isn't with people who enter illegally, and then become legal, people who want to participate in the american way. People who want to be productive.

My beef are with two groups of people. Two groups that often overlap.

1) Those who come in illegally and then stay illegal.

My understanding of this situation is that Mexican law says that if you become a citizen of another nation, you lose your mexican citizenship. And what we consider poor, they consider rich. A man who saves up over his working years here a mere, say, $20,000 can go down to Mexico, and live it up style.

So what a lot of people are doing is finding menial jobs, living 20 to a house so that they can afford the house between the 20 incomes, and sending all their free money down to Mexico so that part of it can be used to improve the lives of their families, and part of it can be saved for their return. They come in here, get jobs, funnel all the money to mexico, then come retirement time, they return to the motherland wealthy.

Hmm, that doesn't sound so wrong, does it? Well, there's more to consider.

There is some truth to the whole "illegals stealing jobs" bit in that no, most comfy anglos wouldn't work hoeing cabbage for $6.00/hr. -BUT- were it not for the ready availability of illegal workers, that $6.00/hr job would be paying $12.00/Hr, and then suddenly you'd have more vanilla farm equipment. And that's also creating a ripple effect. The standard of living is going down, partially because of illegal immigrants.

Another problem with the illegal remainers is that none of what they make stays in our country. Sure, there's income tax, and sales tax, and sometimes property tax, but that's it. All the money they make that doesn't get exhausted on sustaining themselves goes down south.

The ugly truth of that is they are making parasites of themselves. They are robbing from America to support Mexico. They are leeching themselves and draining the blood. I've heard that the #2 source of revenue for Mexico is American incomes. If that's true, then this scenario I've just painted cannot possibly be a once in a while thing, but an epidemic! They're not contributing, they're cyphoning!

2) Those who refuse to learn the language, and expect us to learn theirs.

I've used this analogy once before on this forum and once before on another, but I think it's sooo effective:

"When you are in someone's house, you play by their rules. You don't come in and rearrange all of their furniture." -What do you think of that? I like it.

Well, imagine someone doing that to you in your house. How would you feel?! Well, lets take it one step further. Suppose their in your house uninvited? Imagine. Someone just walks through your back door, throught your entire house. Takes your bed and puts it in the kitchen, takes your stove and puts in your bathroom. Thinks it'd be great to put the toilet smack dab in the middle of your garage. (suspend disbelief for just one second) and fastens your car to your living room ceiling. Then has balls to yell to the misses "From now on, we will all take cream and sugar in our coffee! Wench!" Wouldn't you just be floored?! Well, imagine the cops come in, look at you, the flabergasted, violated home owner, then look over at the intruder lounging on the newly positioned filing cabinet and says to the intruder "here, let me help you", as he tips over your collection of fine china and sends it crashing to the floor?!

Well, that's basically what's happening in america. Many (though not all) of these illegals (uninvited house guests) are coming over and finding a little corner that they can establish themselves in, and then refuse to adapt to life in america (playing by the rules of the house) instead, they try to adapt america to themselves (rearranging the furniture) Their wanting america on their terms (Coffee! Now! With Salsa in it!) And politicians on the left (the cops) are trying to pass all these laws like making spanish the official language of america and all these rights for illegals, driver's licenses for illegals, free healthcare for illegals, happy easter cakes baked with love by the government and delivered to the front door of every illegal yada yada yada (siding with the intruder) and some of them are passing! (trashing the china cabinet) And the american citizenry at large (comprised of all races, incomes, ages, and genders) are the flabergasted, violated home owners who are forced to just watch all of this happen!

Now, the political right is guilty too, but in a different way. Both are after the votes and both are sacrificing integrity to acheive the votes (nothing new) but while the left is erring in that they are taking action to accomodate, the right is erring in not taking action to stop said accomodation. The left is guilty of action, and the right is guilty of innaction. All for the sake of votes.

Now, I've spoke so long of my grievances and concerns, I would like to clarify about a couple of things that do NOT bother me.

1)Legal Hispanics. They are of immense value to our country and their culture has helped shape our culture, but has never tried to trump it.

2)Illegals here working to become legal, working to become a permanent, contributing member of our society. My Uncle Eric married a cuban illegal 15yrs ago and she is legal and has been contributing to our society ever since. And despite the fact that they live in a spanish speaking neighborhood in queens NY, and my uncle speaks fluent spanish, and she could survive without needing to learn english, she did anyway and uses it every chance she gets.

And there are a lot like her. I have no beef with them except that they didn't come here legally, but in my mind, becoming legal is restitution enough so long as they contribute, and if you're gonna generalize hispanic people, you generalize them as very hard workers.

Now, about the border. I feel that they should make it harder for illegals to get in. Wait, even the ones who are working to become legal, permanent and productive? Yes, because by my estimation, the ones working on legality are in the minority, and you can't distinguish between the two at the border, so better to stop a few good ones in the name of stopping a whole bunch of bad ones, then to allow in a few good ones in at the expense of letting a whole bunch of bad ones in.

Should we resort to killing? Only as an absolute last resort. If it comes to it, then it comes to it, but I'm not sure that we've got to that point just yet and I would want to make absolutely certain that we have exhausted all other means of combatting illegal immigration.

On the terrorism thing. Bottling up the southern border is certainly not going to defeat all terrorism aimed at the U.S. But it does cut off one channel that it could be administered through. And cutting one leg off a centipede is better than not cutting one leg off a centipede.

One last thing. I'm convicted of something. Here I am saying that we need to stop these intruders from ruining our way of life, yet we are the decendents of those who ruined the lives of the native americans.... I'm not quite sure what to do with that.

There.. I am finished. (exhales)

Well said. Thoughtfully laid out and presented.

Well said. Thoughtfully laid out and presented.

By golly :iconcur:

Wow, nicely presented argument but theres one problem, you said that the number of illegals that are working toward becoming legal are in the minority. Well consider the fact that the only way they can become legal is through marriage and this is no suprise. That is why I said we need a program that would legalize these people if they meet certain requirements. Like I said, slap these people with a 2-3k fine and back taxes. At least this way they could have another option and wouldnt have to resort to marriage to get documents. This would also change the number of illegals sending money over the border, because more would become contributing members of our society.

Wow, nicely presented argument but theres one problem, you said that the number of illegals that are working toward becoming legal are in the minority. Well consider the fact that the only way they can become legal is through marriage and this is no suprise. That is why I said we need a program that would legalize these people if they meet certain requirements. Like I said, slap these people with a 2-3k fine and back taxes. At least this way they could have another option and wouldnt have to resort to marriage to get documents. This would also change the number of illegals sending money over the border, because more would become contributing members of our society.

sounds reasonable.

Wow, nicely presented argument but theres one problem, you said that the number of illegals that are working toward becoming legal are in the minority. Well consider the fact that the only way they can become legal is through marriage and this is no suprise. That is why I said we need a program that would legalize these people if they meet certain requirements. Like I said, slap these people with a 2-3k fine and back taxes. At least this way they could have another option and wouldnt have to resort to marriage to get documents. This would also change the number of illegals sending money over the border, because more would become contributing members of our society.

sounds reasonable.


:I and not only do :I but :iconcur: :)

But as I opened up my monster post with, I'm not as well versed as some here on the issue, or parts of it, at least. And I was under the impression that there were other ways to become legal. To become a citizen. This new truth (new to me, anyway) doesn't really change my stance on anything, it just strengthens some and weakens some to accomodate the new data. It means that a lesser percentage than I thought are working to become legal. That only makes me madder on the issue than I was. It makes me more fervent on some things, but doesn't really reverse any decisions.

But your solution does sound good. You do realise that many of the illegals that are given the option to stay will still leave anyway under that progran. A lot of them will no longer have a purpose here if they can't return to mexico as a rich mexican citizen . And a lot may not be able to afford the 2k, 3k penalty, unless, of course, the government is willing to take installements. But a system like that would be nice. It'd keep the people who would do their best to do their part to rebuild america, and eliminate those who played a major part is dragging it down.

The only other thing we'd need to keep it effective, would be effective border control, so those planted back on their butts in mexico would not be able to just scuttle on over. of course, if not by land then by sea. I wonder what would happen to the entire east and west coast if the land border was succesfully blocked.

Thank for the compliments on the last post, guys! :)

Most of the people posting on this subject(especially the last person posting) all have some sort of plan to smooth over the immigration problem by allowing some to stay if they"pay".
I say horse:q:q:q:q.
Stem the flow so that no more are able to get here, and my get tough policy of shoot to kill, is the only thing that will realistically work.
These illegals are just like cochroaches.
Kill enough of them and the news spreads like wildfire.
Our government has been far to linient with these law breakers.
Kill enough of them at the border, and the rest will get the messageto stay home.
If I were a governor in any of the southern border states, the national guard would already be there in force, and shooting to kill.

Most of the people posting on this subject(especially the last person posting) all have some sort of plan to smooth over the immigration problem.

So, how did you get here?

Vitas, you need to be a little more specific with your question.
Do you mean how did I arrive at this thread or, how did I get to this country?
Bob.

Vitas, you need to be a little more specific with your question.
Do you mean how did I arrive at this thread or, how did I get to this country?
Bob.

Please figure it out for yourself.

Well as for being here in this country, I was born in Massachusetts and both my parents were citizens at the time of my birth.
As for being included in this thread, I usually have something to say if the subject matter is controversal.
Bob.

C'Mon, Bob. You know what he's trying to say. We've all done a pretty good job so far of not getting heated and petty on a subject that just invites blood boiling. Lets not ruin that now.

I'm not sure I'm republican enough to get behind playing shoot em up, but I'm definitely not democrat enough to say shut up and eat your burrito. Oh, wait, wait, excuse me, callate y comerte su burrito! Ole! (what was I thinking?!)

Letting the "cockroaches" just run and ruin our country is absolutely not an option, I agree, but lets not be too hasty to drop the bug bomb or call in the orkin man. Some of these people want to be legal, and some of these people will be valuable contributors to this country, many are making it worse, sure, but some would make it better. We need to find a way to get the bad out without kicking out the good, however even the good did a wrong to get here, so they should be fined, and then be allowed to contribute.

What's so wrong with that, or are you just itching to use the can of bug spray you've been eyeballing for the past 50 years? Remember Bob, that there was once upon a time, a guy who wanted to remove an entire group of people by violence. Yeah, I think he was from Germany or something like that.

"M and L", Letting those who are already here, stay, is somewhat of a forgone conclusion.
It would be just about impossible to round them up and send them back.
If there were a way to do it, I would certainly endorse it but, that is wishful thinking.
What bothers me mostly is the fact that my dad went through all the proper chanels, as did millions of others, to enter this country legally and, It really burns my ass to see these low lifes get here by unlawful means, only to be rewarded by doing so.
It makes a mochary of our laws and justice system, let alone the drain on millions of law abiding tax payers.
At this point, it is more important to stop the flow into this country than it is to deal with the ones who are already here.
I am not in favor of any amnesty programs for those here however, because that only creates an atmosphere for more to enter the country illegally.
I am a stonch beliver in getting tough at the border and if it takes an armed national guard with orders to shoot to kill, then so be it.
I see nothing on the horizon being offered to stop the illegal flow from our southern border.
Getting tough is not an option, it is now a necessity.
Bob.

Well as for being here in this country, I was born in Massachusetts and both my parents were citizens at the time of my birth.
As for being included in this thread, I usually have something to say if the subject matter is controversal.
Bob.

I was also born in Massachusetts.

My parents came over on the boat in 1950, sponsored.

I remember in the 1999-2000 period when people willing to work showed up here and did the job. At a time when workers could not be found.

Are you suggesting that we simply used them, and now ship them back?

Getting tough is not an option, it is now a necessity.
Bob.


You may be right. But I just hate the idea of killing anyone who's not trying to kill us. (some would argue they are, I know.) I guess I'm not willing to back up a shoot em up program until I'm sure that all other alternatives have been exhausted. And I'm not quite sure we've gotten to that point. I just hate killing. It may come to it, but I still think it's too soon. Maybe it's just that little guy in my coat pocket that is the liberal in me piping up, but there's just got to be another way.

But I just hate the idea of killing anyone who's not trying to kill us.

Who said they were trying to kill us?

Who said they were trying to kill us?


I never said that they were trying to kill us, what I said was "someone who's -not- trying to kill us." What I meant by the "some may say they are" bit was the idea that they're dragging us down and slowly destroying our country, but even then, that makes the "killing us" comment figurative and not literal.

Off the wall comment:

Sometimes they were there when we needed them.

Letting the "cockroaches" just run and ruin our country is absolutely not an option, I agree, but lets not be too hasty to drop the bug bomb or call in the orkin man. Some of these people want to be legal, and some of these people will be valuable contributors to this country, many are making it worse, sure, but some would make it better. We need to find a way to get the bad out without kicking out the good, however even the good did a wrong to get here, so they should be fined, and then be allowed to contribute.

Good point.

As far as border control goes, I don't think theres a need to turn the border into a killing zone. Whos going to endorse a policy like that anyway? What we need is one or two highly publicized shootings so the word goes out that they will be shot if they try to cross. There are ways to secure the border, but it's going to take a lot more money. Another way to limit immigration would be to really go after the employers of these people.

Bob,

I would agree that we need strong borders. I'd even go for extreme enforcement. Our resources are ill spent on non-contributing members of society. A large problem I see is that a lot of illegals are part of the underground "cash economy" that is doing more to rob this country than all the illegals combined. Cash=No income tax. No income tax=no replentishment of consumed resources. Illegals and tax cheats are a double whammy to our pocket books.

A huge amount of that problem would go away with a National Sales Tax. The NST would be paid on only what you spend. Cash would no longer be king as you would retain the right to spend it, or save it. Your choice. Illegals would then be paying their fair share.

The State tax collectors in Michigan are very efficient. They just broke up a group of related Chinese restaurant owners who were significantly underreporting their income, fraudulantly reducing their tax liability and pocketing our tax dollars. I would vote for much stronger tax collection guidelines and enforcement for merchants and reducing the reporting burden of the people. No tax returns. No IRS.

It wouldn't matter how you got your money. You could be a prostitute or preacher, both relying on cash donations. You could be a tradesman who takes cash and it wouldn't matter where you got your money from. Besides, I don't think it's the government's business to know where I get my money as long as I pay my fair share.

That's what this rant is all about, contributing your fair share to society.

Well what more can I say!

I seen a report on the enws today that was interesting. Seems a California company has developed a robotic orange picker. The cost is just over 300k Dollars. If farmers can be lured to this product Americans will score some high tech jobs and some illegals will loose some. It can work longer and through harsh conditions, has sensors to choose the fruit at the right time and is more efficient. The tide could be changing.

Have u ever read "The peter principle"? explained a lot 2 me.

Never heard of the peter principal.
What is it?
Could you give a little information about it without going into a lot of detail?
Bob.

All of this emphasis on illegal immigrants from the South what about all of those coming from Europe? And Asia? what about them sucking our country dry? No mention of them ... sounds like a lot of you are focusing on Latinos...i am a Los Angeles County Public Social Worker.... i deal with determining eligibility for participants who apply for foodstamps, medical etc. i can tell you that most of the people applying are from different ethnic backgrounds ... my point is this most of the "illegal Latino immigrants who apply are only eligible for benefits because they have linkage thru their US BORN CHILDREN...now these illegal participants are working people who most of the time have two jobs and are getting paid peanuts. these people come embarrassed when they come and ask for benefits, most of the time the women come by themselves, and i tell them that their husbands of boyfriends need to come in to get fingerprinted and they tell me that they don't know that they are here. they have to much pride to go ask for help. they still end up coming in, not to happy. we then have Asian immigrants who have businesses here in the US and are still asking for public assistance they lie on their income taxes and claim little profit, and what do i have to do...give them the freaking stamps or medi-cal ... they lie all over the application and still manage to get the benefits.. now that's not right and i cant do anything about it its their word ... then we have US Citizen participants no particular race, who are not working, ask for help, don't comply with the workfare requirements and keep leeching on the public assistance money. they have attitudes and act like we owe them something ... get off your asses and work for that $6.75 at mcdonalds or something... i agree that there should be some type of work program for the immigrants ... that way they can get legal licenses, which turns out to be profitable for the government if you think about it ... they would pay for car insurance (no more uninsured motorist) they would pay their taxes..ect

Bob,

I would agree that we need strong borders. I'd even go for extreme enforcement. Our resources are ill spent on non-contributing members of society. A large problem I see is that a lot of illegals are part of the underground "cash economy" that is doing more to rob this country than all the illegals combined. Cash=No income tax. No income tax=no replentishment of consumed resources. Illegals and tax cheats are a double whammy to our pocket books.

A huge amount of that problem would go away with a National Sales Tax. The NST would be paid on only what you spend. Cash would no longer be king as you would retain the right to spend it, or save it. Your choice. Illegals would then be paying their fair share.

The State tax collectors in Michigan are very efficient. They just broke up a group of related Chinese restaurant owners who were significantly underreporting their income, fraudulantly reducing their tax liability and pocketing our tax dollars. I would vote for much stronger tax collection guidelines and enforcement for merchants and reducing the reporting burden of the people. No tax returns. No IRS.

It wouldn't matter how you got your money. You could be a prostitute or preacher, both relying on cash donations. You could be a tradesman who takes cash and it wouldn't matter where you got your money from. Besides, I don't think it's the government's business to know where I get my money as long as I pay my fair share.

That's what this rant is all about, contributing your fair share to society.



i always thought that would be a good idea... question? why do we in essence pay double taxes? we get our wages taxed ( federal and state) then we pay state taxes on goods we purchase... then we still need to pay IRS some more?