Bought a 2003 diff w/ 3.58 to swap in my 01, has anyone done this before?

Just pulled the 01 diff out...

When comparing the 03 diff to the 01 the cases are different. THe 01 is wider (from axle inlet to axle inlet) than the 03. By about an .5-1 inch. SO i am a little worried. All of the mounting points are exactly the same, so mouting it will not be a problem, but im worried about the axle shafts being in the right place and sealing. Any thoughts???

I know that an 04 Thunderbird diff will work on an LS (a member has done it) but i thought there was no difference from teh LS to the thunderbirds...

sent you a PM

Post the outcome.

Jason,

The 2003 Diff will not work in our cars. 02V8Sport accidently told me an 04 went into his car when it was actually an 02 Diff from a t-bird(that had the 3.58) So, tomorrow im going back to Waukesha to return the 03 diff, then possibly going to elgin to pick up a 99 LS diff, or 02 t-bird diff. Which then should fit.

I have the car at a friends right now, driveashaft zip-tied up and axles sitting, waiting.

So, 03-06 difs will not fit 1st gen LS's, end of story. Axles are beefier on the 2nd gen models. However, the gears can be swapped from any year, for they are all 8" ring and pinions.

Are any of the diffs limited slips.

Are any of the diffs limited slips.
None of the factory differentials used in the LS or the DEW-98 T-Bird were limited slip. I don't know about the Jags, but I don't think they had one, either.

so the T-birds came out with 3:58's? what year T-bird can I get these gears from a 2000-2002 am I right? Im also assuming, that ones the gears are upgraded the computer needs to be reflashed, and thats where the X-cal comes into play right?

I made a mistake when telling Devilsh my diff in my old 02 LS was out of an 04 T-bird, since that is what they yard told me it was out of when I bought it from them. It was actually out of a 02 T-bird.

For the 00-02 LS you can use the late 99/early 00 diffs which have the 3.58 or the 2002 T-Birds only.

The 03+ Tbird and 03+ LS's have a different carrier. and only interchange between the 03+ years.

I figured Devilsh would change the ring and pinion gears if the diffs were not the same dimensions, thats why I figured he would have been safe with getting the 03 diff I recommended to him. Devilsh just wants a full swap out and not mess with the diff internals and I didnt know that at first.

Sorry for the mixup Devilsh.

I also did this mod almost 2 years ago so things were fuzzy to me:
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=11970&highlight=3.58

No problem,

I went to Southbend IN(3 hour drive each way) and picked up a 2000 LS 3.58 diff yesterday for 200$. We got it in last night at around midnight and After getting some gas went to test it out.

All I can say is this is probably the best 200 dollars i've ever spent! 1st and 2nd dont show much of a durastic change, but third is very strong. VERY STRONG. 1st and 2nd are also a little shorter and 3rd comes in around 50 instead of right by sixty. (in D5mode) But third is the moeny gear. From about 60-95(right before 4th) this car MOVES OUT! very strong acceleration.

The diff went in pretty easy it took us about 4hours to get the old one out but only about 45 min to ge thtis one in. I had to remove my exahust, unbolt the middle driveshaft bracket, and loosen the suspension a lil to ease the install, but evreything works, and man does it wokr nice.

Jason, you may want to think about doing this.. BUt ill let you see mine whenever we hit up GLD so you can check/compare the gears to see if it will help.

-Devin

Im glad to hear that! The guy in Elgin didnt work out?

When you and Jason go up to GLD I want to meet you guys up there with my 04.

Where is GLD? You guys aren't too far from me, I have only been to Route 66 which is like 15 minutes away from me(New Lenox)

Fff

Great Lakes Dragway in Wisco

Any noticeable difference in fuel mileage on the highway? I would magine the engine runs a few hundred rpm higher at 60mph. 200 bucks aint a bad investment for seat of your pants noticeable gains. :p
Now we just gotta see some times!

Is there an LSD offered for these cars from the aftermarket? One-wheel peels are always lame.

Thanks,

Is there an LSD offered for these cars from the aftermarket? One-wheel peels are always lame.

Thanks,

None of the factory differentials used in the LS or the DEW-98 T-Bird were limited slip. I don't know about the Jags, but I don't think they had one, either.

already been answered...
I would like a LSD as well, but have yet to find any info about one.

That answers the factory LSD offering. The aftermarket is what I asked about.

Glad its together and workin well.

I'm up for the track, name when.

I'm hoping for a 1-1.5mph and .04-.06 sec. gain in the 1/8.

1.5-2mph and 1-1.5 sec gain in the 1/4.

That would make my Gen1 as fast as the Fastest Gen2...N/A. I think their gearing advantage is about all they have on mine now.

Actually I think you guys mean Traction Loc as Ford calls it. GM uses the Posi-Traction name. Powers both wheels when loaded. Limited slips don't.

No aftermarket made that anyone has discovered. The ring and pinion arrangement of the old 8" Ford is likely different by design...would a aftermarket Traction-Loc for that work??? Doubt it.

Actually I think you guys mean Traction Loc as Ford calls it. GM uses the Posi-Traction name. Powers both wheels when loaded. Limited slips don't.

No aftermarket made that anyone has discovered. The ring and pinion arrangement of the old 8" Ford is likely different by design...would a aftermarket Traction-Loc for that work??? Doubt it.

If you gonna go aftermarket, I don't think anyone makes a differential for LS that could be swapped.
I think if you wanna put it apart and change the gears that would not be a problem to do.
I remember someone in LLSOC getting TORSEN gears to put into LS differential but I didn't stick around long enough to see results, if any (not that is impossible, but just not done).

Anyway how are you gonna fix the speedometer error?
I know XCal can't do it on my car cuz I compared my speed with my portable GPS unit, roadside radar that shows your speed and there was no change when reflashing PCM with different values.
Maybe there is another gear that can swapped so a PCM gets a correct signal to show speed, if possible

Anyway how are you gonna fix the speedometer error?
Changing the gears won't affect the speedo; the LS pulls the speed data from the ABS sensors, which are after the gears. Changing the overall tire diameter would affect the speedo, but not changing gearing.

BTW, the LLSOC Torsen project is under way, but it's sitting in the project queue of the guy who has it now.

Yeah I belive Lous has the Torsen diff sitting in an LS case, they just need ot finalize it... Hmm may be an idea for my old diff sitting around.

Speedo has cause dno problems that i know of, like Sooner said, LS runs off abs sensors. The XCAL2 has an axle ratio adjustment anyway, adam you still have the orig xcal right?

And as for my peg-leg burnouts... Well its actully been a long time since only one of my tires have spun. The car DOES NOT have an LSD but I frequently get both to spin... I love it when the car slides out to the right when standing stil

02V8Sport, The guy in Elgin wanted 400 for the t-bird diff, and 500!!!!! for the 2000 LS. My friend tried to bargain with him, and he wouldnt budge, not even for 300 for the t-bird. SO when ended the phone conversation with "good luck selling that thing for 500, and good luck staying in business" haha

Changing the gears won't affect the speedo; the LS pulls the speed data from the ABS sensors, which are after the gears. Changing the overall tire diameter would affect the speedo, but not changing gearing.

BTW, the LLSOC Torsen project is under way, but it's sitting in the project queue of the guy who has it now.

Any idea of a part number or something of the TORSEN gears?
What do I need know about differential in LS to replace the gears with at least LSD type gears?

$400-500 for these diffs is just nuts!! Ive seen them a low as $100 in various parts of the country. Im glad you found one for a good price.

Yep - the Torsen is here......

I'm waiting on shims.

so sexy......

Lou, will you be writing up anything, like a list, of all parts/costs needed. Now that I have an old 3.31 lying around...HMMM

right - the idea would be a DIY project - so setting backlash and pre-load is the challenge....

The Torsen is limited slip correct? :shifty:
That will certainly be on my to do list, if so...

yeah its LSD, and has 3.73's drooooooool

:runaway: :wrench :bowrofl:
Friggin sweet!

That would be worthy of a sticker on my car to advertise it... (and I HATE stickers) :p

Yep - the Torsen is here......

I'm waiting on shims.

Love it!

Stock gear sets used on the Quick?

Yep - the Torsen is here......

I'm waiting on shims.

Quik, I know this is an old post. Any info on where that Torsen came out of? For my project I need something with clutches inside -- Torsens act too funky when one wheel becomes partially unloaded.

It's a Torsen T-2 ('99 Cobra, 28 spline fitment) from Reider Racing. They also offered a T-2R, which is a more aggressive "racing" version.

http://www.reiderracing.com/zexeltorsen.htm

I have not yet set the pre-load or back lash yet - so there is still a fair amount of fiddling with shims...

It's a Torsen T-2 ('99 Cobra, 28 spline fitment) from Reider Racing. They also offered a T-2R, which is a more aggressive "racing" version.

http://www.reiderracing.com/zexeltorsen.htm

I have not yet set the pre-load or back lash yet - so there is still a fair amount of fiddling with shims...

So I'm guessing this means that the various clutch type 8.8 28-spline diffs would work? Stuff like this:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=221

This begs the somewhat obvious question -- what are you using for output flanges (I come from a different world where the output or side flange is what plugs into the differential housing, if there's some other term here in the Lincoln world)?

I'm pulling together a lot of info here. Thanks for everyone's help. Just need to figure out suspension!

So I'm guessing this means that the various clutch type 8.8 28-spline diffs would work? Stuff like this:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=221

This begs the somewhat obvious question -- what are you using for output flanges (I come from a different world where the output or side flange is what plugs into the differential housing, if there's some other term here in the Lincoln world)?

I'm pulling together a lot of info here. Thanks for everyone's help. Just need to figure out suspension!

Problem I see and seem to find when talking with people, when bolting the 8.8 internals into the LS case a 8.0 you have a pinion depth problem. A 8.8 case is about a little longer in the pinion area which makes sense as the pinion location is likely moved out/forward .4". Meaning that the pinion shaft itself, case or bearings would have to be modified, potentially weaking the unit and design all together. Perheps weaker than the 8.0 stock unit.

I will have my built diff in hand today or tommorrow with the Ford Racing Traction Lock and 4.10s installed. I'm using a MarkVIII aluminum housing and installing that into the car. My driveshaft (technically I bought a extra) will be modified to bolt to the MarkVIII (very common style) flange. This will eliminte one of the 2 ridiculous rubber driveshaft grommets our power transfers to the wheels though on the LS.

Few weeks from bolt in day.

Problem I see and seem to find when talking with people, when bolting the 8.8 internals into the LS case a 8.0 you have a pinion depth problem. A 8.8 case is about a little longer in the pinion area which makes sense as the pinion location is likely moved out/forward .4". Meaning that the pinion shaft itself, case or bearings would have to be modified, potentially weaking the unit and design all together. Perheps weaker than the 8.0 stock unit.

I will have my built diff in hand today or tommorrow with the Ford Racing Traction Lock and 4.10s installed. I'm using a MarkVIII aluminum housing and installing that into the car. My driveshaft (technically I bought a extra) will be modified to bolt to the MarkVIII (very common style) flange. This will eliminte one of the 2 ridiculous rubber driveshaft grommets our power transfers to the wheels though on the LS.

Forgive my ignorance as I'm very new to my LS research.

When you say you're going to use a MarkVIII housing, does this bolt to the LS with no modification? Do the axles bolt up to it?

I'm guessing that the MarkVIII housing is an 8.8"? I'm not worried about a driveshaft as I may go with a one-piece or, as you are, have the stock unit modified to fit whatever goes in the back.

Great information!

Forgive my ignorance as I'm very new to my LS research.

When you say you're going to use a MarkVIII housing, does this bolt to the LS with no modification? Do the axles bolt up to it?

I'm guessing that the MarkVIII housing is an 8.8"? I'm not worried about a driveshaft as I may go with a one-piece or, as you are, have the stock unit modified to fit whatever goes in the back.

Great information!

The MarkVIII(yes a 8.8") housing will take some modification to fit. The LS diff cover does bolt right up to the MarkVIII housing, this has been varified and is the rear mount of the center section. Axles fit. The total width of the unit is within a 1/8", so the whole axle to unit relationship we think is good. The front mounting will be a custom pinion brace that I designed. It will attach to the mounting spot of the stock LS unit and span accross the IRS frame also. It will hold the front of the MarkVIII diff securely and much stronger than the stock is held.

You will have problems with the custom driveshaft approach. I started that way and not that it can't be done, it won't be as straight forward as you might think. The LS driveshaft is unique and doesn't seem like driveshaft shops have done much with this style. Mainly the attaching points. They have a 3 bolt design with a pilot bushing in the middle. The driveshaft itself does not connect to the trans or diff directly, there are rubber grommets that connect there. Hard to explain, I can get a pic. Also a straight driveshaft probably won't clean the exhaust shield under the car. This LS has a 2 piece driveshaft with a center bearing in the middle, its not the connect the dots kinda design.

Check it out. The power of the car actually transfers though the rubber. Driveshaft bolts to 3 holes, diff/ trans bolts to other 3. Pilot bearing keeps it balanced. Notice the ends are not a pivital u-joint, the attachment at the diff and trans are straight with some flex in the rubber. The angle and bend takes place in the middle of the shaft near the center link. Since the rear is not a moving solid axle there really is no major slip joint in the system, just some rubber flex to take up any body flex. Kinda crazy hey. Also diameters are rather small. Being steel and shafts so short its plenty strong. But if a Lighter weight material was desired likely would need a larger diameter. Can't say for sure for the whole length yet but space is kinda limited by the trans end with the shifter lickage coming through the floor. A custom shaft would perhaps be pretty pricey. I stop persuing that early.

Wow that's pretty weird.

Well, I suppose getting the stock shaft modified is just as easy, just need someone competent that can put it together. As for the rubber, if it's not necessary, I'd rather replace it with billet components. It sounds, though, like the rubber actually allows the driveshaft to move.

Here's the thing, though -- My car will probably end up with a Non-Lincoln engine (likely Ford 4.6 3V, 4.6 DOHC, or 4.6 2V, haven't decided). This means a T5 transmission. Is that going to affect whether or not it's easy/hard to get a new driveshaft made?

I'm not worried about clearance to the exhaust. My exhaust will likely be custom.

I'm essentially building a full race car.

i want the grill. DO u have pics?

Wow that's pretty weird.

Well, I suppose getting the stock shaft modified is just as easy, just need someone competent that can put it together. As for the rubber, if it's not necessary, I'd rather replace it with billet components. It sounds, though, like the rubber actually allows the driveshaft to move.

Here's the thing, though -- My car will probably end up with a Non-Lincoln engine (likely Ford 4.6 3V, 4.6 DOHC, or 4.6 2V, haven't decided). This means a T5 transmission. Is that going to affect whether or not it's easy/hard to get a new driveshaft made?

I'm not worried about clearance to the exhaust. My exhaust will likely be custom.

I'm essentially building a full race car.
In the case of a trans and rear swap I would go with a new shaft then. To alter both ends of the stocker wouldn't to me be the best way to go. What you will than have is a very common trans and rear set-up with just a unique length so getting one made would be easy.

What you will need to know is how much room is there in the tunnel. For possibly just a one piece and of coase diameter possiblities. I can't answer that as I haven't pulled the heat shield out to see what other obstacles are hiding (E-brake stuff likely). My decision to just modify the end of the stock set-up really eliminates any fitment problems in the tunnel. If you haven't seen it there is a heat sheild that nearly completely covers the driveshft from end to end making it hard to see what room there is to work with. I don't think exhaust itself would come into play for a 1 piece shaft, likely the sheild.
Even then you would have a very buildable 2 piece unit. Actually with a T5 and 8.8" diff you would just have a modified Mustang situation...if the 1 piece would clear.

I will be pulling the sheild to swap in the new/modified shaft during the swap, then I will have a better insight for what exactly is in the tunnel area under that sheild.

It's a Torsen T-2 ('99 Cobra, 28 spline fitment) from Reider Racing. They also offered a T-2R, which is a more aggressive "racing" version.

http://www.reiderracing.com/zexeltorsen.htm

I have not yet set the pre-load or back lash yet - so there is still a fair amount of fiddling with shims...




Did you test fit that 8.8" pinion gear in the 8.0" housing yet??? ;)

Thoraxe, when building a full on "race car" there are quite a few things that would usually get in the way of a normal build, that are standard for this type of build. Sometimes doing a very custom build becomes easier in some ways though the workload will increase.

Custom fabrication is a typical thing when building a racing vehicle so any concern about the trans tunnel fitment would turn out to be a minor issue to deal with at worst. Worst case scenario you are looking at eliminating the heat/sound shield relocating any items that may be (though not likely) located under it and then have your custom one piece driveshaft built to spec go fit between whatever trans you go with. I would recommend against the T5 as it doesn't hold crap for real power. For real power go with a T-56 or TKO unit. Then after you have all that figured out you will just fabricate your new exhaust around that and be good to go. Things become much easier when you can design them yourself; because it allows you more ability to make things to your needs instead of dealing with what a manufacturer already made.

Since you plan to drop a built 4.6 in there I just suggest to get rid of all the LS electronics, including gauges, and run that engine standalone with a FAST, Megasquirt, BS3 or so on. Allot of those electronic systems not only add weight, but electronically speaking, get in the way also.

If you are serious about doing this then do not bother with the 3v 4.6. It is a good engine but the 4v 4.6 has a higher power potential. The 2v can be modified to very big power numbers but will still top out lower than the 4v. Where I plan to shoot for close to 850-900rwhp in my 4.6 2v vehicle with twin turbos the same vehicle with a 4v engine would be looking at easily over 1,000+rwhp with comparable mods. I have built some pretty crazy vehicles in my time and I will be the first to say that it will not be anywhere close to cheap. Even if approached from a budget build standpoint you are still looking at roughly $10k to do it properly without a power adder. If you add a turbo or supercharger then add another$5-10k. If you do your own work, especially metal fabwork then you will save allot. I can personally vouch that projects like this can easily surpass the $20k+ mark (not counting labor) and that is not even counting the vehicle cost itself.

I wish you luck with your goals, but I do see allot of people having much bigger eyes early on, then realize they are in over their head and end up not finishing the project.

Dude I totally feel where you are coming from. I'm not looking for huge power, actually. I realistically only want 400-500 wheel.

One of my friends runs a 1998 GT with the 2V and a rear-mount turbo, he's very knowledgable about Mustang things. He confirmed my suspicion that for moderate power the 3V is actually the way to go, and is where I'm headed.

I will need the E-brake but I can convert in the long or short run to hydraulic. Worst-case scenario I can relocate the E-brake gizzards inside the cabin to gain clearance.

$10k worth of stuff (not including chassis) is about what I am thinking, but it will realistically end up being, as you say, between $15-20. This project will probably evolve over the course of the year in many different steps. I have some capability myself and with friends and associates to fabricate and wire, but I'm trying to keep that to a relative minimum.

That's why I am trying to stick with the Ford ECM and management for the 3V, if possible. LS1 ECM and management is already basically standalone and you can purchase harnesses that essentially make it so. I am hoping that there is good programmable support for the Ford ECM so that I can go that route, otherwise I will probably go MegaSquirt. FI is not in the plans for the first go-around. Factory gauges and electronic diddles were planned to be nixed before the project started -- no need for ABS, TC, AC, etc. All I will keep inside the dash is the HVAC blower which will be plumbed fixed up to windshield (defrost) and through my helmet (ghetto-rigged cold air).

I don't plan on this getting done soon as it is not looking like I will have a title sponsor for 2008. If I have the chassis, motor, suspension, and diff by the spring, I will be delighted.

Please keep us all posted on the progress of your differential build -- I might want to get one of those front x-members for the diff from you.

Dude I totally feel where you are coming from. I'm not looking for huge power, actually. I realistically only want 400-500 wheel.

One of my friends runs a 1998 GT with the 2V and a rear-mount turbo, he's very knowledgable about Mustang things. He confirmed my suspicion that for moderate power the 3V is actually the way to go, and is where I'm headed.

I will need the E-brake but I can convert in the long or short run to hydraulic. Worst-case scenario I can relocate the E-brake gizzards inside the cabin to gain clearance.

$10k worth of stuff (not including chassis) is about what I am thinking, but it will realistically end up being, as you say, between $15-20. This project will probably evolve over the course of the year in many different steps. I have some capability myself and with friends and associates to fabricate and wire, but I'm trying to keep that to a relative minimum.

That's why I am trying to stick with the Ford ECM and management for the 3V, if possible. LS1 ECM and management is already basically standalone and you can purchase harnesses that essentially make it so. I am hoping that there is good programmable support for the Ford ECM so that I can go that route, otherwise I will probably go MegaSquirt. FI is not in the plans for the first go-around. Factory gauges and electronic diddles were planned to be nixed before the project started -- no need for ABS, TC, AC, etc. All I will keep inside the dash is the HVAC blower which will be plumbed fixed up to windshield (defrost) and through my helmet (ghetto-rigged cold air).

I don't plan on this getting done soon as it is not looking like I will have a title sponsor for 2008. If I have the chassis, motor, suspension, and diff by the spring, I will be delighted.

Please keep us all posted on the progress of your differential build -- I might want to get one of those front x-members for the diff from you.



I am telling you now, do not bother with that 3V 4.6. Your Mustang buddy may know a little bit about this stuff and even once did a turbo on his 98 GT, but I would bet the farm that I know much more when it comes to this stuff. That 3V engine is a much more complex design, and also has a much more complex PCM controlling it. If you go the 4v way it will most likely cost less, be simpler, and net you more power more easily. This is coming from a performance shop owner that specializes in forced induction and crazy builds, usually for Ford vehicles as well as being a Ford custom tuner also. For what you say you plan to do I would not go with the 3V 4.6 at all.

Also if 400-500rwhp is your goal then you will not even come close with that 3V and all the goodies while still N/A. You will top out in the mid 300's with the 3V. However, you will come close with that 4V even in N/A form since you say you do not want to do the power adder for a while. Hitting 500rwhp is not easy to do. You have to address allot of things that get expensive. since you said 500rwhp I would say your overall project cost (not counting car) just went up to at least $20k (not counting labor), especially if you want to get somewhere near that while still N/A.

It sounds like you are kind of new to this stuff based upon your statement of "have some capability". With a build like this the only way it will get done properly is if you either know your stuff, and I mean KNOW YOUR STUFF, or have enough money to pay someone else who does. I would say that half of my customers started out as doing a project themselves with allot of friends promising to help but never fully delivering. In the end after the friends have lost interest in the project the person gives up and takes it to me to finish it.

I am not trying to get you down or be a naysayer but I firmly believe that you need a reality check with a few things here. This is coming from a person who has walked the footsteps that you are about to take. My suggestion to make a project this large go smoothly is to wait one full year before doing anything. In that year you will need to make a very in-depth plan. Also you will need to make all your contact for any special services you will need. Another good thing is to make sure that you are able to do most of the work yourself. If you are not a good welder then learn, same with wiring, vehicular engine work, custom fuel systems, tuning and so on. One year may seem like a long time but I have seen people rush things or just not come in fully prepared and run out of money or patience less than 1/2 way through. For example one of my new customers with a Built, cammed and blown 01 Cobra that has been down for more than a year now due to poor planning on his part; and he is a certified Master Mechanic.

One last key phrase is Self Sustainment... Do not rely upon the assumption that friends or coworkers will help you with this project as most will help at first and then find other things to do. Likely more than 80% of this project you will end up doing yourself. Good luck, it looks like it could be a pretty fun build if approached right.

I plan on having this thing in my garage on jackstands for a long long time :)

Thanks for the advice! The 4V Cobra motors are much cheaper, you're right. This thread is way off topic from diffs, so I will PM you or see you over on modularfords.com ;)

What you will need to know is how much room is there in the tunnel. For possibly just a one piece and of coase diameter possiblities.
If it'll fit in an '05+ Mustang, it should, theoretically, fit in the LS's tunnel. The floorpan of DEW98 is one of the few things that made it into the new Mustang.

It's a Torsen T-2 ('99 Cobra, 28 spline fitment) from Reider Racing. They also offered a T-2R, which is a more aggressive "racing" version.

http://www.reiderracing.com/zexeltorsen.htm

I have not yet set the pre-load or back lash yet - so there is still a fair amount of fiddling with shims...

So could I get one of those and just have a shop install it for me?
How hard would it be?
WHat I am worried about is labor cost and shops ability to tweak it to make it work.