Dont know if the PCM will put its foot down on this mod too but... Just wanted get an idea if there would be an interest among LS owners for an Underdrive Crank Pulley. Should free up some HP id assume?!?!?!? Assemble a buy in or something. Relatively easy design to replicate into an underdrive of about 18-20%. Email if interested
Anyone found a cheaper intake than LLSOC 400+ rip off?? Maybe ill have to fabricate one of those too. like my catback exhaust
Justin
Venture Motorsports
Exclusive LS Performance

Why do you believe this would add HP?


BTW - the LLSOC is only a ripoff if you can do better for less... otherwise it's just wasted internet space.


Dont know if the PCM will put its foot down on this mod too but... Just wanted get an idea if there would be an interest among LS owners for an Underdrive Crank Pulley. Should free up some HP id assume?!?!?!? Assemble a buy in or something. Relatively easy design to replicate into an underdrive of about 18-20%. Email if interested
Anyone found a cheaper intake than LLSOC 400+ rip off?? Maybe ill have to fabricate one of those too. like my catback exhaust
Justin
Venture Motorsports
Exclusive LS Performance

Why do you believe this would add HP?


BTW - the LLSOC is only a ripoff if you can do better for less... otherwise it's just wasted internet space.

I'd imagine it's like every other engine...if you reduce the drag on the front of the engine...you increase the efficiency...thereby increasing the output. I don't see how an underdrive pulley WOULDN'T increase output. LS1s traditionally see gains from 10-12 horsepower by adding an underdrive pulley. The only thing to remember...because all of the V8s are autos...charging could be an issue for anyone that has any additional electronics.

As for the intake...I'm STILL trying to find someone to make me one but...I haven't given up. In the meantime, I'm going to get a MAF adapter and put a K&N on the end of the factory setup. I don't know how much of a difference the LLSOC intake would make over the factory piece with a K&N cone on it. The only thing I'll need to fab up will be some sort of a heat shield to install before the K&N. Should be easy enough to do with a small SS sheet.

-Pete
02LSE

Anyone found a cheaper intake than LLSOC 400+ rip off?? Maybe ill have to fabricate one of those too. like my catback exhaust
Justin
Venture Motorsports
Exclusive LS Performance

If you can make one cheaper then have at it. Most folks don't want to mess with making one. I'm the one that is part of making that "$400+ rip off" you mention and it's far from a rip off.

I wouldn't pay $400+ for the minimal hp gained by adding a cai...but I come from the world of mustangs where parts are cheap lol

An underdrive pulley would be a nice, easy addon and good bang for the buck if its $50 or less

The 3.9 doesn't have the pulley built into the balancer? Most newer fords (mod motors for example) are like this

If you can make one cheaper then have at it. Most folks don't want to mess with making one. I'm the one that is part of making that "$400+ rip off" you mention and it's far from a rip off.
LLSOC- Ill be more selective on my words from now on.....Id just like to know how much it REALLY costs them to make. Im all about hooking up my fellow LS owners. Thats why i created Venture Motorsports. Cuz too few products are available, or they cost 400 dollars ! ! I have my owndesign being fabricated as we speak. i just want our LS's to get more respect on the street, without working 2 jobs to gain it.

Why do you believe this would add HP?


BTW - the LLSOC is only a ripoff if you can do better for less... otherwise it's just wasted internet space.

less rotating mass = less strain on the motor.
Underdrive pulleys reduce the speed of accessories relative to the crankshaft speed. The claim is that this can significantly reduce parasitic drag on the engine, increase horsepower, torque and gas mileage, and by turning the accessories slower, extend their life.

It does add hp...I use an underdrive pulley on my Mustang and wouldn't hesitate to buy one for another application

checkout www.marchperf.com or www.aspracing.com

I wouldn't buy a $400 CAI.

$400
10hp
= 40 $$ per HP. If it makes that. . .

I wouldn't buy a $400 CAI.

$400
10hp
= 40 $$ per HP. If it makes that. . .

It's actually 15 hp for the CAI. And again, I'll say this once more. If you can make the thing cheaper or find it cheaper then do it.

less rotating mass = less strain on the motor.
Underdrive pulleys reduce the speed of accessories relative to the crankshaft speed. The claim is that this can significantly reduce parasitic drag on the engine, increase horsepower, torque and gas mileage, and by turning the accessories slower, extend their life.


Less totating mass? The point of an under-drive pulley, is to increase mechanical advantage for the engine over the accesories. This is done via a smaller diameter crank pulley, and/or larger pulleys on the accesories. The difference in mass of the pulley would be so small, it would make no decernable difference in power, I'm sure.
And as far as the accesories' slower rotational speed adding service life, I would think that that would be much LESS of a concern than the proportional reduction in output from them. THAT should be a great concern considering that Lincolns tend to be heavily fortified with electronic goodies, and they will now be starved for power.

starved for power off idle only...an underdrive crank pulley wont affect the alternators output over say 1500rpm since its regulated over that given point anyway

LLSOC- Ill be more selective on my words from now on.....Id just like to know how much it REALLY costs them to make. Im all about hooking up my fellow LS owners. Thats why i created Venture Motorsports. Cuz too few products are available, or they cost 400 dollars ! ! I have my owndesign being fabricated as we speak. i just want our LS's to get more respect on the street, without working 2 jobs to gain it.


I've been to the Magnaflow "factory". Trust me, it doesn't cost them anywhere near the $600+ they charge for their LS system. Something costs whatever a purchaser will pay. My house isn't anywhere near "worth" the ~$625K I could sell it for. It's called supply and demand. As in anything, if you can find the same quality product for less, just do it.

It's actually 15 hp for the CAI. And again, I'll say this once more. If you can make the thing cheaper or find it cheaper then do it.

Wheres the dyno sheet. . .

Wheres the dyno sheet. . .

Attached are two dynos performed on the same day. We dyno'd a stock 2003 Lincoln LS that had no cat-back exhaust or CAI. The stock numbers from Lincoln for the 2003 LS is 280 HP with 286 ft-lbs of torque at the flywheel. With that being said the 2003 LS pulled at the wheels 217 HP and my modified 2001 LS pulled 218 HP. According to the 2000-2002 Lincoln LS specs the stock HP is 252 and the torque is 261. So, while you're looking at the charts my LS outperformed the 2003 stock LS. Calculating back the HP gain my LS gained roughly 30+HP. Now Magnaflow boasts that their exhaust systems gain roughly 12-14 HP (you can verify that on Magnaflows website at www.magnaflow.com). So, the CAI will yield at least a 15HP increase. Any other questions?

http://home.comcast.net/~christy817/Dyno_-_Amy_Adams.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~christy817/Dyno_-_Ken_Garrison_Part_2.jpg

That don't tell me shizzy! I want stock LS performing with just a CAI. . .

That don't tell me shizzy! I want stock LS performing with just a CAI. . .

Dude, that actually tells you more than you need to know but any case here's the a dyno of a stock LS with only the CAI.

http://home.comcast.net/~christy817/Dyno_-_Wayne_Fox.jpg

Thats with CAI and xhaust. How much does each pull? You can't tell me because it can not go/cut it down the middle. 15 for each, when maybe the xhaust pulled 20 hps and the intake pulled 10. . . You don't know, thank though. . .

Thats with CAI and xhaust. How much does each pull? You can't tell me because it can not go/cut it down the middle. 15 for each, when maybe the xhaust pulled 20 hps and the intake pulled 10. . . You don't know, thank though. . .

He's absolutely correct. AND there's another wrinkle in your dyno theory. You're using two different cars for you comparison! If you think that's ok, you know little about collecting data of this kind.

He's absolutely correct. AND there's another wrinkle in your dyno theory. You're using two different cars for you comparison! If you think that's ok, you know little about collecting data of this kind.

I disagree with your last statement. The numbers don't lie. It is what it is. Of course if you want to send me $70 for another dyno pull with my car with the stock intake on I will be more than happy to go back and dyno my car again.

Thats with CAI and xhaust. How much does each pull? You can't tell me because it can not go/cut it down the middle. 15 for each, when maybe the xhaust pulled 20 hps and the intake pulled 10. . . You don't know, thank though. . .

Sif,

Read the bold print that is printed smack dab in the middle of the last dyno sheet. It says stock exhaust. I guess I don't understand your thought proocess here. :Bang

I disagree with your last statement. The numbers don't lie. It is what it is. Of course if you want to send me $70 for another dyno pull with my car with the stock intake on I will be more than happy to go back and dyno my car again.

Do you have any concept of "comparitive data"? You could take two virtually identical cars and get widely varying dyno data. The very idea of using data from two totally different cars for the purpose of comparing net gains/losses from modifications done is ridiculous. And as was pointed out, doing a pull after more than one mod was done and thinking you can determine in any way what the gain/loss was from either mod is also ridiculous. All you did was waste your time and money on the dyno if you were intent on getting data from each mod. You got a "net" result which means very little with respect to the individual mod.

Do you have any concept of "comparitive data"? You could take two virtually identical cars and get widely varying dyno data. The very idea of using data from two totally different cars for the purpose of comparing net gains/losses from modifications done is ridiculous. And as was pointed out, doing a pull after more than one mod was done and thinking you can determine in any way what the gain/loss was from either mod is also ridiculous. All you did was waste your time and money on the dyno if you were intent on getting data from each mod. You got a "net" result which means very little with respect to the individual mod.

In any case the net increase with a CAI and Cat-Back exhaust is 30+ HP. Any other comments based on that are as you say....'ridiculous'.

In any case the net increase with a CAI and Cat-Back exhaust is 30+ HP. Any other comments based on that are as you say....'ridiculous'.

And just HOW do you come to that conclusion? Without knowing what your specific car's output was PRIOR to doing the mods, your dyno data means nothing beyond it showing what the car's output was on that particular day with the stated mods. There are FAR too many variables that your "experiment" does not take into consideration, to be able to draw any other conclusions.

Understand where you're coming from. However, are you a dyno specialist? Just wondering because it seems you have ALL the answers.

Understand where you're coming from. However, are you a dyno specialist? Just wondering because it seems you have ALL the answers.

Not an automotive dyno specialist. I've been in on a few pulls over the years (both engine and chassis) but I DID run a jet engine test facility in the Navy for a while and that gave me a good understanding of the proper criteria for doing comparitive testing. It's really just common sense to a great degree. the only dependable method for determining net power gains from modifications is make sure the rest is constant. The same car, same dyno, same ambient conditions, etc, etc. As soon as you lose those constant factors, you introduce unknown variables into the mix and at that point, your conclusions will be skewed.

Do you have any concept of "comparitive data"? You could take two virtually identical cars and get widely varying dyno data. The very idea of using data from two totally different cars for the purpose of comparing net gains/losses from modifications done is ridiculous. And as was pointed out, doing a pull after more than one mod was done and thinking you can determine in any way what the gain/loss was from either mod is also ridiculous. All you did was waste your time and money on the dyno if you were intent on getting data from each mod. You got a "net" result which means very little with respect to the individual mod.

Katshot is 100% right, i think you are just taking him wrong. Your specific vehicle could very well have gained 30 HP. However, the exact same model car, that came out of assembly next in line could gain 20 HP. Every engine is different. You need to do a battery of testing on multiple vehicles and come up with an average gain. In addition to this, ambient temperature and humidity make a great deal of difference. In other words, it's just not right to market a product with results based on one vehicle. And if anyone needs any dyno 101, My father was head dyno engineer for Champion Spark Plug/Dana Corp. for about 10 years here in Toledo before he resigned in 96. I'm sure he can dispell any dyno myths or questions. The above statements however, are pure common sense. Not arguable.

BTW, if you guys are going to sell this kit for $400+ you should at least include a heat shield of some sort. There is a large hole below the stock air box that is plenty big enough to draw cool air from, as well as the hole that is in the drivers fender for the stock inlet. A heat shield from the strut tower to the head light with a tight seal up top on the hood would be perfect. I can't see how you charge $400 for something that would take me 30 minutes to bend up in my Dads shop. And if you other LS owner really want this intake, just go to any local shop that has a rotary draw mandrel bender and have one made, you'll have MAYBE $150 in materials/labor (and thats including the air filter). And for another $50, im use you can talk one of the guys into welding on the Idle Air and PCV port nipples.

Katshot is 100% right, i think you are just taking him wrong. Your specific vehicle could very well have gained 30 HP. However, the exact same model car, that came out of assembly next in line could gain 20 HP. Every engine is different. You need to do a battery of testing on multiple vehicles and come up with an average gain. In addition to this, ambient temperature and humidity make a great deal of difference. In other words, it's just not right to market a product with results based on one vehicle. And if anyone needs any dyno 101, My father was head dyno engineer for Champion Spark Plug/Dana Corp. for about 10 years here in Toledo before he resigned in 96. I'm sure he can dispell any dyno myths or questions. The above statements however, are pure common sense. Not arguable.

BTW, if you guys are going to sell this kit for $400+ you should at least include a heat shield of some sort. There is a large hole below the stock air box that is plenty big enough to draw cool air from, as well as the hole that is in the drivers fender for the stock inlet. A heat shield from the strut tower to the head light with a tight seal up top on the hood would be perfect. I can't see how you charge $400 for something that would take me 30 minutes to bend up in my Dads shop. And if you other LS owner really want this intake, just go to any local shop that has a rotary draw mandrel bender and have one made, you'll have MAYBE $150 in materials/labor (and thats including the air filter). And for another $50, im use you can talk one of the guys into welding on the Idle Air and PCV port nipples.


Yep, he gets it! Establishing trends IS a viable alternative but not as easy to do. Takes a lot of vehicles and someone that truely understands how to corellate the data to come up with a realistic conclusion.

I can't see how you charge $400 for something that would take me 30 minutes to bend up in my Dads shop. And if you other LS owner really want this intake, just go to any local shop that has a rotary draw mandrel bender and have one made, you'll have MAYBE $150 in materials/labor (and thats including the air filter). And for another $50, im use you can talk one of the guys into welding on the Idle Air and PCV port nipples.

Ok, I'll say it again for you too. If you can make it cheaper then do it. What part of that don't you understand?

I've seen this on some threads here. What does it mean when somebody posts but there is no text?

I talked with ASP racing. They said it would take ALOT of interest for them to tool the part up. SO....anyone interested let me know or Email ASP racing.

If this truly will do something for the LS, I would be interested. I would like to know the actual estimated gains for doing this and at least an estimate in price. I mean if we are talking $800, I might tend to think no use.

interested

If this truly will do something for the LS, I would be interested. I would like to know the actual estimated gains for doing this and at least an estimate in price. I mean if we are talking $800, I might tend to think no use.
ASP said to send in a used pulley and thed take a look. Ill probably drop the cash to get it tooled up and see how it goes. Im looking at a 19-23% underdrive and new serpentine belt. More thank likely ill offer it on ebay
Justin
Venture Motorsports

That don't tell me shizzy! I want stock LS performing with just a CAI. . .

My stock LS: 15.506 @ 91.01 in the 1/4.

My stock LS w/ LLSOC/DPG CAI only: 15.115 @ 93.39 in the 1/4 (link to this slip in the timeslip section).

Any other questions?

On the underdrive pulley, don't expect more than ~ 5HP. Yeah, it may be cheaper to manufacture or buy, but I can guarantee you that it will be ALOT more difficult / expensive to install than any CAI. Also, all LSs are borderline on electrical capacity, you better shrink the alternater pulley while you are at it or you can be counting on a few dead batteries, especially in the winter weather while you are sitting in traffic w/ all the heaters running, wipers going, headlights on, stereo thumping, while you wait for some bozo in an SUV to pull themselves out of the ditch they landed in because they don't know how to handle AWD on ice. 2 pullies = double the cost, twice the difficulty / cost to install. 5 iffy hp just isn't worth it IMO.

BTW, I only paid $330 for my DPG CAI, however the newer KKM CAI is improved slightly (fewer bends / curves in the airpath). Those pulleys + install better be less than $110 to beat my CAI from a HP/$ POV.

Also, I did fab a heat shield for my CAI just like someone suggested, from the shock tower / wheel well to the radiator support, between the back of the cone filter and the engine compartment, relied on the hood to close the "box" on top. My proto-shield was made from cardboard, planning on replacing it w/ sheet aluminum soon.

there is absolutely NO reason why anyone on this board can't install their own underdrive pulley

LLSOC- Ill be more selective on my words from now on.....Id just like to know how much it REALLY costs them to make. Im all about hooking up my fellow LS owners. Thats why i created Venture Motorsports. Cuz too few products are available, or they cost 400 dollars ! ! I have my owndesign being fabricated as we speak. i just want our LS's to get more respect on the street, without working 2 jobs to gain it.
I know exactly how much they originally cost. I was part of the design and testing of the original one that was done through Phil at DPG Performance and it is a ripoff for $400.00!

I'm interested in seeing what the pulley can bring to the table. LLSOC has been working with a company that will introduce a supercharger in February. They specifically made it for a prototype 2002 T-bird and they've had good results. I guess what I'm saying is what kind of performance numbers are we talking about. JohnnyBZ has a point that adding bolt on like a cat-back and CAI adds HP at a minimal cost. Will your butt be able to feel an increase too with the pulley or would it be a combination of all three for maximum performance?

Very interested though!

I know exactly how much they originally cost. I was part of the design and testing of the original one that was done through Phil at DPG Performance and it is a ripoff for $400.00!

Geno, that is a crap statement man. Reason is Phil could mass produce them. Our shop isn't capable of that. It's just a small shop and of course LLSOC has a certain mark up for the club as well.

I know we've discussed this before and Joey will attest. Let's not get into a slapping contest between forums here.

I'm interested in seeing what the pulley can bring to the table. LLSOC has been working with a company that will introduce a supercharger in February. They specifically made it for a prototype 2002 T-bird and they've had good results. I guess what I'm saying is what kind of performance numbers are we talking about. JohnnyBZ has a point that adding bolt on like a cat-back and CAI adds HP at a minimal cost. Will your butt be able to feel an increase too with the pulley or would it be a combination of all three for maximum performance?

Very interested though!
We picked up some good numbers with the pulley on the Marks, CRANK only I would never dare do a 3 piece setup on these cars. There so electrical dependant its unreal! We have done the 3 piece on the Marks with sad alternator woes as the result.

the 3g alt used on the mark has a factory underdrive pulley that turns the alt slower than any previous ford alt

you can put a 2g pulley (from any 87-93 ford 302, 3.8, and 351w) on a 3g alt (serp that is) and regain any loss after swapping to an underdrive crank pulley

We picked up some good numbers with the pulley on the Marks, CRANK only I would never dare do a 3 piece setup on these cars. There so electrical dependant its unreal! We have done the 3 piece on the Marks with sad alternator woes as the result.

That's interesting. I agree that they are WAY electrically dependent. Were you replacing altenators quite a bit on the Marks using those 3 piece setups?

I'm interested in seeing what the pulley can bring to the table. LLSOC has been working with a company that will introduce a supercharger in February. They specifically made it for a prototype 2002 T-bird and they've had good results.

manacharger or kenne bell?

That's interesting. I agree that they are WAY electrically dependent. Were you replacing altenators quite a bit on the Marks using those 3 piece setups?
I did on the TerminVIIIor about a week after a 3 piece install with 36k. I also have seen this with a buch more too, right after install.

manacharger or kenne bell?

IIRC, it's Thomas Knight.