Found a water pump listing for the 3.9L LS engine. It also included a 2005 LR3 Land Rover 4.4L V-8. This is also built on the AJ Engine platform?
Anybody have more information? It would be great to slip in another .5 L if the engine needs to be replaced?

when you read the many threads on engine swaps you will see that this is a non-starter.

I guess I'm having a 'dain bramage' morning since I can't seem to find any of the threads on the 4.4 range rover/3.9 lincoln swap issues.

Lou, could you give me an example of a good one.

also why is it that the new s type jag's V8 is not an option?

It's all in the PCM.

The current s-type only sares the block with the LS and none of the electronics - so a swap would be extremely difficult.

We can't even swap an 03+ engine into a pre-03 LS.

An electric water pump would be cool.

Found a water pump listing for the 3.9L LS engine. It also included a 2005 LR3 Land Rover 4.4L V-8. This is also built on the AJ Engine platform?
Anybody have more information? It would be great to slip in another .5 L if the engine needs to be replaced?
Wow... Liter envy. Thats a new one.

okay so the PCM is totally different,
That is a major hiccup in a swap of that magnatude,

but that leads me to two questions,

1. is the 4.4l long block the same as the LS's, so I could maybe do a sleeper stroker swap. (like the old 351 block in place of a 302).
2. Is the PCM of the 4.4l from the same family of controls as the LS or the Jag. I ask this because I was repeatedly told that there was no way to make my 88 mustang compatable with a 90 tbird sc motor, but all it really took was a LOT of patients. And I can be a very patient individual.

1. is the 4.4l long block the same as the LS's, so I could maybe do a sleeper stroker swap. (like the old 351 block in place of a 302).

it is not. however - the 4.0L Jag block is a 'stroker' version of our 3.9L - but a lot of work to et it into an LS.


2. Is the PCM of the 4.4l from the same family of controls as the LS or the Jag. I ask this because I was repeatedly told that there was no way to make my 88 mustang compatable with a 90 tbird sc motor, but all it really took was a LOT of patients. And I can be a very patient individual.

the PCM is one of seven control modules that work as a unit in the LS - and none are the same as the Jag. I do not know what the LR uses for their controls - but unlikely it is as expensivee/complicated as the Jag or LS.......

I am still of the belief that the swap of a short block is entirely possible. This assumes that the new short block is of the same architecture as the 3.9. The use of your current heads, intake, accessories, etc should allow the use of the stock electronics...albiet with some tuning. You would need to get with Torrie and play with the tune. But you are playing in unknown territory when it comes to the tune, so it could get expensive. You would also need to recalibrate the transmission. That's a whole other novel....

Don't believe every thing you read! I come from the SHO world. For YEARS we were told the bigger 3.2 L would NOT bolt into the smaller 3.0 L manual transmission cars. But it does and it works GREAT!! What it took was somebody with guts to try it out!

The 4.4 L Land Rover long block can not be very different if the water pump is the same? I can not find out if the Land Rover uses the VVT but it probably does. So the question might be to use the bigger short block with the current LS heads and other accessories. With the XCAL now available the programming should be possible to handle the increased air flow from the increases engine volume.
But I also read that the Land Rover 4.4L is a BMW engine?
.
.

Don't believe every thing you read! I come from the SHO world. For YEARS we were told the bigger 3.2 L would NOT bolt into the smaller 3.0 L manual transmission cars. But it does and it works GREAT!! What it took was somebody with guts to try it out!.
I hope you mean the 3.4L V8, not the 3.2L SHO V6; surely, nobody would be foolish enough to say that the 3.2L SHO and 3.0L SHO were each built on a different chassis...

The 4.4 L Land Rover long block can not be very different if the water pump is the same? I can not find out if the Land Rover uses the VVT but it probably does. So the question might be to use the bigger short block with the current LS heads and other accessories. With the XCAL now available the programming should be possible to handle the increased air flow from the increases engine volume.
If the relationship between the 4.4L and 4.0L AJ-V8s is like that of the 302 and 351W (or 5.0 and 5.8 for those of you who think a carb is something you avoid on the Atkins diet ;) ), even though they have the same bore, they won't be interchangeable--they'll have different deck heights, which means a different intake manifold. If that's true, the Lincoln heads not only have to mate up to the Jag block, but also to the Land Rover intake (which is not a given).
But I also read that the Land Rover 4.4L is a BMW engine?
The 4.4L is Jaguar AJ-V8. It replaced the BMW mill that powered the Landy when Ford acquired Land Rover from BMW.

okay, I understand the 5.0 to 5.8 issues as well as a 4.6 dohc to 5.4 dohc swap in a mustang.

so if the 4.4l is the tall block version of the 3.9-4.0 block then a pair of ls lower intake manifolds and a welder will be needed among other frabrications.

Hey Quik, how much clearance does the bare (no plastic shrouds) v8 ls motor have to the hood.
I'm getting that itch again (don't tell my wife).

I hope you mean the 3.4L V8, not the 3.2L SHO V6; surely, nobody would be foolish enough to say that the 3.2L SHO and 3.0L SHO were each built on a different chassis...

The 3.0 V6 to the 3.2 V6.. I believe is what he's talking about. If I remember that is common engine swap for SHO.

You can make the 3.4 a manual.. but it would take a lot of money I am not willing to spend.

To JES LS...Where are you getting this 5.8 stuff? Have you ever owned a GM? Its a 5.7L. I am assuming your talking about the 305 and 350. And also, you started this whole Land Rover thing just in case you ever had to put a new engine in, now your all about making a switch. Are you the type of person that is never happy or satisfied with anything? Or are you just the type that desire's attention and trying to make something out of nothing...ie coil poll. Maybe some redneck may want to take all these different types of motors to swap in a camaro or mustang but your talking about a luxury vehicle. A Lincoln. Is it really that important to you to make a "sleeper" out of LS. How many people need to tell you that its the electronics with the LS that isnt going to make it happen. The amount of time and work and money your talking is just stupid. Are cars that big a part of your life? Do you make money racing? Is there a guy down the street you just cant wait to race and beat in your Lincoln? Why do i feel like this isnt the only forum you post on? And at the very end of all this nonsense your talking about a 20 hp difference between the engines. Just be a p*ssy and put some nitrous on it and go racing around. But i am pretty sure you'll come back some post bashing me and then just continue your stupid idea of putting a Land Rover engine in your car.

I'm not having any luck in finding any 4.4L dimensions other than bore X stroke, but baed on that, it looks like the 4.4L is a bored-out 4.2L (which is a stroked 4.0L, and the LS's 3.9 is a de-stroked 4.0L). The one reference I found indicates that the 4.4L has a bore that's 0.1" greater than the 4.2L (and 3.9L), but it doesn't indicate if that has any impact on bore spacing.

I'm used to going .030 over on the bore; I'm not sure about going 0.1" over, and how that would impact the heads (no pun intended).

Where are you getting this 5.8 stuff? Have you ever owned a GM? Its a 5.7L.
Umm, I mentioned the 5.8, which is a 351 Windsor, just like the 5.0 is a 302. Both are Ford Windsor V8s; GM has jack to do with anything in this discussion.

Umm, I mentioned the 5.8, which is a 351 Windsor, just like the 5.0 is a 302. Both are Ford Windsor V8s; GM has jack to do with anything in this discussion.
My bad, i forgot this is a Lincoln/Ford enthusiast site. How dare i.

My bad, i forgot this is a Lincoln/Ford enthusiast site. How dare i.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you'll go to heck for that one. :D

To JES LS...Where are you getting this 5.8 stuff? Have you ever owned a GM? Its a 5.7L. I am assuming your talking about the 305 and 350. And also, you started this whole Land Rover thing just in case you ever had to put a new engine in, now your all about making a switch. Are you the type of person that is never happy or satisfied with anything? Or are you just the type that desire's attention and trying to make something out of nothing...ie coil poll. Maybe some redneck may want to take all these different types of motors to swap in a camaro or mustang but your talking about a luxury vehicle. A Lincoln. Is it really that important to you to make a "sleeper" out of LS. How many people need to tell you that its the electronics with the LS that isnt going to make it happen. The amount of time and work and money your talking is just stupid. Are cars that big a part of your life? Do you make money racing? Is there a guy down the street you just cant wait to race and beat in your Lincoln? Why do i feel like this isnt the only forum you post on? And at the very end of all this nonsense your talking about a 20 hp difference between the engines. Just be a p*ssy and put some nitrous on it and go racing around. But i am pretty sure you'll come back some post bashing me and then just continue your stupid idea of putting a Land Rover engine in your car.

Some of us like doing this stuff just because of posts like this. And it gives us satisfaction.

Go look at the Mark VIII forum. There are some seriously modded cars there. I wonder why Quik is s/c his car?

If someone builds it, someone will race it. I don't care how luxurious it is. For God's sake they race lawn mowers.

If you think the electronics can't be overcome, you're sadly mistaken. It's all a matter of how much time and effort you're willing to spend and how good you are. You sound just like the vast majority of folks who freaked out when cars first went fuel injected and ECM controlled. They thought the world of hot rodding had come to an end. Then when OBD II came out, it was the same thing all over again. Now, with the latest generation of engine controls involving a CAN bus, we have discovered that not only can it be modified, but the new architecture lends to even better changes. It's just a matter of time until innovative folks go to town and figure it all out.

I can flat promise you that I could put a small block chevy in a Lincoln LS and make it run just fine. I guarantee it. The problem I would have is integrating the dash and other networks. That would take someone with a much broader understanding of the engineering involved. It's just a matter of how much time and money you want to spend on a project and whether or not it would be worth it to you.

While ago someone.. put a V6 SHO motor in Festiva.... this looked odd, but I bet it was quick. :D

The 3.0 V6 to the 3.2 V6.. I believe is what he's talking about. If I remember that is common engine swap for SHO.

You can make the 3.4 a manual.. but it would take a lot of money I am not willing to spend.
My point was that in all the time I dealt with the SHO, I never heard anyone say that you couldn't put a 3.2L SHO in the place of a 3.0L SHO--of course, most of the guys I knew who were modding SHOs (and I) thought that it was a lot of expense for not much gain, just a total 5 ft-lbs more torque and better torque lower in the power band.

While ago someone.. put a V6 SHO motor in Festiva.... this looked odd, but I bet it was quick. :D
That was the SHOgun--Jay Leno has one. It's also a rear-driver; they took the entire SHO drivetrain and grafted it into the rear of a Festiva. It was trhe brainchild of a couple of brothers, and they were going to put it into production, but I don't remember what happend to those plans.

I remember as a kid my dad having a rental car that was a Festiva. What a joke. Those things have one purpose and thats being in a circus with clowns piling out of it.

QuickLS is right.
I work at Windsor Aluminum Plant, we make the 3.0 Duratec and the 3.9 Litre engine blocks.

With variable cam timing and other electronic changes, we increased horsepower from 252 to 280.:D
Ahhhh!! Horsepower! It's a good thing.;)

With these changes, I think it would be hard for a swap. Not impossible. It matters how much time and money you want to put into the effort.
Sometimes it's not worth it.

With the money and the amount of time required for a swap, I'd prefer to switch to Diesel, bio-diesel to be exact. A Mercedes or VW diesel enigine, with a module can accept bio-diesel (vegetable oil) from McDonalds or a potato chip factory (very clean oil due to their quality and frequent oil changes). This can mean 25-50 cents per gallon (when you factor in the cost of filtering the oil and the additive used to make the oil not gel-up during cold months), after the intial set-up.

Go to http://www.greasecar.com/ for details. I learned of this site when I watched a CNBC special on alternative fuels.

Trebor.:cool:

well if the blocks are the same then all you know is that the 4.4l is a much larger bored and stroked version of the 3.9l, then it is possible.
as for the motor having that much of an overbore compared to the 4.2/4.0/3.9 bores, there is not much worry.
I'm sure that the 4.4l block is either designed to take a larger cylinder sleeve or it has a different casting core designed to allow for the larger standard bore.

I would not want to try and bore an 3.9/4.0/4.2l block out 0.10" unless I was sure that I had sleeves for it and that the block was designed to accept sleeves from the begining.

anyway, if the 4.4/4.2 share the same block height and are just taller deck versions of 3.9/4.0 block then the LS heads should bolt on to the block and the lower intake could be sectioned and stretched to fit the block. The timing cover might need some massaging to fit, but it would all seem do-able.
then you start looking at can the trans take the power, will the rear hold up, and can I get it all under the hood?

Hmmm.

From what little I've found, the 3.9 is a de-stroked 4.0; the 4.2 is a stroked 4.0; and the 4.4 is a stroked and bored 4.0. I haven't found anything that gives a clue as to the deck height, so it's entirely possible that they all use the same basic block with only a different crank and con rods (and pistons).

If they do all use the same basic block, it should be at least theoretically possible to do a lower-end swap (long block) if you have a good XCal tuner to make any necessary adjustments to the PCM--as long as they didn't do something crazy like change the firing order (again, ala the 5.0 and 5.8, which had different firing orders until the 5.0 HO started snapping crankshafts).

Yeah those were the lines I was thinking about, but even if the 4.4 is taller deck block (ala the 5.8 vs 5.0 blocks) then the intake lower could be sorted out and the firing order would just involve some wiring harness pin swapping (again just like some of us handled 5.8's going to 5.0 chassis).
the 4.4 might be big enough to require a larger fuel pump and larger injectors but they should not be that hard to find (Like probably the injectors from the Range rover in the first place).

I'm really getting interested in this, I just hope that I can not blab it around my wife before I can get all the pieces sorted out.

keep the thoughts and the details comming.
Can anyone find a 4.4 block and get some measurements or more detailed specifications.
I'll look tomorrow myself, when I'm not packing.

I really like the idea you guys have here. I was kind of wondering the same thing, since I have a little knowledge of 302s, 351s, and 289s of the carb era. Its amazing how many parts can be swapped between these engines. I can't hardly think it would have been cost effective for ford to not make the 3.9 comparable to other engines. However, is a 4.4, 4.0, or, 4.2 goinig to be cheap enough to try this? I figured those blocks would be exspensive since they came in Jags and Land Rovers. I'm sure some have the cash to try it and I hope they do. I'd just hate to waste money if it is a no starter

It might be cheaper to buy a complete 4.6L DOHC than a 4.4L long block, but the 4.6 would require completely redesigning the LS's electronics, while the 4.4 would only (theoretically) require an XCal and the services of someone like Torrie to adjust some PCM parameters. This makes it an eminently more feasible project.

Of course, this is entirely theoretical to me, 'case I'm not even contemplating anything like this for the next 6 years or 75,000 miles. ;)

The festiva, with the 24v v-6 sitting inside the rear hatch, was the "ShoGun" I still have the MT or C&D it was in sitting around here, somewhere. Surprised anyone remembers it.

Found a water pump listing for the 3.9L LS engine. It also included a 2005 LR3 Land Rover 4.4L V-8. This is also built on the AJ Engine platform?
Anybody have more information? It would be great to slip in another .5 L if the engine needs to be replaced?
I ran across this thread by accident while 'surfing'. The answer, of course, is that you simply use the LS wiring harness as much as possible and tune with an Xcal. The four litre Jag I'm installing in my '02 LS is almost a drop-in. The oil filter location is different, but I'm going to a dry-sump so it makes no difference. The cam position sensors are in the cam covers on the Jag but the Xcal can change the way the computer reads this input so that's only one more thing to look at when re-flashing. There is some degree of cross-breeding necessary, but all of this is very do-able. For more info see my thread in the HP section---'Land Speed LS'.
KenS from Ben's Place

Hey Trebor, Do the 3.0 and the 3.5 V6 share any of the same componets that you are aware of? I have thinking about a 3.0 to 3.5 swap for the V6 for a while now. It would be nice to pick up some extra horsepower an extra 26 hp. I looked at one in a Ford Edge and it looked very simular to my 3.0. just curious to know?

Hey Trebor, Do the 3.0 and the 3.5 V6 share any of the same componets that you are aware of? I have thinking about a 3.0 to 3.5 swap for the V6 for a while now. It would be nice to pick up some extra horsepower an extra 26 hp. I looked at one in a Ford Edge and it looked very simular to my 3.0. just curious to know?

Read it. Know it. Love it. (http://www.newcougar.org/forums/general-info/99539-duratec-35-cylclone-new-facts.html) And have fun if you ever try to do it. Just get a tune and some bolt-ones, you'll make up the horsepower difference cheaper and easier.

try the swap. everyone thought supercharging and turbocharging was insane due to the high compression ratio. but now all we can do is sit by the curb and hope it comes it kit form while the boosted pioneers are leaving their tire in thin lines down the pavement. its an expensive gamble to be sure, but if you got the brass and the deep pockets why not? the main problem i see is that we're not talking about a chevy 350 swap where you can find the engine lying around whole by the MILLIONS in junk yards... a land rover engine probably carries a bit more of a signifcant price tag. but with enough time and insanity anything is automotively possible.

try the swap. everyone thought supercharging and turbocharging was insane due to the high compression ratio. but now all we can do is sit by the curb and hope it comes it kit form while the boosted pioneers are leaving their tire in thin lines down the pavement. its an expensive gamble to be sure, but if you got the brass and the deep pockets why not? the main problem i see is that we're not talking about a chevy 350 swap where you can find the engine lying around whole by the MILLIONS in junk yards... a land rover engine probably carries a bit more of a signifcant price tag. but with enough time and insanity anything is automotively possible.

Why don't you try it? :rolleyes:

Seriously. As the old saying goes, "Anything is possible with enough money". When someone asks a question like this, its more or less a given that money is an object. After all, if money was no object, there wouldn't be much point in bothering to ask if something could be done, it would just happen.

So can it be done? Sure. Does it make any practical sense? No. As I stated before, the gains realized by swapping a 3.5L Duratec for a 3L Duratec can most likely be realized through intake, exhaust and tune. So probably around $1000 total, just taking a complete shot in the dark guesstimate. Otherwise you'd be looking at likely $1000 for the engine alone, and I think the SCT Pro Racer Package was going for around $700 last time I looked, and you're going to need that to make the engine run right. So you're already several hundred dollars behind the simple bolt-on mods. You're also making a huge assumption the new engine is a direct bolt in for the old engine. I would bet massive sums of cash its not, so there's the wildcard "miscellaneous custom labor" that may or may not be able to be completed by the owner, and may or may not require expensive additional parts. So we'll take a complete and total guess and put that around $1000. So you're already up to $2700, and that doesn't even begin to include all the miscellaneous things necessary for the new engine (fluids, gaskets, etc) because no one would be foolish enough to go through all this pain and risk :q:q:q:qing something up because they were too lazy to give the engine a thorough reconditioning before putting it in their car.

Then there's labor cost, and call me skeptical, but I doubt someone with the ability to do an engine swap would be asking questions like "Is it possible to put this engine in to this car?", so considering most shops charge around $75 per hour and its probably around 15 hours of labor time to perform the swat, there's another $1200 or so.

So $4,000 for 26 horsepower? Thats a :q:q:q:qty way to spend your money if you ask me.

Look guys, it is only an inquiry at best. What if my engine went south next month. I would have to do a rebuild or complete replace. I would have my info at hand to do the upgrade to the 3.5. I don't want my engine to go south, but you never know. We all talk and ask questions here. I don't need replys that are all negative. Just asking questions thats all. How do you think I got that SST shifter in my 05' V6 car and it works just fine. I think maybe I should just stop posting here and get real answers from the llsoc group. Hey bigballedox you don't even have any pictures of your LS on here or what you have done to it. Do you even own an LS?

[QUOTE=JES_LS;227265]okay, I understand the 5.0 to 5.8 issues as well as a 4.6 dohc to 5.4 dohc swap in a mustang.

Yea my buddy has a 03 cobra (a running driving car i might add) it has a 5.4l dohc navigator block fully built by some company (cant remember the name) with HIS 4.6l dohc cobra heads fully built. he is running a direct sullavan 4.6l dohc replacment intank. the only thing he had to do is put these spacers between the intank and the heads , due to block height deferances. the car is single turboed and make just shy of 1500whp. What i'm getting at is that you can make it work even with different deck heights. it just would take some fabbing.

Look guys, it is only an inquiry at best. What if my engine went south next month. I would have to do a rebuild or complete replace. I would have my info at hand to do the upgrade to the 3.5. I don't want my engine to go south, but you never know. We all talk and ask questions here. I don't need replys that are all negative. Just asking questions thats all. How do you think I got that SST shifter in my 05' V6 car and it works just fine. I think maybe I should just stop posting here and get real answers from the llsoc group. Hey bigballedox you don't even have any pictures of your LS on here or what you have done to it. Do you even own an LS?

I love people like you who have no clue what they're getting in to and then get pissy when someone puts a little dose of reality in their coffee. Of course, if you were smart enough to notice you would have figured out that I didn't say it couldn't be done, I just said it would be ridiculously impractical. But hey, don't mind me, I obviously don't have a clue about what I'm doing. And what the :q:q:q:q does having pictures of my LS on here have anything to do with A.) owning the car and B.) more importantly, being completely right?

Someone should just pool together some money and stroke and bore already.