Addicted to 9/11
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Published: October 14, 2004
I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I hear the president and vice president slamming John Kerry for saying that he hopes America can eventually get back to a place where "terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they're a nuisance." The idea that President Bush and Mr. Cheney would declare such a statement to be proof that Mr. Kerry is unfit to lead actually says more about them than Mr. Kerry. Excuse me, I don't know about you, but I dream of going back to the days when terrorism was just a nuisance in our lives.

If I have a choice, I prefer not to live the rest of my life with the difference between a good day and bad day being whether Homeland Security tells me it is "code red" or "code orange" outside. To get inside the Washington office of the International Monetary Fund the other day, I had to show my ID, wait for an escort and fill out a one-page form about myself and my visit. I told my host: "Look, I don't want a loan. I just want an interview." Somewhere along the way we've gone over the top and lost our balance.

That's why Mr. Kerry was actually touching something many Americans are worried about - that this war on terrorism is transforming us and our society, when it was supposed to be about uprooting the terrorists and transforming their societies.

The Bush team's responses to Mr. Kerry's musings are revealing because they go to the very heart of how much this administration has become addicted to 9/11. The president has exploited the terrorism issue for political ends - trying to make it into another wedge issue like abortion, guns or gay rights - to rally the Republican base and push his own political agenda. But it is precisely this exploitation of 9/11 that has gotten him and the country off-track, because it has not only created a wedge between Republicans and Democrats, it's also created a wedge between America and the rest of the world, between America and its own historical identity, and between the president and common sense.

By exploiting the emotions around 9/11, Mr. Bush took a far-right agenda on taxes, the environment and social issues - for which he had no electoral mandate - and drove it into a 9/12 world. In doing so, Mr. Bush made himself the most divisive and polarizing president in modern history.

By using 9/11 to justify launching a war in Iraq without U.N. support, Mr. Bush also created a huge wedge between America and the rest of the world. I sympathize with the president when he says he would never have gotten a U.N. consensus for a strategy of trying to get at the roots of terrorism by reshaping the Arab-Muslim regimes that foster it - starting with Iraq.

But in politicizing 9/11, Mr. Bush drove a wedge between himself and common sense when it came to implementing his Iraq strategy. After failing to find any W.M.D. in Iraq, he became so dependent on justifying the Iraq war as the response to 9/11 - a campaign to bring freedom and democracy to the Arab-Muslim world - that he refused to see reality in Iraq. The president seemed to be saying to himself, "Something so good and right as getting rid of Saddam can't possibly be going so wrong." Long after it was obvious to anyone who visited Iraq that we never had enough troops there to establish order, Mr. Bush simply ignored reality. When pressed on Iraq, he sought cover behind 9/11 and how it required "tough decisions" - as if the tough decision to go to war in Iraq, in the name of 9/11, should make him immune to criticism over how he conducted the war.

Lastly, politicizing 9/11 put a wedge between us and our history. The Bush team has turned this country into "The United States of Fighting Terrorism." "Bush only seems able to express our anger, not our hopes," said the Mideast expert Stephen P. Cohen. "His whole focus is on an America whose role in the world is to negate the negation of the terrorists. But America has always been about the affirmation of something positive. That is missing today. Beyond Afghanistan, they've been much better at destruction than construction."

I wish Mr. Kerry were better able to articulate how America is going to get its groove back. But the point he was raising about wanting to put terrorism back into perspective is correct. I want a president who can one day restore Sept. 11th to its rightful place on the calendar: as the day after Sept. 10th and before Sept. 12th. I do not want it to become a day that defines us. Because ultimately Sept. 11th is about them - the bad guys - not about us. We're about the Fourth of July.

My God, SOMEBODY GETS IT!!!!!!!
I couldn't agree more. So well said. :I

Well done. Couldn't have said it better myself.

agreed

Wow, imagine something like that coming out in the middle of WWII. Except it would be called "Addicted to 12/7". I respectfully disagree with the premise that the terrorist threat has been over-stated. That is the lesson I learned on 9-11-01. It would be unforgivable if our president didn't learn that lesson as well.

I think you missed the point. :rolleyes:

I was going to say that.

That article is bologna. Bush's tax cut was before 9/11 and No Child Left Behind was well underway in Congress before 9/11. But why worry about facts when you can write an editorial that proves a faulty point with falsehoods.

What is the point of that article if not that terrorism is being over-stated and used for political purposes? The reality is that anti-war sentiment is being abused for political purposes and you guys don't want to admit it. Anti-Bush people get a twisted sense of satisfaction when the war in Iraq takes a bad turn. Good news coming out of Iraq is immediately pounced on and rebutted with a reminder of more bad news by the Bush haters. Failure in Iraq is a foregone conclusion by this group, and it makes me sick.

Wow, imagine something like that coming out in the middle of WWII. Except it would be called "Addicted to 12/7".

The difference between WWII and the Iraq war is that we retaliated against the actual country that bombed Pearl Harbor.
:Bang

The difference between WWII and the Iraq war is that we retaliated against the actual country that bombed Pearl Harbor.
We both know that there are a lot more differences than that, because under that logic, we couldn't have retaliated against any country for 9/11.

We can continue to debate and disagree whether it was right to go into Iraq or not. I prefer to focus on winning the situation we're in first, because how ever you look at it, a victory there would be beneficial to everyone except the terrorists (and Kerry).

Posted by Kbob: What is the point of that article if not that terrorism is being over-stated and used for political purposes
Ok, so you DO "get it". You just choose to ignore it. W would be proud. :rolleyes:

Ok, so you DO "get it". You just choose to ignore it. W would be proud. :sleep: :cool:

Obviously, I agree with the editorial, since I posted it. Kerry has hit the nail on the head with his comments about getting back to a point where terrorism is nothing more than a nusance. Anything else, and the terrorists have won, cause they want to force us to change the way we live. You can't defeat terrorism because it is atactic used in support of an idea, or belief, not a country. There will always be people who are willing to go to extremes for their cause, and you cannot condemn a country because there a few nuts within it's borders. If you are going to do that, we should be the first to go cause we have a lunatic in the office of the president.

I never liked the term "War on Terrorism" since it's like you said, a tactic. I prefer "War on Terrorists", but you say tomato and I say . . . . But being pro-active against terrorist organizations is the smart thing to do. And often times people are characterized as "lunatics" when they have the courage and vision to see a threat and warn others even when people don't see it themselves.

I never liked the term "War on Terrorism" since it's like you said, a tactic. I prefer "War on Terrorists", but you say tomato and I say . . . . But being pro-active against terrorist organizations is the smart thing to do. And often times people are characterized as "lunatics" when they have the courage and vision to see a threat and warn others even when people don't see it themselves.
honestly both of you have a valid point. personally i would like to go back to a time when the media isnt scaring the living crap out of everyone on a daily basis. i think the terrorist threat is highly over stressed i think that the media is the real problem. we need to focus on our lives and living them not empty threats. all the finger pointing isnt going to stop another attack if one is planned. trouncing one man over the other isnt going to help anything. look at the man who is better for the country as a whole not because he is for or against war. focus on the issues that matter health care, taxes,and economy dont harp on the stuff you cant do anything about. hang with your kids your wife the boys wash the car wax it. hunt fish or whatever you are into and if something bad happens again just be prepared for it keep your eyes open but stop harping and letting it control your life.
Eric :Beer

focus on the issues that matter health care, taxes,and economy dont harp on the stuff you cant do anything about. hang with your kids your wife the boys wash the car wax it. hunt fish or whatever you are into and if something bad happens again just be prepared for it keep your eyes open but stop harping and letting it control your life. Eric :Beer
That's all fine, well and good but none of it will really matter after the next round of attacks. I don't think we have seen anything yet.

Scare tactics??? How about - Reality check!!!

Our enemy is not playing. This is not a game. We can't turn on the lights, hoping to make the boogie-man go away. It won't be over till all the bad guys are dead or have a job, wife and kids. You know, something to lose.

You're obsessed! Eric and 97silverlsc are right. To have an administration that is so totally focused on terrorism is a very bad thing. As was said so many times following the attack of 9/11, we need to get on with our lives, go out to the movies, buy cars and houses etc. because if we let terrorism rule our lives, we've allowed the terrorists to win. Also, beyond that you need to remember that most of the great terroristic events to happen against Americans have been planned and carried out by other Americans! The attack on 9/11 is just the biggest one. I mean look at the Oklahoma City bombing, the Beltway shootings, the Anthrax scares, the list goes on and on and they're ALL Americans terrorizing Americans.
Yes, terrorism IS an ongoing problem that requires active monitoring and preventive measures but is it the NUMBER 1 problem facing our country as Bush would have us believe? Only an idiot would believe so.

We are getting on with our lives, who here isn't? You can choose to stick your head in the sand and believe that there is no threat if you want. I'm sure there were people in the U.S. during WWII that thought we were over-reacting to Japan and Germany. :rolleyes:

We are getting on with our lives, who here isn't? You can choose to stick your head in the sand and believe that there is no threat if you want. I'm sure there were people in the U.S. during WWII that thought we were over-reacting to Japan and Germany. :rolleyes:
see you are like most people in this world a sadist like myself included i sat watching those attacks that day mortified as the rest of us but also knowing it wasnt the big one and i like most people found myself looking for more devastation so i could sit back and feel that these terrorist schmucks were satisfied and we could go about our routines.

nobody is disputing that this is a real problem it is. and the crap has far from hit the fan yet i agree. but to spend every minute of your existence thinking and worrying for when its going to come is nuts. so live today cause tommorow might not come but it most likely will so live smart.

Don't get me going on Armegedon as a topic. The year 2000 bug was a REAL problem but once the hype took over, there were people actually expecting the end of the world on Jan. 1, 2000. Come on, get real.
It's a similar issue with terrorism. Yes, it's a problem but it's DEFINATELY NOT the problem that the Bush administration has led us to believe. And like it or not, all the Homeland Security policies, regulations and laws are not going to change the fact that in a free society like ours, if a terrorist wants to set off a bomb, or dump some bio agent in a water supply, there's little we can do to stop it. Controlling the fall-out from it is far more do-able for us. You'd have to be blind and deaf to miss all the news reports of weapons being smuggled on planes for the purpose of testing our new post-9/11 security provisions, right under the noses of the new screeners etc. Newark airport in NJ recently failed a test miserably. I think it was over 40% of the test weapons made it past security! Gee, you feeling safe now? All these new regulations have definately impacted our freedoms here but have done little to assure our security.
I know, we need to spend more! :slam

Many good points here.

We are currently living in a state of terror, exasperated by GW's lies and deceptions, the GOP and the media. Therefore we have already LOST the war on terrorISM.

GW started 2 wars while he was in office, the war on terrorists, and the war in Iraq. As a result we've dug ourselves into a hole. Now the REAL question is WHO is the best man to get us out of this hole?

The man who has alienated us from the rest of the world, decreasing any likelihood of obtaining their cooperation?

The man who under-staffed the initial war to capture Osama Bin-Ladin.......AND LET HIM SLIP THROUGH OUR FINGERS BY RELYING ON AN AFGANI TO PROTECT HIS ESCAPE ROUTE?

The man who LIED to us US citizens about the presense of WMD in Iraq to get us to rally behind him?

The man who initiated PREMPTIVE DEFENSE (an oxymoron if I've ever heard one) actions against a country / ruler that POSED NO IMMEDIATE THREAT TO THE US??

The man who disobeyed direct orders when he was "serving his country" during wartime?


I don't think so.

but to spend every minute of your existence thinking and worrying for when its going to come is nuts. so live today cause tommorow might not come but it most likely will so live smart.I agree with that, but raising a flag of concern is not worrying about it "every minute of your existence". You're first paragraph was a little strange since an even larger attack on us on 9/11 would have been met with an even larger counter-attack. In other words, the only way a terrorist organization will be "satisfied" is when they've won, and it's the job of the president to make sure they don't.

It's a similar issue with terrorism. Yes, it's a problem but it's DEFINATELY NOT the problem that the Bush administration has led us to believe. And like it or not, all the Homeland Security policies, regulations and laws are not going to change the fact that in a free society like ours, if a terrorist wants to set off a bomb, or dump some bio agent in a water supply, there's little we can do to stop it. Controlling the fall-out from it is far more do-able for us. So you're saying to enjoy ourselves now and just wait and deal with it when a nuclear bomb blows up LA then. :Bang I will repeat, this is wrong. You can keep posting your rhetoric, but it won't change the fact that your stand on this issue will lead to our destruction.

And Johnny, you really need to read more than just the Democratic talking points. gulp, gulp

So you're saying to enjoy ourselves now and just wait and deal with it when a nuclear bomb blows up LA then. :Bang I will repeat, this is wrong. You can keep posting your rhetoric, but it won't change the fact that your stand on this issue will lead to our destruction.


If you really think that we can actually stop a terrorist event from happening, you're kidding yourself and proving how little you know about the issue. A nuclear device would be quite a bit "harder" to smuggle in than most other WMD's but trust me it IS possible.
If you want to live your life in a box, have at it. Hey you install your panic room/bomb shelter yet? :rolleyes:

My God, SOMEBODY GETS IT!!!!!!!
I couldn't agree more. So well said. :I

:iconcur:

If you really think that we can actually stop a terrorist event from happening, you're kidding yourself and proving how little you know about the issue. A nuclear device would be quite a bit "harder" to smuggle in than most other WMD's but trust me it IS possible.
If you want to live your life in a box, have at it. Hey you install your panic room/bomb shelter yet? Make no mistake, you're the one kidding yourself due to your ignorance. When you constantly attack and overwhelm your enemy in a war, they don't have the time, resources, and capabilities to attack you in a meaningful way. To let up is to invite another attack. It's very funny that you question me if I've bought a bomb shelter yet since I believe that Bush's way lessens the likelihood of an attack here at home. You on the other hand subscribe to the Kerry doctrine that greatly increases the probability of a major catastrophe. So if anyone should buy a shelter it's you. But I forgot, you don't want to think about it. argue2

When you constantly attack and overwhelm your enemy in a war, they don't have the time, resources, and capabilities to attack you in a meaningful way.

And just what enemy do you suppose to attack? Where would you attack them? You forget that Terrorism is an ideal, not an actual entity. So basically ANYBODY, ANYWHERE can be a terrorist. Just how do you suppose to fight this battle? Oh that's right, you're a Bush fan. So as long as you label someone a terrorist, or say they have something to do with terrorists and then start pissing a lot of money away on hurting them, you're fighting the good fight. :rolleyes:
You obviously don't see what a bunch of sheep all you Bush supporters are. Bush waves an American flag and claims someone is a threat to our freedom, and you all go running off to fight his battle without a thought. It's a shame that so many of our true heros (our military personnel) have had to pay for your ignorance and Bushes arrogance.

And just what enemy do you suppose to attack? Where would you attack them? You forget that Terrorism is an ideal, not an actual entity. So basically ANYBODY, ANYWHERE can be a terrorist. Just how do you suppose to fight this battle? Oh that's right, you're a Bush fan. So as long as you label someone a terrorist, or say they have something to do with terrorists and then start pissing a lot of money away on hurting them, you're fighting the good fight. :rolleyes:
You obviously don't see what a bunch of sheep all you Bush supporters are. Bush waves an American flag and claims someone is a threat to our freedom, and you all go running off to fight his battle without a thought. It's a shame that so many of our true heros (our military personnel) have had to pay for your ignorance and Bushes arrogance.

If GW could really have his way, it would be "Shoot them all, let MY GOD sort them out."

And just what enemy do you suppose to attack? Where would you attack them? You forget that Terrorism is an ideal, not an actual entity. So basically ANYBODY, ANYWHERE can be a terrorist. Just how do you suppose to fight this battle?I realize this is a probably a foreign term to you (j/k) but the greatest tool to find out who is or isn't an enemy of the U.S. is "intelligence". Even Kerry agrees (at least for the moment) we need more and better intelligence. And where should we be fighting these terrorists? Right now it's obviously Iraq, regardless if you believe it was right to go there in the first place or not. But why acknowledge the obvious when we should all just submit to the inevitable and enjoy our last meal before our execution (metaphorically speaking of course). Kerry has his sheep too, only he's leading you to slaughter.

LOL!!!
You're funny.
Intelligence huh? Like the intelligence that told us we needed to invade Iraq? No, sorry, what we need is some common sense in government and I don't see that happening anytime soon. We have tried to substitute for common sense with an endless array of policies, regulations and laws. We make appointments and form committees to study all kinds of crap. We've spent millions, no sorry BILLIONS on this crap for years and still we can't manage to do better than 40% accuracy of finding weapons at one of the busiest airports in the country. We still aren't inspecting more than a tiny percentage of all cargo containers coming in to the country from who knows where. I PERSONALLY know how easy it is to bring items into the country without anyone knowing because I used to work on both sides of the Mexican/American border.
If we're significantly more secure now than we were prior to 9/11, I'd have to conclude that virtually ANYONE could have downed the World Trade Center. The government has no clue what's up half the time. They're so disorganized they spend half their time (and most of our tax dollars) chasing their own tails. How 'bout spending millions on a light armoured vehicle that can be quickly and easily transported anywhere via helicopter, only to find out once they have them that they're too heavy and too large for the helicopters! Can you say STUPID?
Sorry, you're depending too much on the government for your safety. You're starting to sound like a DEMOCRAT!!

You go, Katshot. You've got em on the ropes. now.

This argument keeps moving further and further into the stupid range. Don't count on the government to protect me? Then what is the military for then? A strong defense has been a staple of the Republican platform for a long long time now, and trying to portray it as Democratic is downright ridiculous, along with anyone that thinks that was some kind of a knock-out punch. Why are you against more and better intelligence when the left in general claims that the failure in intelligence allowed the attack on 9/11 to occur? And you brought up Iraq, so I guess you think what we got is sufficient? If nothing else those 2 instances should tell you we're behind the curve on intelligence. You offer no rational alternative but a doctrine of ignore and react that is doomed to failure. Another big attack and our whole way of life is toast and you're just fooling yourself if you actually believe otherwise.

The failure in intelligence before 9/11 was Shrub's cause he doesn't have any!!!!

Another big attack and our whole way of life is toast and you're just fooling yourself if you actually believe otherwise.

Dude, you sound like chicken little! I'm beginning to think that you're hoping for something major to happen just so you can say "I told you so". Not sure how old you are but we lived through the Cuban missle crisis a long time ago, and believe me, THAT was a REAL threat. The vast majority of the terrorist threat was exaggerated but thatnks to Bush it IS getting worse. Hell, if it wasn't for him, I think we'd be safer. He's painted bull's eyes on all of us.

Dude, you sound like chicken little! I'm beginning to think that you're hoping for something major to happen just so you can say "I told you so". Not sure how old you are but we lived through the Cuban missle crisis a long time ago, and believe me, THAT was a REAL threat. The vast majority of the terrorist threat was exaggerated but thatnks to Bush it IS getting worse. Hell, if it wasn't for him, I think we'd be safer. He's painted bull's eyes on all of us.I resent that accusation and nothing could be further from the truth. If I remind you of chicken little, you remind me of the captain of the Titanic: "Enjoy yourselves! Full steam ahead! Nothing can sink us!" I'm not old enough to remember that firsthand, though, but hopefully you won't hold that against me too. And that bull's eye has been on us for a long time. I know your opinion about Bush, and my opinion is that Kerry will likely make that bull's eye even bigger.

It's not that I hold your age against you, I'm just using it to point out that you aren't old enough to remember when this country faced REAL threats. You and others like you are so easily mislead by Bush into thinking that terrorists are all around you and somehow a war in Iraq is going to help keep you safe. It's actually done quite the opposite, but you want to play that down. The war in a Iraq was and is a huge mistake. One that has led our country into a very precarious position in the world. It's also building the largest deficit in history. Bush spends money like he's got a money tree in the rose garden of the White House! And all in the name of global security from terrorism. What a crock! And you all buy into it hook, line, and sinker.

It's not that I hold your age against you, I'm just using it to point out that you aren't old enough to remember when this country faced REAL threats. You and others like you are so easily mislead by Bush into thinking that terrorists are all around you and somehow a war in Iraq is going to help keep you safe. It's actually done quite the opposite, but you want to play that down. The war in a Iraq was and is a huge mistake. One that has led our country into a very precarious position in the world. It's also building the largest deficit in history. Bush spends money like he's got a money tree in the rose garden of the White House! And all in the name of global security from terrorism. What a crock! And you all buy into it hook, line, and sinker.
i think that the point is getting so very missed it isnt funny. the point is something is coming from somewhere at sometime no doubt. bush isnt going to stop or facilitate its coming neither is kerry. now we need to pick a man who is going to a: act on what happens b: clean up the mess. and lets forget about chicken little if we want to think about fairy tales here lets consider for a moment the boy who cryed wolf all the crying about this terrorist stuff from the media has made so many people so tired of hearing it that when a credable threat does come we are gonna get smacked because no one believes it is real. as for real threats the cuban missle crisis was very real for the 60s and 70s the U.S.S.R. was a very real threat in the 80s dont you remember all the fear of the bomb? yes we have a big red target placed on all of us but George Bush didnt paint it and John Kerry wont erase it. like that Billy Joel song We Didnt Start The Fire. all this sh@$ is like the daylight it is coming it will burn you if you dont prepare for it but it is coming and noone can stop it. :eek:

The point WAS (as was pointed out by Thomas Friedman in his article) that we are being lead into a mindset by the Bush administration that is VERY unhealthy for the American people as a whole. We ALL need to understand that it is happening and stop it. We NEED to adopt a proper mindset which allows for us to be vigilant for, yet not obsessed with terrorism. We were turned into a country of victims by the attack on 9/11 and that is only because we let it happen. We have to understand that it was our own complacency that allowed it to happen. It should have been a wake-up call but was somehow turned into a battle cry instead. I believe that it has even been turned into a tool of sorts by the Bush administration to further their own agenda, and it makes me angry. Angry that it happened, and angry that so many Americans can't see it. It just shows how easily we, as a people can be "programmed" by a single entity. It's like Jim Jones times a million! All you Bush fans fail to see that he's feeding you Cool-Aid and you're taking it with a smile.

It's not that I hold your age against you, I'm just using it to point out that you aren't old enough to remember when this country faced REAL threats. You and others like you are so easily mislead by Bush into thinking that terrorists are all around you and somehow a war in Iraq is going to help keep you safe. It's actually done quite the opposite, but you want to play that down. The war in a Iraq was and is a huge mistake. One that has led our country into a very precarious position in the world. It's also building the largest deficit in history. Bush spends money like he's got a money tree in the rose garden of the White House! And all in the name of global security from terrorism. What a crock! And you all buy into it hook, line, and sinker.As I've said, I know what your OPINION is, but don't try to play it as fact. You're just saying the same thing over and over, but I didn't start this thread and I'm not about to let you have the last word on this issue. And I don't appreciate that you think you're somehow wiser than me being perhaps a few years older than me. 2 of my older brothers and 1 of my older sisters got married at an early age because of pregnancy. All 3 marriages ended badly. I didn't have to go through that mess to understand that I needed to take some precautions. By the way, 2 of them are probably older than you, so you can see that their age may have been a detriment :N . And for the record, Kennedy played hardball with the Soviets during that crisis, he didn't pussy-foot around like Kerry will probably do and like you would have us do. Save your lectures bro, cause I'm not easily swayed or "lead astray". I don't believe what I believe because Bush says so. I believe what I do because I look at the situation and make my own conclusion. I don't like you portraying me as someone who believes there's a terrorist behind every corner either, cause I do have a life that I greatly enjoy. Football season is on and OU is doing great; deer season is here and it should be a record harvest and hopefully I'll get 2 this year; I'm going to see my oldest daughter play in the high school band at half time tonight at her schools football game; afterwards I'll go to the fitness club and work out; tomorrow night my wife and I are going to see the Gaithers in concert; Saturday I'll go to my other 2 daughters' soccer games and then watch the 2nd half of OU vs. Kansas on tv (should be a blow-out); that night I may take my wife out to eat and see a movie.

I'll attempt to explain where the threat is. It's not just terrorism that is a problem, it's well-funded terrorist organizations that are the main threat. You've pointed out that a lot of small groups and even individuals can cause havoc, but I'm not worried about those. These terrorist organizations are mainly state-sponsored. I know full well what you're thinking now: "Kbob wants us to invade other countries too, and it'll be a blood bath!!! They're all lunatics!!!" But that is not the case. I don't wish to repeat the situation in Iraq, and neither does anyone else, including Bush (you of course will disagree with that). But just like you pointed out in the Cuban missile crisis, playing hardball works, and there are lots of ways to play hardball. And like Neville Chamberlain showed us at the beginning of WWII, appeasement usually does not work, although I realize it should be looked at case by case.

I know you think going into Iraq was a mistake. I agree that there have been mistakes made in Iraq, but I'm withholding judgment on whether or not it was right or wrong until there is a clearer outcome, one way or the other. I still believe that it could turn out advantageously. These are all opinions, and if you want to go another round, then let's get it on.

Not gonna let me get the last word in huh? :N
I wasn't trying to say that I'm "wiser" than you at all, and certainly not because I'm older than you. Actually, we're probably about the same age. My youngest is a senior in high-school too. I'm just used to your mentality being more common in a young person, possibly a Gen-X'r. They have no idea about this whole thing since they have no experience to draw on. There have been no actual wars during their lives. They don't remember air-raid drills, or being in school and having to hide under your desk during an air-raid. I was pretty young but I remember them. And I remember the mindset of the country during those times. Most of the younger people (under 40 for example) these days are a bunch of whiners that think everyone owes them and they don't have a clue about values we grew up with like pride in doing a job right, or working for a goal vs. trying to find a short-cut. About Honor and devotion. Try to get a 20 or 30 year old to do something just because they said they would. The whole idea of being a man of your WORD is a joke to them. Now it's all about the bottom line, whether you win or lose, not how you play the game.
Sorry, getting off on a tangent. :rolleyes:
Yes, you're right, I AM repeating myself so it's time to let this die. Bottom line: If Bush wins another 4 years, I hope you're right, and if Kerry wins, I hope you're wrong. Have a great weekend with your family.
:Beer

Bottom line: If Bush wins another 4 years, I hope you're right, and if Kerry wins, I hope you're wrong. Have a great weekend with your family.
:BeerTo be honest, I don't think I'm as worried about Kerry being president as I think you are about Bush being president. If another big attack did occur under Kerry, he'd be like the president in "The West Wing" and he'd bomb the heck out of whoever was responsible. ;)

Ditto on your weekend and :Beer

[QUOTE=Katshot] :N
I wasn't trying to say that I'm "wiser" than you at all, and certainly not because I'm older than you. Actually, we're probably about the same age. My youngest is a senior in high-school too. I'm just used to your mentality being more common in a young person, possibly a Gen-X'r. They have no idea about this whole thing since they have no experience to draw on. There have been no actual wars during their lives. They don't remember air-raid drills, or being in school and having to hide under your desk during an air-raid. I was pretty young but I remember them. And I remember the mindset of the country during those times. Most of the younger people (under 40 for example) these days are a bunch of whiners that think everyone owes them and they don't have a clue about values we grew up with like pride in doing a job right, or working for a goal vs. trying to find a short-cut. About Honor and devotion. Try to get a 20 or 30 year old to do something just because they said they would. The whole idea of being a man of your WORD is a joke to them. Now it's all about the bottom line, whether you win or lose, not how you play the game.

I'm so damn sick to death of some of the baby-boomers constantly whining about my generation (Gen-X)) and the subsequent (Gen-Y) generation not being responsible, not having a strong work ethic, etc...
I am and have always been a genuine, hard-working andRESPONSIBLE (I.E. MAN-OF-MY-WORD) human for the past 33 years I have been on this Earth! For your information:
A) Baby Boomers with their "Free-love" and "If It Feels Good Do It" attitudes of the 1960 and 70's are responsible for great tragedies such as the AIDS/HIV crisis from the 1980's to today.( At least partially,anyways.)
B) Baby Boomers are primarily the parents of these Gen-X and Y 20-30 year-olds (and guess what? THE APPLE USUALLY DOES NOT FALL FROM THE TREE DOES IT?) with all of this "new-wave" psychological tough-love, time-out B.S. parenting( I actually believe it was sometime in the early 1980's was when slapping/spanking your child went from a disciplinary action to child abuse.) was exploding across the country. Why do you think kids have no sense of respect for any adult today, thank you.
C) And my final big point on baby-boomers is: Y'all are the biggest HYPOCRITES I have ever seen! When you were in your teen's and twentie's you were so gonna change the world and live in such unity and equality and nobody would have to worry about anything because this world would be such a F*****g utopia and there would be no wars, blah,blah,blah--
YAP,YAP,YAP, and the world would drink their f*****g little coca-colas and harmony would be the standard of the world.......WHAT THE F**K HAPPENED?!? HUH?!?
I may never have had to worry about air-raids growing up in the 1970's and 80's, but, I"ve had MORE than my share of earthquake drills, tornado warnings, seen more drive-by's and senseless act of violence in my days so much that I NEVER WANT CHILDREN TO RAISE UP IN THIS F*****D-UP MESS OF A WORLD WE LIVE IN TODAY! And finally, the urban epidemic of gang violence of the 1980's and 1990's seems like nothing but a gentile lullaby compared to today. I and other responsible (born after 1965) members of society today take high offense at crass and obviously unfounded statements that were made in the quote above. Hey buddy, I may not have much, but damnit I busted my ass wide open to get what I do have, just because YOU see 20-30 year-olds as crap, dosen't mean we are, and remember, us children are the products of our parents.

(I also must state I do not disrespect all of those in the baby-boomer generation, just when someone make ignorant statements such as what's been quoted above. And even then I do not disrespect but, will make my opinion abundantly clear!) (ps my closest Friend was born in 1951! and a Boomer if I ever saw one:) ) (Think before you speak, others are watching...)
Pps NO ONE OWES ME A F*****G THING ! I BUST MY ASS FOR WHAT I WANT!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, I mean no disrespect, to anyone. I was raised to understand that you get in life what you work for to achieve, and those statements HIGHLY offended me not only as one of the people in the group mentioned, but also as a man,in general and the sense of who I am in this world felt assaulted by those carelessly planned statements.
I was also raised up to stand up for myself and others when I feel I and others are being targeted as a member of a group, especially when false generalizations are made.
(No hard feelings here, ) Thank You.
*Please forgive the vulgar language in above thread.*
( My parents raised me to be a gentleman. My parents also did a pretty damn good job, and they were Boomers,too)

I don't think so.
KERRY LIED
MILLIONS DIED!

And just what enemy do you suppose to attack? Where would you attack them? You forget that Terrorism is an ideal, not an actual entity. So basically ANYBODY, ANYWHERE can be a terrorist. Just how do you suppose to fight this battle? YOU TELL US , O' WISE ONE.

WHAT IS YOUR PLAN? If you are a sheep of the Kerry Klan like I suspect you are, I know you don't have one. Just like your master doesn't have one.

Baaaaaaaaaaa.

For the record, I'm 36. I'll get out of the way now.

You are wise beyond your years, young Skywalker!



For the record, I'm 36. I'll get out of the way now.

You are wise beyond your years, young Skywalker!Unfortunately, I'm balding beyond my years as well, lol! I'm sure there are some who wonder which Skywalker I am. I'll keep 'em guessing.

Man, I have a full head of hair and I haven't had a hair cut in 6 months. I think Joey saw me last so I think he knows how long it must be.

My Mrs. is P.O'ed about me growing long hair so I went to my "hottie" hair dresser and had her do a 'trim'. She basically washed my hair and gave me a nice head massage. LOL. But I got a receipt.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon14.gif

I figure by next month I will be able to do a nice Steven Segal pony tail, (no, I'm not gay). Fa la la la la.

I haven't had hair this long in over 20 years. YeeHaa.

Again, I mean no disrespect, to anyone. I was raised to understand that you get in life what you work for to achieve, and those statements HIGHLY offended me not only as one of the people in the group mentioned, but also as a man,in general and the sense of who I am in this world felt assaulted by those carelessly planned statements.
I was also raised up to stand up for myself and others when I feel I and others are being targeted as a member of a group, especially when false generalizations are made.
(No hard feelings here, ) Thank You.
*Please forgive the vulgar language in above thread.*
( My parents raised me to be a gentleman. My parents also did a pretty damn good job, and they were Boomers,too)

Obviously, not EVERY Gen-X or Gen-Y'r is a lazy, disrespectful, whiner but whether you like it or not, MOST ARE. Your statements are proving my point in a way too. All I see is you trying to blame others for situations you are in. Quit whining and DO something about it. Blame your parents for who you are today? Sure, that's easy I guess. Problem is, that just isn't right. I know plenty of great people that came from terrible homes, and vice versa. Your parents surely have been an influence but they are hardly responsible for you being a self-centered ass, or a giving, caring saint of a person. That's in YOU. YOU make that choice for youself. It disgusts my when I read about some guy that tortures and kills a woman and then when he's caught, everyone starts talking about how he had a tough childhood. Screw that, FRY THE BASTARD!

OH, and BTW, I've got a full head of hair too. :biggrin:

Actually, Katshot, it would appear that you're as guilty of what you accused Randeaux of doing. You're reminding him of how Gen-x'ers blame everyone else (e.g. their parents) for the situation that they're in today. Meanwhile, you're actively blaming Gen-X'ers for the situation today as well. Seems to me that you're slingin a lot of rocks in that glass house of yours.

I agree that this pattern of behavior involving blaming everyone but themselves has seemingly become more rampant in recent years, but Gen-X'ers aren't the only ones engaged in it, as is evidenced by your own point of view.

The simple point is this: You're living in today's society too, thus you're just as responsible as anyone else..........including Gen-X'ers. Actually, that's another thing that irritates the hell out of me........Why do we have to deliniate ourselves into such individualized categories? Today, we have Gen-X'ers, Baby Boomers, Gen-Y'ers, Free Lovers, African-Americans, Irish-Americans, Asian-Americans, Gay-Americans, unionized-Americans, etc, etc, etc. This is the reason we can't get anything accomplished in this country anymore. We all want to individualize ourselves to whatever "group" we want to be identified with, so that we all feel like segregated, special, little 'snowflakes', which is a massive load of fertilizer. Whatever happened to being a part of that other group simply called "Americans"? We have, all of us, actively made efforts to separate ourselves from each other in this country, and then we wonder why we don't know each other, nor can get along on anything anymore............gee, I wonder why.

We create these walls, or lines of distinction, because we want special attention to be paid to our particular interest. This is the basis of special interest lobbyists that have perverted our system of government to this degree that it has become. Also, don't think our government is going to do anything about this problem, as it has no vested interest in doing so. Simply put, the concensus in our federal government appears to be that if the rest of the nation is bickering over every little thing (e.g. generation names and blames), then as a whole we become incapable of achieving what those in government fear most...............change. If this country was able to act as a nation again, our government may actually have to become somewhat effective, as each elected official would actually have to fear his or her own constituency because they know they can be eliminated for not doing the job properly. Currently, all a politician has to do is pull the right lie out of his or her briefcase to quell whatever concerns each rally they go to has. If they have a luncheon with the beekeepers association of America, then you can guarantee that they'll say whatever it takes to make those people believe that their hobby and livlihood is protected before all others. That's crap, plain and simple. If those beekeepers stopped them in their lies, and said "Well, that's all fine and good that you're going to see that honey isn't taxed as much, but can you tell us what you're going to do for the rest of our neighbors and fellow citizens, in detail?" I'm quite certain that they'd have to start to stick to a plan, as every individual group would hold them to the plan that benefits the whole, not just every little group.

I have no issue with individualized interests, and I believe that individual interests and rights should be protected and fostered. But I don't believe that individual interests should be placed before the needs of a nation, but that has become how our country is run, and it will eventually be the cause of our demise, governmentally speaking.

Anyway, to sum up, you're both guilty of blaming when everyone is at fault. The culpability of the state this nation is in rests on every person calling themselves a citizen of this country, and that's the way it should be. If we, as a nation, realized this simple little point, we'd probably be able to interact better, and possibly make changes that would improve things dramatically.

I know, I'll get blasted for my point of view, but I have spent my life watching human behavior, I have studied it both informally, and formally (as I have a few degrees in this kind of crap), as well as being an employee in the federal government. I might actually have a mild clue as to what I'm talking about. Then again, i could be just as full of crap as the next guy......but that's not for me to decide..........it's for all of us.

You're quite right, perfectly said.

Good post, LSCR351. I think you know what you're talking about. Either that or you're full of crap, just like the rest of us, LOL!! :Beer

It's all Bush's fault!http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon12.gif

LSCR351,

In general I agree with everthing you said. This country has become much more divided along many more lines than 4 years ago.

However, my observation is that there is a generational difference. My age group grew up with the threat of Vietnam and free love and lots of drugs. A lot of us were given the freedom to do what we wanted, when we wanted.

Interestingly, the people of that generation had children and overprotected them, fearing that they would turn into themselves. Today's parents do everything for their kids. This has had a backlash effect leaving a lot of kids without the skills to maneuver through this world.

My age group grew up with the threat of Vietnam and free love and lots of drugs.
Now that explains alot!!!http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon12.gif

It's all Bush's fault!http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon12.gif

I knew you'd finally get it right! ;)

Barry2952, I never suggested that each generation hasn't had different obstacles to deal with over the years. My point was more to the effect that we fall back on our group affiliations in order to blame others (e.g.....the Gen-X versus the BabyBoomers). Both groups have had different issues specific to them, but it doesn't detract from the fact that each group has to deal with the issues of today, perhaps in different ways, but it's still necessary. We divide and conquer ourselves when we cannot put our individualism aside in favor of at least a modicum of nationalism to try to strive for the greater good.

Your point is well founded, but it's still a specific generational issue that separates groups from each other. Yes, the baby boomers may have over-protected their young and possibly caused some of the issue, but at the same time the Gen-X'ers do have the free will, and the ability to take control of their own lives...........if they stopped wasting time blaming previous generations for their plight, perhaps they could get something done, just as if Babyboomers stopped blaming Gen-X'ers for being listless, lazy, etc, they might be part of the solution as well.

I hate to quote a wingnut like Rodney King, but the simple fact is that we all need to "get along". Seems simple, but it's proven more difficult than a nation of 280 million can handle well.

Again, my $.02 worth. Doesn't mean I know better, but it's just a point of view that holds EVERYBODY accountable, as it should be.

LSCR351 : I have to admit you are right, myself. And it is wrong on my part too, to act as I did last night.


Katshot: I do understand where you are coming from, and I probably shouldn't have taken the shot so personally. There are always going to be some crap in every batch. Finally, I do take responsibility for my own actions, and will admit when I am in the wrong. (Which I was wrong to lash-out as I did, on so many levels.) I wrote what I did to possibly show you through crass generalizations how I had felt when I read what you wrote.And I did write,what I did write,also in an angered, heated response. I never said that all in GenX/Y were all angels, however, not all are demons either.Which you appearently understood in your post later down the line. I apologize to you for my manner in that post again .
( Yes, I had a very rough childhood, but what's in the past is in the past,I'm looking forwards to tomorrow,each day I get farther from the past, the days get better;)!)

I'm looking forwards to tomorrow,each day I get farther from the past, the days get better!)I hear ya bro, I hear ya.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon14.gif