EDIT: I Split this thread into a new one since it strayed so far from the original thread.


Im going to pick it up now - :D

My mechanic said he freaked the neighborhood out when he test drove it. LOLOLOL


Dynotune tomorrow am - Videos and dyno slips to follow....

Dynotune tomorrow am - Videos and dyno slips to follow....
248 rwhp
241 rwtq

248 rwhp
241 rwtq


You starting a pool?

You starting a pool?
Just testing my incredible knowledge of these cars.

Those strut rod bushings are made my Moog. I just did the strut rod bushings that attach to the control arm on my old '95 today. Got 'em from RockAuto.com

Yes, those strut rod bushings are very good, high quality parts... I had them on my 95 LSC.

Yes and no. I too believe the average driver won't feel or benefit from these kind of rotors and they are mostly for looks. However I do believe in a track/road coarse type condition they breath better and therefore stop better over the duration. Less brake fade after repeated hard stops. Just like all performance mods, there not going to last as long and have draw backs. Brake pad wear, cracking, etc.

I do believe they are probably proven many times over to out perform stockers in performance braking situation.

But what do I know about anything.


I came across an article that explained why you would want slotted rotors. The slots allow the gasses that are developed from hard braking to escape from being squeezed between the rotor and pad. Without those slots, the gasses escaping will cause the brake pads to "chatter" as the heat and gasses escape from the friction.
The cross drilled is somewhat the same theory, as well as rolling mass reduction. The technology and race theory is for the guys who have dedicated cars that race on twisty tracks for many miles and hours. Not for the cats who drive to work, grocery and back home.
They sure are pretty to look at though.:cool:

Drilled/slotted rotors DO NOT outperform blanks. Period.


I own/operate an SCCA Improved Touring E-class Mustang. This car will repeatedly stop itself from 165-170 mph every lap at Firebird main course (about once every one and a quarter minutes) The brake setup is as follows:

Cobra calipers (yes, the crappy PBR ones)
Very solid brake ducting
Very good (expensive) DOT 4 fluid
Hawk Blacks or SBC race pads


...drumroll...


and Brembo blanks.


The outgassing mentioned in this thread is not a problem with modern brake pads. Drilling/slotting rotors does the following:

1. Decreases the overall mass of the rotor, thereby reducing its ability to absorb/dissipate heat.
2. Increases pad wear by the holes/slots digging into the pad
3. TREMENDOUSLY increases the chance for the rotor to crack
4. Disrupts the natural strength of the casting because there are now additional stress risers.


If any of you spend any time at a road course, you'll notice that even on uber-racecars, blanks outnumber drilled/slotted by probably ten to one. The only people that have drilled/slotted rotors are (especially) the Porsche guys because those holes are actually cast into the rotor.

If anyone of you don't believe me, feel free to view this thread:

http://corner-carvers.com/altimathread.php.html

This is the 'infamous' thread saved for posterity by corner-carvers forums all about this subject. The folks at www.corner-carvers.com are, IMHO, one of the best no BS locations for hardcore tech on the internet.





With that said, I have drilled/slotted rotors on my silver mustang. Why? Because they look cool. :D

Paul.

248 rwhp
241 rwtq


252.83 RWP

I cant give an exact on the Torque because the graph screwed up a bit at the end and shows 287.78, which is wrong. But it looks like about 254 RWTQ


Cant say I know much about these things to be honest, but I bet I'll be learning alot shortly. I have videos, but the camera is in the car and im too lazy to go get it right now. A little later.

One interesting thing, is that it appears I have gained in gas mileage. I cant say for certain, but it looks like I picked up about 3-4MPG so far. That may not sound like much, but at 1 tank of gas a week, thats a savings of about 2-3 gallons of gas per tank, and 300-400 gallons per year. So at todays gas prices, it was well worth it to have the tune done.

Here are a few shots from the dyno today....

The second set of pics are a car they are working on that looks like it will be quite mean...


Videos to come soon.

Holey friggin frehole's

Nice numbers Joey... what rpm did you make peak horsepower at? Is that a twin turbo LS1 engine?

Nice numbers Joey... what rpm did you make peak horsepower at?



About 6000

Congradulations Joey. I like your front plate. Arent you lucky you have gold members ....:D
Yea I too like that impala 59 or 60 allways like those body styles. That thing must be a rocket:eek: :eek: :eek:

Drilled/slotted rotors DO NOT outperform blanks. Period.


I own/operate an SCCA Improved Touring E-class Mustang. This car will repeatedly stop itself from 165-170 mph every lap at Firebird main course (about once every one and a quarter minutes) The brake setup is as follows:

Cobra calipers (yes, the crappy PBR ones)
Very solid brake ducting
Very good (expensive) DOT 4 fluid
Hawk Blacks or SBC race pads


...drumroll...


and Brembo blanks.


The outgassing mentioned in this thread is not a problem with modern brake pads. Drilling/slotting rotors does the following:

1. Decreases the overall mass of the rotor, thereby reducing its ability to absorb/dissipate heat.
2. Increases pad wear by the holes/slots digging into the pad
3. TREMENDOUSLY increases the chance for the rotor to crack
4. Disrupts the natural strength of the casting because there are now additional stress risers.


If any of you spend any time at a road course, you'll notice that even on uber-racecars, blanks outnumber drilled/slotted by probably ten to one. The only people that have drilled/slotted rotors are (especially) the Porsche guys because those holes are actually cast into the rotor.

If anyone of you don't believe me, feel free to view this thread:

http://corner-carvers.com/altimathread.php.html

This is the 'infamous' thread saved for posterity by corner-carvers forums all about this subject. The folks at www.corner-carvers.com are, IMHO, one of the best no BS locations for hardcore tech on the internet.





With that said, I have drilled/slotted rotors on my silver mustang. Why? Because they look cool. :D

Paul.

Can't say I have ever experienced any of those negative effects. I've got 40,000 hard driven miles on a set with no negative effects at all. Nothing is different aside from them actually lasting this long.

The racing info is nice and all, but brakes using racing pads will always react differently that brakes using street pads. A good racing pad can make even the most underequipped braking system work quite adequately.

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/joey/wplayer.jpg Video Clip of Dynotune (http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/joey/05-28-06Dynotune.wmv) on 05/27/06


Its also posted in my Photo Gallery (http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=375) along with the Kooks Headers Video

One interesting thing, is that it appears I have gained in gas mileage. I cant say for certain, but it looks like I picked up about 3-4MPG so far. That may not sound like much, but at 1 tank of gas a week, thats a savings of about 2-3 gallons of gas per tank, and 300-400 gallons per year. So at todays gas prices, it was well worth it to have the tune done.

Different car and motor I know, but my gas mileage went up when I went from 3.27s to 4.10s. The motor spends less time lugging around and more time in the power band.

Nice numbers, dude!

Hey Joey..

It was a pleasure meeting you and tuning your car. I am pleased with the results. If you had stayed 5 minutes longer, Glen with the Mark8 showed up. You guys could have talked about INTAKES!! As I told you, let me know if you have any issues or want to change shift points. I will get that taken care of asap!

As far as gas mileage, it sounds like what I told you. The computer was trying to compensate by pulling 25% fuel (max short term) prior to the tune.. Now the short term trims are right in line and the WOT was leaned out 10-11%..

I will get you the electronic dyno sheets on tuesday.

thanks bob

Hey Joey..

It was a pleasure meeting you and tuning your car. I am pleased with the results. If you had stayed 5 minutes longer, Glen with the Mark8 showed up. You guys could have talked about INTAKES!! As I told you, let me know if you have any issues or want to change shift points. I will get that taken care of asap!

As far as gas mileage, it sounds like what I told you. The computer was trying to compensate by pulling 25% fuel (max short term) prior to the tune.. Now the short term trims are right in line and the WOT was leaned out 10-11%..

I will get you the electronic dyno sheets on tuesday.

thanks bob

You did a great job Bob, Thanks!

Im Speechless The Godfather Passed Through My Town (most Likley Stillman Valley Just 10 Miles East On 72) I .........feel ..........honored Sir

Im Speechless The Godfather Passed Through My Town (most Likley Stillman Valley Just 10 Miles East On 72) I .........feel ..........honored Sir


ROFL! Honord huh! Well thank you. Im in Shaumburg frequently. Usually up at Woodfield Mall.

GREATFULLY BOWS, woodfield huh? been there a few times all i rembered was it was HUGE and i think we then went to Dave and Busters and after that i dont rember nothing (dont worry used a d.d.) could u pm me the # to the place in byron i tend to whore myself (w/labor) ot pay for goodies and with this place just up the road it is possible, very possible!!

GREATFULLY BOWS, woodfield huh? been there a few times all i rembered was it was HUGE and i think we then went to Dave and Busters and after that i dont rember nothing (dont worry used a d.d.) could u pm me the # to the place in byron i tend to whore myself (w/labor) ot pay for goodies and with this place just up the road it is possible, very possible!!



Number to what place in Byron??

252.83 RWP

I could kick myself if you got that number off the 2nd or 3rd pull.
How many pulls did you get.

I was going to post a 252 number if you got more than 1 pull because the guy would have got that with the tune.

I posted the number but then pulled it fearing I would look like too much of a know-it-all. I also had the 2nd gen intake holding down your rwtq numbers. Looks like that intake is not as horrible as it seems compared to the Gen 1.

Are you going to b!tch slap Driller at Carlisle now? :eek: LOL :D

2nd Gens rule. All you 1st Gen guys can just sit and drool.:cool:

P.S. Joey, was that number the 1st or 3rd pull? If the 3rd, what was the 1st number.

GREATFULLY BOWS, woodfield huh? been there a few times all i rembered was it was HUGE and i think we then went to Dave and Busters and after that i dont rember nothing (dont worry used a d.d.) could u pm me the # to the place in byron i tend to whore myself (w/labor) ot pay for goodies and with this place just up the road it is possible, very possible!!

I think you are talking about me... I live out in Byron, BUT I am a mobile tuner... Ive been tuning and racing cars for over 15yrs... If you are interested in a dyno tune, I use a dyno out of Machesney Park for people in this area.. If anything else, please PM me.

thanks bob

2nd Gens rule. All you 1st Gen guys can just sit and drool.:cool:

Until we see that whale-like front end.:D

Until we see that whale-like front end.:D
In reality, all you get to see is our rear-ends, pretty they are.

I could kick myself if you got that number off the 2nd or 3rd pull.
How many pulls did you get.

I was going to post a 252 number if you got more than 1 pull because the guy would have got that with the tune.

I posted the number but then pulled it fearing I would look like too much of a know-it-all. I also had the 2nd gen intake holding down your rwtq numbers. Looks like that intake is not as horrible as it seems compared to the Gen 1.

Are you going to b!tch slap Driller at Carlisle now? :eek: LOL :D

2nd Gens rule. All you 1st Gen guys can just sit and drool.:cool:

P.S. Joey, was that number the 1st or 3rd pull? If the 3rd, what was the 1st number.

it was the 3rd pull.. the first pull I made was not modifying the MAF table the first pull netted 242hp? or something close to that.. for the second pull, i fixed the short term fuel trims for better drivability and then leaned out the WOT trims by 11%... I showed Joey how i calculated it and what the datalog said for MAF counts.. sure enough, the 2nd pull netted about 4hp more BUT the a/f was a stead 12.7-13.0 straight accross the board.. exactly what i hoped... the last pull, i added some timing and it responded with 252.83rwhp.. I have done a few of these, so i have some solid base tunes..

thanks bob

In reality, all you get to see is our rear-ends, pretty they are.
Haha. The neon is intoxicating.

im just gonna put a gen 2 intake on my gen 1 and kick all your butts then be like the guy with the black mark viii and put a vortech and build the bottom end in it.

252.83 RWP 254 RWTQ


Cant say I know much about these things to be honest, but I bet I'll be learning alot shortly. I have videos, but the camera is in the car and im too lazy to go get it right now. A little later.

One interesting thing, is that it appears I have gained in gas mileage. I cant say for certain, but it looks like I picked up about 3-4MPG so far. That may not sound like much, but at 1 tank of gas a week, thats a savings of about 2-3 gallons of gas per tank, and 300-400 gallons per year. So at todays gas prices, it was well worth it to have the tune done.


Walt did better numbers on the hp and torque with less mods at Carlisle a few years back in oppressive heat which if I remember correctly was around 93 and the humidity you could just bite at 88% and the elevation at Carlisle too?

At the time of this dyno run Walt had only our maf kit, chip, Nology wires, Autolite 764 copper plugs gapped @.048, 2.5 inch true dual XX pipe exhaust, Icebox cold air kit, Walbro 255 high pressure high volume, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, ASP crank blancer/pulley, PI 3500 9.5 inch torque converter, Cobra IRS with 3.73's.

Walt chruned up 260 hp and 259.9 in the most god awful conditions you would ever want to dyno in with NO headers.

Our customer who donated the car for the Kooks headers project a few years ago made 29hp and almost 30 in torque with just headers.

http://www.lincolnmotorsport.com/walt260.jpg

http://www.lincolnmotorsport.com/walt2601.jpg

http://www.lincolnmotorsport.com/walt2602.jpg

if you've been around dyno's for any amount of time, you would know that all dyno are not created equal.. Ive seen variances from 1 dynojet to another as big as 5%.. Some are just loose and make big numbers.. I know that the particular dyno that we did Joey's car on is very tight and reads low. My own personal car made 820rwhp but ran 8.56 @ 158 3300lbs race weight a few years ago.. Track times and SOTP is all that matters..

if you've been around dyno's for any amount of time, you would know that all dyno are not created equal.. Ive seen variances from 1 dynojet to another as big as 5%.. Some are just loose and make big numbers.. I know that the particular dyno that we did Joey's car on is very tight and reads low. My own personal car made 820rwhp but ran 8.56 @ 158 3300lbs race weight a few years ago.. Track times and SOTP is all that matters..


That dyno that day at Carlisle was fresh, tight and right. My buddy ran his SC Cobra on that dyno the same day and was actually slightly less rwhp then the guy who built his car a month prior and ran it on a Mustang dyno.

The SOTP on that car is VERY high and runs 13.70's @ 102 mph wih 105k on her.

Are you going to b!tch slap Driller at Carlisle now? :eek: LOL :D

Bring it... don't sing it! :gr_devil:

This was BEFORE the headers on the '93...

http://photos.imageevent.com/driller/dynoday/websize/100_1598.JPG

That dyno that day at Carlisle was fresh, tight and right. My buddy ran his SC Cobra on that dyno the same day and was actually slightly less rwhp then the guy who built his car a month prior and ran it on a Mustang dyno.

The SOTP on that car is VERY high and runs 13.70's @ 102 mph wih 105k on her.

i dont know what your intentions are, but i can see that Im not welcome here any more...

Joey, if you have an probs, shoot me an email and Ill get your taken care of.

thanks again
bob

PS FYI I didnt build the car, I was just asked to tune it and I did that.. Also, if you know anything about dyno's, you would understand that rear gearing too, makes a difference in how the #'s read... The RWHP is what it is... the a/f is where it needs to be and the timing is where it needs to be.

i dont know what your intentions are, but i can see that Im not welcome here any more...



why do you say that?

no one is Un-welcoming you,

we all just discuss what we think/know,

you are welcome here,and i for one,feel you make a difference.

stick around..

Bring it... don't sing it! :gr_devil:

This was BEFORE the headers on the '93...




This is exactly whats irritating me. I feel like im about 30HP lower then I should be.

i dont know what your intentions are, but i can see that Im not welcome here any more...

Joey, if you have an probs, shoot me an email and Ill get your taken care of.

thanks again
bob

PS FYI I didnt build the car, I was just asked to tune it and I did that.. Also, if you know anything about dyno's, you would understand that rear gearing too, makes a difference in how the #'s read... The RWHP is what it is... the a/f is where it needs to be and the timing is where it needs to be.

I never said anything about you, your company or your tuning? I never once said anything about who built it either, where did that come from?

All I made point of is that the same cars had amazingly huge deviations in HP and that was it? Who said you weren't welcome and how did I make you feel "unwelcome" I never knocked nything nor anyone, re-read. Walt had 3.73's and Joey has 4.10's.

With approx. 250rwhp you're exactly where most 2nd gen cars are with headers, full exhaust, and 4.10s and sometimes stock cobra intakes.

Having a reliable tuner is what counts here. Sure you can lean on it all you want and make more, but the keys are reliability and driveability.

Props to Bob at Kurgan.

It might not have been a glory pull, but it's a good pull.

Walt's car is his only car and daily driver since 1997. He now has 120k with no issues whatsoever. Get's 29 mpg at 75mph and runs like a clock.

I never said anything about you, your company or your tuning? I never once said anything about who built it either, where did that come from?

All I made point of is that the same cars had amazingly huge deviations in HP and that was it? Who said you weren't welcome and how did I make you feel "unwelcome" I never knocked nything nor anyone, re-read. Walt had 3.73's and Joey has 4.10's.

I try to make some unbiased ideas on why... one being that the dyno we used reads low.. i know this because i tuned on 4 different dynos in the area.. your response was the dyno used at carlisle was tight.. how did you know that? Had you compared it to other dynos? I try bring some ideas to the table and you have an answer for me right away.. Kind of, your way or the highway was the way i read it..

Again, i have dynoed about 300 cars in the last 3 years... most of them are done at speed inc (the dyno we used)... that dyno typically reads lower then others. As a matter of fact, Speed Inc just had a dyno day for some Cobras and everyone complained that their numbers seems low compared to another shop.. It further solidified my theory..

I am more then willing to help out here but please dont come at me with a "i know everything" mentality.

Sorry if i misunderstood you, but everyone is a genius on the internet these days..

a few thoughts on why Joey may be down on power... #1 His cat back exhaust is NOT mandrel bent. #2 His mufflers are some off brand and may be restrictive. They almost sounds like glasspacks. #3 I pride myself on being conservative and tune on the side of safety.. Im sure there were a few more HP in the tune, but i would rather have Joeys car conservative and last for years..

..... Kind of, your way or the highway was the way i read it..
...
Sorry if i misunderstood you, but everyone is a genius on the internet these days..

That's just the way Geno comes across at times on the internet. He's really a nice guy. ;) (... and I've never met him.)

As for internet geniuses... I like this example...

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17219&stc=1&d=1147058430

Hee hee hee... :p

NICE!!!! hahaha

This is exactly whats irritating me. I feel like im about 30HP lower then I should be.

It's not anything to tuck your tail about. :)

I'd like to dyno mine again. Maybe at Carlisle this year? Any bets? :gr_devil:

This freak of a car went 13.6s at the track yesterday with temps in the upper 80's and track temps recorded in the 90s. I wasn't looking for anything better than a 13.8 given the weather.

I try to make some unbiased ideas on why... one being that the dyno we used reads low.. i know this because i tuned on 4 different dynos in the area.. your response was the dyno used at carlisle was tight.. how did you know that? Had you compared it to other dynos? I try bring some ideas to the table and you have an answer for me right away.. Kind of, your way or the highway was the way i read it..

I said what I said about the dyno at Carisle because that is what the operator told me as well as many others who had concerns about it's accuracy.

I also said the Carlisle dynojet was low too since my buddy dynoed his Cobra on that same dyno and it was down about 22-25 hp compared to his previous dyno just one Month prior therefore that is a fair comparison, so that solidified my statement as well.

When did I ever give an answer of any type as you state? Show me.


I am more then willing to help out here but please dont come at me with a "i know everything" mentality.

I will call you on this one. Show me where the "my way or the highway" part comes in please, quote it and post it. Again I relayed FACTS, numbers and results, with NO comments or slander of any type.

Ask Joey, when you first responded hostile like I even asked Joey to read my reply to you and see if he found anything wrong with what I posted and he said "No why" then I showed him this thread.



Sorry if i misunderstood you, but everyone is a genius on the internet these days..

And believe me you for sure misunderstood me. I have been in business doing this car, this engine and nearly nothing more for 8 years now and I help anyone and everyone I can when I can.


Again I stated facts plain and simple and never once said anything more or less. I listed the mods, the weather conditions and the results which I had nothing to do with any of them except for putting the car together. Now if you consider that to be a "know everything mentality" then I for sure am not the one with a problem.

a few thoughts on why Joey may be down on power... #1 His cat back exhaust is NOT mandrel bent.

LMAO thats hilarious. Walt has the EXACT same system on his car that ran the 260hp on the dyno. Also I will CHALLENGE you to show me 1 hp better from mandrel vs standard bends with anything not making SERIOUS power!! Show me this EXACT car with a mandrel bent system and I will bet anything that you will not see ANY gains on such small power.[/quote]


#2 His mufflers are some off brand and may be restrictive. They almost sounds like glasspacks.


Even funnier, the "off brand" is our brand which was made to our design specs exclusively by Peterson Exhaust Systems. Restrictive? LOL if I can see light I can't see a restriction! LMAO! The reason they sound that LOUD is because of the headers.


http://www.lincolnmotorsport.com/images/twin.jpg



#3 I pride myself on being conservative and tune on the side of safety.. Im sure there were a few more HP in the tune, but i would rather have Joeys car conservative and last for years..

Walts car, my car, every car we have done has lasted for years with thousands of SAFE happy miles, you stay conservative and and enjoy.

why are my ideas funny?? You having fun belittleing me yet? As I stated, im done here.. I cant win with you..

I guess he is down on power because i dont know wtf Im doing..

Are you happy now? Because i think thats what you are getting to...

good day sir.

I guess he is down on power because i dont know wtf Im doing..

Are you happy now? Because i think thats what you are getting to...

good day sir.


Actually Bob, Geno (onebadmk8) and I talked about this at length this afternoon. Your tune NEVER came up in our conversation as being the reason for the lack of HP. In fact, Onebadmk8 backed you up on the things you did, agreeing with what you set things at from what I told him. The only opinion he offered contrary to what you have done is that he said he may have gone a bit leaner. but that what you did was perfectly fine.

Guys, there seems to be some misunderstandings in this thread, and its going in the wrong direction unecessarily. Lets take a step back.

Joey, go to www.wunderground.com and look up the weather stats for the day and location of your dyno. Then find the elevation.

Weather plays a HUGE part in dyno results. When I got my numbers it was 70 degrees in the morning but a disparaging 78% humidity with a barometric pressure of 30.02 at about a 200 foot elevation. That gives a density altitude of about 1100 feet and a dyno correction factor of 0.992.

Dyno correction factor (http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm)

Some places automatically correct the numbers, most don't. Be sure to ask, you don't want to 'correct' them twice.

So my 252.5 RWHP / 262.8 RWTQ equals 250.48/260.7 corrected numbers using the 0.992 correction factor. ;)

Actually Bob, Geno (onebadmk8) and I talked about this at length this afternoon. Your tune NEVER came up in our conversation as being the reason for the lack of HP. In fact, Onebadmk8 backed you up on the things you did, agreeing with what you set things at from what I told him. The only opinion he offered contrary to what you have done is that he said he may have gone a bit leaner. but that what you did was perfectly fine.

Guys, there seems to be some misunderstandings in this thread, and its going in the wrong direction unecessarily. Lets take a step back.

there is no doubt that lean is mean... but, in my experience in tuning NA cars, 13.0 is about as lean as I would want to go... I am more then willing to share timing #s etc too.. I have nothing to hide. Thats why i invited you in back while i dynoed your car. I like to have the customer more involved since you are the one who is foot'n the bill for the car on the dyno.. Thats your heart and soul. The last thing i would want if i invested that much money is to have someone take my car where i couldnt see it and say "come back later"..

My only issue is that every time i try to make a suggestion, i get replied with "LOL, HAHAHAH, bla bla bla.." talk about belittleing someone! I think that he feels threatened? I dont know.. Im not here to sell anything. I was just here to thank you and support any questions. I am trying to answer them the best i can, but i am getting alot of $hit. So, my next step is just to STFU and move on i guess. I dont need the drama.

i was just informed that Joey's exhaust and mufflers were provided to him by ONEBADMK8... i didnt know this.. i was just throwing ideas out..

I still believe that this dyno just reads lower then others... I have FIRSTHAND experience with this. Regardless, #s dont matter.. dyno's are used to show what changes yield positive results and which yield negative results...

Joey, go to www.wunderground.com and look up the weather stats for the day and location of your dyno. Then find the elevation.

Weather plays a HUGE part in dyno results. When I got my numbers it was 70 degrees in the morning but a disparaging 78% humidity with a barometric pressure of 30.02 at about a 200 foot elevation. That gives a density altitude of about 1100 feet and a dyno correction factor of 0.992.

Dyno correction factor (http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm)

Some places automatically correct the numbers, most don't. Be sure to ask, you don't want to 'correct' them twice.

So my 252.5 RWHP / 262.8 RWTQ equals 250.48/260.7 corrected numbers using the 0.992 correction factor. ;)



ok... so my correction factor was 1.028

that makes the corrected HP 259.06 and RWT 261.11

I have nothing to hide. Thats why i invited you in back while i dynoed your car. I like to have the customer more involved since you are the one who is foot'n the bill for the car on the dyno.. Thats your heart and soul. The last thing i would want if i invested that much money is to have someone take my car where i couldnt see it and say "come back later"...


And that is one of the reasons I choose you to do my tune Bob...

Regardless, #s dont matter.. dyno's are used to show what changes yield positive results and which yield negative results...

Problem is you can't tell that to the guy with 600 HP who can't seem to put it to the ground. All the big HP guys I seem to know complain the track was bad, the weather was bad, this excuse and that excuse and all they want is to brag on their dyno numbers.

I'll take my weasly 250 RWHP Mark VIII anyday - no use to have it if you can't use it. ;)

ok... so my correction factor was 1.028

that makes the corrected HP 259.06 and RWT 261.11


Not so irritated now? :D

Not so irritated now? :D


Not as bad anyway lol

Drilled/slotted rotors DO NOT outperform blanks. Period.


I own/operate an SCCA Improved Touring E-class Mustang. This car will repeatedly stop itself from 165-170 mph every lap at Firebird main course (about once every one and a quarter minutes) The brake setup is as follows:

Cobra calipers (yes, the crappy PBR ones)
Very solid brake ducting
Very good (expensive) DOT 4 fluid
Hawk Blacks or SBC race pads


...drumroll...


and Brembo blanks.


The outgassing mentioned in this thread is not a problem with modern brake pads. Drilling/slotting rotors does the following:

1. Decreases the overall mass of the rotor, thereby reducing its ability to absorb/dissipate heat.
2. Increases pad wear by the holes/slots digging into the pad
3. TREMENDOUSLY increases the chance for the rotor to crack
4. Disrupts the natural strength of the casting because there are now additional stress risers.


If any of you spend any time at a road course, you'll notice that even on uber-racecars, blanks outnumber drilled/slotted by probably ten to one. The only people that have drilled/slotted rotors are (especially) the Porsche guys because those holes are actually cast into the rotor.

If anyone of you don't believe me, feel free to view this thread:

http://corner-carvers.com/altimathread.php.html

This is the 'infamous' thread saved for posterity by corner-carvers forums all about this subject. The folks at www.corner-carvers.com are, IMHO, one of the best no BS locations for hardcore tech on the internet.





With that said, I have drilled/slotted rotors on my silver mustang. Why? Because they look cool. :D

Paul.
yeah right, that's why they put them on motorcycles. cuz they don't work.

Problem is you can't tell that to the guy with 600 HP who can't seem to put it to the ground. All the big HP guys I seem to know complain the track was bad, the weather was bad, this excuse and that excuse and all they want is to brag on their dyno numbers.

I'll take my weasly 250 RWHP Mark VIII anyday - no use to have it if you can't use it. ;)

oh, i know what your talking about.. My own car makes 1100rwhp and runs 8.20 @ 169... ive been racing for years, so ive learned a few tricks on getting the HP to the ground :)

oh, i know what your talking about.. My own car makes 1100rwhp and runs 8.20 @ 169... ive been racing for years, so ive learned a few tricks on getting the HP to the ground :)


Many havent learned those tricks. Additionally, the Mark VIII has issues in this regard. Gotta remember, its not a Mustang. The suspension isnt something that you can just swap out or adjust. We are limited as to rim sizes, etc...

But with Drag Radials I am sure the wheels on mine will stick fine. My issues are in the lower rpm and lower end acceration.

All I know is the car made almost exactly what I thought it would. I should have just left the post up guessing the 3rd pull number.

Btw Bob, you are welcome here and certainly your comments are welcome. Anytime we get fresh dyno numbers is a good day for all of us.

All I know is I have a lot to learn. Trying every day. You guys keep it light and keep the good info coming.

I'll give you one hint... for at least 2 hp... naw, later.

Not as bad anyway lol

So that means we're on for a Dyno bet at Carlisle? :gr_devil:

You really need to lighten up a bit Bob. I mean re-read what I wrote again CLOSELY!

Talk about making a mountain of a grain of sand? Belittleing you?

C'mon man were both on the same side of the fence, either you have a problem with comprehension of a conversation or bad day I have no idea. Ask ANYONE on here that read my response if they felt the way you did about it.

How do you expect me to react about the products and pipes you mentioned to be a possibility for the car being down on power?

Just look how you reacted when you THOUGHT I was making fun of your tune?

Again all I did was post numbers, facts, weather conditions and results. It would be like me posting a quote from a book? Don't shoot the messenger Bud.

Again I had NOTHING to do with the outcome, the dyno run or the car other then assembling it and you WENT off on some bizzarre rant that makes NO sense at all, only you see it this way for some odd reason.

I guess he is down on power because i dont know wtf Im doing..

Are you happy now? Because i think thats what you are getting to...

good day sir.

You need to calm down a notch.

I was getting to NOTHING of the sort. Thats just your twisted interpretation of simple facts.

Joey, go to www.wunderground.com and look up the weather stats for the day and location of your dyno. Then find the elevation.

Weather plays a HUGE part in dyno results. When I got my numbers it was 70 degrees in the morning but a disparaging 78% humidity with a barometric pressure of 30.02 at about a 200 foot elevation. That gives a density altitude of about 1100 feet and a dyno correction factor of 0.992.

Dyno correction factor (http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm)

Some places automatically correct the numbers, most don't. Be sure to ask, you don't want to 'correct' them twice.

So my 252.5 RWHP / 262.8 RWTQ equals 250.48/260.7 corrected numbers using the 0.992 correction factor. ;)

So very true JP. Just like on the street or the track the weather conditions do play a HUGE role.

Thats why myself as well as everyone there was SHOCKED to see the results Walt put down in those $hitty conditions.

It was either me and Ray or me and Chris that were joking he wouldn't even break 250 hp in this crap weather, thats all I was pointing out that in BAD weather his car on a LOW dyno did the same power and torque with NO headers while at Kooks our customer made an EXTRA 29 hp with the addition of JUST headers and true duals.

Im just trying to figure out whats going on THATS ALL? GGGGggggggggggggggggeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzze eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

... while at Kooks our customer made an EXTRA 29 hp with the addition of JUST headers and true duals.


I'm thinking the headers gave me maybe 15-20 HP? I already had the true duals. Since Joey's mods have mirrored mine, it'd be a cool Gen1/Gen2 duel? :F

I'm thinking the headers gave me maybe 15-20 HP? I already had the true duals. Since Joey's mods have mirrored mine, it'd be a cool Gen1/Gen2 duel? :F

Exactly JP the 29hp makes sense with headers, 2.5 inch, some type of crossover and good mufflers.

I would love to know Walt's corrected numbers from that day. You can get Weather archives from Google as well as elevation information on Carlisle PA but I forget the exact date and year of that time at Carlisle. I think it was 2002? Ray would know.

Joey how much was the timing advanced... these cars like 4-6 degrees advance throughout the rpm range. I don't think the gen 2 intake manifold is holding you back, look at the guy who runs 11's with stock gen 2 intake manifold with the vortech and built shortblock. Dyno numbers don't mean much to me, take it to the track and see what MPH you are pulling. MPH is what shows how much power your car puts down... I'll take a MPH dyno over a real dyno any day.

I would love to know Walt's corrected numbers from that day. You can get Weather archives from Google as well as elevation information on Carlisle PA but I forget the exact date and year of that time at Carlisle.

Got an archive pic of the dyno sheet?

Joey how much was the timing advanced... these cars like 4-6 degrees advance throughout the rpm range. I don't think the gen 2 intake manifold is holding you back, look at the guy who runs 11's with stock gen 2 intake manifold with the vortech and built shortblock. Dyno numbers don't mean much to me, take it to the track and see what MPH you are pulling. MPH is what shows how much power your car puts down... I'll take a MPH dyno over a real dyno any day.

stock timing table for the BLX3 is 19 total plus the addition of adders such as IMRC, ECT, ACT, and other misc things... typical timing would be about 21-23 total with adders.... Joey's car made the best power with 26 deg total and peak power and 24 at peak torque (cylinder pressure)... no sign of detonation.. hope that helps.

Got an archive pic of the dyno sheet?


OMG the award for the person who didnt think before he typed goes to................ ME!!!

http://www.lincolnmotorsport.com/walt260.jpg

OMG the award for the person who didnt think before he typed goes to................ ME!!!

http://www.lincolnmotorsport.com/walt260.jpg

That narrows the day down, but I don't think the clock is right! :p

Let's presume the AM is actually PM...

Temp 78.1
Baro 29.71
Humidity 27%
Altitude 500 feet

Dyno Correction Factor 1.014

263.64RWHP/263.54RWTQ

yeah right, that's why they put them on motorcycles. cuz they don't work.

Congratulations on such a well-thought-out and comprehensive response. Glad to see you at least read the article. (which is where the comment on motorcycles was made)


Anyway, back to arguing about dyno numbers and correction factors...

Paul.

Joey how much was the timing advanced... these cars like 4-6 degrees advance throughout the rpm range. I don't think the gen 2 intake manifold is holding you back, look at the guy who runs 11's with stock gen 2 intake manifold with the vortech and built shortblock. Dyno numbers don't mean much to me, take it to the track and see what MPH you are pulling. MPH is what shows how much power your car puts down... I'll take a MPH dyno over a real dyno any day.

Intake manifold design matters significantly more in a naturally aspirated combination vs a forced induction one. Inefficiencies are largely overcome by boost pressure.

Paul.

That narrows the day down, but I don't think the clock is right! :p

Let's presume the AM is actually PM...

Temp 78.1
Baro 29.71
Humidity 27%
Altitude 500 feet

Dyno Correction Factor 1.014

263.64RWHP/263.54RWTQ

Cool thanks JP.

congrats on the dyno joey, the video is cool too. :cool:

Well, this has been an interesting thread. Can't wait to get all of my mods in so I can get a good tune.

congrats on the dyno joey, the video is cool too. :cool:


Why thank you.. :)

Everybody needs to check with their dyno shop and specifically ask whether they're getting corrected or non-corrected numbers. All the dyno shops in NM AFAIK give you corrected numbers automatically, you usually have to ask to get a printout of both. Maybe it's different where you all live because NM is so high above sea level.

... Maybe it's different where you all live because NM is so high above sea level.

Probably, since a typical correction factor in NM could be in the range of 1.25!!!

I think Joey also dyno'd with those heavy rims on his car. More rotating mass to spin.

And I noticed on Walt's runs that day that his 1st run only put down 245.8/255.1

Joey, what was your fuel pressure at? You have a regulator on it, right. You could have turned it up a few pounds and probably pick up a few horses on the upper end for braggin rights.:)

I assume the 02's are fresh. How many miles on the plugs? What type?

JP, I think you are really going to like your ported Gen 1 intake. I've been playing around with mine also. IMRC delete and a second set of injectors will look killer.:shifty:

my exhaust smells funny...........oh wait, that was me! :eek: :facesjump :drunk:

I think Joey also dyno'd with those heavy rims on his car. More rotating mass to spin.

And I noticed on Walt's runs that day that his 1st run only put down 245.8/255.1

Joey, what was your fuel pressure at? You have a regulator on it, right. You could have turned it up a few pounds and probably pick up a few horses on the upper end for braggin rights.:)

i adjusted his A/F through the MAF transfer function... there was no reason to play with the regulator. as a matter of fact, the car was overly rich when we made our first pull.. the a/f was as low as 11.2 to 1..

It was leaned out to a region that most NA cars like it..

I would like to actually SEE walts dyno sheet.. something where you could actually SEE the lines, not just the final numbers..

PS.. i actually thought about the rim deal too.. but i didnt want to get yelled at in case someone sold him the rims and they were custom special dyno rims :)

Again, i have dynoed about 300 cars in the last 3 years... most of them are done at speed inc (the dyno we used)... that dyno typically reads lower then others. As a matter of fact, Speed Inc just had a dyno day for some Cobras and everyone complained that their numbers seems low compared to another shop.. It further solidified my theory...


Though I haven't had Bob Kurgan himself tune any of my cars yet (hey Bob I am the Kenne Bell Explorer guy), though I might be taking my LS to him for some "special" tuning here soon. Larry @ Speed Inc. would not let anyone tune there on his dyno if they didn't know their stuff inside and out plus backwards. From all the people I have talked to around here Bob is a very well respected tuner.

BTW, I was the guy that set up that Cobra dynoday that went down on the 6th of May and Bob is 100% correct. Larry's dyno does read lower than most.

Between variables in the dynos amongst other things the numbers should only be taken to get an idea. The best way to see what kind of power your making is to do a baseline run on that dyno and then go back to that same dyno to do your modded run with dynotune. Dyno numbers don't count for squat anyways, the ET is where it counts! :D

Dyno numbers don't count for squat anyways, the ET is where it counts! :D


:headbang:

Though I haven't had Bob Kurgan himself tune any of my cars yet (hey Bob I am the Kenne Bell Explorer guy), though I might be taking my LS to him for some "special" tuning here soon. Larry @ Speed Inc. would not let anyone tune there on his dyno if they didn't know their stuff inside and out plus backwards. From all the people I have talked to around here Bob is a very well respected tuner.

BTW, I was the guy that set up that Cobra dynoday that went down on the 6th of May and Bob is 100% correct. Larry's dyno does read lower than most.

Between variables in the dynos amongst other things the numbers should only be taken to get an idea. The best way to see what kind of power your making is to do a baseline run on that dyno and then go back to that same dyno to do your modded run with dynotune. Dyno numbers don't count for squat anyways, the ET is where it counts! :D

i Do remember you and your explorer. You gave me the opportunity to tune your truck, but our schedules never worked out together and I didnt feel 100% comfortable tuning your truck. I remember hearing about the issues you had on the dyno at the other shop. Not at all their fault, but i know they worked their butts off.. Sounds like they did a good job..

If we can hook up sometime for the LS, let me know..

thanks

I think Joey also dyno'd with those heavy rims on his car. More rotating mass to spin.

And I noticed on Walt's runs that day that his 1st run only put down 245.8/255.1

Joey, what was your fuel pressure at? You have a regulator on it, right. You could have turned it up a few pounds and probably pick up a few horses on the upper end for braggin rights.:)

I assume the 02's are fresh. How many miles on the plugs? What type?

JP, I think you are really going to like your ported Gen 1 intake. I've been playing around with mine also. IMRC delete and a second set of injectors will look killer.:shifty:


Yep, O2s are new, plugs are new also - (maybe 1000 miles on them) Also, yes, I had the heavy Cobra R Rims since thats what I drive on normally.

i Do remember you and your explorer. You gave me the opportunity to tune your truck, but our schedules never worked out together and I didnt feel 100% comfortable tuning your truck. I remember hearing about the issues you had on the dyno at the other shop. Not at all their fault, but i know they worked their butts off.. Sounds like they did a good job..

If we can hook up sometime for the LS, let me know..

thanks

They ran into a slight misrouted vac line that my retarded self had abdsentmindedly attached wrong in my sleepless stupor. :D

Is there a tuner on the west coast of Florida?

Is there a tuner on the west coast of Florida?




Heck, SCT theirself is BASED down in Longwood there! I am sure there has to be one or two SCT tuners in your area there. Shoot, didn't Chris Johnson from JMS relocate there after the hurricane? I know someone did, but I forget exactly who it was?

there are MANY talented SCT tuners on the west coast of florida....

This is the 3rd pull with STD Correction

This is the first pull and the third pull together, SAE correction.

(first pull is with a basic chip package, 3d pull is with custom tune)

This is the first pull and the third pull together, SAE correction.

(first pull is with a basic chip package, 3d pull is with custom tune)



That is crazy. I have seen many dynosheets but I dont think I ever seen a darn loop-deloop in the line before. hehe. Is that the tranny shifting or something? That would cause a power spike, followed by drop in rpm and then minor loss of power once the shift has completed. Just curious.

That is crazy. I have seen many dynosheets but I dont think I ever seen a darn loop-deloop in the line before. hehe. Is that the tranny shifting or something? That would cause a power spike, followed by drop in rpm and then minor loss of power once the shift has completed. Just curious.


Torque Converter --

That is crazy. I have seen many dynosheets but I dont think I ever seen a darn loop-deloop in the line before. hehe. Is that the tranny shifting or something? That would cause a power spike, followed by drop in rpm and then minor loss of power once the shift has completed. Just curious.

you see that because I hit the green sampling button BEFORE i floor it as to not miss anything with WOT... alot of dyno operators will hit the green sampling button and go WOT simultaneously... that is the converter unlocking for a millisecond and then relocking back up..

I would like to actually SEE walts dyno sheet.. something where you could actually SEE the lines, not just the final numbers..

I could see it just fine and clear as day. Heres an OVER contrasted version.

http://www.lincolnmotorsport.com/images/walt260fortheblind.jpg

I could see it just fine and clear as day. Heres an OVER contrasted version.




I have a hard time seeing it too Geno.... This one is better

Drilled/slotted rotors DO NOT outperform blanks. Period.


I own/operate an SCCA Improved Touring E-class Mustang. This car will repeatedly stop itself from 165-170 mph every lap at Firebird main course (about once every one and a quarter minutes) The brake setup is as follows:

Cobra calipers (yes, the crappy PBR ones)
Very solid brake ducting
Very good (expensive) DOT 4 fluid
Hawk Blacks or SBC race pads


...drumroll...


and Brembo blanks.


The outgassing mentioned in this thread is not a problem with modern brake pads. Drilling/slotting rotors does the following:

1. Decreases the overall mass of the rotor, thereby reducing its ability to absorb/dissipate heat.
2. Increases pad wear by the holes/slots digging into the pad
3. TREMENDOUSLY increases the chance for the rotor to crack
4. Disrupts the natural strength of the casting because there are now additional stress risers.


If any of you spend any time at a road course, you'll notice that even on uber-racecars, blanks outnumber drilled/slotted by probably ten to one. The only people that have drilled/slotted rotors are (especially) the Porsche guys because those holes are actually cast into the rotor.

If anyone of you don't believe me, feel free to view this thread:

http://corner-carvers.com/altimathread.php.html

This is the 'infamous' thread saved for posterity by corner-carvers forums all about this subject. The folks at www.corner-carvers.com are, IMHO, one of the best no BS locations for hardcore tech on the internet.





With that said, I have drilled/slotted rotors on my silver mustang. Why? Because they look cool. :D

Paul.

I've had this discussion many times with the f150 online guys. There have been good valid points on both sides. (AND OF COURSE THERE IS THE COOL FACTOR) The crossdrilled/slotted do allow for a little more ventilation vs the bare rotor. You can usually see anywhere from 5-7% lower temps on cars with these that aren't being battered to hell and back. However, paul is right about the reduced surface area. That takes away alittle from your total capacity. Whats worth more, a small percentage of your max stopping power, or 5-7% operating temp. Basically, its a wash. The reason I use them is becuase if its good enough for a $150000 mercedes, and a $450000 porsche, then its good enough for me

Congratulations on such a well-thought-out and comprehensive response. Glad to see you at least read the article. (which is where the comment on motorcycles was made)


Anyway, back to arguing about dyno numbers and correction factors...

Paul.
N/P... I try to do my best...:D

that is the converter unlocking for a millisecond and then relocking back up..


That was going to be my second guess. :cool:

I used to get that percieved loop on my Nav. After a custom tune, it no longer appears

I've had this discussion many times with the f150 online guys. There have been good valid points on both sides. (AND OF COURSE THERE IS THE COOL FACTOR) The crossdrilled/slotted do allow for a little more ventilation vs the bare rotor. You can usually see anywhere from 5-7% lower temps on cars with these that aren't being battered to hell and back. However, paul is right about the reduced surface area. That takes away alittle from your total capacity. Whats worth more, a small percentage of your max stopping power, or 5-7% operating temp. Basically, its a wash. The reason I use them is becuase if its good enough for a $150000 mercedes, and a $450000 porsche, then its good enough for me

It is my understanding that the two vehicles cast the holes into the rotors, which are then chamfered - not simply drilled. Thusly, the structural integrity of the casting remains intact. Those are not your ordinary bought-them-off-ebay-for-$80 rotors. :)

Virtually all (meaning 98%) of the racecars I see at the track run blanks.

But on the street - bling is king. :cool:

Paul.

Bling is king. And when you have the audacity to do this:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/stang99x/nav1.jpg

Then you have to have all the bling you can get:D

Bling is king. And when you have the audacity to do this:

Then you have to have all the bling you can get:D


Ummm - Hows is this for bling....

It figures. :D looks cool.

It figures. :D looks cool.



I couldnt help it!

Ummm - Hows is this for bling....
:cool: :cool: Godfather :Beer

Bling is king. And when you have the audacity to do this:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/stang99x/nav1.jpg

Then you have to have all the bling you can get:D



I sure hope that Navi can back its name up. :D

What do you think?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/stang99x/Nav.jpg

What do you think?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/stang99x/Nav.jpg


Is that the BD-11 head unit or the XB-1A head unit from Powerdyne?


Darn, if you were closer I would race ya with KBX. :cool:

get close to 300 rear wheel hp out of this.I'm happy you are happy about 250+.Sorry I don't seem to be enthused.I like the way these engines spin up but I have to rethink the internals.I'v been thinking that I maybe need to look at liter higher tinsel strength compnets and maybe diffrent cam profiles.I'v been thinking maybe higher lift.slow(higher) ramp quick drop would give a nice chopy sound and would be a screemer with light pistons and rods.I think these engines may need a forged crank.I'm new to these 32v.These engines have the potential to be reliable screemers.I don't understand why Lincoln/Ford dosen't put them in almost everything.It seems that Detroit(anybody)does this to anything that they produce.Let the foreners mass produce good stuff. Dosen't make sence.O'well.:confused:

Is that the BD-11 head unit or the XB-1A head unit from Powerdyne?


Darn, if you were closer I would race ya with KBX. :cool:

Its the BD11a, but I am pondering the XB. maybe when the bearings fail I'll have it upgraded.

Its the BD11a, but I am pondering the XB. maybe when the bearings fail I'll have it upgraded.


PM sent...:D