The White House says that the documents that show that G.W. Bush shirked his responsibility are a fraud because of a superscript "th" used in the document.

Their contention that this could only be a computer generated document is hogwash. I used a Selectric II typwriter in the '80s that had a ball that included superscript.

Check out this web site:

IBM Selectric (http://www.fact-index.com/i/ib/ibm_selectric_typewriter.html)

"* The Selectric II had a lever (above the right platen knob) that would allow the platen to be turned freely but return to the same vertical line (for inserting such symbols as subscripts and superscripts), whereas the Selectric I did not. "

Barry

Mark II convertible (http://members.cardomain.com/barry2952)

Man, Oh, Man, Oh Man. When will the madness stop.

CBS News is a fraud, Kerry is a fraud. I think that the 40% of the Country that supports Kerry are in denial and proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that people on the left will vote for anybody with a (D) next to their name, and will ignore everything else. Tough language for sure, but I am tired of all the press coverage on Bush's service. He has been the President for 4 years now. We can all judge his fitness to serve based on this record. Kerry, on the otherhand, has not served yet and should be scrutinized way more intensely.

More than half a dozen document experts contacted by ABC News said they had doubts about the memos' authenticity.

"These documents do not appear to have been the result of technology that was available in 1972 and 1973," said Bill Flynn, one of country's top authorities on document authentication. "The cumulative evidence that's available … indicates that these documents were produced on a computer, not a typewriter:"

Among the points Flynn and other experts noted:

http://a.abcnews.com/images/aquadot.gifThe memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/aquadot.gifThe memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/aquadot.gifThe memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/aquadot.gifThe font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas — the bible of fonts — does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/aquadot.gifThe vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Burn, Kerry, Burn. Everybody knows the Democrats were behind this deception to destroy the good name of one of our Country's greatest Presidents.

Here, read this beauty. Pay attention to the last line.

Washington Prowler

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=7096

By The Prowler

Published 9/10/2004 12:09:06 AM

More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer for the Democratic National Committee received documents purportedly written by President George W. Bush's Texas Air National Guard squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian.

The oppo researcher claimed the source was "a retired military officer." According to a DNC staffer, the documents were seen by both senior staff members at the DNC, as well as the Kerry campaign.

"More than a couple people heard about the papers," says the DNC staffer. "I've heard that they ended up with the Kerry campaign, for them to decide to how to proceed, and presumably they were handed over to 60 Minutes, which used them the other night. But I know this much. When there was discussion here, there were doubts raised about their authenticity."

The concerns arose from the sourcing. "It wasn't clear that our source for the documents would have had access to them. Our person couldn't confirm from what file, from what original source they came from."

The documents that CBS News used were not documents from any of Bush's personnel files from his time in the National Guard. Rather, CBS News stated that they were documents uncovered in the personnel files of Killian. That would explain why the White House or the Pentagon had never before released or even seen them.

According to a Kerry campaign source, there was little gossip about the supposedly hot documents inside the office of the campaign on McPherson Square. "Those documents were not something anyone was talking about or trying to generate buzz on," says the staffer. "It wasn't like there were small groups of people talking about this as a bombshell. I think people here weren't sure what to make of it, because provenance of these documents was uncertain."

A CBS producer, who initially tipped off The Prowler about the 60 Minutes story, says that despite seeking professional assurances that the documents were legitimate, there was uncertainty even among the group of producers and researchers working on the story.

"The problem was we had one set of documents from Bush's file that had Killian calling Bush 'an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot.' And someone who Killian said 'performed in an outstanding manner.' Then you have these new documents and the tone and content are so different."

The CBS producer said that some alarms bells went off last week when the signatures and initials of Killian on the documents in hand did not match up with other documents available on the public record, but producers chose to move ahead with the story. "This was too hot not to push. If there were doubts, those people didn't show it," says the producer, who works on a rival CBS News program.

Now, the producer says, there is growing concern inside the building on 57th Street that they may have been suckered by the Kerry campaign. "There is a school of thought here that the Kerry people dumped this in our laps, figuring we'd do the heavy lifting on the story. That maybe they had doubts about these documents but hoped we'd get more information," says the producer. "If that's the case, then we're bigger fools than we already appear to be judging by all the chatter about how these documents could be forgeries."

ABC News' political unit held a conference call at 7:00 p.m. Thursday evening to discuss the memo and its potential ramifications should the documents turn out to be a forgery. That meeting took place around the time that the deceased Killian's son made public statements questioning the documents' authenticity.

According to one ABC News employee, some reporters believe that the Kerry campaign as well as the DNC were parties in duping CBS, but a smaller segment believe that both the DNC and the Kerry campaign were duped by Karl Rove, [emphasis added] who would have engineered the flap to embarrass the opposition.

That article is just wrong. Superscript was available on typewriters of that era. I'm not saying one way or another whether the documents are real or not. I would suggest a closer examination of the other memos written by his superior to determine if Superscript was used. I believe you are blindly coming to the President's defense on this issue. I believe that the President's service record is a legitimate election issue.

That article is just wrong. Superscript was available on typewriters of that era. I'm not saying one way or another whether the documents are real or not. I would suggest a closer examination of the other memos written by his superior to determine if Superscript was used. I believe you are blindly coming to the President's defense on this issue. I believe that the President's service record is a legitimate election issue.
I respectfully disagree with you Barry. Bush was already rung through the ringer in the 2000 election. This is all rehashing.

Kerry needs to fully disclose who he is. Bush signed the 180 form, why won't Mr. Kerry? There is more to this guy than he is revealing and it scares me.

Besides the superscript issue, I also pointed out the following:

~ proportional vs fixed type-face
~ curly vs straight apostrophes
~ times-roman not available on typewriters
~ and 13 pt spacing.

I have been told you can in fact duplicate these documents on your own computer right now.

That article is just wrong. Superscript was available on typewriters of that era. I'm not saying one way or another whether the documents are real or not. I would suggest a closer examination of the other memos written by his superior to determine if Superscript was used. I believe you are blindly coming to the President's defense on this issue. I believe that the President's service record is a legitimate election issue.

I don't know man... I heard on the radio this morning that "forensic evidence is suggesting that the documents are false". If it does turn out to be the case... then I really think this is going to hurt Kerry even more than he already is.

I just wonder why the mainstream media hasn't done a piece like this on Kerry's millitary record?!... kind of fishy

[ Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software. Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, pointed to a superscript — a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" — as evidence indicating forgery.

Microsoft Word automatically inserts superscripts in the same style as the two on the memos obtained by 60 Minutes, she said.

"I'm virtually certain these were computer generated," Lines said to the Associated Press after reviewing copies of the documents at her office in Paradise Valley, Ariz. She produced a nearly identical document using her computer's Microsoft Word software. ]

Man, Oh, Man, Oh Man. When will the madness stop.

CBS News is a fraud, Kerry is a fraud. I think that the 40% of the Country that supports Kerry are in denial and proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that people on the left will vote for anybody with a (D) next to their name, and will ignore everything else. Tough language for sure, but I am tired of all the press coverage on Bush's service. He has been the President for 4 years now. We can all judge his fitness to serve based on this record. Kerry, on the otherhand, has not served yet and should be scrutinized way more intensely.

More than half a dozen document experts contacted by ABC News said they had doubts about the memos' authenticity.

"These documents do not appear to have been the result of technology that was available in 1972 and 1973," said Bill Flynn, one of country's top authorities on document authentication. "The cumulative evidence that's available … indicates that these documents were produced on a computer, not a typewriter:"

Among the points Flynn and other experts noted:

http://a.abcnews.com/images/aquadot.gifThe memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/aquadot.gifThe memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/aquadot.gifThe memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/aquadot.gifThe font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas — the bible of fonts — does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/aquadot.gifThe vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Burn, Kerry, Burn. Everybody knows the Democrats were behind this deception to destroy the good name of one of our Country's greatest Presidents.

Yeah he ranks right up there with Richard Nixon!!! I guess you have a sense of humor to go with all that conservative crap! :facesjump

I believe you are blindly coming to the President's defense on this issue.

My definition of a "blind" defense is saying something like "I don't believe it!" without citing or posting any supporting evidence. I'm not saying that there aren't blind supporters of Bush or Kerry out there.

My definition of a "blind" defense is saying something like "I don't believe it!" without citing or posting any supporting evidence. I'm not saying that there aren't blind supporters of Bush or Kerry out there.
I know you aren't speaking to me anymore, but this is a situation where the blind is trying to lead the blind. :headbang:

I don't have a problem. I back up everything I say with facts. I see very clearly. No blind spots on this guy.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon12.gif

Too bad I am going to have to waste another night watching all this craziness. It is going to be fun watching the Kerry supporters and Dems squirm.

Boys............ Play nice........

I don't have a problem. I back up everything I say with facts. I see very clearly. No blind spots on this guy.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon12.gif

Too bad I am going to have to waste another night watching all this craziness. It is going to be fun watching the Kerry supporters and Dems squirm.
I gotta hand it to you Monster, you do come with facts? :tmi:

Boys............ Play nice........
It's those mean old nasty republicans Joey!!! :headbang:

Joey, things are cool. I'm having a blast. How 'bout you guys?

Nothing like a little :Fa little argue2 and a little :bash: to make a guys day. :rolleyes:

Joey, things are cool. I'm having a blast. How 'bout you guys?

Nothing like a little :Fa little argue2 and a little :bash: to make a guys day. :rolleyes:


Agreed - just reminding people - we are all friends here - even if I have to come to your houses with the LVC Mafia. :)

Agreed - just reminding people - we are all friends here - even if I have to come to your houses with the LVC Mafia. :)
In the words of a famous American citizen, "Can't we all just get along?" :Beer

Agreed - just reminding people - we are all friends here - even if I have to come to your houses with the LVC Mafia. :)

If you come by my house, bring one un-named Lincoln owner from California with you. I'd love to teach him the consequences of unjustly calling someone a liar.

If you come by my house, bring one un-named Lincoln owner from California with you. I'd love to teach him the consequences of unjustly calling someone a liar.
Gee!!! Did I unjustly call you a liar? I am truly sorry if I did. :gr_hail:

Gee!!! Did I unjustly call you a liar? I am truly sorry if I did. :gr_hail:

Accepted.

Accepted.
Politics and religion are very sensitive topics to discuss. :eek2:

Sensitive, yes. Necessary, yes. We need to be able to see and hear ALL sides of an issue to make an informed decision. I argue my points as passionately as I can without offending (hopefully) so that others may somehow benefit and the dialogue will be opened to more people, (which is a very good thing). There is nothing I despise more than an un-informed, under-informed voter. Peace.

Sensitive, yes. Necessary, yes. We need to be able to see and hear ALL sides of an issue to make an informed decision. I argue my points as passionately as I can without offending (hopefully) so that others may somehow benefit and the dialogue will be opened to more people, (which is a very good thing). There is nothing I despise more than an un-informed, under-informed voter. Peace.
I also argue my points as passionately as I can without offending. I also despise an un-informed, under-informed voter. I also recognize :bsflag: when I hear it. Peace :Beer

And you sure like raising the 'ol flagpole. LOL.

And you sure like raising the 'ol flagpole. LOL.
You're alright MonsterMark! :yourock: :Beer

Alright Joey!!!!!!! LvC mafia :cool:

If we dont keep this civilized,
Our people will have a talk with your people . . . . . :shifty:

The LvC mafia is at your service . . . . . :bash:

??? Have we put to bed the issue that the CBS documents that Dan Rather used to beschmirch President Bush were indeed fakes.

CBS has now been exposed as a tool of the left wing of the Democratic Party. Therefore, I believe the American people should and will put the blame squarely on the shoulders of John Kerry.

It is great to see Dan Rather go down in flames like this at the end of his career. I never liked the guy. Good riddance. He didn't give the Swift Boat Vets the time of day and then jumped all over this and ignored everybody that told him this was fishy. What goes around comes around. Bye, bye Danny boy. I won't have to look at your sour puss again.

In the words of Joey... you've been *owned* .

If you would like to see some proof, here you go....
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12526_Bush_Guard_Documents-_Forged

[ 9/9/2004: Bush Guard Documents: Forged
I opened Microsoft Word, set the font to Microsoft’s Times New Roman, tabbed over to the default tab stop to enter the date “18 August 1973,” then typed the rest of the document purportedly from the personal records of the late Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian.

And my Microsoft Word version, typed in 2004, is an exact match for the documents trumpeted by CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main641984.shtml) as “authentic.”

A screenshot of the “original” document as found at CBS:

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/aug-18-1973-memo.gif

__________

A screenshot of my Microsoft Word document:

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/aug181973memo-word.gif

__________

The spacing is not just similar—it is identical in every respect. Notice that the date lines up perfectly, all the line breaks are in the same places, all letters line up with the same letters above and below, and the kerning is exactly the same. And I did not change a single thing from Word’s defaults; margins, type size, tab stops, etc. are all using the default settings. The one difference (the “th” in “187th” is slightly lower) is probably due to a slight difference between the Mac and PC versions of the Times New Roman font, or it could be an artifact of whatever process was used to artificially “age” the document. (Update: I printed the document and the “th” matches perfectly in the printed version. It’s a difference between screen and printer fonts.)

There is absolutely no way that this document was typed on any machine that was available in 1973. ]

Brian,

Some of your facts are just false.

--Superscript definitely WAS available in that time era. If you do some homework, you'll see the SAME superscript on the National Guard documents the WHITE HOUSE RELEASED THEMSELVES!!! So did the White House use Word in the documents they released too?? Did the White House also "doctor" their documents too, since they have the superscript on them? What's good for the goose....

--The type-style is said to be New Times Roman. That typestyle has been available since 1931. This is according to the company that "owns" the rights to the typestyle.

--Robert Strong, and administrative officer with the ANG who knew the Colonel who wrote them and is familiar with the protocol of writing documents asserts they "are compatible with the way business was done at the time, they are compatible with the man I remember Jerry Killian being. I don't see anything in the documents that's discordant with what were the times, what were the situations and what were the people involved"

--And most important, thus far, the White House has NOT discredited the documents are being false. Can you show me the official rebutal from the White House, please?

There are more facts..but this will do for now..

Brian's turn...

Ron, I hate to take my turn because I feel sorry for you having posted that. Look at my post above,http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon14.gif, ya, up der eh.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon12.gif

The left will pull out all the stops on this one and trot out all the experts and blah, blah, blah. Come up with explainations for these all I'll believe you.

The page centering feature
the proportional vs fixed type-face
the curly vs straight apostrophes
the 13 pt spacing

Better yet, find the typewriter from that era and duplicate these letters and then I'll believe you. Hopefully, people are already doing this on each and every model of typewriter so we can definitely say, BUNK. GAME ON!

It is so silly for people on the left to be defending this farce when the average Joe can sit at his computer and duplicate the exact same thing. Anybody with Microsoft can do it right now. And I am sure, 10's of thousands have.

This is by far and away the most laughable thing I have ever seen in all my years.

Even Terry McAweFul of the DNC has said he suspects it to have been created by Karl Rove. By Karl Rove. That guy must be the most brilliant man on the planet. He gets credit for everything.

The DNC has therefore admitting to it being a fake.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe 80% of the Democratic' arguments are intentional manipulations of the truth in order to stay in power. I really do. They are on the wrong side of so many arguments, so many times, it must be intentional. And they are so willing to stick to a story line and parrot it in the face of all evidence to the contrary as to be again be laughable.

When the truth comes out (OK, I'm dreaming) that this was created by a Democratic operative of the DNC, handed over to the Kerry campaign, and then forwarded to their media center, the Communist Broadcast System, better known as CBS, Kerry will shrink more than a pecker in 30 degree water.

Its all over. Kerry's swift boat has taken mine hits on port and starboard and is taking on water fast.

P.S. Ron, I think you wrote that to get my goat.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon10.gif But i love when you post because then I get to see your wife's rack.:eek2:

--And most important, thus far, the White House has NOT discredited the documents are being false. Can you show me the official rebutal from the White House, please?Almost forgot. Why would the White House say anything. They are too busy laughing their asses off to bother. This is another 3 point bump for them. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. Why engage? Let the Dems and the MSM wiggle and squirm. Can't wait for the Sunday shows and then Dan RatherNot at 6:30 EST on Monday.

This is getting way better than Clinton. Speaking of Clinton, Vince Foster's suicide note was proven to be a forgery. No surprise there bubba.


Ooops, gotta run, but this was the best explaination I have ever seen as posted by CBS. That they used handwriting analysts to review the documents. Handwriting analysts for typewritten documents. COME ON. THIS IS HYSTERICAL. YOU HAVE TO ADMIT!

Almost forgot. Why would the White House say anything. They are too busy laughing their asses off to bother. This is another 3 point bump for them. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. Why engage? Let the Dems and the MSM wiggle and squirm. Can't wait for the Sunday shows and then Dan RatherNot at 6:30 EST on Monday.

This is getting way better than Clinton. Speaking of Clinton, Vince Foster's suicide note was proven to be a forgery. No surprise there bubba.


Ooops, gotta run, but this was the best explaination I have ever seen as posted by CBS. That they used handwriting analysts to review the documents. Handwriting analysts for typewritten documents. COME ON. THIS IS HYSTERICAL. YOU HAVE TO ADMIT!
He who laughs last...laughs best. :bow:

We'll, I've been out of town a couple days, but heard all about this fiasco. I JUST completed a simple test. I TYPED the posted memo with the SAME EXACT formating results in Micosoft Word.

Now, I'm just a dumb a$$ driller, no forensic document analyst, but I do not believe in coincidence. argue2

And I certainly don't believe they(CBS) were duped either. But I could be wrong on that one. :rolleyes:

Brian,

Well I'm not overly impressed that you could duplicate ANY document on a PC. The fact that you can use a modern PC to replicate a document supposedly made 30 years ago makes me yawn. I mean, I could Photoshop you ramming Bush doggy style, but that wouldn't neccessarily make it real, would it? I guess we'll have to see where all this BS ends up.

On a different note, are you Americans getting tired that neither candidate has REALLY said what they are going to do to make America a better place?? All they have been doing is throwing darts at each other. Bush gave his speech that Republicans have been giving for decades (lower taxes, balanced budget, line item veto powers, etc..). I don't think America has become a "better" place since Bush stepped in, and I don't see what he's going to do to improve it. I also haven't heard anything interesting from Kerry with regards to America's future. Are Americans as a whole getting tired of the lack of REAL campaigning on either side?

Brian, Well I'm not overly impressed that you could duplicate ANY document on a PC. The fact that you can use a modern PC to replicate a document supposedly made 30 years ago makes me yawn.Twisted, isn't it. But you ignore the obvious.

This Killian guy knew all about the future of the typewriter. He therefore knew how to make a '60's era typewriter before at the level of a '90's computer system. Pretty impressive feat.

Put me out of my misery. Admit somebody got caught with their hand in the cookie jar and the Dems, Kerry, Edwards, McCauliffe and CBS look like a bunch of idiots.

Simple.

And on your second question, NO, I am not tired about not talking about the issues because Kerry is still running for President. Until that time that he either withdraws from the race or gets beat on November 2nd, there is no need to talk about the issues. The only focus is the re-election of George Bush. Anything less puts my family and friends in harms way and that is just not going to happen on my watch.

It just keeps getting better and better.

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of the future president's service was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

As CBS continues to tighten its own noose.
A CBS staffer stood by the story, suggesting Staudt could have continued to exert influence over Guard officials. But a former high-ranking Guard official disputed that, saying retirement would have left Staudt powerless.

On a different note, are you Americans getting tired that neither candidate has REALLY said what they are going to do to make America a better place?? All they have been doing is throwing darts at each other. Bush gave his speech that Republicans have been giving for decades (lower taxes, balanced budget, line item veto powers, etc..). I don't think America has become a "better" place since Bush stepped in, and I don't see what he's going to do to improve it. I also haven't heard anything interesting from Kerry with regards to America's future. Are Americans as a whole getting tired of the lack of REAL campaigning on either side?

If you're asking if I, as an American, would like the election to happen ASAP so we can move on, I would say yes. This has become a very partisan time in our nation and I'm ready for an end to political positioning on every issue and every rumor.

Brian,

It could be argued that your friends and families were already put in harm's way. 9/11 happened on Bush's watch (remember..on Aug. 8th, Bush was issued a document which stated Bin Laden was going to attack America, and he did nothing), in addition , 1000's of military personnel have died directly because of Bush. The US doesn't sound like a terribly safe place with, or without him....

Brian,

I'm just curious about how you think the US will be dangerous if Kerry gets in? If a terrorist attack occurs should he become President, how would it be any different than what happened on Bush's watch on 9/11?? Bush clearly ignored a large document on August 8th saying Bin Laden was going to attack the USA (this according to the 9/11 Commission finding. Condi Rice also agreed that she and Bush saw the same document). Perhpaps you've said if before and I've missed it, but why is Kerry endangering your family. Surely he would not deliberately allow Americans to be killed. Or does Kerry just have it in for your family??


Oh..and I'm no document expert, but I'd have to believe the document you used for your tests is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy which was then scanned and put on the Net by who only knows. And unlike Bush and the Swifties, there is no evidence to support he had any hand directly or indirectly with these documents. The same can't be said for Bush's people and their "relationship" with the Swifties..

Bush supporters seem to think as long as he is in office and doin pre emptive strikes on other countries we are goin to be safe. Gee im sure we arent pissing anyone off by doin it lol.... Maybe making more people want to join terrorists.

Saturday's issue of the Boston Globe reports that one document expert, Phillip Broussard, who had expressed suspicions about the documents, said "he now believes the documents could have been prepared on an IBM Selectric Composer typewriter available at the time."



In a separate development, the Boston Globe this week reported that Mr. Bush promised to sign up with a Boston-area unit when he left his Texas unit in 1973 to attend Harvard Business School. Mr. Bush never signed up with a Boston unit.

In a separate development, the Boston Globe this week reported that Mr. Bush promised to sign up with a Boston-area unit when he left his Texas unit in 1973 to attend Harvard Business School. Mr. Bush never signed up with a Boston unit.Who cares? It is not like he went in front of the Unites States Congress and committed an act of treason like Kerry did, casuing the loss of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people.

How come all the lefty sympathizers don't sympathize with that fact?

Or the fact that Kerry will let the United Nations dictate our foreign policy and when, where and how we will be able to defend ourselves.

Bush supporters seem to think as long as he is in office and doin pre emptive strikes on other countries we are goin to be safe. Gee im sure we arent pissing anyone off by doin it lol.... Maybe making more people want to join terrorists.
No, that is not it. We just feel it is better and safer to control our own destiny and we have a moral obligation to be the policemen of the world.

No, that is not it. We just feel it is better and safer to control our own destiny and we have a moral obligation to be the policemen of the world.
How can we be policemen of the world when we cannot police our country. Look at all the crime that needs attention inour own country. And if we are going to be policemen of the world, why are we just policing oil producing countries. Why aren't we stopping the injustices thats done to people in Africa and other places. What a hypocrite!

How can we be policemen of the world when we cannot police our country. Look at all the crime that needs attention inour own country. And if we are going to be policemen of the world, why are we just policing oil producing countries. Why aren't we stopping the injustices thats done to people in Africa and other places. What a hypocrite!
Crime: Get rid of the drugs, change our public schools so kids actually get an education, those are 2 things we can do to address the crime in this country.

Oil: Because we are still in a fossil-fuel economy and without stability in the Middle East, I'll let you answer that one yourself. Necessary evil.

Africa: We are in Africa, in places like the Sudan, etc. We do more than the rest of the world combined. Just look at the aids effort. Look it up. We put more money into research and treatment than the rest of the world combined.

So I suggest you run around with hat in hand and get the rest of the world to lift a finger. Whenever there is a problem in the world, guess whose phone rings?

Whilst in office, what exactly has Bush done to "get rid of drugs" and change public schools?

Oil? So you think it's a neccessary evil to invade countries on a lie, and put men and women's lives in danger, just so you can have oil?

The US has done NOTHING to curb the genocide in Africa. NOTHING. Mailing over a few bags of spoiled wheat won't do much there...of course if they had vast oil stores, something might happen...

And yes, the US can't even win the wars at home. So far, you are losing the War on Drugs, the War on Poverty, the War on Illiteracy, etc....

What exactly has Bush said he'd do to fix those things? He hasn't said anything about it, so I don't know why you're so optimistic....

Its cute, but after the first nuke goes off, we'll see how funny it is.

I'll get back to you on your other points.

How can we be policemen of the world when we cannot police our country. Look at all the crime that needs attention inour own country. And if we are going to be policemen of the world, why are we just policing oil producing countries. Why aren't we stopping the injustices thats done to people in Africa and other places. What a hypocrite!

I hate to admit it, but I'm sorta like Kerry on the whole "policeman of the world" thing. Sometimes I'm for it and sometimes I'm against it depending on the situation. So I'm not countering that point (YYAAAAYYYYY!!!!) But crime in our country is down and continues to decline, so that's really not an issue this election. Though I'm sure there are some out there who would like it to be (no offense to anyone there).

Whilst in office, what exactly has Bush done to "get rid of drugs" and change public schools?
Answer: increased funding for anti-drug efforts (which is working) and No Child Left Behind.
Oil? So you think it's a neccessary evil to invade countries on a lie, and put men and women's lives in danger, just so you can have oil?
Answer: No, so I'm glad there was no lie (as has been proven) and it's not all about oil.
The US has done NOTHING to curb the genocide in Africa. NOTHING. Mailing over a few bags of spoiled wheat won't do much there...of course if they had vast oil stores, something might happen...
Answer, one word to totally debunk your viscious lying puke that makes me sick when I read your ignorant, thoughtless, incendiary posts: SOMALIA. (harshness for effect, just like you Ron ;) And what's happening in Sudan is being addressed by the administration. It's still in the early stages.
And yes, the US can't even win the wars at home. So far, you are losing the War on Drugs, the War on Poverty, the War on Illiteracy, etc....
I'm not sure of the answer to those as I'm not even sure if we are "losing" them, but I do know for sure that we're winning the War on Crime and undoubtedly several others if I took the time to research them.
What exactly has Bush said he'd do to fix those things? He hasn't said anything about it, so I don't know why you're so optimistic....
I've answered this question already, so instead I'll ask you a question. If you're so concerned with these things, why don't you urge your own government to do more in the war on drugs and in the atrocities in Africa, etc.? Because I know that you aren't concerned with them. You just want the US to shrivel up, be a push-over, and become nothing more than a consumer of the worlds' goods. You hope we lose in Iraq. You hope we never catch Osama bin Laden (at least not while Bush is president). Even Sting and Annie Lennox had the ethical fortitude to decline with getting involved with the US political process. As soon as Kerry decides to run for office in Canada I'll give him your number to be his campaign manager.

Kbob,

Somalia? I'm not sure how to interpret your answer. You did go to Somalia, you didn't stop the carnage. And after the "Black Hawk Down" fiasco, you packed up and left. I'm not sure about your answer.

Kbob,

Somalia? I'm not sure how to interpret your answer. You did go to Somalia, you didn't stop the carnage. And after the "Black Hawk Down" fiasco, you packed up and left. I'm not sure about your answer.
Look at your quote: "the US has done NOTHING . . ." The fact is that we did do something. On Larry King Live a few weeks ago Clinton expressed that his greatest regret as president is that he didn't do more to stop the slaughter in Rwanda, so this isn't a partisan debate.

Rwanda, yes..was a missed opportunity, and Somalia the help came late. But the US had no oil to gain in either place..so....

??? Have we put to bed the issue that the CBS documents that Dan Rather used to beschmirch President Bush were indeed fakes.

If you would like to see some proof, here you go....
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12526_Bush_Guard_Documents-_Forged

[ 9/9/2004: Bush Guard Documents: Forged
I opened Microsoft Word, set the font to Microsoft’s Times New Roman, tabbed over to the default tab stop to enter the date “18 August 1973,” then typed the rest of the document purportedly from the personal records of the late Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian.

And my Microsoft Word version, typed in 2004, is an exact match for the documents trumpeted by CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main641984.shtml) as “authentic.”

A screenshot of the “original” document as found at CBS:

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/aug-18-1973-memo.gif

__________

A screenshot of my Microsoft Word document:

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/aug181973memo-word.gif

__________

The spacing is not just similar—it is identical in every respect. Notice that the date lines up perfectly, all the line breaks are in the same places, all letters line up with the same letters above and below, and the kerning is exactly the same. And I did not change a single thing from Word’s defaults; margins, type size, tab stops, etc. are all using the default settings. The one difference (the “th” in “187th” is slightly lower) is probably due to a slight difference between the Mac and PC versions of the Times New Roman font, or it could be an artifact of whatever process was used to artificially “age” the document. (Update: I printed the document and the “th” matches perfectly in the printed version. It’s a difference between screen and printer fonts.)

There is absolutely no way that this document was typed on any machine that was available in 1973. ]


THIS is what all this flap is over? Well, I'm not "forensics expert", and the self-proclaimed person who asserts that the above "evidence" is "proof" that this document was forged using MSWord is smoking some good stuff. These two examples are NOT identical and were NOT created using the same method.

PROOF: The "7" and "9" drops below the character line in the "original", not so in the "Word forgery". While very similar, it is not the exact same font set.

PROOF: The bottom of the characters do not all fall on the same horizontal line in the "original", whereas they do on the "Word forgery". This proves that the "original" was created on a machine that does not posess the mechanical precision that a computer and laser printer do. In fact, it leads more credence to the IBM Selectric as they were not as precise in this regard as say a daisy-wheel printer/typewriter or a fixed-font typewriter.

The claim that the superscrips did not exist prior to the advent of word processing equipment is yet another smokescreen thrown up by the GOP that remains in denial about the real GW. It was not uncommon to have font "balls" for the Selectric that contained "st", "nd", "rd" and "th" superscript characters. I've even seen fixed-font typewriters with those characters. THAT is the reason the height of the superscripts are different between the "original" and the "Word forgery". A typewriter creates those superscrips w/ a single strike whereas Word creates them by shrinking the font and raising it above the character line (which is probably adjustable as well).

This "evidence" that these documents were forged would simply not stand up. Clearly these claims about the documents being forged is motivated by the GOP running block for GW so that he doesn't have to come forth and actually LIE by denying the allegations. I'm glad CBS is sticking to its guns on this one.

Who cares? It is not like he went in front of the Unites States Congress and committed an act of treason like Kerry did, casuing the loss of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people.

How come all the lefty sympathizers don't sympathize with that fact?



MAN, you are so blinded by your right-wing bias!! TREASON? Them's fighting words. How easily you ignore the fact that the reason Kerry testified was to help bring the END of the war in Vietnam. Any loss of life was a result of the US govt's refusal to act in that direction and pull the troops out, NOT Kerry's testimony. TREASON? :bsflag: All Kerry did was tell the TRUTH so that Congress would be aware of what was ACTUALLY going on in the jungle. All this BS about treason is yet ANOTHER GOP-inspired, mis-applied word to slander Kerry. He DID NOT COMMIT TREASON (else he would've been court-marshalled, right?), what he DID was tell the TRUTH. What happened after that was some people's feelings got hurt ('cause they were busted) and they are now turning against him w/ all these lies.

No, that is not it. We just feel it is better and safer to control our own destiny and we have a moral obligation to be the policemen of the world.

Who died and put the US in charge of running the world?? I suppose your next statement would've been....... "and we also have a moral obligation to shove our ways, our religion, our currency, our justice system down everyone else's throats too."

Who died and put the US in charge of running the world?? I suppose your next statement would've been....... "and we also have a moral obligation to shove our ways, our religion, our currency, our justice system down everyone else's throats too."
Go Johnney,go Johnney,go johnney :dj:

THIS is what all this flap is over? Well, I'm not "forensics expert", and the self-proclaimed person who asserts that the above "evidence" is "proof" that this document was forged using MSWord is smoking some good stuff. These two examples are NOT identical and were NOT created using the same method.

PROOF: The "7" and "9" drops below the character line in the "original", not so in the "Word forgery". While very similar, it is not the exact same font set.

PROOF: The bottom of the characters do not all fall on the same horizontal line in the "original", whereas they do on the "Word forgery". This proves that the "original" was created on a machine that does not posess the mechanical precision that a computer and laser printer do. In fact, it leads more credence to the IBM Selectric as they were not as precise in this regard as say a daisy-wheel printer/typewriter or a fixed-font typewriter.

The claim that the superscrips did not exist prior to the advent of word processing equipment is yet another smokescreen thrown up by the GOP that remains in denial about the real GW. It was not uncommon to have font "balls" for the Selectric that contained "st", "nd", "rd" and "th" superscript characters. I've even seen fixed-font typewriters with those characters. THAT is the reason the height of the superscripts are different between the "original" and the "Word forgery". A typewriter creates those superscrips w/ a single strike whereas Word creates them by shrinking the font and raising it above the character line (which is probably adjustable as well).

This "evidence" that these documents were forged would simply not stand up. Clearly these claims about the documents being forged is motivated by the GOP running block for GW so that he doesn't have to come forth and actually LIE by denying the allegations. I'm glad CBS is sticking to its guns on this one.

My counter argument to your amateur mico-analysis is copy integrity. I remember years before computers, doing sketches, copying, whiteout, change styles or versions, re-copying, etc... until after a while the copy of the copy of the whiteout of the second version of another copy looked like it had been done by a grade schooler. :F

MY contention is not analysis - I find it impossible to believe that someone manually typing a personal memo for file thirty years ago was so meticulously trained as to coincidently format the text, line breaks, spacing, etc... in the same exact style as produced by the default version in today's most widely used software. Screw the obvious semantics of font and superscripts - you've got to go no further than the surface of this to see this as what it is. argue2

I indirectly supervise dozens of employees and I certainly don't have time to sit down and do memos to file on everyone. What memos I have are due to exceptional circumstances that demand documentation. Not some random thoughts about how I felt someone else was interfering with this and that... geesh.

Maybe this is the journalistic equivalent of 'If you're gonna tell a lie, tell one so big no one will believe it'. If you're gonna make up a story, make one up so incredulous no one will believe it? :rolleyes:

Are the CBS National Guard Documents Fake?

INDC Exclusive. Must Credit INDC.

Based on Powerline's suspicions (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007760.php) of forgery over the documents put forth regarding George W. Bush’s National Guard service, I decided to do some legwork and track down the opinions of forensic document examiners that may have an expertise in old typefaces.

After contacting several experts, a rather notable Forensic Document Examiner named Dr. Philip Bouffard took the time to examine a pdf of the documents (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6693-2004Sep8.html) and perform an initial visual analysis of their authenticity. Dr. Bouffard has a PhD in Chemistry from the University of Michigan, but got involved in forensic examination of typefaces after working in “graphics” with NCR until 1973 and taking a two-year Certification Program in Document Examination at Georgetown University. After completing the program, he became specifically interested in typewriter classification and went to work for a prosecutor’s crime lab in Lake County, Ohio.

Using something called the Haas Atlas (http://www.asqde.org/products_services.htm), the definitive collection of various typefaces, Mr. Bouffard (and other forensic document examiners) examined the veracity of various documents for over 30 years. Beginning in 1988, Mr. Bouffard hired a programmer to write a computer database program (http://www.asqde.org/datapg1.htm) that catalogues the nearly 4,000 typefaces that appear in the Haas Atlas (http://www.asqde.org/datapg1.htm). This computer program is now a forensic standard that is sold as a companion to the Haas Atlas by American Society of Questioned Document Examiners (http://www.asqde.org/) (ASQDE). Though semi-retired, Dr. Bouffard is one of the top two experts in forensic document examination (regarding typefaces) in the country.

UPDATE: The name of the program that Dr. Bouffard developed is called "The Typewriter Typestyle Classification Program" (C:\TYPE).

What did Dr. Bouffard think of the documents?

First, the necessary caveats:

• The pdf document is of poor quality. It seems to have been copied and recopied several times, blurring letter characteristics.

• Also, certain types of analysis can only be done on the original documents, which don’t seem to be available, even to CBS.

So Dr. Bouffard is very clear that his analysis is not 100% positive. That being said …

“It’s just possible that this might be a Times Roman font, which means that it would have been created on a computer. It’s very possible that someone decided to create this document on a computer... I’ve run across this situation before … my gut is this could just well be a fabrication.”

The reasons why?

• Right off the bat, Dr. Bouffard noted what others in the blogosphere have been talking about – something called “proportional spacing,” which means that each letter does not take up the same amount of width on the page. On old typewriters that do not have proportional spacing, the letter “i” would be as wide as the letter “m.” Except for professional typesetting, proportional spacing was only available on a very few models (an IBM model, "Executive" and perhaps one or two other models Mini-Update: Dr. Bouffard e-mails to correct me that it was seven or eight possible models, not one or two - Ed) that were not widely available in 1972-73; the vast majority of typewriters did not have proportional spacing. Because of this, Dr. Bouffard’s computer program immediately eliminated “over 90%” of the possible fonts from typewriters that could create such a document, narrowing it down to perhaps 15 fonts used by a very few models.

• Next, Dr. Bouffard began entering individual characters in an attempt to match them to the remaining fonts that were available on proportional spacing typewriters of that era, focusing on numbers. Thus far, one character stood out, the number “4.” In the document provided by CBS News, the number 4 does not "have a foot" and has a “closed top,” which is indicative of Times New Roman, a font exclusive to more modern computer word processing programs. Other characters matched the old proportional spacing fonts (available on only a small few typewriters of the era), but this number did not (please note that this is only an initial analysis with numerical characters).

Dr. Bouffard ran this number and could not find a match in his entire database of over 4,000 typewriter fonts that have been maintained and collected into his computer database since 1988. Otherwise, the font is very indicative of Times New Roman, the font that is only available on computer word processing programs.


The final word?

Once again, let’s not forget the qualifications: it's a bad copy of a copy and we have no original document for review, but, based on the initial analysis of the documents by an industry expert with over 30 years of experience in typesetting and forensic document examination, the documents “could just well be a fabrication.”

In light of this information, I think that it would be highly appropriate for CBS News and the Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/bush/articles/2004/09/09/bid_cited_to_boost_bush_in_guard/) to attempt to obtain a copy of the original document for more thorough vetting, and run a correction/addendum to the story.

I still have two other forensic document examiners that are examining the pdf file, and I will update if/when they get back to me. I also plan to ask Dr. Bouffard more detail about the nature of the "th" on the end of dates, though in our first conversation he indicated that some typewriters had the capability to do something in that format.

UPDATE: Dr. Bouffard called me again, and after further analysis, he says that he's pretty certain that it's a fake.

Here's why

* He looked through old papers he's written, and noted that he's come up against the inconsistency of the "4" several previous times with forgeries that attempt to duplicate old proportional spaced documents with a computer word processing program.

* Regarding the small "th" after the date, Dr. Bouffard told me that it was possible to order specialty keys that would duplicate the automatic miniaturization completed by word processors after a numerical date, but it was certainly not standard, and wouldn't make a lot of sense in a military setting. "That by itself, while suspicious, is not impossible, but in conjunction with the (font irregularity of the) number four, it is really significant," he said.

* Dr. Bouffard said that signature analysis isn't that relevant because the signature could have easily been copied and pasted onto one of the photocopied forgeries from another document.

* He said that he didn't know who CBS contacted to verify the document's authenticity, but that there is really only one other man that may be more qualified to determine authentic typefaces than himself. I think that the burden of proof may be on CBS to reveal this information.

I asked him to put a percentage on the chances that this was a fake, and he said that was "hard to put a number on it." I then suggested "90%?" Again he said it's "hard to put an exact number, but I'd say it's at least that high, sure. I pretty much agree that that font is Times New Roman."

I hesitate to render verdicts, but based on an initial visual analysis by one of the country's foremost forensic document analysts that specializes in old typefaces, it looks like CBS was duped.

UPDATE: Apologies for the hasty error on Dr. Bouffard's first name - it's Philip.

• Next, Dr. Bouffard began entering individual characters in an attempt to match them to the remaining fonts that were available on proportional spacing typewriters of that era, focusing on numbers. Thus far, one character stood out, the number “4.” In the document provided by CBS News, the number 4 does not "have a foot" and has a “closed top,” which is indicative of Times New Roman, a font exclusive to more modern computer word processing programs. Other characters matched the old proportional spacing fonts (available on only a small few typewriters of the era), but this number did not (please note that this is only an initial analysis with numerical characters).

I still have two other forensic document examiners that are examining the pdf file, and I will update if/when they get back to me. I also plan to ask Dr. Bouffard more detail about the nature of the "th" on the end of dates, though in our first conversation he indicated that some typewriters had the capability to do something in that format.

* Regarding the small "th" after the date, Dr. Bouffard told me that it was possible to order specialty keys that would duplicate the automatic miniaturization completed by word processors after a numerical date, but it was certainly not standard, and wouldn't make a lot of sense in a military setting. "That by itself, while suspicious, is not impossible, but in conjunction with the (font irregularity of the) number four, it is really significant," he said.



Funny, I see no "4", nor any "th" following any date in the "evidence" you have given. This "expert" is obviously looking at a different document altogether. Your argument holds no water.

As a coincidence, there are 4 documents. What a hoot. 4 documents, the Number 4.

I will try to get my hands on the other 3, but with Dan RatherNot viewing them in the stall right now, hopefully they'll come out without too much Rather on them.

There is so much more if you would like me to post more on this issue.

Bush can't be beat on any issues, so this is what the Democrats have had to stoop to. And yes, this came from the slimy DNC and forwarded to Kerry and signed off with his approval.

Commander Killian hand wrote almost all his personal docs. Isn't it convenient they picked a dead guy to use against Bush, one that is unable to defend his own good name?

Here they are. Plenty of 4's for you to peruse at your leisure.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/091004_bush_service.pdf

Funny, I see no "4", nor any "th" following any date in the "evidence" you have given. This "expert" is obviously looking at a different document altogether. Your argument holds no water.
Somebody call a plumber! :eek:

Here they are. Plenty of 4's for you to peruse at your leisure.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/091004_bush_service.pdf


Thanks. But I'm still not convinced that these documents are outside the realm of '72 technology. It may be impossible to prove they are legit, but even harder to prove they are fakes unless someone fesses up. I'd much rather hear GW either confirm or deny the claims. While he doesn't have much credibility with me, at least I'd respect the fact he responded to these allegations. Until then, this whole issue makes him look suspicious.

Until then, this whole issue makes him look suspicious.
And that was the whole intent of the bogus story. Neither Bush nor the Republican party ever attacked Kerry on his service record, but several came out to decry the 527 attacks on Kerry's service record. Where are those same people to defend Bush against the direct accusations of Kerry and the Democratic party? You want to talk about hypocritical, there it is.

I'd much rather hear GW either confirm or deny the claims. While he doesn't have much credibility with me, at least I'd respect the fact he responded to these allegations.What!!! Respond to what. Fabrications? Dreams? Nightmares? I can't beleive you expect him to even give it the time of day.

Every major news organization has come out and called them fakes. Everybody but CBS, which is single-handedly showing the mainstream national bias for liberal ideology and is doing great harm to the whole industry of reporting.

I hope CBS keeps on denying. Dan Blather was a TOTAL JOKE last night on the evening news. Rome is burning and he is sitting there playing his fiddle. Thank the good Lord this guy was finally exposed after all these years, months before his retirement. The whole 60 Minutes crew needs to be exposed for all the years of b.s. they shoveled on the American people..

Remember his softball interview with Saddam. That was also a joke. He is a joke. No need for Bush to respond to anything Dan Rather EVER has to say again.

Neither Bush nor the Republican party ever attacked Kerry on his service record............

WHAT? I guess Cheney is not a part of the Bush adm or the GOP? :bsflag:

What!!! Respond to what. Fabrications? Dreams? Nightmares? I can't beleive you expect him to even give it the time of day.



This is no different than the SBVT issue. Initially Kerry refused to stoop DOWN to that level, but when cornered he defended himself. So far Bush remains aloof on this issue........... as well as many others...................

What's wrong GW? Shoe hurts when it's on the other foot?

I can't wait to see the debates and watch GW squirm when he finally gets cornered on these issues. However, he'll probably have the debate questions rigged....... like he has any other encounter w/ the press.

This is no different than the SBVT issue. Initially Kerry refused to stoop DOWN to that level, but when cornered he defended himself. So far Bush remains aloof on this issue........... as well as many others...................

What's wrong GW? Shoe hurts when it's on the other foot?

I can't wait to see the debates and watch GW squirm when he finally gets cornered on these issues. However, he'll probably have the debate questions rigged....... like he has any other encounter w/ the press.

Your not goin to get anywere, to republicans its totally different. If there is an attack on Bush its false period, if there is a attack on Kerry, its true until totally proven false, then they will admit it.

This is no different than the SBVT issue. Initially Kerry refused to stoop DOWN to that level, but when cornered he defended himself.
Kerry hasn't answered 1, not even 1 Swift Boat claim. Over 250 decorated Vietnam Veterans, soldiers and officers put their lives on hold and their reputations on the line to come out and reveal Kerry for who he is. Over 60 of them signed sworn affidavits stipulating that Kerry is Unfit for Command. Do I believe the words all of these gentleman, or the word of one pathological liar and self-delusional waffler? Humm, tough choice.

Kerry hasn't answered 1, not even 1 Swift Boat claim. Over 250 decorated Vietnam Veterans, soldiers and officers put their lives on hold and their reputations on the line to come out and reveal Kerry for who he is. Over 60 of them signed sworn affidavits stipulating that Kerry is Unfit for Command. Do I believe the words all of these gentleman, or the word of one pathological liar and self-delusional waffler? Humm, tough choice.

Yea like the swift boat guys have made no money from this lol.

Yea like the swift boat guys have made no money from this lol.Not a dime. John O'Neill, author of the book, has donated all proceeds to a war memorial fund.

O’Neill: Zero. I gave away every penny. My total royalty from this book has been given to a military charity. I think I prefer not to name the charity until they formally accept the donation. But I have given every penny away and I won’t accept a penny from this book. [On Monday, August 23, O’Neill identified the charity as the Navy & Marine Relief Fund.]

Not a dime. John O'Neill, author of the book, has donated all proceeds to a war memorial fund.

O’Neill: Zero. I gave away every penny. My total royalty from this book has been given to a military charity. I think I prefer not to name the charity until they formally accept the donation. But I have given every penny away and I won’t accept a penny from this book. [On Monday, August 23, O’Neill identified the charity as the Navy & Marine Relief Fund.]

Thats 1 person, out of what? you said 250? Come on now thats like saying no one in america smokes weed cause you know someone who doesnt!.

I gave away every penny. My total royalty from this book has been given to a military charity. I think I prefer not to name the charity until they formally accept the donation. But I have given every penny away and I won’t accept a penny from this book. [On Monday, August 23, O’Neill identified the charity as the Navy & Marine Relief Fund.]


Oh, I see. Well THAT explains your......, uh...... "strong convictions" against Kerry. :Bang

Thats 1 person, out of what? you said 250? Come on now thats like saying no one in america smokes weed cause you know someone who doesnt!.
The 250 haven't been paid anything.

Oh, I see. Well THAT explains your......, uh...... "strong convictions" against Kerry. :Bang
What is that supposed to mean? That doesn't make sense.

Yea like the swift boat guys have made no money from this lol.:eek2:

Thats 1 person, out of what? you said 250? Come on now thats like saying no one in america smokes weed cause you know someone who doesnt!.
Show me one guy that HAS been paid anything.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon8.gif

Punisher made the claim that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are making money off of this.

PROVE IT! Like they say, put up or ...http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon10.gif

WHAT? I guess Cheney is not a part of the Bush adm or the GOP?
To what are you referring to?

What is that supposed to mean? That doesn't make sense.

My bad, I mis-read MonsterMark's post, I thought he was saying that he was giving HIS royalties away..... implying he had a hand in the publication of that pile of toilet paper....... which would explain.....blah blah blah ........ when in reality he was quoting the nincompoop who authored the pile of toilet paper...... who gave his royalties away.

The reality of this situation is, a money trail from this pile of toilet paper to the SBVs will never be found. Remember how proficient they are at hiding their trails.

To what are you referring to?

I'm referring to this outright lie:

Neither Bush nor the Republican party ever attacked Kerry on his service record..........

Did you not see the speeches at the RNC? You still think the SBVT have (or "had") no connections to the GOP? :Bang

The GOP mantra should be: "If smoke and mirrors, or empty promises don't work, DENIAL will cure all that ails."

My bad, I mis-read MonsterMark's post, I thought he was saying that he was giving HIS royalties away..... implying he had a hand in the publication of that pile of toilet paper....... which would explain.....blah blah blah ........ when in reality he was quoting the nincompoop who authored the pile of toilet paper...... who gave his royalties away.

The reality of this situation is, a money trail from this pile of toilet paper to the SBVs will never be found. Remember how proficient they are at hiding their trails.
I had a hunch you may have thought that. No problem.

You also allude that those guys were paid. Just think about it for a second. 250 guys getting paid and no one ever finding out. Heck, look at all the relatives that are selling out their loved ones in the news lately because they believe the other one is wrong. If those guys got paid, we'd hear about it from someone close to them who was pro-Kerry, believe me.

I'm referring to this outright lie:
Did you not see the speeches at the RNC? You still think the SBVT have (or "had") no connections to the GOP?

Where did they question Kerry's service in the military? They did not. They questioned everything else, but NOT his service in the military. That's not the same, so quit arguing that it is.

[QUOTE=MonsterMark]Man, Oh, Man, Oh Man. When will the madness stop.

CBS News is a fraud, Kerry is a fraud. I think that the 40% of the Country that supports Kerry are in denial and proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that people on the left will vote for anybody with a (D) next to their name, and will ignore everything else. Tough language for sure, but I am tired of all the press coverage on Bush's service. He has been the President for 4 years now. We can all judge his fitness to serve based on this record. Kerry, on the otherhand, has not served yet and should be scrutinized way more intensely.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
In all honesty, I couldnt care less about either of their service records during the Vietnam era. Both have marks against them. I care about the issues, the ones the right AND left wing media arent covering. Listen to NPR for facts with allmost no bias. Whew!

The Republicans have gone out of their way, led by President Bush, to say that Kerry serving was noble. It is his lying about his record, disputed by his own diary and biography, and the records, submitted by himself, that we have problems with. And the fact that he created an act of treason aiding and abetting our enemy at a time of war.

In all honesty, I couldnt care less about either of their service records during the Vietnam era. Both have marks against them. I care about the issues, the ones the right AND left wing media arent covering. Listen to NPR for facts with allmost no bias. Whew! Hey, NJDooWopper, thanks for participating, all viewpoints are encouraged. Even shills for the NPR.

Listen to NPR for facts, with allmost no bias. That is a very entertaining statement. Listen to the extreme left for facts. Uh huh.

Listen to NPR for facts with allmost no bias. Whew!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA . . . no offense, but HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

EDIT: (I agree that we should be focusing on the issues)

We're getting closer to the truth.

CBS Won't Deny Kerry Link to Forged Docs
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/12/102130.shtml

In a development that could have devastating implications for John Kerry's presidential campaign, CBS News is refusing to say whether the top Democrat, his campaign aides or any other prominent party officials had anything to do with supplying "60 Minutes" with a National Guard memo about President Bush that experts say was forged.

Asked about a Kerry connection to the forged memo, a senior CBS official told the New York Post, "I can't answer that question."

Save Ferris

CBS Says Was Misled About Bush Documents.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/politics/ap20040920_1398.html

All in the same breath we have CBS discredit kerry, then discredit bush then take it back. I hope you wont be suprised if Im gonna go ahead and not listen to CBS all that much. During this whole election, everyone is scrambling to find "the big story". Their information lost some of its value for me.

In your furor over the documents, EVERYONE is ignoring what Lt Governor Ben Barnes said about getting Shrub into the Guard. That, to me, just reinforces the image of George Bush as someone who has gotten by his whole life due to his families influence and not his capabilities.

:F

phil

Ben Barnes is the best witness money can buy. He's so deep in the Democratic party and the Kerry camp that it's not even funny. He's a joke and he wouldn't have been in that 60 Minute piece if there wasn't something else to show that he wasn't a complete fool (the forged documents). So in the words of 60 Minutes striving to be fair, why aren't they doing a piece on the Swift Boat Vets? The answer is obvious, the unsubstantiated allegations of anyone, whether it be one (Barnes) or 250 (Swift Boat Vets), is (I repeat) meaningless and useless in valid reporting and all reputable media organizations and reporters know this.

Ben Barnes is the best witness money can buy. He's so deep in the Democratic party and the Kerry camp that it's not even funny. He's a joke and he wouldn't have been in that 60 Minute piece if there wasn't something else to show that he wasn't a complete fool (the forged documents). So in the words of 60 Minutes striving to be fair, why aren't they doing a piece on the Swift Boat Vets? The answer is obvious, the unsubstantiated allegations of anyone, whether it be one (Barnes) or 250 (Swift Boat Vets), is (I repeat) meaningless and useless in valid reporting and all reputable media organizations and reporters know this.
Yes, please read up on Ben Barnes and Bill Burkett. Even a fair minded liberal would have a hard time backing up these schmucks.

I'm curious, where are all the posers, I mean posters, that were here defending CBS and the documents as real? Where did you all go.

If I was so blatantly wrong, at least I would come here and admit it for all to relish in.

"The documents were true, before they were forged." http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon12.gif.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/22/154637.shtml




http://www.newsmax.com/images/spacer.gif [/url]

http://www.newsmax.com/images/spacer.gif Wednesday, Sept. 22, 2004

Gillespie Implicates Kerry's Campaign in Document 'Crime'

Just when you thought it couldn't get any hotter, CBS's latest scandal involving Democrat operatives Dan Rather and [url="http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/22/94426.shtml"]Mary Mapes (http://www.newsmax.com/jump/banners/PermissionGranted.htm) grows even more sizzling.



Here's what GOP chairman Ed Gillespie had to say today during a conference call, with subheads provided by us:





Many questions still remain. Was a crime committed? I believe so. Obviously, forgery is involved. But the Texas Legal Code also says it is a third-degree felony if one "makes, presents, or uses any record, document, or thing with knowledge of its falsity and with intent that it be taken as a genuine governmental record" or "makes, presents, or uses a governmental record with knowledge of its falsity."



Did the Kerry campaign know about the existence of the documents in question in advance of the CBS report? A chronology of events indicates they did.



Bill Burkett says he made multiple contacts with the Kerry campaign in August, sending an e-mail newsletter on August 21 saying he talked to Kerry campaign seniors on Friday, August 20. The Kerry campaign told him they wanted to "counterattack," and he says he "gave them the information to do it with."



'Down and Dirty'

Bill Burkett says he contacted the Democratic National Committee and laid out a rationale for using what he termed "down and dirty tactics against President Bush."



We know that the Kerry campaign devised a strategy to attack the president’s National Guard service that began the same night the Republican National Convention ended, with Senator Kerry attacking the president’s Guard service on the night of September 2.



Two days before the "60 Minutes" report aired, Howard Wolfson, a strategist dispatched to the DNC by the Kerry campaign, joined the DNC to head up "Operation Fortunate Son."



On Wednesday, September 8th, the day of the report, the DNC officially launched "Operation Fortunate Son" and "Texans For Truth," funded by a Kerry supporter, announced an advertising campaign.

Sen. Harkin, the 'Liar'

On Thursday, the day after the "60 Minutes" report, the DNC distributed an ad that had clearly been prepared in anticipation of the CBS News report, and cited the documents at a DNC press conference where Senator Tom Harkin called the president a "liar."



One might argue that these steps were taken without advance knowledge of the existence of the documents and this is all coincidence, but that strains credibility.

Mapes' 'Liberal Beliefs'



CBS has apologized for airing the story based on discredited documents, but has not issued a retraction. One of its producers contacted the Kerry campaign to encourage them to talk to one of her sources who could be helpful to the campaign. Whether this was done as part of an agreement with the source to go public or as a friendly tip, it is entirely inappropriate. Yet CBS News allows to continue in a news-gathering and reporting capacity a journalist who, according to yesterday’s Associated Press "makes no secret of her liberal beliefs" and has unquestionably provided opposition research to one of the presidential campaigns.



Sumner Redstone, Kerry's Money Man

This demonstrates a serious lack of judgment separate and apart from the lack of judgment demonstrated in running a report based on discredited documents. Did this producer’s own political viewpoint cloud her judgment? Is CBS News’ decision to neither suspend nor release the producer in question a result of judgment clouded by Viacom and CBS owner Sumner Redstone's role as a Kerry fund-raiser or Viacom President Tom Freston’s public support of John Kerry for president?



Other questions that should be answered:



<LI>1. We know that CBS put the Kerry campaign in touch with Burkett, but who put Burkett in touch with CBS in the first place? Was it someone at the Kerry campaign, or the DNC?



<LI>2. Who were the seniors other than [former] Senator Cleland that Burkett spoke to at the Kerry campaign on August 20? Lockhart wasn't a part of the Kerry campaign on August 20, and neither were McCurry, Begala, Carville or Greenberg.

So, who spoke with Burkett on August 20, and to whom did he provide the information for a "counterattack"?

<LI>3. Did the Kerry campaign or the DNC know about the documents before the CBS story broke? If so, from whom did they learn of them?



Another Question of 'Character'



The centerpiece of the Kerry campaign’s "character-based critique," Boston-speak for character assassination, is based on a discredited news report that was based on the criminal activity of someone who mocked up and forged documents. What’s that say for the character of the Kerry campaign? CBS should act now to assure its viewers that it understands the gravity of its producers’ actions, and the Kerry campaign and the DNC should answer these questions, abandon its character assassination campaign and focus on the issues relevant to the American people in this election.
See what the Dems do! Out of one side of their mouths they say they want to have a debate on the issues, all the while they are loading up on their character assassination strategies.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon8.gif Pathetic.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon13.gif

I am not going to take it,http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon9.gif so more mud slinging here we come. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon12.gif

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/22/154637.shtml




http://www.newsmax.com/images/spacer.gif [/url]

http://www.newsmax.com/images/spacer.gif Wednesday, Sept. 22, 2004

Gillespie Implicates Kerry's Campaign in Document 'Crime'

Just when you thought it couldn't get any hotter, CBS's latest scandal involving Democrat operatives Dan Rather and [url="http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/22/94426.shtml"]Mary Mapes (http://www.newsmax.com/jump/banners/PermissionGranted.htm) grows even more sizzling.



Here's what GOP chairman Ed Gillespie had to say today during a conference call, with subheads provided by us:





Many questions still remain. Was a crime committed? I believe so. Obviously, forgery is involved. But the Texas Legal Code also says it is a third-degree felony if one "makes, presents, or uses any record, document, or thing with knowledge of its falsity and with intent that it be taken as a genuine governmental record" or "makes, presents, or uses a governmental record with knowledge of its falsity."



Did the Kerry campaign know about the existence of the documents in question in advance of the CBS report? A chronology of events indicates they did.



Bill Burkett says he made multiple contacts with the Kerry campaign in August, sending an e-mail newsletter on August 21 saying he talked to Kerry campaign seniors on Friday, August 20. The Kerry campaign told him they wanted to "counterattack," and he says he "gave them the information to do it with."



'Down and Dirty'

Bill Burkett says he contacted the Democratic National Committee and laid out a rationale for using what he termed "down and dirty tactics against President Bush."



We know that the Kerry campaign devised a strategy to attack the president’s National Guard service that began the same night the Republican National Convention ended, with Senator Kerry attacking the president’s Guard service on the night of September 2.



Two days before the "60 Minutes" report aired, Howard Wolfson, a strategist dispatched to the DNC by the Kerry campaign, joined the DNC to head up "Operation Fortunate Son."



On Wednesday, September 8th, the day of the report, the DNC officially launched "Operation Fortunate Son" and "Texans For Truth," funded by a Kerry supporter, announced an advertising campaign.

Sen. Harkin, the 'Liar'

On Thursday, the day after the "60 Minutes" report, the DNC distributed an ad that had clearly been prepared in anticipation of the CBS News report, and cited the documents at a DNC press conference where Senator Tom Harkin called the president a "liar."



One might argue that these steps were taken without advance knowledge of the existence of the documents and this is all coincidence, but that strains credibility.

Mapes' 'Liberal Beliefs'



CBS has apologized for airing the story based on discredited documents, but has not issued a retraction. One of its producers contacted the Kerry campaign to encourage them to talk to one of her sources who could be helpful to the campaign. Whether this was done as part of an agreement with the source to go public or as a friendly tip, it is entirely inappropriate. Yet CBS News allows to continue in a news-gathering and reporting capacity a journalist who, according to yesterday’s Associated Press "makes no secret of her liberal beliefs" and has unquestionably provided opposition research to one of the presidential campaigns.



Sumner Redstone, Kerry's Money Man

This demonstrates a serious lack of judgment separate and apart from the lack of judgment demonstrated in running a report based on discredited documents. Did this producer’s own political viewpoint cloud her judgment? Is CBS News’ decision to neither suspend nor release the producer in question a result of judgment clouded by Viacom and CBS owner Sumner Redstone's role as a Kerry fund-raiser or Viacom President Tom Freston’s public support of John Kerry for president?



Other questions that should be answered:



<LI>1. We know that CBS put the Kerry campaign in touch with Burkett, but who put Burkett in touch with CBS in the first place? Was it someone at the Kerry campaign, or the DNC?



<LI>2. Who were the seniors other than [former] Senator Cleland that Burkett spoke to at the Kerry campaign on August 20? Lockhart wasn't a part of the Kerry campaign on August 20, and neither were McCurry, Begala, Carville or Greenberg.

So, who spoke with Burkett on August 20, and to whom did he provide the information for a "counterattack"?

<LI>3. Did the Kerry campaign or the DNC know about the documents before the CBS story broke? If so, from whom did they learn of them?



Another Question of 'Character'



The centerpiece of the Kerry campaign’s "character-based critique," Boston-speak for character assassination, is based on a discredited news report that was based on the criminal activity of someone who mocked up and forged documents. What’s that say for the character of the Kerry campaign? CBS should act now to assure its viewers that it understands the gravity of its producers’ actions, and the Kerry campaign and the DNC should answer these questions, abandon its character assassination campaign and focus on the issues relevant to the American people in this election.
See what the Dems do! Out of one side of their mouths they say they want to have a debate on the issues, all the while they are loading up on their character assassination strategies.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon8.gif Pathetic.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon13.gif

I am not going to take it,http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon9.gif so more mud slinging here we come. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon12.gif


Yea its much easier to just Bash... :biggrin:

Bucks sucks!! Just thought id help ya kick off your bashing....

Yea its much easier to just Bash... :biggrin:

Bucks sucks!! Just thought id help ya kick off your bashing....It is easy to bash, I'll admit it. The left makes it so easy to do.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon10.gif

Saying the Bucks suck doesn't hurt much. Now saying the Packers suck, them are fighting words. http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon7.gif

I should start posting all the headlines from the USA Today, Associated Press, New York Times, Washington Post, Boston Herald, LA Times, etc. to demonstrate the obvious slant they have on almost every story. If you were on my side of the fence, you would go crazy in a week. The conservative side has had to put up with this nonsense for decades, but at least I can see light at the end of the tunnel.

Here is a choice one from the USA Today today.
The Associated Press: HEADLINE... Kerry hints that draft could return if Bush re-elected.
The article goes on rambling about the draft for 3 paragraphs, but this line is the best. "There is a House proposal to bring back the draft, but it is a Democratic one." Funny, I just read the headline and it said Bush was going to do this. I guess liberals make headlines to sway public opinion but then sometimes have to bury the truth deep within the article.

Then the article spends the next 10 paragraphs talking about Social Security. Nice, relevant connection.

Then they quote a guy from the University of Chicago that criticizes Bush's plan but at least they go on to say he is an informal adviser to Kerry. I am sure he is unbiased.

It was the last paragraph that held the real treat though. After chest beating that Kerry has such a great program, (of course, not one detail) the article ends with; "Kerry wants to bolster the retirement program by reducing the deficit and expanding the economy." Really, and I want monkeys to fly out of my butt. But then finishes off with a bang. "Some experts say economic growth might be insufficient."

Ah HA! The Kerry plan will steal from the rich to pay down the deficit, sending the economy into another recession, thereby shrinking up the treasury's receipts, leading to greater deficits and insolvency for the SS program. Great idea. Thanks, Sen Kerry.

Yea its much easier to just Bash... :biggrin:

Bucks sucks!!
Way to go, Punisher. Admitting you have a problem is the first step in over-coming it. I'm proud of you. :woowoo2:

Way to go, Punisher. Admitting you have a problem is the first step in over-coming it. I'm proud of you. :woowoo2:

Cant say im proud of you yet though, your still trying to hide behind lies and misconceptions. Maybe 1 day you will find out your problem and over come it.

Cant say im proud of you yet though, your still trying to hide behind lies and misconceptions. Maybe 1 day you will find out your problem and over come it.
I'm not hiding behind anything, much less lies and misconceptions. On the contrary, I simply try to see through the lies and misconceptions. I understand that you think that that's a "problem" and you hope I "over come" it, but you can give that dream up. If I offended you by replying to your joke with a joke in kind, I'm sorry. I realize you are highly sensitive and I will avoid any joking around with you in the future.

MonsterMark,

You make it sound like Bush is the perfect President. You see, I used a capital "P" because I respect the office but I don't respect the man. I believe he got there on the coat tails of his father's name and service to our country. His nickname was "The Chosen One" for crying out loud. I don't believe for a moment that GB is running the country. I don't think that these forged documents amount to anything, just politics as usual. I think that you and your ilk are hanging your hat on a distraction.

MonsterMark,
You make it sound like Bush is the perfect President. You see, I used a capital "P" because I respect the office but I don't respect the man.I don't know if this Country has ever had a perfect President. Don't know if it is even possible. But I do appreciate your effort to show respect for the office of President of the United States.

I believe he got there on the coat tails of his father's name and service to our country. His nickname was "The Chosen One" for crying out loud. President George W. Bush beat an incumbent Vice-President. President Bush was a little known, but very popular Texas Governor before running for President. I would say based on the defeat of George H.W. Bush in 1992, that maybe his name was more of a detriment than a credit. What the American public saw was a plain speaking, likeable guy with convictions and a sense of purpose. That is why he was elected President.

And as I recall, Kerry's fellow Yale mates used to play kazoos to the tune of All Hail the Chief when he walked down the hallway. It is Sen. Kerry who claims to have been the "Chosen One" as he admits he has dreamed of politics and the Presidency since he was a young lad and was destined to be President. So I think you have things a little backwards. But feel free to try again.

I don't believe for a moment that GB is running the country. Who IS running the Country then? His daddy and the evil Carlyle group? Maybe the CIA? After all, it is John Kerry who now thinks the CIA is the greatest, most informed agency in the world, [flip-flop]. Why, because they produced a cautious report on Iraq last week? Sen. Kerry has no shame.

I don't think that these forged documents amount to anything, just politics as usual. I think that you and your ilk are hanging your hat on a distraction."You and your ilk". Such disdain. Tisk, tisk.
Are you embarrassed that the Democrats and the liberal media were flat caught with their pants down? Remember, it took a couple of stains on a blue dress*owned* to get Clinton to perform a mea-culpa. Now it looks like it took some forged documents to finally nail down the hypocrisy of the Democratic Party and their watchdog, the liberal media. I shamefully admit it is such fun watching all of this.

Lastly, if you call purposefully trying to alter the outcome of an election with lies, forgeries and false innuendos, hey, more power to you. We obviously agree to disagree.http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon7.gif

I can smile because I understand the pain all liberals are experiencing as a man they hate more than their own sad lives looks to be moving towards re-election by one the greatest margins of victory in recent elections. So I feel your pain.:rolleyes:

More good news for liberals...

Thanks, Dan: Gallup Finds Trust in Media at New Low

By E&P Staff Published: September 23, 2004 11:00 AM EDT

[snip]found that just 44% of Americans express confidence in the media's ability to report news stories accurately and fairly. [snip]

On the other hand, 39% currently say they have "not very much" confidence in the media's accuracy and fairness, while 16% say they have "none at all." [snip]

The partisan divide goes something like this: 59% of Democrats express confidence in the media, 31% of Republicans do so and 44% of Independents feel that way.

Of the entire sample, 48% perceive the media as "too liberal," 15% as "too conservative," and 33% find it "just about right."

Humm, I wonder why the Democrats express such confidence? Could it be that over 80% of today's press claims to have a liberal bias?

Hey you CBS/Kerry backers, I just wanted to say...

I told you so.

That felt good. :biggrin:

j/k - I just did NOT believe the coincidence.

I noticed all the people that were originally fighting the inevitable gave up.

The link to the DNC and Kerry Kamp are sure to follow.

I beg your pardon. I did not give up thinking that Bush is the worst President in my 52 year memory.

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon10.gif Nice one liner.

We're all entitled to our opinions. That is what I love about this country. Freedom of expression, and disagreeing with your neighbor without wanting to kill them. Not so over in the sand box. That's the big difference as I see it.

That's where we agree. This is the greatest country in the world but I don't think it is our duty or responsibility to bring democracy to the world. I believe that most of the world will come around to democracy on its own. We rose up against our oppressors and created a democracy. Doesn't it have more validity when they do that themselves?

Why can't GWB admit that Iraq is a mess. What GWB has done in Iraq is shameful. He was unprepared for what happened because his ego got in the way.

GWB says he wants smaller government, but it's bigger than ever. The increase in the national debt will haunt all of us living today, forever. GWB has had 4 years to implement the plans he has for the next four years. What's he been doing for the last 4 years?

You keep calling me and my ilk Liberals when, in fact, I am not. I'm a fiscal conservative, a moderate on social issues and a flaming Liberal when it comes to the rights of women and gays.

I don't feel secure yet I believe that we are spending more on security than health, education and welfare combined. What's wrong with that picture?

How can you keep ignoring that 9-11 happened on GWB's watch? I know that the planning and training took place on Clinton's watch but GWB ignored a number of reports, from his own advisers, that he should have taken seriously. Bush planned on attacking Iraq long before he took office. I believe that this distraction is what blinded the Presidency to the clear threat of Osama.

I still say that you are hanging your hat on some documents that may prove to be fabricated. I think that you are ignoring the facts that GWB was absent from his duties during Viet Nam and has only addressed that issue with silence. What rational person wouldn't think that GWB got some favorable treatment to keep "The Chosen One" out of harm's way.

I'm 52 and I was 1-A during a year of Viet Nam. To this day, I am not sure I would have served. I live a half hour from Canada and I was scared. Luckily, my number was 135, but they got way too close for comfort. I probably would have chosen GWB's path but I would have been proud to have taken Kerry's.

I will freely admit that my vote for Kerry is in reality a vote against Bush.

That's where we agree. This is the greatest country in the world but I don't think it is our duty or responsibility to bring democracy to the world. I believe that most of the world will come around to democracy on its own. We rose up against our oppressors and created a democracy. Doesn't it have more validity when they do that themselves?It is absolutely our responsiblity to defend Democracy and plant it wherever and whenever we can in this world. Can I point out Japan, Germany, Poland, Russia, South Vietnam, South Korea, Taiwan, etc. etc. where we have engaged fascism and communism, and prevailed. Are we now going to argue that every one of these countries are not better off? Please...

Why can't GWB admit that Iraq is a mess. What GWB has done in Iraq is shameful. He was unprepared for what happened because his ego got in the way. Bush followed the advice of the US military and intelligence community. It is so much fun pointing the finger instead of figuring out the problem. Kerry will be a disaster waiting to happen. Thankfully, that won't happen.

GWB says he wants smaller government, but it's bigger than ever. The increase in the national debt will haunt all of us living today, forever. GWB has had 4 years to implement the plans he has for the next four years. What's he been doing for the last 4 years?The national debt is as small or smaller as a percentage of GDP as the last 20 years. I am not happy with the spending , but I also recognize the investment that was needed to pull us out of the recession and survive 9/11 intact. If I lost my job, I would probably take out a loan to continue making my house payments, instead of just throwing up my hands, and saying take it. That is what we did. We made an investment, and if Congress keeps the tax cuts intact, the economy will continue to grow like it has the last 3 years and treasury receipts will again catch up to expenditures.

You keep calling me and my ilk Liberals when, in fact, I am not. I'm a fiscal conservative, a moderate on social issues and a flaming Liberal when it comes to the rights of women and gays.First of all, I do not think I have ever used the term "ilk" to refer to any group. Maybe I have, please point it out to me. 2nd, pick a side. riding the fence will not help this country get anywhere. The country need a clear victor so people can clearly see if either process, Liberalism vs Conservatism, is best for this country and its people. I'm fiscally conservative, I'll agree to most social issues, I want (and women already do) have equal rights, gays, just leave me alone. I don't get it. It is a personality disorder that is treatable, but we just choose to ignore that fact.

I don't feel secure yet I believe that we are spending more on security than health, education and welfare combined. What's wrong with that picture?One nuclear bomb blast in a major city and you can forget all about health care, education and welfare. You guys just don't get it. I don't know what it is about turning the other cheek? Do like having your life in danger and the lives of your friends and families? http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com//images/icons/icon9.gif

How can you keep ignoring that 9-11 happened on GWB's watch? I know that the planning and training took place on Clinton's watch but GWB ignored a number of reports, from his own advisers, that he should have taken seriously. Bush planned on attacking Iraq long before he took office. I believe that this distraction is what blinded the Presidency to the clear threat of Osama. The highlighted line from your quote says volumes. Bush inherited a recession, Bush also inherited poor intelligence. Madelline Albright was the WORST Secretary of State in the history of the United States. But I can see that you cannot give Bush credit for the fact that we have not been attacked again. Not even a car bomb. Not even a kid terrorising a school with a gun.

I still say that you are hanging your hat on some documents that may prove to be fabricated. I think that you are ignoring the facts that GWB was absent from his duties during Viet Nam and has only addressed that issue with silence. What rational person wouldn't think that GWB got some favorable treatment to keep "The Chosen One" out of harm's way.Wake up. The documents are fabricated. It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to any reasonable person. The Kerry Kampaign, the DNC and liberal media attempted to discredit the President, and attempted to sabotage an election. People need to go to jail. Simple as that.

Why are you so unhappy that George Bush "only" served 4-1/2 out of his 6 years. Kerry served 1-1/3, and lied about a 1/3 of that. Then he went AWOL for the last 4! Do want to get into that? I will. The guy is despicable in my eyes. We can start another thread and I can post all the glowing reports about Bush as a fighter pilot and all the hundreds of hours he put in flying missions over the Gulf of Mexico. You seem to forget that we were in the midst of cold war and it was imperative that all of our forces were at heightened alert for a possible surprise strke. We can always get into Bush's service later if you would like.

I'm 52 and I was 1-A during a year of Viet Nam. To this day, I am not sure I would have served. I live a half hour from Canada and I was scared. Luckily, my number was 135, but they got way too close for comfort. I probably would have chosen GWB's path but I would have been proud to have taken Kerry's.I guess your lucky that wasn't a bridge you had to cross. I regret not serving my country. There was no draft. I should have volunteered. I am sure I would have turned out to be a much better person for the experience. I am going to encourage my sons to sign up, even if that means they will be put in harm's way. This country has protected me and my family. Generations before me have made extreme sacrifices that allow me to sit here and pontificate. For that, I am extremely grateful.

I will freely admit that my vote for Kerry is in reality a vote against Bush.I am sorry you feel that way. IMHO, Kerry is unfit to command the row boat sitting in my back yard. Terrorists will attack us with impunity with John Kerry in office, because there will be no repercussions. Part of me wants him to win, so people will finally have a clear cut view of the difference between conservatism and liberalism. I just can't do it because I don't want innocent Americans to die because we were viewed as weak.