with a nod to Andy Rooney

DID YOU KNOW?

As you walk up the steps to the building that houses the Supreme Court you can see the near top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal
view ------------ it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!

DID YOU KNOW?

As you enter the Supreme Courts courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on the lower portions of each door.

DID YOU KNOW?

As you sit in the courtroom, you can see on the wall, right above where the Supreme Court judges sit, a display of the Ten Commandments.

DID YOU KNOW?

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and monuments in Washington, D.C.

DID YOU KNOW?

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement;

"We have staked the whole of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

DID YOU KNOW?

Patrick Henery, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said;

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionist but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

DID YOU KNOW?

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

DID YOU KNOW?

Fifty-two of the fifty-five founders of the Constitution were members of the orthodox churches in the colonies.

DID YOU KNOW?

Thomas Jefferson was worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law creating an oligarchy.

DID YOU KNOW?

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said "Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

DID YOU KNOW?

86% of Americans say they believe in God.


Therfore it is hard to understand why there is such a fuss about having the Ten Commandments on display, or "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Alligiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to sit down, shut up and enjoy of the best countries to have existed to date?

__________________________________________________ _______________

All civilizatons are not equal, all societies are not equal. If that were the case people would not be risking their lives to get into this, and only this country, out of all the countries in the world. So why the push to make our country into a facimile of those people are trying to escape from?

You obviously don't understand. Equality in this country means that every last vestige of reference to God has to be stamped out in order to avoid offending the atheist crowd, the 14% you refer to.

:slap:

Did you know:

Did you know that every time a conservative christian feels threatened they will reference the puritanical roots of our country, stand on the bible, and shout "THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD BE" as loud as they can?

Did you know:

Did you know that every time a liberal agnostic feels threatened they will try to destroy the very culture that has made America great, stand in protest against all that is good and pure, and shout "THAT'S THE WAY WE WANT IT TO BE NOW" as obnoxiously as they can?

:D Touche

Did you know:
I'm pretty damn sure Andy Rooney didn't write that.

I wish people would stop incorrectly attributing this things to people. George Carlin, Robin Williams, Dennis Miller, and Dennis Leary didn't write it either.


The establishment clause means that there would be no national religion.
And the comment (not in the constitution) "seperation of church and state" was meant to explain that state wouldn't interfere with the church, not vice-versa.

If that's what the document "meant" why didn't it simply say that. Funny, many others interpret it quite the opposite way that you do.

....Hummm, imagine if both abided by each others laws..

mach8, thanks for posting it....who cares who wrote it, the statements are proven.

MsM8

Did you know:
I'm pretty damn sure Andy Rooney didn't write that.

Didn't claim he did.

Didn't claim right or wrong, only pointed out what is.

It's pretty well documented that the writers of the Constitution were seeking to avoid theocracies of the type that had overshadowed europe for so long when they mentioned (rather in passing) a sparation of church and state.

Didn't claim he did.



-My criticism wasn't of you, mach8.
It was of the people who start those e-mailings and mislabel them, not the people who receive them or pass them on in good faith. There are a number of simliar essays floating around the internet. Sometimes valid statements are made in those forwards, but misattributing them by the first person in the e-mail chain undermines them.

Seperation of church and state wasn't "mentioned in passing," it wasn't mentioned at all. It's a statement made by Thomas Jefferson in a letter he was writing to Danbury Baptists.

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of
Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits,
and humbly to implore his protection and favors."

-- George Washington (Thanksgiving Proclamation, 3 October 1789)

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of
Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits,
and humbly to implore his protection and favors."

-- George Washington (Thanksgiving Proclamation, 3 October 1789)

Hear Hear.:I

:I :iconcur:

To that small fourteen percent I would say, "Majority Rules".

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of
Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits,
and humbly to implore his protection and favors."

-- George Washington (Thanksgiving Proclamation, 3 October 1789)

Well, how do we obey God's will in America? There are many religions in this great land that make up that 86% and they vary how God's will should be obeyed. Do we do a national raffle and randomly pick a religions doctrine on how God should be obeyed and make everyone stick with that? Do tell, I will listen to any great idea. I see a quandry here when different religions contradict each other on how to obey God's will.

Well, how do we obey God's will in America? There are many religions in this great land that make up that 86% and they vary how God's will should be obeyed. Do we do a national raffle and randomly pick a religions doctrine on how God should be obeyed and make everyone stick with that? Do tell, I will listen to any great idea. I see a quandry here when different religions contradict each other on how to obey God's will.

If you knew anything about George Washington, you would know which God he's referring to, and would then know where to go to find out what God's will is.

If you knew anything about George Washington, you would know which God he's referring to, and would then know where to go to find out what God's will is.


If you felt it necessary to answer for Calabrio, at least give an actual answer that pertains directly to the question or at least a direct answer.

Surprise, surprise, I do know something about George Washington, to answer you, he was a Christian (or maybe some other offshoot of Christianity), but regardless the same basic principals of worshipping God are there.

So according to you, we should follow George's ideals and all worship God in a Christian sense.(?) That would be the American thing to do?

Surprise, surprise, I do know something about George Washington, to answer you, he was a Christian (or maybe some other offshoot of Christianity), but regardless the same basic principals of worshipping God are there.

Oh, good. Then the answer is easy. All you have to do is follow the Ten Commandments. That's what the Bible says.


So according to you, we should follow George's ideals and all worship God in a Christian sense.(?) That would be the American thing to do?

That would be the American thing to do according to George Washington. I believe it is his statement that you have such a problem with.

Do you really hate God, or do you just like to argue about everything for the sake of the argument?

Oh, good. Then the answer is easy. All you have to do is follow the Ten Commandments. That's what the Bible says.

That would be the American thing to do according to George Washington. I believe it is his statement that you have such a problem with.

Yes, it was his statement, but you did say "Hear Hear I agree" when Calabrio originally posted it. That means you are in agreement with that statement. :eek: So I have to conclude that you feel Americans need to be Christians to be Americans. I copied the post, see below incase you forgot.

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of
Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits,
and humbly to implore his protection and favors."

-- George Washington (Thanksgiving Proclamation, 3 October 1789)

Hear Hear.:I

That is the quote posted by Calabrio, then your agreement.

Do you really hate God, or do you just like to argue about everything for the sake of the argument?

Certainly no, God never did anything wrongful to me. I do like how you've taken the 'You must hate America' bit and turned in into "You must hate God.'

next it will be you must hate superman because you have batman in your avatar.

Yes, it was his statement, but you did say "Hear Hear I agree" when Calabrio originally posted it. That means you are in agreement with that statement. :eek: So I have to conclude that you feel Americans need to be Christians to be Americans.


LOL wow do you jump to conclusions. You really stretch things here. Neither the quote from GW nor my statements ever said "I feel Americans need to be Christians to be Americans." I believe he said "It is the duty of nations..."

Your conclusion is a non sequitur.


next it will be you must hate superman because you have batman in your avatar

And yours is an unfounded generalization.

When do you guys actually start making logical arguments? This is getting old. All you guys can muster is sarcasm and flawed logic over petty little issues.

LOL wow do you jump to conclusions. You really stretch things here. Neither the quote from GW nor my statements ever said "I feel Americans need to be Christians to be Americans." I believe he said "It is the duty of nations..."

Your conclusion is a non sequitur.



And yours is an unfounded generalization.

When do you guys actually start making logical arguments? This is getting old. All you guys can muster is sarcasm and flawed logic over petty little issues.

Fine, you don't feel that way. But all nations have a duty to obey God in a Christian way? That sounds logical to you?

Fine, you don't feel that way. But all nations have a duty to obey God in a Christian way? That sounds logical to you?

Sure it sounds logical to me. At any moment God could pull His hand back and allow millions of people to die, but He doesn't do that because He allows us free will. That despite the fact that based upon His standards, all of us deserve to die.

Do you realize that the very air you breathe and the very actions of your lungs and heart keeping you from instantly expiring all come from God? Col. 1:17 says, "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

The least any of us can do is try to give God the respect and honor He deserves. Those who don't may not have anything happen to them...yet...but everyone at some point stands in front of God, whether they believe they will or not.

Sure it sounds logical to me. At any moment God could pull His hand back and allow millions of people to die, but He doesn't do that because He allows us free will. That despite the fact that based upon His standards, all of us deserve to die. .

So besides the atheist & agnostics, the Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and any other religion I can't think of at the moment is screwed huh?

Do you realize that the very air you breathe and the very actions of your lungs and heart keeping you from instantly expiring all come from God? Col. 1:17 says, "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.".

I would if I believed that the Bible was Gods word/will.

The least any of us can do is try to give God the respect and honor He deserves. Those who don't may not have anything happen to them...yet...but everyone at some point stands in front of God, whether they believe they will or not.

Correct and who's to say that anyone else's way of respecting God and honoring God is wrong? I'll answer that for you, only God is to say. Maybe when your time comes and you stand before God, God will look upon you and say you did not choose wisely. I know you believe with 100% certainty you have, but you never know.

Oh no...he knows God LOVES the way he chooses to honor...God spoke to him, one dark night during his prayer, and he asked for God's light to shine upon him, and he asked for God's holy spirit to guide him, and he accepted Jesus' death as God's gift...and all was instantly right with the world...

You know how I know? Because I too have spoken to God in the dark night, and she told me I'm a bad bad boy, and that I am to continue being a bad boy until just before I die at which point I should relent and come to her through her son.

WOW:gr_devil: ...and you said I have issues...

Oh no...he knows God LOVES the way he chooses to honor...God spoke to him, one dark night during his prayer, and he asked for God's light to shine upon him, and he asked for God's holy spirit to guide him, and he accepted Jesus' death as God's gift...and all was instantly right with the world...

You know how I know? Because I too have spoken to God in the dark night, and she told me I'm a bad bad boy, and that I am to continue being a bad boy until just before I die at which point I should relent and come to her through her son.

Oh no...he knows God LOVES the way he chooses to honor...God spoke to him, one dark night during his prayer, and he asked for God's light to shine upon him, and he asked for God's holy spirit to guide him, and he accepted Jesus' death as God's gift...and all was instantly right with the world...

You know how I know? Because I too have spoken to God in the dark night, and she told me I'm a bad bad boy, and that I am to continue being a bad boy until just before I die at which point I should relent and come to her through her son.

That is a definite loop hole.. If murderers, thieves, sodomites and any sort of un-Christian person can be redeemed by accepting Jesus as their personal savior. We definately have a way into the pearly gates.

That is a definite loop hole.. If murderers, thieves, sodomites and any sort of un-Christian person can be redeemed by accepting Jesus as their personal savior. We definately have a way into the pearly gates.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7.


Would you mind translating? I am under the impression that even the wicked can be saved by accepting Jesus.

Would you mind translating? I am under the impression that even the wicked can be saved by accepting Jesus.

Your phrase "even the wicked" is a misnomer because it implies that some people are good enough to get to heaven on their own. According to the Bible we are all wicked. It is a common misconception to compare ourselves with others "more bad than us" rather than compare ourselves with perfect Almighty God.

You throw around terms like "accepting Jesus" without really understanding what repentance is, or that we all are in danger of falling into judgment at any time.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Luke 13:3, 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: Who can know it?

Heb 10:31 - It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Your phrase "even the wicked" is a misnomer because it implies that some people are good enough to get to heaven on their own. According to the Bible we are all wicked. It is a common misconception to compare ourselves with others "more bad than us" rather than compare ourselves with perfect Almighty God.

You throw around terms like "accepting Jesus" without really understanding what repentance is, or that we all are in danger of falling into judgment at any time.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Luke 13:3, 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: Who can know it?

Heb 10:31 - It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Still don't get you... I'll simplify.

Is a murderer still capable of salvation through Jesus?

Still don't get you... I'll simplify.

Is a murderer still capable of salvation through Jesus?

Yes.

What did you mean by loophole?

Yes.

What did you mean by loophole?

Maybe loophole was the wrong word, but I meant if murderers can be redeemed then certainly people like Raven and I can be saved and enter heaven later in life.

Maybe loophole was the wrong word, but I meant if murderers can be redeemed then certainly people like Raven and I can be saved and enter heaven later in life.

No argument from me there.

No argument from me there.

And lo the mystery and duality that is the one, 'true', Christian, God revealed itself to the non-believers.

Loophole was the right word for it. According to Christianity, regardless of your actions in life, should you have one moment of conscious clarity before death and accept God, and Jesus as son and saviour, then you shall be rewarded on the paradise earth that shall follow this one.

My biggest issue isn't so much with this loophole as with the concept of being in bliss in a paradise earth with all the 'believers' after the judgment. According to the bible, no tear shall fall and there will be no heartache. I for one would be devastated should my mother, atheistic, bohemian, heathen that she is, not be able to join me. There is simply no way around that. Should God wipe my mind of this worry? I hope not...I would anguish in my ignorance. Will God then make copies of all those unsaved that do not make the cut? Again I hope not because that would be a lie.

Like I've said...I may be going to hell, but that's probably where all the fun people will be anyway.

Let's see if I can follow your logic. You distort salvation into some 'moment' of clarity, which isn't Biblical, then you say you'd rather burn in hell than be without your mother. You don't believe hell is a bad place, apparently, but you do believe it exists. Common sense missing here.

On the contrary, hell will not be a fun place. The Bible calls it a place of fire and brimstone, of torment, reserved for the devil and his angels. If you think you're gonna party hearty down there, you're in for a rude awakening, your mockery and bravado notwithstanding.

Let's see if I can follow your logic. You distort salvation into some 'moment' of clarity, which isn't Biblical, then you say you'd rather burn in hell than be without your mother. You don't believe hell is a bad place, apparently, but you do believe it exists. Common sense missing here.

On the contrary, hell will not be a fun place. The Bible calls it a place of fire and brimstone, of torment, reserved for the devil and his angels. If you think you're gonna party hearty down there, you're in for a rude awakening, your mockery and bravado notwithstanding.

My comment wasn't that I would rather burn in hell than be without my mother, my comment was if I am to be in paradise, then to truly be paradise my mother would have to be there.

My views on hell/heaven/afterlife are much more complex than I could possibly go in to explanation with you on. I'm putting aside my disbelief in the concept of hell in order to explain to you why I don't believe in it.

Let me be more clear one more time for you (I'm also simplifying to the concepts of hell and heaven even though there are supposedly more destinations than that for those that die in christianity):

I go to heaven as a 'saved' christian

My mother goes to hell as an unsaved though learned heathen

Heaven is a place of celebration and joy...the bible specifically says "There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain..."

Should I be in heaven and my mother, whom I love dearly, be in hell I would be mourning and crying in the painful knowledge that she is suffering in your hell of "place of fire and brimstone, of torment"

More than just my mother, being a good christian I would feel that all of mankind is my 'brother' and would mourn the million if not trillions of the damned that go to that eternal torment.

This is the section of Christian belief that I hold as key to my enlightenment that it is false.

My comment wasn't that I would rather burn in hell than be without my mother, my comment was if I am to be in paradise, then to truly be paradise my mother would have to be there.

My views on hell/heaven/afterlife are much more complex than I could possibly go in to explanation with you on. I'm putting aside my disbelief in the concept of hell in order to explain to you why I don't believe in it.

Let me be more clear one more time for you (I'm also simplifying to the concepts of hell and heaven even though there are supposedly more destinations than that for those that die in christianity):

I go to heaven as a 'saved' christian

My mother goes to hell as an unsaved though learned heathen

Heaven is a place of celebration and joy...the bible specifically says "There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain..."

Should I be in heaven and my mother, whom I love dearly, be in hell I would be mourning and crying in the painful knowledge that she is suffering in your hell of "place of fire and brimstone, of torment"

More than just my mother, being a good christian I would feel that all of mankind is my 'brother' and would mourn the million if not trillions of the damned that go to that eternal torment.

This is the section of Christian belief that I hold as key to my enlightenment that it is false.

I see where you are coming from and respect the fact that you disagree with some parts of the Bible. You are being more intellectually honest about the need for millions/trillions to be saved than most Christians I know, who would rather ignore their duty to share the gospel. At least you acknowledge what kind of Christian you would expect to be.

However, the Bible does say that God will, on judgment day, wipe all tears from the eyes of the saved after it is all over. The memory of the past won't be there with regard to sin or sorrow. God will simply erase it.

...the Bible does say that God will, on judgment day, wipe all tears from the eyes of the saved after it is all over. The memory of the past won't be there with regard to sin or sorrow. God will simply erase it.

Ok, well I think I would rather suffer in knowledge than live in blissful ignorance.

And I suppose that's a choice everyone would have to make.

I see where you are coming from and respect the fact that you disagree with some parts of the Bible. You are being more intellectually honest about the need for millions/trillions to be saved than most Christians I know, who would rather ignore their duty to share the gospel. At least you acknowledge what kind of Christian you would expect to be.

However, the Bible does say that God will, on judgment day, wipe all tears from the eyes of the saved after it is all over. The memory of the past won't be there with regard to sin or sorrow. God will simply erase it.


That brings up another question though, was heaven empty before the coming of Christ? Because if only through the true acceptance of Jesus as your personal savior can one enter the kingdom of heaven. How where the millions (billions? trillions?) of people saved before Jesus came to be? It's not like they had the option (free will) of accepting Jesus before Jesus came to be.

Think of all the great and long lasting empires that existed before Jesus.... Egyptian, Roman (earlier part), Babylonian, Macedonian, Etruscan, Classical Greek, Aztec, Mayan, Incan there are many more that I can't think of, but all these existed before the coming of Christ, not to mention people from the Stone Age on up to these empires. That's a whole lot of people burning in hell that did not have the option of accepting Jesus.

I actually answered this question in another thread. I've pasted the quote for your perusal.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=15007&page=2&highlight=sacrifice


That is an excellent question.

The Old Testament actually refers to Jesus many times, although not by that exact name. The Old Testament (old covenant) between God and Man was for man to offer God a sacrifice each year for his individual sins. That sacrifice was to be a blemish-free lamb which was to be burnt by the High Priest. Those who kept that law had their sins forgiven. The Israelites also had the prophets to proclaim the Word of God to them on a regular basis, and there are clear examples of forward-looking recognition that the Son of God was their salvation.*

It is noteworthy that the Jews ultimately rejected and even murdered the prophets for hundreds of years, which led to the nation of Israel's almost constant state of captivity as punishment by God. In fact, at the time that Jesus was born, Rome had conquered Israel and was ruling the country with a firm hand. The spiritual leaders of the nation were allowed to continue to practice their religion, however, and they (the Pharisees) had a certain level of status under Roman occupation. It was into this climate of unbelief and religious arrogance that Jesus was born. When he became an adult, he began his ministry in which he preached repentance and judgment, especially for the Pharisees. But the thing they really couldn't stomach was that he claimed to be the Messiah. This threatened to upset their little cabal, so they conspired to kill him by inciting a mob and trumping up false charges of blasphemy.

*The Bible says there is only one God, but He is manifest in three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ was God the Son.

The Bible says Jesus Christ is God. “Who says?” someone might ask. Following are some of those in the Bible who said that Jesus Christ is God.

DAVID CALLED HIM GOD
"Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?" (Matt. 22:42-45).

ISAIAH CALLED HIM GOD
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel" (Isaiah 7:14).
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6).

JEREMIAH CALLED HIM GOD
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Jeremiah 23:5-6).

MATTHEW CALLED HIM GOD
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us" (Matthew 1:23).

CHRIST CALLED HIMSELF GOD
"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:17-18).
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by" (John 8:58,59).
"I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:30-33).
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8).

THE ANGELS CALLED HIM GOD
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:11).

THE BLIND MAN CALLED HIM GOD
"Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him" (John 9:35-38).

THOMAS CALLED HIM GOD
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

PETER CALLED HIM GOD
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)" (Acts 10:34-36).

JOHN CALLED HIM GOD
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).
"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren" (1 John 3:16).
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 John 5:18).

PAUL CALLED HIM GOD
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood" (Acts 20:28).
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philippians 2:5-6).
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” (Col. 1:15-17).
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (1 Timothy 3:16).
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

GOD THE FATHER CALLED HIM GOD
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" (Hebrews 1:8-9).

Hebrews 1:8-9 is quoted from Psalm 45, and in Psalm 45 it is obvious that God the Father, Jehovah God, is speaking about the Son. God the Father calls the Son God, and God the Son calls the Father God. This is the mystery of the Trinity. Though we do not fully understand it, we believe it because it is the teaching of the Scriptures.

That brings up another question though, was heaven empty before the coming of Christ? Because if only through the true acceptance of Jesus as your personal savior can one enter the kingdom of heaven. How where the millions (billions? trillions?) of people saved before Jesus came to be? If not like they had the option of accepting Jesus before Jesus came to be.

Think of all the great and long lasting empires that existed before Jesus.... Egyptian, Roman (earlier part), Babylonian, Macedonian, Etruscan, Classical Greek, Aztec, Mayan, Incan there are many more that I can't think of, but all these existed before the coming of Christ, not to mention people from the Stone Age on up to these empires. That's a whole lot of people burning in hell that did not have the option of accepting Jesus.

I can field that one. Jesus said that he was born to replace all the old traditions. Those that followed the old traditions were still saved, but now instead of having to sacrifice things yourself, you simply accept Jesus' sacrifice as the sacrifice for your sins.

Also those not aware of Jesus or God are covered in the bible because they will all be brought back to life and for 1000 years peace will reign on earth and they will all be taught God's word and will be given the chance to accept Christ's sacrifice or not to.

(I won a Washington state preaching competition when I was 16...I've really extensively studied these things.)

Think of all the great and long lasting empires that existed before Jesus.... Egyptian, Roman (earlier part), Babylonian, Macedonian, Etruscan, Classical Greek, Aztec, Mayan, Incan there are many more that I can't think of, but all these existed before the coming of Christ, not to mention people from the Stone Age on up to these empires. That's a whole lot of people burning in hell that did not have the option of accepting Jesus.

Pretty sad, huh? I'll bet you find that hard to believe.

Read Romans 1, especially verses 18-25.

1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

1:23
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

1:24
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Pretty sad, huh? I'll bet you find that hard to believe

So what's your answer, people had free will to choose, but they only had one choice? Hell. Because, as you say the Old Testament speaks of Jesus before the actual coming of Jesus. But many of those civilizations and not to mention from the Stone Age on up where around LONG before even the Old Testament.

So what's your answer, people had free will to choose, but they only had one choice? Hell.

Your question is rhetorical, so I can't answer it. Are you trying to pigeonhole me again, or do you really have a question?

I can field that one. Jesus said that he was born to replace all the old traditions. Those that followed the old traditions were still saved, but now instead of having to sacrifice things yourself, you simply accept Jesus' sacrifice as the sacrifice for your sins.

Also those not aware of Jesus or God are covered in the bible because they will all be brought back to life and for 1000 years peace will reign on earth and they will all be taught God's word and will be given the chance to accept Christ's sacrifice or not to.

(I won a Washington state preaching competition when I was 16...I've really extensively studied these things.)

If all that have died from the being of time onward where to be brought back to life, we would be crushed together like sardines.

Your question is rhetorical, so I can't answer it. Are you trying to pigeonhole me again, or do you really have a question?

No, I am not... Just how are you expected to choose the right path when only the wrong path is made available.

If all that have died from the being of time onward where to be brought back to life, we would be crushed together like sardines.

Oh I agree...but so says the bible.

Also those not aware of Jesus or God are covered in the bible because they will all be brought back to life and for 1000 years peace will reign on earth and they will all be taught God's word and will be given the chance to accept Christ's sacrifice or not to.

(I won a Washington state preaching competition when I was 16...I've really extensively studied these things.)

Wow...which Bible were you reading out of? Nowhere in my Bible does it say that stuff. Good thing the judges weren't judging for doctrinal accuracy.

You're referring to the millenium, of course, but there is no mention of people being brought back to life and being given a second chance. The Bible says, "It is appointed unto man ONCE to die, but AFTER THIS the judgment."

..............Loophole was the right word for it. According to Christianity, regardless of your actions in life, should you have one moment of conscious clarity before death and accept God, and Jesus as son and saviour, then you shall be rewarded on the paradise earth that shall follow this one...........

Guess that shows what's important to GOD, being accepted. It's the other things which are important for man to live well.

Doesn't the bible say you should reject all other gods and accept Jehova as the one true god? Who are these other gods Jehova is in competition with for souls (for lack of a better term) ? Why should we pick him? Why don't the others stand up and toot their horns?

I'm curious how you guys who aren't Christian keep "pigeon holing" all Christians together. I know that many of the religions have totally different beliefs, so why do you always lump everyone together? What if I lumped all Eastern religions together? Why then I'd be a racist or theist or something. Why does everyone have to argue all the time about what you should do here or there? I never "accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior". And I believe that the basic teachings of Jesus are pretty damned intuitive. If you want to go deeper, send me a PM. I'll be more than happy to tell you about my beliefs. But don't expect me to start arguing them with someone. I'm not here to prove that I'm right and you're wrong. That's why they call it faith, because no matter what, I believe and know that I am right. That's not something you can read in the Bible. That is something you have to live to attain. You have to experience what God can do, not just read about it. For God's sake, quit bickering and just be good people. Just make sure stuff you do doesn't hinder anyone else in life beyond reason, and I'm sure God will smile with favor on you. And please for the love of God, stop saying I'm the same as every other Christian out there, because I am not, no offense, but there are distinct differences. It's the same as saying a Mexican and Brazilian are the same thing. They are most obviously not. Simililar backgrounds, but in the present, time has taken them in different directions.

..............Loophole was the right word for it. According to Christianity, regardless of your actions in life, should you have one moment of conscious clarity before death and accept God, and Jesus as son and saviour, then you shall be rewarded on the paradise earth that shall follow this one...........

since when is true repentance and forgiveness a loophole? it's not like you can really fake that you know.

since when is true repentance and forgiveness a loophole? it's not like you can really fake that you know.

If you are quoting raVeneyes, you need to seriously question your sanity.

If you are quoting raVeneyes, you need to seriously question your sanity.

Vitas, lay off Raveneyes. He's MY b!tch.

If you are quoting raVeneyes, you need to seriously question your sanity.


FYI....Quoting someone doesn't mean you agree with their thoughts. Also, don't you have better things to do and you said in a previous thread?

FYI....Quoting someone doesn't mean you agree with their thoughts. Also, don't you have better things to do and you said in a previous thread?

Point it out.