Hey guys I was thinking about getting a new LS but then my buddy just bought one!!! so I think im gettin somthing diffrent now.. does anyone know anything about the Lexus GS430 is it faster? ride nicer? better all around car?

More expensive, nice ride, more expensive to work on, much faster, more expensive to work on, doesn't hold it's value any more than an LS, more expensive to work on, great interior, more expensive to work on....

get the idea????

Well... the cheapest GS430 ($51 grand) you can buy costs more than a LS with every single available option ($49 grand), and is faster than the LS... so I'd go with the Lexus. :)

I test drove the GS430 2 months ago. I bought the Lincoln LS because I liked the car and wanted to "Buy American".

The f'd up part is that two weeks after I bought the LS Lincoln they announced that the Wixom factory may close? I was pissed!

The GS430 is a better car on EVERY count. The LS is a good American car. But when you get in a BMW 5 series or a GS430 its a whole other world. When you shut the door on a 5 or 430 its like closing a bank vault air tight door, and they have wood everywhere, better dash gauges, more after market support, more wheel and tires.

The LS is good American Made car. But it has ZERO aftermarket support and its just a GOOD car. A BMW 5 is a GREAT car, the fit an finish are second to none, the quality is 100% and the 430 is not far behind.

I would say; buy the Lincoln, you won't be sorry. Mine stickered at $49,888.00 and I got it for $39,752.00 with the FORD employee pricing, and an additional $1000 off from the dealer, and an additional $500 off for using FORD Motor Credit....and at ZERO PERCENT interest.

You'll be happy with the Lincoln, thrilled with the GS430 and exhillerated with a BMW 5.

well, the lexus gs430 has 300hp? v8..i know the older gen had 300hp..all i can go by is the older gen 98-04 and they are nice cars..but i dont like the interior. However, the plus is V8, rwd, sub 6 second 0-60 acceleration..skid control, great sound system, select shift auto.


For a BMW 5 series, dont they only have 230 hp? I dont know bmw's that well, and the ones i were looking at were the pre 03 restyling..but i do like the fact that bmw puts a manual in almost everyone of thier cars as an option. i just think unless you get an m series they are under powered.

A CTS/ STS would be another choice i would toss out their, or a 300 SRT-8 or 300 C

$ for $ you cant beat a LS for the features you get. The Lexus is a bad mama though. If you can afford it get it. How bout the new IS350? I saw one on the road yesterday, I had to stop drooling.

IS350 is nice, 14.0 in a quarter mile.... will smoke an LS. and it is almost half the price of a GS!

The LS is good American Made car. But it has ZERO aftermarket support and its just a GOOD car.
I don't know about ZERO now.... :N

You should also look at the E Class Benz models.

See the problem is it didnt seem like the LS was all the smooth of a ride or powerful..... Whats with the v6 s-type jag are they as fast as the v8 ls? and all the CTS I see are v6 there not that quick are they??? whats the fastest v6 luxury car you guys know of? just a v6 no turbo or supercharger

The IS350 looks real nice, but still not cheap (definitely not half the GS), at $44k with premium package. And that's a damned fast luxo-V6, by the way.

Gotta think about street prices. The LS is about $10k off sticker for '05s. You'll get nothing off the IS yet. As someone else said, the GS is like $50K, and Lexus just doesn't discount much in general. What about the Acura RL? '05s are going for $43k.

I dont understand all the emphasis on 0-60 times and horsepower ratings when deciding to buy a car. Unless it's some sh!tbox 4 cylinder then most all cars have plenty of power to do 99.9% of the driving you need. This has to be a direct correlation to the number of a-hole drivers nowadays. Everyone needs 300+ horsepower. Why? Is there such a need to prove yourself to others by having a faster car ? Its a total invasion but i'd love to see government standards of horsepower and top speed on cars. I looked at plenty of cars before buying my LS, and some took about two seconds after sitting in them to decide i didnt want it, never even started the engine. Your paying a premium price for a premium name. All of the 35-40k+ cars have great quality its just a matter of what suits you best.

3.5 V6 Altima is pretty quick! if i remember correctly it is a mid to low 14's car. G35 coupe is either 13.8 or 14.0!

The IS350 looks real nice, but still not cheap (definitely not half the GS), at $44k with premium package.

well... i said ALMOST half, because i was basing my knowledge off motor trends as tested model which says $39k. but screw the premium package, what is that anyway a stupid navi system for almost $5k. which i can go aftermarket and only pay $1k???

I dont understand all the emphasis on 0-60 times and horsepower when deciding to buy a car. Unless its some sh!tbox 4 cylinder then most all cars have plenty of power to do 99.9% of the driving you need. This has to be a direct correlation to the number of a-hole drivers nowadays. Everyone needs 300+ horsepower. Why?

Because its fun!!

And its not about "need", its about "want."

Apply that same question to anything in life .... a 20" TV can show programs just fine, why do you want a big screen? $45k salary can keep you out of the poorhouse, so why do you want $75K? A pentium 2 with 12" monitor can handle 99% of your tasks, so why do you want anything faster? A homely girl can get you off, so why do you want a supermodel?

So go ahead and tell me you live in a one-room apartment with your toothless wife and are typing from a first-gen pentium 'puter ... otherwise you can put away the holier-than-thou attitude.

well... i said ALMOST half, because i was basing my knowledge off motor trends as tested model which says $39k. but screw the premium package, what is that anyway a stupid navi system for $5k. which i can go aftermarket and only pay $1k???

adds moonroof and perforated leather heated seats, for example. Not much of a luxury car without those things. Might as well get the Altima (as you mentioned) if you want to skip those things, IMHO.

I dont understand all the emphasis on 0-60 times and horsepower ratings when deciding to buy a car. Unless it's some sh!tbox 4 cylinder then most all cars have plenty of power to do 99.9% of the driving you need. This has to be a direct correlation to the number of a-hole drivers nowadays. Everyone needs 300+ horsepower. Why? Is there such a need to prove yourself to others by having a faster car ? Its a total invasion but i'd love to see government standards of horsepower and top speed on cars. I looked at plenty of cars before buying my LS, and some took about two seconds after sitting in them to decide i didnt want it, never even started the engine. Your paying a premium price for a premium name. All of the 35-40k+ cars have great quality its just a matter of what suits you best.

Why you ask? Because they can -- Just like why you can have opinions that others find very strange. Thats the great country we live in - Thanks for your input in the situation, its been noted.

Because its fun!!

And its not about "need", its about "want."

Apply that same question to anything in life .... a 20" TV can show programs just fine, why do you want a big screen? $45k salary can keep you out of the poorhouse, so why do you want $75K? A pentium 2 with 12" monitor can handle 99% of your tasks, so why do you want anything faster? A homely girl can get you off, so why do you want a supermodel?

So go ahead and tell me you live in a one-room apartment with your toothless wife and are typing from a first-gen pentium 'puter ... otherwise you can put away the holier-than-thou attitude.
All of the examples above are in regards to a persons private life in their own dwellings, doesnt impact anyone else. But if a speed limit is 45 and your going 65 so you can show that other guy who's boss than your infringing on the safety of others, thats why. If the 300+ hp car is to go to a licensed race facility then fine, go at it. But your fun comes at the expense of others. If you have a "want" to prove something with your car then you are the one lacking something.

just for $hits and giggles i was building my own IS from lexus site. they did not have those options to select the moonroof and perforated heated leather seats.
and the only option i picked was the 18 wheels. here is what i came up with as a price. but knowing me i can bring the price down!




Base MSRP* $35,440.00
• Standard Features
Available Packages
$720.00
• 18-in Alloy Wheels with Summer Tires
- 18-in Alloy Wheels with Summer Tires
Accessory Options $0.00
• Trunk mat (see dealer)
• Wheel locks (see dealer)
• Cargo net (see dealer)
• 18-in G-Spider alloy wheels (see dealer)
• All-weather floor mats (see dealer)
• Car cover (see dealer)
Delivery, Processing & Handling Fee†
$590.00
Total MSRP** $36,750.00





Here is your completed Lexus. We hope that this tool has helped you make some decisions about your new vehicle. Now that you know what your ideal Lexus will be, you can contact your local dealer to request a quote.
Lexus of Orlando
305 North Semoran Boulevard
Winter Park, FL 32792
(407) 678-2000
Map/Driving Directions





STANDARD FEATURES
Performance Features

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3.5-liter V6, four cam, four valves per cylinder, with continuously Variable Valve Timing with intelligence (VVT-i) on intake and exhaust valves

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306 hp [1] @ 6,400, 277 lb-ft torque [1] @ 4,800 rpm

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Six-speed paddle-shift sequential automatic Electronically Controlled Transmission with intelligence (ECT-i)

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Independent, double-wishbone front suspension with coil springs, gas-pressurized shock absorbers and hollow stabilizer bar

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Independent, multi-link rear suspension with coil springs, inverted mono-tube gas-pressurized shock absorbers and stabilizer bar

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Rear-wheel drive

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Electronic vehicle-speed-sensing, progressive power-assisted rack-and-pinion steering

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Four-wheel power-assisted disc brakes [2]

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17-in alloy wheels with 225/45VR17 all-season tires front, 245/45VR17 all-season tires rear [3]

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Estimated fuel consumption: 21/28 mpg city/highway [4]
Luxury Features

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Metallic-finish interior trim

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Leather-trimmed interior

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Leather-trimmed steering wheel and shift knob

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Steering-wheel-mounted cruise control, audio and display controls

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Tilt-and-telescopic steering column

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Lexus 13-speaker 194-watt [5] Premium Sound System with Automatic Sound Levelizer (ASL) and in-dash, single-feed, six-disc CD auto-changer

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MP3 audio input plug

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In-glass antenna with FM-diversity system

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10-way driver's and front passenger's (including lumbar) power seats

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Height-adjustable headrests for all seats, including rear-center

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Dual-zone automatic climate control with interior air filter, smog sensor and automatic recirculation mode

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Power tilt-and-slide moonroof with rotary dial adjustment, one-touch open/close and sliding sunshade

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Power windows with one-touch auto open/close feature

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Remote-linked window and moonroof opening

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Retained accessory power for windows and moonroof

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Electrochromic (auto-dimming) inside rearview mirror

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Power door locks

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SmartAccess with push-button start

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Center console with sliding armrest, storage bin and accessory outlet

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Foldable front-door storage pockets

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HomeLink® universal transceiver to operate compatible garage, gate, home lighting and home security systems

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Illuminated entry system

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Electroluminescent instrumentation with startup sequence

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Interior electronic trunk-lid and fuel-filler-door releases

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Lexus Personalized Settings (LPS) [6] to personalize electronic functions

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Automatic on/off projector-beam headlamps with 30-second delay

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Dual chrome exhaust tips

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Trunk pass-through

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Carpeted floor mats
Safety and Security Features

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Driver's and front passenger's advanced airbag system (SRS) with front passenger's twin-chamber airbag [7]

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Front seat-mounted side airbags (SRS) [7]

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Front and rear side curtain airbags (SRS) [7]

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Driver's and front passenger's knee airbags (SRS) [7]

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Three-point seatbelts for all seating positions, pre-tensioners with force limiters for front and outboard rear seats

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Automatic Locking Retractor/Emergency Locking Retractor (ALR/ELR) seatbelts for all passenger seating positions. Emergency Locking Retractor (ELR) only for driver's seat

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Height-adjustable front shoulder belt anchors

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Child Restraint Seat (CRS) tether anchor brackets for rear outboard seating positions

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Four-wheel power-assisted disc brakes [2]

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Four-sensor, four-channel Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)

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Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management (VDIM) [8]

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Traction Control (TRAC)

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Brake Assist [9]

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Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD)

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Lexus four-sensor Tire Pressure Monitor System [10]

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Highly rigid body structure with front and rear crumple zones

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Side-impact door beams

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Reinforcements in pillars

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Impact-dissipating upper interior trim

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Collapsible steering column

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Daytime running lights

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Integrated foglamps

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Water-repellent front-door glass

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Variable intermittent windshield wipers with mist cycle

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Rear-window defogger with auto-off timer

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Power-adjustable outside mirrors with puddle lamps

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Vehicle theft-deterrent and engine immobilizer system

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Tool kit

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First aid kit
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Lexus tries to make sure that availability information is accurate and up-to-date. However, exact configuration details cannot be guaranteed at all times, and vehicle availability may be subject to change prior to sale.

* 2006 Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. Excludes taxes, title, license and optional equipment. Actual dealer price may vary.

** 2006 Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price, including delivery, processing and handling fee. Excludes taxes, title and license. Actual dealer price may vary. Does not include accessory options installed by dealer.

† Historically, vehicle manufacturers and distributors have charged a separate fee for processing, handling and delivering vehicles to dealerships. Lexus' charge for these services is called the "delivery, processing and handling fee" and is based on the value of the processing, handling and delivery services Lexus provides, as well as Lexus' overall pricing structure. Lexus may make a profit on the delivery, processing and handling fee.

[1] Ratings achieved using the required premium unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 91 or higher. If premium fuel is not used, performance will decrease.

[2] High-friction brakes are standard equipment for the front brakes only and require periodic inspection and measurement as outlined in the Owner's Manual Supplement. The pads and rotors are expected to experience greater wear than conventional brakes. Pad life may be less than 20,000 miles, and brake rotor life may less than 50,000 miles, depending on driving conditions.

[3] Tires fitted with 17- or 18-in wheels are expected to experience greater tire wear than conventional tires. Tire life may be substantially less than 20,000 miles (17-in) or 15,000 miles (18-in), depending on driving conditions.

[4] EPA-estimated ratings: 21 city/28 highway mpg. Actual mileage may vary.

[5] 194 watts at 0.1% THD.

[6] The Lexus Personalized Settings (LPS) program is a one-time, complimentary offer for new 2005 model year vehicles and newer purchased or leased from 10/1/04 and beyond, as well as 2006 model year vehicles, up to 12 months from the date the vehicle is sold to the first retail purchaser or the date it is first used as a demonstrator, lease or company car, whichever occurs first. Please see your Lexus dealer for more information.

[7] The Lexus driver's and front passenger's airbags, front seat-mounted side airbags, driver's and front passenger's knee airbags and side curtain airbags are Supplemental Restraint Systems (SRS). The driver's and front passenger's airbags and driver's and front passenger's knee airbags are designed to deploy in severe (usually frontal) collisions where the magnitude and duration of the forward deceleration of the vehicle exceed the design threshold level. The side airbags and side curtain airbags are designed to deploy in certain types of severe side-impact collisions. In all other accidents, the airbags will not deploy. To decrease the risk of injury from a deploying airbag, always wear your seatbelt, sit upright in the middle of the seat, and do not lean against the door. Do not put objects in front of an airbag or around the seatback. Do not use a rearward-facing child seat in any front passenger seat. The force of a deploying airbag SRS may cause serious injury or death. Please see your Owner's Manual for further instructions. Vehicle complies with "advanced airbag" requirements of FMVSS 208.

[8] Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management (VDIM) is an electronic system designed to help the driver maintain vehicle control under adverse conditions. VDIM is not a substitute for safe driving practices. Factors including speed, road conditions and driver steering input can all affect whether VDIM will be effective in preventing a loss of control. Please see your Owner's Manual for further details.

[9] Brake Assist is designed to help the driver take full advantage of the benefits of ABS. It is not a substitute for safe driving practices. Braking effectiveness also depends on proper brake-system maintenance and tire and road conditions.

[10] The Lexus Tire Pressure Monitor System alerts the driver when tire pressure is critically low. For optimal tire wear and performance, tire pressure should be checked regularly with a gauge; do not rely solely on the monitor system. Please see your Owner's Manual for details.

Specifications, features, equipment, technical data, performance figures, options, and color and trim are based upon information available at time of posting, are subject to change without notice, are for mainland U.S.A. vehicles and may differ in the state of Hawaii, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands and in other regions.

All of the examples above are in regards to a persons private life in their own dwellings, doesnt impact anyone else. But if a speed limit is 45 and your going 65 so you can show that other guy who's boss than your infringing on the safety of others, thats why. If the 300+ hp car is to go to a licensed race facility then fine, go at it. But your fun comes at the expense of others. If you have a "want" to prove something with your car then you are the one lacking something.


Your kidding with that response right? LOL

You've got more worrying about the general bad drivers in the world than to grab onto that straw that just slipped out of your hand. Quit picking fly shyt out of pepper. Its done, move onto another thread.

K well yea the lincoln is a nice car but mine didnt hold up very well.... If i where to buy a car with like 30,000 miles on with what you you guys go with?

Your kidding with that response right? LOL

You've got more worrying about the general bad drivers in the world than to grab onto that straw that just slipped out of your hand. Quit picking fly shyt out of pepper. Its done, move onto another thread.
Nah, its attitude like yours that suck with no regard to others. Maybe you live in some hole in the wall town, oh wait..Detroit, yep. But with the amount of driving i do i see a-hole drivers daily. And i see fatal accidents all the time, and i am sure plenty of others that arent news worthy. If you dont think that your driving habits on public roads dont affect others than your a sad sad person. Its obvious your just a punk kid, once you have a family with a wife and small child on the road your perspective will change. As far moving on...nah. I think i'll be staying right here tough guy.

All of the examples above are in regards to a persons private life in their own dwellings, doesnt impact anyone else. But if a speed limit is 45 and your going 65 so you can show that other guy who's boss than your infringing on the safety of others, thats why. If the 300+ hp car is to go to a licensed race facility then fine, go at it. But your fun comes at the expense of others. If you have a "want" to prove something with your car then you are the one lacking something.

i didn't say anything about top speed... and neither did you. You commented on 0-60. I have plenty of roads with 65 mph limits. And why does it have anything to do with showing off? Do you go on a roller coaster to show off? No, you do it for your own personal amusement.

i didn't say anything about top speed... and neither did you. You commented on 0-60. I have plenty of roads with 65 mph limits. And why does it have anything to do with showing off? Do you go on a roller coaster to show off? No, you do it for your own personal amusement.
Dude, look back at the progression of the posts. It went from a Lexus vs. LS inquiry with regards to price and quality. It then went in the direction of 0-60 times and 1/4 mile and how much horsepower and whats the "fastest" V6. You may not have gone that direction but thats the direction it went.

K well yea the lincoln is a nice car but mine didnt hold up very well.... If i where to buy a car with like 30,000 miles on with what you you guys go with?

it is hard to say. what type of guy are you when it comes to cars? are you picky? are you more of a sedan or coupe person?

just for $hits and giggles i was building my own IS from lexus site. they did not have those options to select the moonroof and perforated heated leather seats.


Weird. I just went there and had several packages to choose from that included perforated leather heated seats. Another weird thing is that I can't deselect a package?? So, in other words, you HAVE to buy the $2500 package or higher?? Is that right?

Moonroof is standard, apparently.

It does come out cheaper on the Lexus site, though. I did it through Edmunds before and it was quite different. However, one big difference I noticed on the Lexus site is that you have to step up to the $6800 package, minimum, to get memory seats. That's pretty ridiculous.

Weird. I just went there and had several packages to choose from that included perforated leather heated seats. Another weird thing is that I can't deselect a package?? So, in other words, you HAVE to buy the $2500 package or higher?? Is that right?

Moonroof is standard, apparently.

It does come out cheaper on the Lexus site, though. I did it through Edmunds before and it was quite different. However, one big difference I noticed on the Lexus site is that you have to step up to the $6800 package, minimum, to get memory seats. That's pretty ridiculous.
Thats the way the premium brands get you nowadays is if you want one little option you have to get some whole package. Ridiculous stuff.

Weird. I just went there and had several packages to choose from that included perforated leather heated seats. Another weird thing is that I can't deselect a package?? So, in other words, you HAVE to buy the $2500 package or higher?? Is that right?

Moonroof is standard, apparently.

It does come out cheaper on the Lexus site, though. I did it through Edmunds before and it was quite different. However, one big difference I noticed on the Lexus site is that you have to step up to the $6800 package, minimum, to get memory seats. That's pretty ridiculous.

that is very weird... i had like 4 options to choose from. hmmmm maybe i think it is based off of area codes? but i did not have that option to step up to the $6800 package. very weird!

Dude, look back at the progression of the posts. It went from a Lexus vs. LS inquiry with regards to price and quality. It then went in the direction of 0-60 times and 1/4 mile and how much horsepower and whats the "fastest" V6. You may not have gone that direction but thats the direction it went.

And, again, how does going 0-60 as fast as you want for your own personal amusement differ from any number of others things you do for your own amusement (like owning a big screen TV, etc)?

And forget about endangering others, because that's a driver-by-driver thing and has nothing to do with it. I like hitting the track whenever possible ... as do many many other folks. So why should i not care about how fast a car is? Back to my roller coaster analogy ... i'm not riding the teapots when I can go on the looping coaster instead. If you don't find fun in driving a fast car, that's your issue. That's exactly why they make the Toyota Prius ... for those who don't care about "fun" in their car.

that is very weird... i had like 4 options to choose from. hmmmm maybe i think it is based off of area codes? but i did not have that option to step up to the $6800 package. very weird!

i guess that's why they ask for zip code before you can configure your car. Bizarre they'd want to offer different things to different regions, though. Oh well.

And, again, how does going 0-60 as fast as you want for your own personal amusement differ from any number of others things you do for your own amusement (like owning a big screen TV, etc)?

And forget about endangering others, because that's a driver-by-driver thing and has nothing to do with it. I like hitting the track whenever possible ... as do many many other folks. So why should i not care about how fast a car is? Back to my roller coaster analogy ... i'm not riding the teapots when I can go on the looping coaster instead. If you don't find fun in driving a fast car, that's your issue. That's exactly why they make the Toyota Prius ... for those who don't care about "fun" in their car.
I understand your analogy, and it makes sense. But you used a key word, "personal amusement". That doesnt involve anybody but you. You driving above the speed limit is illegal, thats a lame point but true. And that "fun" driving affects others, not exactly me, i'm a big boy and i consider myself a good driver and i can spot the a-holes and handle my own. But its the old lady or the soccor mom not paying attention that gets startled or whatever and crosses the median or swerves and runs off the road. I feel the same way about excessively slow drivers, by driving slow or even right at the speed limit in some cases you cause people to slow down and drive around you being an obstacle. If your driving adversely affects other drivers than thats a problem.

hell if i can get that IS for that price $hit i am stealing that car. also i think i can shave like $1-2k off of it... which would be around $33-34k, out the door that would be sic!

Underpowered BMWs?? Never neard that before.

The 92-01 540i has 282 hp, 02-03 540i has 290hp, the newer body 545i has 325hp/6100rpm and 330lb/3600rpm torque, the latest 550i has 360hp/6300rpm and 360lb of torque at only 3400rpm. And none of those are M models. The M models are very powerful, like, 91 m5 has 315hp, 94-95 has 340hp, 99-03 has 400hp, and the new one 05-up 507hp, just saw one yesterday, wow. But of course the Ms are very expensive, even used.

I don't know about underpowered BMWs man, even my 90 325i can kick my LS's a*s any day in acceleration and speed.


SSTUD wrote:

"For a BMW 5 series, dont they only have 230 hp? I dont know bmw's that well, and the ones i were looking at were the pre 03 restyling..but i do like the fact that bmw puts a manual in almost everyone of thier cars as an option. i just think unless you get an m series they are under powered."

I understand your analogy, and it makes sense. But you used a key word, "personal amusement". That doesnt involve anybody but you. You driving above the speed limit is illegal, thats a lame point but true. And that "fun" driving affects others, not exactly me, i'm a big boy and i consider myself a good driver and i can spot the a-holes and handle my own. But its the old lady or the soccor mom not paying attention that gets startled or whatever and crosses the median or swerves and runs off the road. I feel the same way about excessively slow drivers, by driving slow or even right at the speed limit in some cases you cause people to slow down and drive around you being an obstacle. If your driving adversely affects other drivers than thats a problem.

reread my post. i specifically talk about the track. So, no, my "fun" driving affects nobody else.

why get a Lexus IS just buy a Hyundai Sonata the cars look the same!
and then when you race and loose to an Lexus IS just have the 10-15K you saved and throw it up and down in your car. Frankly anytime you see the Lexus IS do the same thing [(just want to make sure I don't get the race nazi's on my case)]

Buying a car is your personal prefrence. I was lucky and fell in love with the LS. sure I liked BMW's and Benzes but for the price range I was in ~22K nothing could match the LS.

See the problem is it didnt seem like the LS was all the smooth of a ride or powerful..... Whats with the v6 s-type jag are they as fast as the v8 ls? and all the CTS I see are v6 there not that quick are they??? whats the fastest v6 luxury car you guys know of? just a v6 no turbo or supercharger
acura TL

why get a Lexus IS just buy a Hyundai Sonata the cars look the same!
and then when you race and loose to an Lexus IS just have the 10-15K you saved and throw it up and down in your car. Frankly anytime you see the Lexus IS do the same thing [(just want to make sure I don't get the race nazi's on my case)]

why would you buy a hyundai and dump 10-15k on it? i rather have the IS. true story here. i know this guy who has a 88 or 89 LX stang, in his own words said this.... i swear to god. he says to me and my good friend "i am starting to get fed up with my car, i wasted $60k on it and i only do 12.8, with that money i could have bought a corvette and still have money left over for the insurance." he is the most nicest guy i have ever met, really cool guy too. and i just hear from my buddies that he went to the track and snapped his rear end on the car. so that is why i can not see people dump soooo much into a car while to can buy something that 1. retains in value in the long run. 2. it is already fast out of the box 3. you know that if something breaks in that car you can bring it back to the dealer and get it fixed on the arm!

Infiniti G35 sedan, I am not talking about the M3, because it's 6 ciliner in line, you asked about the V6s.

See the problem is it didnt seem like the LS was all the smooth of a ride or powerful..... Whats with the v6 s-type jag are they as fast as the v8 ls? and all the CTS I see are v6 there not that quick are they??? whats the fastest v6 luxury car you guys know of? just a v6 no turbo or supercharger

My boss has a new Infiniti M45. I have never been much of an Infiniti fan but that ride is awesome.

I dont understand all the emphasis on 0-60 times and horsepower ratings when deciding to buy a car. Unless it's some sh!tbox 4 cylinder then most all cars have plenty of power to do 99.9% of the driving you need. This has to be a direct correlation to the number of a-hole drivers nowadays. Everyone needs 300+ horsepower. Why? Is there such a need to prove yourself to others by having a faster car ? Its a total invasion but i'd love to see government standards of horsepower and top speed on cars. I looked at plenty of cars before buying my LS, and some took about two seconds after sitting in them to decide i didnt want it, never even started the engine. Your paying a premium price for a premium name. All of the 35-40k+ cars have great quality its just a matter of what suits you best.


That is true if you are comparing a cobalt to a civic. Both are slow turds with just enough power to get you out in traffic before the grandma passes you in the slow lane.

Lets get real, he is looking a sport luxury sedans. Not bread and butter cars like the impala or ford 500. I always look at the HP rating on a car. If you ever plan on racing it or just want a car that can hang on the weekends or if your a spirited driver then HP matters to you. If not then dont buy a car that has that advertised. Fast luxury cars demand a premium. Thats why bmw has M series, MB has AMG, caddy has V-series, Lexus has the GS series, Jag has R-type, Lincoln has the LS are all set at farily high prices and thats why people pay to get them. Going fast with class.

why would you buy a hyundai and dump 10-15k on it? i rather have the IS. true story here. i know this guy who has a 88 or 89 LX stang, in his own words said this.... i swear to god. he says to me and my good friend "i am starting to get fed up with my car, i wasted $60k on it and i only do 12.8, with that money i could have bought a corvette and still have money left over for the insurance." he is the most nicest guy i have ever met, really cool guy too. and i just hear from my buddies that he went to the track and snapped his rear end on the car. so that is why i can not see people dump soooo much into a car while to can buy something that 1. retains in value in the long run. 2. it is already fast out of the box 3. you know that if something breaks in that car you can bring it back to the dealer and get it fixed on the arm!


60k on a fox stang? that only runs 12.8? Thats total BS its impossible to spend that much and go that slow unless he has 14k gold rims, with a 15,000 stero system, more dvd LCD screnes then radio shack! Even if you did a total frame off resto and dropped in a new drive train..it wouldnt cost anything close to 60k. even if you had a 40k dollar motor tranny combo it still wouldnt cost 60k in the end.:bsflag: :bsflag:

*yawn* whatever dude. you were not there so do not even question me. who knows why it equaled that much. probably parts and labor, stuff in the car probably got f'ed up and he had to get it replaced. who knows, but those are his words. why would someone lie on saying how much they spent on there car. he was man enough to even say that he wasted that much, most people would not say at all.

...snip...Unless it's some sh!tbox 4 cylinder then most all cars have plenty of power to do 99.9% of the driving you need. This has to be a direct correlation to the number of a-hole drivers nowadays. Everyone needs 300+ horsepower. Why? Is there such a need to prove yourself to others by having a faster car ? Its a total invasion but i'd love to see government standards of horsepower and top speed on cars....snip...

You have GOT to be $hitting me!!! I almost fell out of my chair when I read that...

But of course, I also drive a 500 hp Cobra. I've also been driving for almost 40 years. I've got a grand total of two tickets...both of them in a V6 Grand Prix.

By your logic, we should also ban stereo systems, navigation systems, information centers, just about any option on the car that can detract from driving the car. Hmmm....might as well get rid of cupholders too...better not have a soda or cup of coffee with you.

There are countries out there that do the sort of things you imply. Try living in one of them for a while and let us know how you like it.

Your statement absolutely stuns me beyond belief.

*yawn* whatever dude. you were not there so do not even question me. who knows why it equaled that much. probably parts and labor, stuff in the car probably got f'ed up and he had to get it replaced. who knows, but those are his words. why would someone lie on saying how much they spent on there car. he was man enough to even say that he wasted that much, most people would not say at all.

I have to admit Joey...I had an 89 LX that would hit 11's on a good day that I built for 10k...including the car. And it had impeccable street manners. Of course, I did ALL the work...everything including the machine work at a close friend's machine shop.

I have to admit Joey...I had an 89 LX that would hit 11's on a good day that I built for 10k...including the car. And it had impeccable street manners. Of course, I did ALL the work...everything including the machine work at a close friend's machine shop.



You are absolutely correct. But on that same token I have seen certain people with no real vision or understanding of how to make their car fast, and end up spending an insane amount of money. I am figuring that guy probably tried to take shortcuts here and there and got burned in the long run. Though it is a pretty high number, I can see $60k being spent on making a car decently fast if the person doesnt have a clue as to what they are doing.

You are absolutely correct. But on that same token I have seen certain people with no real vision or understanding of how to make their car fast, and end up spending an insane amount of money. I am figuring that guy probably tried to take shortcuts here and there and got burned in the long run. Though it is a pretty high number, I can see $60k being spent on making a car decently fast if the person doesnt have a clue as to what they are doing.

I agree Rocket...but damn that's a lot of mistakes to eat up 60K!! Of course, he very well could have had 15K in paint, another 5K or better in stereo equipment, 5K in the interior, wheels, etc etc that don't have a thing to do with performance. So maybe it's not as bad as it sounds.

Well...to answer the original question. This is a Lincoln/Cadillac site...BUY THE LINCOLN. Damn the Lexus.

see there might be more factors on to why it costed so much for him. maybe he started out small, then slowly upgrading to newer and more expensive parts. yes i have to say for that much he should of been not in the 11's but maybe in mid to very low 10's! granted this was about 3 yrs ago, he told us this, and like i said on one of my posts in this thread that sometime this year he f'ed his rear end at the track. things break and needs to be repaired. maybe he is totaling all work, maintenace and mods? who the hell knows but as much as of a cool and nice guy he is, it is sad that he is not going to get nearly as half for his car if he sells it.

Sorry I jsut wanted to compare the GS to the LS didnt think it would cause so much trouble lol

Sorry I jsut wanted to compare the GS to the LS didnt think it would cause so much trouble lol

haha.
hey, its just a 2 page tangent. no biggie. :)

But the whole fox mustang thing helped you choose between the LS and GS, right?

You have GOT to be $hitting me!!! I almost fell out of my chair when I read that...

But of course, I also drive a 500 hp Cobra. I've also been driving for almost 40 years. I've got a grand total of two tickets...both of them in a V6 Grand Prix.

By your logic, we should also ban stereo systems, navigation systems, information centers, just about any option on the car that can detract from driving the car. Hmmm....might as well get rid of cupholders too...better not have a soda or cup of coffee with you.

There are countries out there that do the sort of things you imply. Try living in one of them for a while and let us know how you like it.

Your statement absolutely stuns me beyond belief.
Your right, that statement is way outta line and i wouldnt want to live somewhere with that kinda of restriction. But if the speed limit is say...65, then doing anything over 80mph gets ridiculous, annoying and dangerous. Just today a Honda S2000 blew by weaving doing atleast 120, i was doing 70 in a 65. If i had spent another second changing lanes he would have smacked into me. I honestly think if i was in my Intrepid vs. the LS i would have taking one for the team and let this guy smack into me doing 120 mph. So for all that think i am some old guy with the "get off my lawn" attitude, i'm not. I just drive a ton of miles and encounter alot of B.S. here in Orlando and it gets old really really quick. If you take offense to my comments then they must describe you. There has been close to 500 views on this thread and only a handfull who defend this kind of driving, so you must be one of them. I get some resolve when i see stuff thinking that just maybe those drivers will wrap their car around a tree one day and that will be the end of 'em. I guess kind of an A-hole natural selection process.

can we please talk more about the stang guy. Let's get him on here and tell us his side of the story.
]

-really who gives a sh*t he's a dumbass. kill this sub-thread. :dancefool

Fla02ls - {Just today a Honda S2000 blew by weaving doing atleast 120, i was doing 70 in a 65. If i had spent another second changing lanes he would have smacked into me. I honestly think if i was in my Intrepid vs. the LS i would have taking one for the team and let this guy smack into me doing 120 mph.}

70 in a 65 ur nuts u should of been smacked into. u should be going at least 75 THAT"S the rule.!! lol j/k passing someone closely doing 120 is pretty stupid. I was doing 120 yesterday as well except when I saw a car about 10 car lengths ahead of me i slowed down...passed him doing 75. There is a place and a time for being stupid, to me that's when there is nobody else around. I'll let u of this time Fla02LS but you better drive the rule next time. (10 over atleast)

humm a good luxury sports car......how about an acura TL? but then again you can never go wrong with a bmw! those things may seam underpowered but they are quick!! dont be fooled with their HP and torque ratings... but i feel in love with my lincoln and wouldnt get another car unless i had to... in which case i would get the G35 coupe, BMW 330ci or M3 you could always do a used 2000 M5 for about 35k i belive.

[QUOTE=Fla02LS]...snip...If you take offense to my comments then they must describe you. There has been close to 500 views on this thread and only a handfull who defend this kind of driving, so you must be one of them...snip.../QUOTE]

I am not defending stupid drivers. I'm defending the right to drive what you want where you want when you want. I will just about guarantee you that there are more people killed in auto accidents from cars with less than 250 hp than those with more than that. HP doesn't kill anyone.

And I take offense to your personal accusation of my driving style. You have no idea how I drive. Just because I own several guns doesn't mean I go out and shoot someone with them. I love owning a 500 hp car. It's something I could NEVER have afforded to own and drive as a young man. But honestly, it's almost too much. If I nail it anything over about half throttle in 2nd gear it blows the tires off. So I drive it pretty conservatively. My son will take and air it out a bit on a freeway on ramp though.... Damn kids!!

well... i said ALMOST half, because i was basing my knowledge off motor trends as tested model which says $39k. but screw the premium package, what is that anyway a stupid navi system for almost $5k. which i can go aftermarket and only pay $1k???


why pay a grand for a navigation system when you can get a map for like 5 bucks

why pay a grand for a navigation system when you can get a map for like 5 bucks

map... ha! i know where i am going. the reason i said that is because if you want to have a navi system in your car if you are that type of person. might as well go aftermarket a save 2-3k and, it does the same $hit!

why pay a grand for a navigation system when you can get a map for like 5 bucks

Hell, why spend $5 when you can stop at a gas station and ask for free?
Besides, maps block my view of the road and folks tend to get upset when I start swerving because i'm reading my map. ;)

Hell, why spend $5 when you can stop at a gas station and ask for free?
Besides, maps block my view of the road and folks tend to get upset when I start swerving because i'm reading my map. ;)



Why stop and ask for directions when I can use my Navi? It goes both ways. Navi is much more helpful than allot of maps can be. In hard to travel places such as New Orleans, I bet a navi system would be like gold. And like you said, if your driving and looking at a map and flipping out its pages then it is not the safest thing to do. At least a navi can be voice commanded and relatively uncomplicated to use while driving. If you really approach it in the long term, especially if you take road trips, then the navi will almost end up costing close to all the costs of multiple state maps and city maps for all the areas you will visit. Then add in the very large likelyhood of the maps getting misplaced and torn up or crap spilled all over them and it evens things out a little more. For the extra $995 I will take the safer and quicker system over a map which I will spill my coffee all over. hehe.

reminds me of an email I saw today...logic of why have something (HP) you won't use:

Marine Corps General Reinwald was interviewed on the radio the other day and you have to read his reply to the lady who interviewed him concerning guns and children. Regardless of how you feel about gun laws you gotta love this!!!!


This is one of the best comeback lines of all time. It is a portion of National Public Radio (NPR) interview between a female broadcaster and US Marine Corps General Reinwald who was sponsoring a Boy Scout Troop he brought to his military base.

FEMALE REPORTER: So, General Reinwald, what things are you going to teach these young boys while they're visiting your base?

GENERAL REINWALD: We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, and shooting.

FEMALE REPORTER: Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?

GENERAL REINWALD: Not at all, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range.

FEMALE REPORTER: Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?

GENERAL REINWALD: No. We are very safety conscious and will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm.

FEMALE REPORTER: But you're equipping them to become violent killers.

GENERAL REINWALD: Well, Ma'am, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?

The radio went silent and the interview ended.

You gotta love the Marines!

Good one.

reminds me of an email I saw today...logic of why have something (HP) you won't use:

Marine Corps General Reinwald was interviewed on the radio the other day and you have to read his reply to the lady who interviewed him concerning guns and children. Regardless of how you feel about gun laws you gotta love this!!!!


This is one of the best comeback lines of all time. It is a portion of National Public Radio (NPR) interview between a female broadcaster and US Marine Corps General Reinwald who was sponsoring a Boy Scout Troop he brought to his military base.

FEMALE REPORTER: So, General Reinwald, what things are you going to teach these young boys while they're visiting your base?

GENERAL REINWALD: We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, and shooting.

FEMALE REPORTER: Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?

GENERAL REINWALD: Not at all, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range.

FEMALE REPORTER: Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?

GENERAL REINWALD: No. We are very safety conscious and will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm.

FEMALE REPORTER: But you're equipping them to become violent killers.

GENERAL REINWALD: Well, Ma'am, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?

The radio went silent and the interview ended.

You gotta love the Marines!

Oh man beaups I love that post! Talk about backhanded serendipity!

sorry, guys, that email is old and proven to be untrue (check out snopes.com). Not that it makes it any less funny.

rocket - my comment was tongue-in-cheek. i have nothing against Nav systems and want one myself, as a matter of fact.

I dont understand all the emphasis on 0-60 times and horsepower ratings when deciding to buy a car. Unless it's some sh!tbox 4 cylinder then most all cars have plenty of power to do 99.9% of the driving you need.
Need, no. Want, yes.

This has to be a direct correlation to the number of a-hole drivers nowadays.
http://www.patmedia.net/schoolzone/wtf1.jpg
Now why did you have to go and say that? That was just thoughtless.
Everyone needs 300+ horsepower. Why?
Feels good, damn good.
Is there such a need to prove yourself to others by having a faster car?
So...why did you buy a Lincoln?
Its a total invasion but i'd love to see government standards of horsepower and top speed on cars.
You're right; that's pretty darn invasive.

I looked at plenty of cars before buying my LS, and some took about two seconds after sitting in them to decide i didnt want it, never even started the engine.
That just shows that you aren't all that concerned about the engine in an expensive car.

Correction, not "just" that.

Given the attitude of your post taken in its entirety, the previous statement also implies that your belief is: nobody else should be concerned about the engine in an expensive car either.
...its just a matter of what suits you best.
This is the only thing in your post that doesn't make you sound arrogant.
http://www.patmedia.net/schoolzone/FlameOn.jpg
Flame on...

Need, no. Want, yes.

http://www.patmedia.net/schoolzone/wtf1.jpg
Now why did you have to go and say that? That was just thoughtless.

Feels good, damn good.

So...why did you buy a Lincoln?

You're right; that's pretty darn invasive.

That just shows that you aren't all that concerned about the engine in an expensive car.

Correction, not "just" that.

Given the attitude of your post taken in its entirety, the previous statement also implies that your belief is: nobody else should be concerned about the engine in an expensive car either.

This is the only thing in your post that doesn't make you sound arrogant.
http://www.patmedia.net/schoolzone/FlameOn.jpg
Flame on...


ROCK ON!!! That guy is a total arrogant freak in every one of his posts! Fla02LS, lay off the Red Bull! Take a sedative or ten! :D



No problem Qbrozen, I didnt take it in a bad way. It just gave me a chance to flip the playing field over, so to speak.

NAh...i guess i've got alot more going in my life than to get a hard on over how much horsepower my car has. I mean, if you feel that because you can make it to a stoplight 1-2 seconds faster then you've proved something, then i'll be the one to tell ya you havent, your just annoying. And regardless of what you say, all you people getting defensive, YOU are the a-hole driver on the road that everyone hates. I have noticed that the younger kiddies nowadays are a bunch of p*ssies, and they use stuff like a car to make up for their inadequacies. I've never been one to prove sh!t with a car. Thats not being a man. But its ok. Go race someone and you'll feel all better. Go read this thread if you havent already.... http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?p=132040#post132040 . Your the mustang kind if guy arent you. Yep...you are. Something to prove.

NAh...i guess i've got alot more going in my life than to get a hard on over how much horsepower my car has.
This coming from a guy with nothing better to do than hop on a message board to insult people. Yeah, you've got a whole lot going on...:rolleyes:
your just annoying.
That's 'you're,' as in 'you're behavior has been no better than that of a 13 year old.'
And regardless of what you say, all you people getting defensive...
Gee, why's that? Could it be that it's because you call people who like fast cars @ssholes? Because you push the idea that anyone who owns a high performace vehicle must be an un-safe driver? Yeah, you've demonstrated some logical thought with those ideas...
YOU are the a-hole driver on the road that everyone hates.
That's great. Going by your logic, I could just as easily assume you're one of those people who likes to do 45 in the passing lanes, pissing off everyone who's behind him.

I'm starting to realize now, that for all the 'annoying' behavior you see in the younger croud, you could just as easily be as annoying to everyone else, as the young-uns are to you. You certainly are on this message board.

Riddle me this Batman: What kind of a person comes vehicle enthusiast site to start throwning insults at those who appreciate good power in a car?
Your the mustang kind if guy arent you.

It's You're!!

Actually, I own a Lincoln but yes, I like Mustangs too.
Yep...you are.
You know it!
Something to prove.
Whatever man...
http://www.patmedia.net/schoolzone/stfu8safe.jpg

Fla02LS your a troll if I ever did see one. All you do is whine about people doing this or that or whatever. Very rarely do I see you contribute anything of value (tech talk or questions) to threads. From what I have seen, your posts consist of 95% pissing and moaning and 5% somewhat useful jibber jabber. If you got a problem with people racing then when you see them, take them out of their cars anc kick their asses. Other than that just shut the heck up. It is quite apparent that no one wants to hear what you have to say. You preaching to the choir and then saying we are all idiots. Most of us probably have longer and better driving records than you do. I would also venture to say that allot of us, even those interested in fast cars, are very safety oriented. Go spew your stereotypes and epithets elsewhere as it will get your 3rd grade educated ass nowhere here. Now go and take a big bite of that for your Thanksgiving dinner... :D

I love that i piss you off. I love it. It just keeps me coming back, dont you see that. It kills me to think you actually spent time to read thru my posts, i'm glad to see that i must entertain you. I dont give a damn about you and could care less about your posts and theres nothing that would make me wanna search. I own a lincoln and read posts to gain info, i dont care to be the guy that has answers for everything, and i'm not here for approval, not here to make friends. I post my opinion when I see fit, thats a public forum, if you dont like it...too bad. And i'm sorry for the jibberjabber. I'll try to make sure to be the first one to throw in their "knowledge", seeing that just about every topic has been covered 200 times. As far as dragging people out of a car, would i love to...absolutely. But there's a law or two that pretty much keep me from doing that. I did make that mistake one time and luckily the other guy got back in his car and hauled ass away, turned out to be a smart decision. I initially found this site to find the fix for fogged up headlights. I never cared to make one post, But half the talk on here sounds like 8th grade bullsh!t about racing a Lincoln for crying out loud. School Zone guy...keep spell checking my posts, maybe i'll put you on payroll. Little punk kids.

I love that i piss you off. I love it. It just keeps me coming back, dont you see that. It kills me to think you actually spent time to read thru my posts, i'm glad to see that i must entertain you. I dont give a damn about you and could care less about your posts and theres nothing that would make me wanna search.

Your annoyance is comparable to that of a gnat flying around my head, nothing more. Though small, it still makes me want to squash you. You actually think I searched your posts? Its called the new posts button, I use it. This thread popped up and your bitching commenced.


I own a lincoln and read posts to gain info, i dont care to be the guy that has answers for everything, and i'm not here for approval, not here to make friends. I post my opinion when I see fit, thats a public forum, if you dont like it...too bad.

Having an opinion is fine, but you present yourself like an idiot all hopped up on hallucinagens and energy drinks. It is the way you voice it. It makes you sound like a total arrogant douchebag who just whines allot. If you dont care about how you look when voicing a valid point to others then you have more to learn about adult communication than originally thought. Bottom line is its called "tact". Which you should use, because it would help you get your point across in an allot less abrasive way.


And i'm sorry for the jibberjabber. I'll try to make sure to be the first one to throw in their "knowledge", seeing that just about every topic has been covered 200 times.

Its not a matter of just giving knowledge. It is a matter of keeping from appearing like a whining child when getting a point across.

As far as dragging people out of a car, would i love to...absolutely. But there's a law or two that pretty much keep me from doing that. I did make that mistake one time and luckily the other guy got back in his car and hauled ass away, turned out to be a smart decision.

Your reality is obviously skewed, I meant that part as a joke to shed light on the situation. Any person with a mentality above adolescent would have clue'd in on that. This really lets your true personality shine through even more, keep it coming. Only a total retard would actually take someone out of their car and try to beat them up for driving like an idiot. Why break one law while trying to enforce another? You sound like a hypocrite to me. I noticed it seems you seen that in retrospect, but some things we dont have to do to learn not to do them.

snip...half the talk on here sounds like 8th grade bullsh!t...snip

Did you bother to take notice that some of the "8th grade bullsh!t" your referring to might just be coming out of your own mouth?

keep spell checking my posts, maybe i'll put you on payroll.
Little punk kids.




Again, I hate bad drivers as much as the next person, but the way you present your case is bound to ruffle feathers. Do you really expect people to listen to you if your first posts are making them feel defensive? It really makes you look like a pompous, arrogant azz who is out trying to act like the messiah of traffic laws. You do have a valid point sometimes, but you make yourself appear to be a total moron with the way you present it.

Ok, this kind of banter is pointless, i am only posting one more time to this thread to explain something a little further then i'm out, you can have the last word. I consistantly go 5-10 mph over the speed limit, so i'm not a perfect law obiding person, but i keep with the flow of traffic. I have lots of law enforcement friends and there is a thing referred to as the "average flow of traffic". Simply put traffic will generally flow a little over the posted limit and about 98% of cops are cool with that. So i neither impede traffic or go flying by, so i dont consider myself a problem. But like i have stated i drive a ton of miles each week and experience horrible drivers on a daily basis. Now i'm a big boy and can hold my own, but when you have a family... a wife and a 3 yr old on the roads, those bad drivers do make you more pissed off than say if you were a 19 yr old kid. So i have more reason than most to get all worked up. Now, back to me being a big boy and getting out of my car once before, i was driving about 70-75 in a 65. A POS honda civic came flying up on me and was literally 6 inchs from my bumper at 75 mph. Now as opposed to most who would floor it to prove something, i slowed alittle just to piss him off more but still going the speed limit...65. That little sh!thead mexican kid got closer and closer and eventually BUMPED me from behind, TWICE. At that point i slowed to a complete stop and jumped out of my car, he opened his door but when he saw me he jumped back in, i tried to run around behind him to get his license number and he REVERSED into oncoming traffic to get away from me and almost hit me in the process. Now, i got out because he hit my car and i have every legal right to do exactly what i did and had he not drove away HE would have been in trouble, not me. So i'm not some bully grabbing at people, but that guy crossed the line from ahole to criminal behavior. So, again, with experiencing crap like that, i have a huge chip on my shoulder when it comes to ahole drivers. Maybe where you are from they are not as common, but around here there are ahole's EVERYWHERE. Thats all i have to say, no more posts to this thread for me. You may have the last word.