A Christian friend sent this to me. She's also the one that sends me all the Clinton bashing jokes.

Please explain to me why this is funny.

An atheist was taking a walk through the woods. "What majestic trees! What powerful rivers! What beautiful animals!" he said to himself.

As he continued walking alongside the river he heard a rustling in the bushes. Turning to look, he saw a 7 foot grizzly charging towards him. He ran as fast as he could up the path. Looking over his shoulder he saw that the bear was closing in on him. His heart was pumping frantically and he tried to run even faster. He tripped and fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw the bear raising his paw to take a swipe at him.

At that instant the atheist cried out: "Oh my God!..."

Time stopped.

The bear froze.

The forest was silent.

It was then that a bright light shone upon the man and a voice came out of the sky saying: "You deny my existence for all of these years, teach others I don't exist and even credit creation to a cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?"

The atheist looked directly into the light.

"It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps, could you make the BEAR a Christian?"

"Very well," said the voice. The light went out, and the sounds of the forest resumed.
And then the bear lowered his paw, bowed his head and spoke:

"Lord, bless this food which I am about to receive and for which I am truly thankful, Amen. "

LOL that was hilarious.

Why?

The joke partially illustrates the hardened heart of the stubborn atheist who, when CONFRONTED with God HIMSELF and unmistakeable evidence that his belief system has been dead wrong, still finds an excuse not to believe, yet still asks for assistance anyway.

Note that the action God takes by 'turning the bear into a Christian' is only a humorous interpretation of what someone else thinks God might do in that situation.

So God grants the request anyway, but not in the way the atheist wants Him to (and justly so, since the atheist effectively refused God's offer to join the ranks of Christians), which also illustrates the UNKNOWABLE characteristic of God, found in the Bible where He says "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

The humor is found in the irony that the bear still remains a bear through and through, but now has added to his characteristics an innate appreciation of God's provision for his food, and appropriately thanks God for it in accordance with the Lord's Prayer.

The parallel is interesting when you think about it. Christians are not automatically holy just because they have repented and accepted God's gift of salvation. Far from it. They are still human and imperfect through and through. But now they have a relationship with God, and can attempt to please Him by following His commands to become holy and seek a relationship with God.

Kinda funny... :)

Because of Irony...not religion.

The joke partially illustrates the hardened heart of the stubborn atheist who, when CONFRONTED with God HIMSELF and unmistakeable evidence that his belief system has been dead wrong, still finds an excuse not to believe, yet still asks for assistance anyway...
Well put!

I'm sorry, I still don't see the humor. Do you find it funny that God is portrayed as vengeful? Or would that be spiteful?

To the SchoolZone.... I don't think anyone has been 'Confronted with God'. At least I've never heard anyone say something along the lines of "God came down and spoke to me directly." At least not from a sane person.

I think it's funny cause the guy got *owned* . Not because I believe one way or the other.

Heck, I've heard funny jokes about leprechauns. Doesn't mean I'm gonna argue about pots of gold and rainbows...

To the SchoolZone.... I don't think anyone has been 'Confronted with God'. At least I've never heard anyone say something along the lines of "God came down and spoke to me directly." At least not from a sane person.

Wrong. There are lots of instances in the Bible where God spoke directly to people. That He doesn't speak directly to people these days is irrelevant.

Why is God vengeful? A bear has to eat. And maybe it had a few cubs to feed too.

Wrong. There are lots of instances in the Bible where God spoke directly to people. That He doesn't speak directly to people these days is irrelevant.

Yes, I know, I've read the Bible, I was speaking of modern times, not thousands of years ago. I don't see it as irrelevant.

I'm sorry, I still don't see the humor. Do you find it funny that God is portrayed as vengeful? Or would that be spiteful?

Barry, I've already pointed out the humor in this. I don't know how else to explain God to you.

Psalm 14:1 says, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. "

Hebrews 10:30 - "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. "

Romans 12:19 - "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. "

Ezekiel 25:17 - "And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them. "

Micah 5:15 - "And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard. "

Nahum 1:2 - "God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. "

Romans 3:5 - "But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) "

2 Thessalonians 1:8 - "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: "

Yes, I know, I've read the Bible, I was speaking of modern times, not thousands of years ago. I don't see it as irrelevant.

The reality is that each and every one of us will be confronted by God one day. At that time we must give an account of our individual lives to Him and stand in Judgment. Those who don't believe in that will be surprised and dismayed when it happens.

It won't be funny.

“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment” (Heb. 9:27)

Do you find it funny that God is portrayed as vengeful?
How is that being vengeful. Isn't every being inhabiting this earth a creature of God?

Or would that be spiteful?It would be spiteful if that person had never been offered a chance to make peace with God. It is spiteful that the atheist turns to God only in need.

How is that being vengeful. Isn't every being inhabiting this earth a creature of God?

It would be spiteful if that person had never been offered a chance to make peace with God. It is spiteful that the atheist turns to God only in need.

Nice addendum.

By the way, if you read the Bible, you will see that God has already made the first move to meet us more than halfway. It's our responsibility to meet Him on His terms, not the other way around. He doesn't have to answer to anyone or anything about His ways.

The reality is that each and every one of us will be confronted by God one day. At that time we must give an account of our individual lives to Him and stand in Judgment. Those who don't believe in that will be surprised and dismayed when it happens.

It won't be funny.

“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment” (Heb. 9:27)

You could be right, you could be wrong, no one will know for sure until we're dead.

Not to get off topic, but would like your opinion.

Take your average everyday atheist, lets say this 'guy' is a decent person, is helpful to people in need, doesn't break the law and in general a good person. He just doesn't believe in God and doesn't believe that you need to believe in God to be a good person.

Would this person upon death be sent to heaven or hell?

You could be right, you could be wrong, no one will know for sure until we're dead.

Not to get off topic, but would like your opinion.

Take your average everyday atheist, lets say this 'guy' is a decent person, is helpful to people in need, doesn't break the law and in general a good person. He just doesn't believe in God and doesn't believe that you need to believe in God to be a good person.

Would this person upon death be sent to heaven or hell?

I'll let the Bible answer that.

Romans 1:18-20 - "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: "

Isaiah 64:6 - " But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Romans 3:10 - "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one:"

Romans 3:23 - "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."


Revelation 20:11-15 - "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast."

Titus 3:5 - "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he saved us;"

I was hoping for your personal opinion... Once again, I have read the Bible... Unfortunately I found in inconclusive to this aspect.

I was hoping for your personal opinion... Once again, I have read the Bible... Unfortunately I found in inconclusive to this aspect.

Nothing personal, but if you found the above passages to be inconclusive, then you either don't believe the Bible, or you are in massive denial.

Nothing personal, but if you found the above passages to be inconclusive, then you either don't believe the Bible, or you are in massive denial.

I do not believe in the Bible as being an accurate account of God's doing, I don't think I ever said I did. The reason I found it to be inconclusive in this sense (the question I asked of you), if God is a kind and forgiving 'father figure' as portrayed, how could God condemn a good man to an eternity of punishment? Doesn't seem right that an evil man who has committed indescribable crimes could he let into Heaven if he repented and accepted God, but a good and just man would burn in hell if he didn't. I just can't see a kind, forgiving God doing so.

I do not believe in the Bible as being an accurate account of God's doing, I don't think I ever said I did. The reason I found it to be inconclusive in this sense (the question I asked of you), if God is a kind and forgiving 'father figure' as portrayed, how could God condemn a good man to an eternity of punishment?

You must have missed Isaiah 64:6, listed above.

What you call 'good' doesn't even begin to measure up to God's standards. What you just did was give a straw man example comparing one human to another. The logical flaw in your example is that you ignore the fact that God sees all of us as sinners and lawbreakers. For you to differentiate between one level of sin and another is not your place. We must atone for our own sins, and God's judgment MUST be satisfied before His love can be applied. Besides, God already showed "His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) He can't be a 'forgiving father figure' to people who aren't His children.

Hebrews 12:7-9 - "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"


Doesn't seem right that an evil man who has committed indescribable crimes could he let into Heaven if he repented and accepted God, but a good and just man would burn in hell if he didn't. I just can't see a kind, forgiving God doing so.

I can't help that you disagree with the Bible. That's between you and God. I don't need to tell you what I think in these matters. All I have to do is show you what God's word says. The rest is up to you.

Luke 23:39-43 - "And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Proverbs 14:12 - "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

I can't help that you disagree with the Bible. That's between you and God. I don't need to tell you what I think in these matters. All I have to do is show you what God's word says. The rest is up to you.

It's not disagreement, it's contradiction... Lets look at a couple of the 10 Commandments.

1)"I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..."
The belief in the existence of God, that God exists for all time, that God is the sole creator of all that exists, that God determines the course of events in this world. This is the foundation of Judaism. To turn from these beliefs is to deny God and the essence of Judaism. (end)

Seems to me like only one of Jewish faith can be one with God.

2)"You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
One is required to believe in God and God alone. This prohibits belief in or worship of any additional deities, gods, spirits or incarnations.To deny the uniqueness of God, is to deny all that is written in the Torah. (2)
It is also a prohibition against making or possessing objects that one or other may bow down to or serve such as crucifixes, and any forms of paintings or artistic representations of God. (3)
One must not bow down to or serve any being or object but God. (4)
One is prohibited from making sculpture of human beings even for the fine arts. (5) (end)

Um, I guess all those sculptures of Jesus & crucifixes found in churches is a BIG no no in God's eye.

It's not disagreement, it's contradiction... Lets look at a couple of the 10 Commandments.

1)"I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..."
The belief in the existence of God, that God exists for all time, that God is the sole creator of all that exists, that God determines the course of events in this world. This is the foundation of Judaism. To turn from these beliefs is to deny God and the essence of Judaism. (end)

Seems to me like only one of Jewish faith can be one with God.

2)"You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
One is required to believe in God and God alone. This prohibits belief in or worship of any additional deities, gods, spirits or incarnations.To deny the uniqueness of God, is to deny all that is written in the Torah. (2)
It is also a prohibition against making or possessing objects that one or other may bow down to or serve such as crucifixes, and any forms of paintings or artistic representations of God. (3)
One must not bow down to or serve any being or object but God. (4)
One is prohibited from making sculpture of human beings even for the fine arts. (5) (end)

Um, I guess all those sculptures of Jesus & crucifixes found in churches is a BIG no no in God's eye.

What's your point?

Point is the Bible is flawed. It was written by men, who are by virtue, flawed. Even though it was born of divine inspiration man can only understand his current world. Thus the whole "earth is the center of the universe" hooplah. As man's understanding of his world and his faith changes so too does his understanding of the Rules that God has set forth.

I'm not attacking anybody's faith here...just trying to understand myself. These are my thoughts.

Point is the Bible is flawed. It was written by men, who are by virtue, flawed. Even though it was born of divine inspiration man can only understand his current world. Thus the whole "earth is the center of the universe" hooplah. As man's understanding of his world and his faith changes so too does his understanding of the Rules that God has set forth.

I'm not attacking anybody's faith here...just trying to understand myself. These are my thoughts.

Can you please point out the flaws for me?

It is a dangerous thing to presume that God, who in the Old Testament promises that His Word is preserved forever, is somehow unable to preserve it. To say that the Bible is flawed is to treat it like any other book.

What most people do is pick and choose the parts that they like, and discard the parts of the Bible they don't like or that condemn their lifestyle. Then they say the rest is "subject to different interpretations." That's why you have so many versions of the Bible today: a continuing effort to water down and dilute the words so they don't hit as hard.

I don't expect an unbeliever to look at the Bible as a book of faith, but any professing Christian would have a problem defining where God messed up and needs correcting.

I still want to know why it'd be "good" to make the bear miss a meal?

Can you please point out the flaws for me?

It is a dangerous thing to presume that God, who in the Old Testament promises that His Word is preserved forever, is somehow unable to preserve it. To say that the Bible is flawed is to treat it like any other book.

What most people do is pick and choose the parts that they like, and discard the parts of the Bible they don't like or that condemn their lifestyle. Then they say the rest is "subject to different interpretations." That's why you have so many versions of the Bible today: a continuing effort to water down and dilute the words so they don't hit as hard.

I don't expect an unbeliever to look at the Bible as a book of faith, but any professing Christian would have a problem defining where God messed up and needs correcting.


I apologize...I wrote that poorly.

MAN's interpretation of the gospel is flawed.

Oh and don't take my comments as confrontational. I never argue faith...I am merely trying to understand it.

It's like a priest once told me: "Only those of questionable faith attempt to defend it to the unfaithful."

I still want to know why it'd be "good" to make the bear miss a meal?LOL. My point exactly. Why was the bear have to go without. It is in his nature to kill, and if you happen to be next on the menu, well...tough luck I guess.

What's your point?

The contradictions.... Can you not see for yourself? I and not questioning anyone’s faith, that would be impossible to do, but I can't see the reasoning in picking and choosing from the Bible when it suits you. Either you take it as a whole or you don't. Doing so lowers the Bible from a divine status to like you said, 'just another book.' In essence, one would be rewriting the Bible to suit their own needs.

Personally that’s my main concern with people that make their arguments and use the Bible to drive their point home.

I still want to know why it'd be "good" to make the bear miss a meal?


Lol, it was a joke, nothing more. You either though it was funny or you didn't, just like any other joke.

Point is the Bible is flawed. It was written by men, who are by virtue, flawed. Even though it was born of divine inspiration man can only understand his current world. Thus the whole "earth is the center of the universe" hooplah. As man's understanding of his world and his faith changes so too does his understanding of the Rules that God has set forth.

I'm not attacking anybody's faith here...just trying to understand myself. These are my thoughts.

Extremely impressive answer, you've given me plenty to ponder on.

Deville, I've read your "Commandments" post several times. I still don't understand what contradictions you are trying to point out. Much of what you've highlighted in bold is your own thoughts, mixed in with Scripture. The only thing I can see in that post is a contradiction between Scripture and what you think.

Please clarify so I can answer your question.

Deville, I've read your "Commandments" post several times. I still don't understand what contradictions you are trying to point out. Much of what you've highlighted in bold is your own thoughts, mixed in with Scripture. The only thing I can see in that post is a contradiction between Scripture and what you think.

Please clarify so I can answer your question.

Those were not my own words, those were taken (copy paste) online from the Old Testament. I have read the Bible, but I do not have photographic or encylcopedic knowledge of the Bible. I did not edit or write im my own words.

1)"I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..."
The belief in the existence of God, that God exists for all time, that God is the sole creator of all that exists, that God determines the course of events in this world. This is the foundation of Judaism. To turn from these beliefs is to deny God and the essence of Judaism. (end)

Seems to me like only one of Jewish faith can be one with God.

2)"You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
One is required to believe in God and God alone. This prohibits belief in or worship of any additional deities, gods, spirits or incarnations.To deny the uniqueness of God, is to deny all that is written in the Torah. (2)
It is also a prohibition against making or possessing objects that one or other may bow down to or serve such as crucifixes, and any forms of paintings or artistic representations of God. (3)
One must not bow down to or serve any being or object but God. (4)
One is prohibited from making sculpture of human beings even for the fine arts. (5) (end)



You're telling me that the above quote in its entirety is a verbatim direct quote from the Bible???

The Ten Commandments

Exodus 20

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 ¶ I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 ¶ Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 ¶ Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 ¶ Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:

10 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 ¶ Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13 ¶ Thou shalt not kill.

14 ¶ Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 ¶ Thou shalt not steal.

16 ¶ Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

17 ¶ Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

Ok... You've put the same thing down as I have, at least the first 2 Commandments.

Ok... You've put the same thing down as I have, at least the first 2 Commandments.

Right - minus your comments.

Now tell me what the contradiction is.

Right - minus your comments.

Now tell me what the contradiction is.

Those we're not my comments, I said that before, they were an interpretation of Old Testament. I told you I do not have encyclopedic knowledge of every word written. I must rely on going back to the source.

What I see as a contradiction between the Old and New Testament, you will say it's just a misinterpretation. But you have a solid point when you said that's the reason there are so many version's of the Bible now, I can't disagree with you there. I also see main stream religion evolving (dare I say) to better fit modern times.

I can say the worshipping Jesus as a God would defy the "no other God's before me" claus, but you will say Jesus and God are the same. Somehow different, but the same. So around and around we'd go because I have no viable way of proving Jesus was a man and not a God. Besides the fact that he was born from a woman and around we'd go again.

I'd rather not argue about a person's faith, because I don't know what anyone truly believes. It just gets my goat when people use the Bible to drive a point of view home, but disregard it when it conflicts with their views or actions. I've said that before.

Those we're not my comments, I said that before, they were an interpretation of Old Testament. I told you I do not have encyclopedic knowledge of every word written. I must rely on going back to the source.

What I see as a contradiction between the Old and New Testament, you will say it's just a misinterpretation. But you have a solid point when you said that's the reason there are so many version's of the Bible now, I can't disagree with you there. I also see main stream religion evolving (dare I say) to better fit modern times.

I can say the worshipping Jesus as a God would defy the "no other God's before me" claus, but you will say Jesus and God are the same. Somehow different, but the same. So around and around we'd go because I have no viable way of proving Jesus was a man and not a God. Besides the fact that he was born from a woman and around we'd go again.

I'd rather not argue about a person's faith, because I don't know what anyone truly believes. It just gets my goat when people use the Bible to drive a point of view home, but disregard it when it conflicts with their views or actions. I've said that before.


So are you saying that the contradiction is the Old Testament says worship God only and the New Testament says worship Jesus?

So are you saying that the contradiction is the Old Testament says worship God only and the New Testament says worship Jesus?


I never thought about it that way..... Brings up a question, maybe you can clarify for me.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Old Testament is the Torah correct? There's no mention of Jesus (as God) in it and people of Jewish faith do not hold Jesus as the messiah. (?)

So I ask you, if in the New Testament say's that the only way to heaven/salvation is believing in Jesus as your personal savior, how were people being 'saved' before Jesus was on the earth? At the most Jesus is (been around) 2000 years old, the oldest human civilization's (we could even go back further when we were small tribes living in caves) predate this by thousands of years, they even predate Judaism and the Old Testament.

The Torah is the Old Testament and obviously there is a conflict between the old and new. The Torah was written down several thousand years before Christ. The Old Testament doesn't recognize Christ as the Messiah as Jesus didn't exist, although a Messiah was always part of the lore. Talk about revisionist history! The Messiah has yet to come, in Jewish lore.

The dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest written (as opposed to carved) form of the Bible and there are discrepancies between those writings and what we know as the Torah today. There are translation errors between ancient Hebrew and the form that is the Torah as we know it. This gets back to a point I made on an earlier thread about the stories changing in the telling. How can the New Testament be the word of God if it is a revision of the Old Testament? How does that work?

I can kind of understand Divine inspiration but a "man" would have to do the documentation and "man" is flawed. That's probably why I have no faith.

There's a rhyme from my childhood:

Roses are reddish,
Violets are blueish,
If it wasn't for Jesus,
We'd all be Jewish.

Care to debate that?

That is an excellent question.

The Old Testament actually refers to Jesus many times, although not by that exact name. The Old Testament (old covenant) between God and Man was for man to offer God a sacrifice each year for his individual sins. That sacrifice was to be a blemish-free lamb which was to be burnt by the High Priest. Those who kept that law had their sins forgiven. The Israelites also had the prophets to proclaim the Word of God to them on a regular basis, and there are clear examples of forward-looking recognition that the Son of God was their salvation.*

It is noteworthy that the Jews ultimately rejected and even murdered the prophets for hundreds of years, which led to the nation of Israel's almost constant state of captivity as punishment by God. In fact, at the time that Jesus was born, Rome had conquered Israel and was ruling the country with a firm hand. The spiritual leaders of the nation were allowed to continue to practice their religion, however, and they (the Pharisees) had a certain level of status under Roman occupation. It was into this climate of unbelief and religious arrogance that Jesus was born. When he became an adult, he began his ministry in which he preached repentance and judgment, especially for the Pharisees. But the thing they really couldn't stomach was that he claimed to be the Messiah. This threatened to upset their little cabal, so they conspired to kill him by inciting a mob and trumping up false charges of blasphemy.

*The Bible says there is only one God, but He is manifest in three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ was God the Son.

The Bible says Jesus Christ is God. “Who says?” someone might ask. Following are some of those in the Bible who said that Jesus Christ is God.

DAVID CALLED HIM GOD
"Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?" (Matt. 22:42-45).

ISAIAH CALLED HIM GOD
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel" (Isaiah 7:14).
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6).

JEREMIAH CALLED HIM GOD
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Jeremiah 23:5-6).

MATTHEW CALLED HIM GOD
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us" (Matthew 1:23).

CHRIST CALLED HIMSELF GOD
"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:17-18).
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by" (John 8:58,59).
"I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:30-33).
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8).

THE ANGELS CALLED HIM GOD
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:11).

THE BLIND MAN CALLED HIM GOD
"Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him" (John 9:35-38).

THOMAS CALLED HIM GOD
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

PETER CALLED HIM GOD
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)" (Acts 10:34-36).

JOHN CALLED HIM GOD
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).
"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren" (1 John 3:16).
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 John 5:18).

PAUL CALLED HIM GOD
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood" (Acts 20:28).
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philippians 2:5-6).
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” (Col. 1:15-17).
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (1 Timothy 3:16).
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

GOD THE FATHER CALLED HIM GOD
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" (Hebrews 1:8-9).

Hebrews 1:8-9 is quoted from Psalm 45, and in Psalm 45 it is obvious that God the Father, Jehovah God, is speaking about the Son. God the Father calls the Son God, and God the Son calls the Father God. This is the mystery of the Trinity. Though we do not fully understand it, we believe it because it is the teaching of the Scriptures

The Torah is the Old Testament and obviously there is a conflict between the old and new. The Torah was written down several thousand years before Christ. The Old Testament doesn't recognize Christ as the Messiah as Jesus didn't exist, although a Messiah was always part of the lore. Talk about revisionist history! The Messiah has yet to come, in Jewish lore.

The dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest written (as opposed to carved) form of the Bible and there are discrepancies between those writings and what we know as the Torah today. There are translation errors between ancient Hebrew and the form that is the Torah as we know it. This gets back to a point I made on an earlier thread about the stories changing in the telling. How can the New Testament be the word of God if it is a revision of the Old Testament? How does that work?

I can kind of understand Divine inspiration but a "man" would have to do the documentation and "man" is flawed. That's probably why I have no faith.

There's a rhyme from my childhood:

Roses are reddish,
Violets are blueish,
If it wasn't for Jesus,
We'd all be Jewish.

Care to debate that?

Sure. Bear in mind that I'm not one of those haters that calls Jews 'Christ Killers.'

One by one:

The New Testament isn't a revision of the Old Testament. They are totally different sets of Scripture. The New Testament is just that - a collection of the books that tell of the NEW Covenant between God and Man, which, thanks to the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ, does away with the Old Covenant. The book of Hebrews is masterful in explaining how Jesus, who lived a perfect life, was able to be the perfect sacrifice so that there is now no more need to offer up burnt sacrifices for sins. But I digress. There is no conflict between the Old and New Testaments, only conflict between men and the Bible. In fact, the New Testament faithfully quotes the Old Testament in many places and perfectly upholds its veracity.

The New Testament is legitimate because it was faithfully copied and passed down from generation to generation, and was canonized (accepted) by the early church as part of the Bible. The Jews don't accept it because it manifests Jesus as the Messiah, despite the fact that it fulfills Old Testament prophecy down to the letter about his coming.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest existing manuscripts available, but that does not automatically render them authentic.
Your opinion of the Dead Sea Scrolls is right. The Dead Sea Scrolls do in fact disagree with the Masoretic text of the Old Testament, but that's largely due to the fact that they are more in agreement with the Septuagint, which is the Old Testament that was translated into Greek in around 300-200 B.C. The problem with the Septuagint (and the Dead Sea Scrolls) is that it is filled with flaws and errors, not just informationally, but translationally and grammatically.

The key here is to understand how the Bible was preserved. The old manuscripts were read so much that they wore out, and had to be copied.
It was copied over and over and carried from church to church, from town to town. Back then people really knew the Bible, and mistakes were rejected by the church. In fact, my first thought about any discoveries of old manuscripts would be to question their accuracy, since if they were preserved for so long (like the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus manuscripts), they probably weren't read very much because they weren't that good.

I understand where you're coming from about Divine Inspiration and faith. It is hard to understand HOW God could have preserved His Word, and it takes faith to do so. I don't expect anyone who is not a believer to have faith, but if that person only had a little bit of faith, it would go a long way to opening up the gates of understanding.