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Goin Insane! help

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Posted by: NiteInDFW

heres the story. wife left the lights on in my 87LSC battery is dead so I got a new one.
now with a new battery the car will not start. it does turn over just fine and I have almost run the new battery down trying to start it. any advice would be great. car has a 5.0HO was running fine prior to this. I mean the most reliable car I have ever owned!! on a side note nice site you guys have here.

Posted by: Lincolnlov

NITE,
Firrst thing I'd do is check to see if I have spark. If not, there could be a distributor/coil issue. Lincolnlov.

Posted by: NiteInDFW

updates:

ok wow man I have been run through the gambit!
replaced the coil and cap. car still would not start foot accidently hit something on the fuse panel and bam she comes alive! ok so safe to assume shes ready to rock like before right? wrong later in the day we are out running errands (enjoying the cold ford air) and the brake light comes on with a very squishy pedal. then it dies and barely takes a jump get it started where I went to leave and it spit then died. tow'ed home and now sitting outside. this is one of the most reliable cars I have ever owned but I cannot see sinking a untold amount of cash into it. she has over 230K maybe its time to go? needless to say its a sad day in my household!

if any of you are local to Dallas/Fort Worth use my buds over at Patriot he knew about the suspension switch and was pretty cheap on the tow.

Posted by: OldSchool1

Welcome.
230K is a lot to have on the clock so the car has done WONDERS for you and you have done WONDERS for it.

Have you replaced the ignition switch in the sterring colomn? They tend to cause the problems that you mentined.

Posted by: NiteInDFW

I just replace the igniton switch not long ago. the old one just came apart one day when I started it. it has the "security" hex on it that was hard to find. that part is only 10 bucks so replacing it would not be that bad only thing is I just did that like 3 months ago.

Posted by: OldSchool1

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiteInDFW

I just replace the igniton switch not long ago. the old one just came apart one day when I started it. it has the "security" hex on it that was hard to find. that part is only 10 bucks so replacing it would not be that bad only thing is I just did that like 3 months ago.

Look at it again. It wouldn't be the first one to die after six months or use. Next, starting at the battery and ending at the starter, clean clean clean every positive connetion. Then locate your two engine block grounds and clean clean clean them too.

I must be tired ... starting to sound like Dr Seuss.

I do not like it when I stall.
I do not like low voltage at all.
I can not drive it here or there.
I can not drive it anywhere!

Posted by: Scott Adams

I had to replace both the key switch and the solid state switch module mounted on the column after the key switch. That module literally did a melt down.

Posted by: OldSchool1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Adams

I had to replace both the key switch and the solid state switch module mounted on the column after the key switch. That module literally did a melt down.

WOWOW!

That melt down is EXACTLY why we change them out! Man Oh Man Oh Man, I am SO glad you got things changed before ... well, you can imaginge what ~could~ have happened next.

Makes me want to change all of mine just by reading that.

Posted by: OldSchool1

OK.
Since we're throwing parts at the car, the next item up for bids would be your voltage regulator AND alternator at the same time.

The correct thing would be to put a voltage meter throughout the system or on your fuses to see what is drawing what from the battery with the key off.

Posted by: big_tymer

hey guys iam haveing a similer problem but little diffrent i think mine is the fuel pump cuz some times she starts some time nothing? its so f in weird ill try to start it and nothing 20 min later it will start think its a fuel pump prob or may b a relay? lil help would b nice=)

Posted by: OldSchool1

Quote:

Originally Posted by big_tymer

hey guys iam haveing a similer problem but little diffrent i think mine is the fuel pump cuz some times she starts some time nothing? its so f in weird ill try to start it and nothing 20 min later it will start think its a fuel pump prob or may b a relay? lil help would b nice=)

hehehehe
I just answered your question in the other thread

Posted by: brentalan

Lots of posts tonight OS!

Posted by: griffin31670

hey I have had this problem before and took me awhile to figure it out but it was the starter ??? the bolts had viberated loose and every now and then it would just have a hissy fit and shut down on me then 5 minutes later it would start and run like no tommorow. go figure huh?

Posted by: cruzah

I just joined the website and its a mighty fine website if i must say...I'm having just about the same problem with my 1990 LS.
i put a new battery in and i think the anti theft came on now it woun't start and all my lights are on...anybody think they can help

Posted by: OldSchool1

Quote:

Originally Posted by brentalan

Lots of posts tonight OS!

*hiJack*

Yeah.
I leave LVC for like three days and every new Mark VII owner logs in and asks 14 questions. I GOTTA get my FAQ page online.

*hijack over*

Posted by: OldSchool1

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruzah

I just joined the website and its a mighty fine website if i must say...I'm having just about the same problem with my 1990 LS.
i put a new battery in and i think the anti theft came on now it woun't start and all my lights are on...anybody think they can help

Define anti-theft.
Are you talking about the factory installed system or an aftermarket system?

Posted by: 1986_MarkVII

Similar problem to the insane guy, except I have already lost it.

I have 1986 Mark VII that has now eaten four brand new batteries since July 19, and has cost me nearly $1,000 in towing costs. One time, the $#@%^ car die while zooming on the freeway at 65 mph. It turned out to be a loose ignition switch. Fixed that but the dead battery thing persists and now no one will replace the batteries for free.

With each battery, the time before death gets shorter. This last battery, a Sears Die Hard, gave up without much fight within two days.

Here's the kicker. The battery drains to .001 or less voltage and it will not recharge. I take back to the store and they say it must be defective because they can't get it to recharge either and then they give me new one.

I've checked the alternator and it is operating at 14 volts, so that is not the problem. I make sure everything is off before I lock up at night, but sure enough, in the morning deader than a door nail.

Battery cables and grounds are clean and fairly new.

Posted by: OldSchool1

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1986_MarkVII

Similar problem to the insane guy, except I have already lost it.

...

Dear Already Lost It,
Our alternators and voltage regulators work like hand in hand. When you replace one you MUST replace the other.

Other than that, finding the battery drain is a matter of finding which circut is pulling the juice over night. Finding which circut is a matter of testing cuircuts at the fuses (or the broke Dude way of pulling fuses one at a time).

I forgot to mention that if you have like major cuts into the wiring that this conversation is like moot because our cars don't like that very much and diagnosing aftermarket wiring is a Mensa entrance proceedure.

Posted by: fordtechguru

hmmm, good one, sounds frustrating, try this... batteries that die like you've said usually are shorted or excessive key off drain. alternators can charge at spec. voltage but still drain or emit a/c voltage (battery killer). grab a dvom and check for a drain. first clue it's bad is if you remove the pos. cable (key off) and big blue spark. but start by trying to remove the charge lead off the back of the alternator, if the draw stops, your in luck. then chase fuses like someone already mentioned. try that and give any additional details you think of. p.s.... please don't tell me you have a 1000 watt amp in the trunk after all this.....lol

Posted by: 1986_MarkVII

My brother was here all afternoon with me trouble shooting and this is what we did and still did not detect the electrical drain.

We used the battery from my other car and put it in the Battery Slayer, aka Lincoln Mark VII, to run a diagnosis.

With power off and negative cable off, the car drains 13.8 volts.

We checked the battery ground, and nothing.

Using ohm meter on batter cables, we pulled each fuse. Nothing. We then pulled each fuse and used the meter in each slot to detect a problem and nothing.

Yesterday, I replaced the ignition switch in the steering column. This morning I replaced the two relay modules on the firewall in the engine area.

Each time I installed a new battery, when we touched the negative cable to the negative battery post, major sparks and the relays begin buzzing, so I replaced those thinking they were the drain. No.

Last resort, we thought maybe there is correlation between the sudden battery slayings and dealership installed blower motor, which lasted one month before it stopped working. This was in August and precipitated the battery slayings.

We went behind the glove box and unplugged the blower motor. Nothing. The car is still draining 13 volts. There are no signs in the engine or vehicle that the wires have been spliced or diced.

As of today, I've now eaten five batteries since having the blower motor installed. I'm so discouraged, I cried uncle an hour ago and declared the Lincoln Mark VII a lost cause.

Posted by: fordtechguru

wow what a mess.. by drains 13.8 are you reading voltage??? trying amperage between the positive cable and the batt term. wil give you an idea of the size of the draw, which should lead you to a circuit capable of drawing that current without frying. if you show 25a then a smaller circuit would blow fuses or melt wiring, thus go for large circuits.. did you pull the charge lead from the alternator?? or is the case warm (indicating a short)?? since no fuses were blown and pulling them didn't stop the drain, look for non-fused circuits, i.e. starter cable, alternator charge lead, harness to ign.switch, etc... caution, when checking amperage most dvom's fuse is 20a max, a short buzzer will help with larger shorts safely, you can get one off a tool truck or maybe a buddy, when you disconnect the short circuit, it shuts up.. don't give up... also a current meter can be a lifesaver, looks like a compass, get close to the short and she swings towards the short, get over it and it dithers, go past it and it swings the other way, just follow the needle... i'll shut up now, just hate to see the car win.. lol

Posted by: 1986_MarkVII

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordtechguru

wow what a mess.. by drains 13.8 are you reading voltage??? trying amperage between the positive cable and the batt term. wil give you an idea of the size of the draw, which should lead you to a circuit capable of drawing that current without frying. if you show 25a then a smaller circuit would blow fuses or melt wiring, thus go for large circuits.. did you pull the charge lead from the alternator?? or is the case warm (indicating a short)?? since no fuses were blown and pulling them didn't stop the drain, look for non-fused circuits, i.e. starter cable, alternator charge lead, harness to ign.switch, etc... caution, when checking amperage most dvom's fuse is 20a max, a short buzzer will help with larger shorts safely, you can get one off a tool truck or maybe a buddy, when you disconnect the short circuit, it shuts up.. don't give up... also a current meter can be a lifesaver, looks like a compass, get close to the short and she swings towards the short, get over it and it dithers, go past it and it swings the other way, just follow the needle... i'll shut up now, just hate to see the car win.. lol

Bear with me, I'm new to the electrical aspect of the car thing. I have an electronic ohm meter which I set the dial to 20 as I was told by the guy at Auto Zone. The meter has an LED monitor that displays digitial numbers.

My brother placed the red and black lines from the meter somewhere on the alternator while the car was runing and the ohm stated 13

Posted by: OldSchool1

From: http://www.lscclub.org/tech/battery.htm

My battery at rest:

My battery with the engine running:

My battery with the engine running an the negative cable disconnected:

Posted by: fordtechguru

so far, so good... set voltmeter to a/c volts and test with engine running... across batt. terms. like before (one click counterclockwise from pictured,(sorry to be condesending,no intent)) see how much voltage it reads should be less than like 100-125mv, or, take it to autozone and have it checked for "ripple".. (same difference) excess ripple or a/c leakage will kill your batt. quickly and cause a barrage of other concerns. lol keep posting..

Posted by: 1986_MarkVII

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordtechguru

so far, so good... set voltmeter to a/c volts and test with engine running... across batt. terms. like before (one click counterclockwise from pictured, (sorry to be condesending, no intent) see how much voltage it reads should be less than like 100-125mv, or, take it to autozone and have it checked for "ripple".. (same difference) excess ripple or a/c leakage will kill your batt. quickly and cause a barrage of other concerns. lol keep posting..

I don't consider you condescending and I truly appreciate you taking the time to walk me through this process. I'm so frustrated and discouraged I'm just about at the point of no return.

It's 9 p.m. and I am now five consecutive days of burning the late night oil trouble shooting my Lincoln after working 10 hours days in a job that is essentiallly playing beat the clock, so, you can imagine my burnout level.

Not sure what the ripple or a/c leakage means, but here is what I did.

My meter looks like yours. I had it turned counterclockwise to the 20 slot.

My uncle came over tonight and helped me take the alternator out and then we went to Kragen, which is open at this hour and offers to do an electrical test on alternators. The Kragen man said mine is perfectly normal reading at 14 something.

My uncle then recommended that I let go and pull the life support on the Lincoln and just focus on my 4CV.

If it weren't for the fact that when the Lincoln is operating, it is an excellent car with a powerful motor, smooth ride, and I like the body design.

P.S. Your Lincoln is impressive. I like the blue paint and clean engine area. I hope mine looks that good someday. I've been eyeing the Dark Montana Blue paint chip for my color. Good thing I didn't post pictures of my baby or innerds. She'd feel like the bastard kid at the family reunion.

Posted by: OldSchool1

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1986_MarkVII

...
My uncle then recommended that I let go and pull the life support on the Lincoln and just focus on my 4CV.
...

ARRRGGHH! Why did you have to be on the LEFT COAST? There are like a DOZEN people in EST that would not only hook you up to a code reader for free but let you buy the parts and WE'D stick em in for ya!

Common draws of current in Mark VIIs:
interior lights
*glove box light
*under seat lights
*under dash lights
*vanity mirrors
*rear seat cortesy lights (switches down = off)
non functioning accesories
*windshield wiper motor burned out/shorted
*trunk pull down motor burned out/shorted
*windshield washer motor motor burned out/shorted
*door lock solenoids
*window motors burned out/shorted
*seat motors burned out/shorted
exterior lights and their switches
brake boost motor (not sure if you have this in 1986)
AIR RIDE COMPRESSOR RUNNING (shut off the switch in the trunk, driver's side wall)
aftermarket radios (spliced wires makes all of this moot)
aftermarket alarm systems (spliced wires makes all of this moot)
aftermarket HID fog lights (you get the picture)
coins stuck in one of the three cigarette lighters (thanks NYC LSC)
BAD KEY CYLINDER IGNITION SWITCH (not ingition switch)

If I missed anything, will ANYBODY please speak up. This car should NOT get trashed/sold/scrapped/put out to pasture over a simple draw.

John "The-Solution-Is-Right-There" Dancy