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cruel and unusual

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Posted by: mach8

Despite the merits of the case does a judge really have the authority to condem someone to die by dehydration and starvation?
Even serial killers, child rapist/killers, and the like are killed by the government in a manner that is as painless as possible.
Why is Terri Schiavo being killed by the ACLU, liberal courts, and the Culture of Death like a dog left by the side of the road after being hit by a car?
Anyone familiar with the circumstances can tell something fishy is going on here, but if everyone wants to stand back and kill this woman couldn't they find a humane way to do her in, or do they feel that would make them responsible for her death, more than refusing her food? We treat terrorist better than this! This could happen to YOU!, your wife, your child. It's not just a news story, you should be concerned that society is taking this road.

Posted by: Bob Hubbard

I have to agree with you.
Pulling the feeding tube is no different than giving her a lethal injection.
The person removing the tube is just as guilty of commiting murder as if he or she had shot her.
The only difference here is that it is taking longer for her to sucumb.
This is disgraceful and very scary.
I do applaud the congress, President Bush and, Governor Bush.
They did what they could.
The judicial system in this country needs a major overhall.
Some where along the way, someone dropped the ball.
If there was the slightest doubt as to her condition, the tubes should have been re-inserted until further studies could be made.
I am sick over this and I hope when the time comes, her husband suffers three times fold for the suffering he has put his wife, and this nation through.
He deserves the worst of the worst.
I heard on the news yesterday that someone put out a contract on him and the judge in Florida who kept denying the appeals.

Posted by: Marine

I agree with most of that, except that the husband is guilty of nothing. He's been put in a bad spot, as has her parents. I feel bad that these poor people have been forced to make this decision, and that all this has had to happen Please, get a living will so that this doesnt happen to you or the ones you love.

It's terrible that she has to be starved to death, serial killers get a more humane death than that. The whole situation is heartbreaking.

Posted by: evillally

Posted by: MonsterMark

This case says it all when it comes to just vs unjust, left vs right, liberal vs conservative, Republican vs Democrat. This is a great litmus test to see where you stand politically. The left and the libs side with the viewpoint that a human being should be starved to death. Death by dehydration is one of the most cruel ways to die. The fact that people are willing to sit and let that happen says it all as far as I am concerned.

If you did this to a cat or dog, they'd put you in jail. How's that for hypocrisy?

Posted by: barry2952

On a personal level Bryan. I recall that you said your grandmother was a terminal patient. You said that you watched her decline. Wouldn't it have been kinder to let her go naturally rather than keep the embers alive through artificial means?

Posted by: MonsterMark

No artificial means were used to keep her alive longer than nature intended. My wife is an ICU nurse and she deals with death daily. People wear bracelets that say "NO CODE", which means if their heart fails, they should not be resussitated. The family members come in and demand that everything be done to keep them alive. 85, 90 year old people. I think that is wrong. In our family's instance, we agreed that we would let nature take its course. It was intense to see her fight for every last breath. Heart wrenching. She was a fighter all her life, right to the very end. All we did was give her some meds to ease her pain. That's it. We didn't nor would we starve her to end her life prematurely. Schaivo can breath on her own, she just can't eat. This is a different situation. If the will of the people and courts intent is to see her die, there are so many more compassionate ways of doing it.

I really want to see her pop out of it. At the last second, to just snap out of it and then people would freak. I know that won't happen but it would sure be great. Just give her an overdose of morphine and be done with it. Why the agony? Dehydration causes intense pain. Why is that necessary?

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry2952

On a personal level Bryan. I recall that you said your grandmother was a terminal patient. You said that you watched her decline. Wouldn't it have been kinder to let her go naturally rather than keep the embers alive through artificial means?

Posted by: barry2952

Bryan,

The "agony" as you put it doesn't exist as she has no higher brain functions. I've seen her x-rays and there is nothing but spinal fluid where there is supposed to be brain matter. How can she feel pain? Ask your wife about this, please.

If Florida were not so conservative they would have an assisted suicide law like Oregon. If they were to overdose her with Morphine at this stage the doctor would be guilty of murder under Florida law. What's wrong with this picture?

I'm not bashing conservatives like Jeb but you have to acknowledge that you would want your wife making this decision instead of some politician looking for brownie points, right?

Posted by: JohnnyBz00LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

No artificial means were used to keep her alive longer than nature intended. .............. We didn't nor would we starve her to end her life prematurely. Schaivo can breath on her own, she just can't eat. This is a different situation.

In case you don't know, a feeding tube IS "artificial means", no different than an artificial resperator. If GOD had intended for us to be fed by a tube, he/she would've provided a natural connection to our stomachs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

......, there are so many more compassionate ways of doing it.

I agree here, however they are illegal. And I'd have a hard time arguing that this would NOT be overstepping the bounds of letting nature take it's course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

Why the agony? Dehydration causes intense pain. Why is that necessary?

Terri is NOT feeling any pain, starvation & dehydration does NOT cause pain, even if she was concious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard

Pulling the feeding tube is no different than giving her a lethal injection.
The person removing the tube is just as guilty of commiting murder as if he or she had shot her.
The only difference here is that it is taking longer for her to sucumb.

You are SO wrong on this Bob. See above comments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard

I do applaud the congress, President Bush and, Governor Bush.
They did what they could.

Those clowns, along w/ Frist and DeLay, are now exposed for what they truly are. A bunch of hypocritical oppertunists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard

If there was the slightest doubt as to her condition, the tubes should have been re-inserted until further studies could be made.

Dude, 15 years has transpired, NUMEROUS doctors have been reviewing this case for well over a DECADE and they ALL conclude the SAME thing (except of course the un-informed Mr. Frist). This case has been examined, re-examined, appealed, re-appealed more times than it deserved. There is NO doubt amonst the doctors and judges directly involved w/ Terri about her condition or her abilities to recover from this. The ONLY doubt is in the minds of those who think they can benefit politically from stirring this pot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard

I am sick over this and I hope when the time comes, her husband suffers three times fold for the suffering he has put his wife, and this nation through.
He deserves the worst of the worst.
I heard on the news yesterday that someone put out a contract on him and the judge in Florida who kept denying the appeals.

So when did 2 WRONGS begin to make a RIGHT? If you and all the other naysayers who are convinced that Michael Shaivao is so EVIL and is doing the devil's work, he'll get his come-uppance when he approaches the pearly gates. That is between HIM and GOD. WHO the F**K are YOU or anyone else to play GOD's JUDGE?? The people to blame for elevating this case to the front page and "putting this nation through pain" is Terri's parents and the above named politicians who don't know when to butt out of this MARRIED COUPLE's lives! To borrow a recent, tired pharase, I have only this to say to you, the Shindlers and all their supporters: YOU LOST, GET OVER IT!

Posted by: MonsterMark

Hey Johnny...

I heard the other day someone make a great point in regards to this case. Most on the left are of the opinion that because she is on a feeding tube, she should be killed because she couldn't feed herself. Humm, OK. As I recall, Christopher Reeves also could not feed himself. I guess we should have 'offed' him sooner too.

Posted by: MonsterMark

A conscious [cognitively disabled] person would feel it just as you or I would. They will go into seizures. Their skin cracks, their tongue cracks, their lips crack. They may have nosebleeds because of the drying of the mucus membranes, and heaving and vomiting might ensue because of the drying out of the stomach lining. They feel the pangs of hunger and thirst. Imagine going one day without a glass of water! Death by dehydration takes ten to fourteen days. It is an extremely agonizing death.

After seven to nine days [from commencing dehydration] they begin to lose all fluids in the body, a lot of fluids in the body. And their blood pressure starts to go down. When their blood pressure goes down, their heart rate goes up. . . . Their respiration may increase and then . . . the blood is shunted to the central part of the body from the periphery of the body. So, that usually two to three days prior to death, sometimes four days, the hands and the feet become extremely cold. They become mottled. That is you look at the hands and they have a bluish appearance. And the mouth dries a great deal, and the eyes dry a great deal and other parts of the body become mottled. And that is because the blood is now so low in the system it's shunted to the heart and other visceral organs and away from the periphery of the body . .

Just a couple excerpts on dying from dehydration.

Posted by: barry2952

What do you recommend Bryan? Starvation and deydration is legal. Morphine overdose is not. That's Florida law.

What would you want for yourself or your loved ones in this situation?

Would you want your parents or your wife making the final decision?

Posted by: JohnnyBz00LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

Hey Johnny...

I heard the other day someone make a great point in regards to this case. Most on the left are of the opinion that because she is on a feeding tube, she should be killed because she couldn't feed herself. Humm, OK. As I recall, Christopher Reeves also could not feed himself. I guess we should have 'offed' him sooner too.

Hey Bryan....

I heard the other day someone make a great point in regards to this case. Most on the right are of the opinion that she should be continued to be tortured and denied meeting her maker by being kept alive because she is in a persistant vegitative state and can't complain, and thus those on the right can claim plausable deniability: "It our word against a vegitable."

Only a MORON would believe or buy into your "most on the left" argument above, in fact NO ONE on the left has even remotely suggested such a moronic thing. APPLES and ORANGES! Reeves had a functioning brain right up until death. And what is your source of info on the "dehydration" effects, you make that up too? Keep on grasping...... I'm reloading......

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry2952

What do you recommend Bryan? Starvation and deydration is legal. Morphine overdose is not. That's Florida law.

I find it very peculiar that she was not supposed to feel any pain, in fact, she was unable to feel any pain, and now comes the morphine trick. I had to laugh when they said they were going to administer the morphine to speed up the process.

My opinion. If the parents want to love and care for their daughter and they have the means to pay the hospice care, they should be allowed to.

I have heard enough about this guy to not like him. He has been offered over $5,000,000 in cash to just go away. At one point, it was all about the money. I understand the Schaivos received a large settlement and he spent most of the money on himself and not on her care. Enough said. She's past the point of no return anyway.

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS

And what is your source of info on the "dehydration" effects, you make that up too?

Source...St. Louis neurologist William Burke.

Posted by: FreeFaller

Only those who have never seen the dead think that it makes any difference how they got there.

If it were me I would quit pussyfooting around and kill her quickly and painlessly. Call me mean, heartless or cold but I would have made my decision and resolved it quickly.

If I truly loved my wife I would fulfill her wishes despite any punishment that might befall me. A final act of love. Damn everyone else and their many "rightous" beliefs. I only hope that my wife would do the same.

Both sides of this family should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Especially the husband who says he is fulfilling his wife's wishes but does not have the balls to just do it.

Posted by: MonsterMark

I actually agree Steve.You can kill her by starving her but not kill her more humanely. Interesting, isn't it?

Posted by: FreeFaller

Of course it all depends on what the definition of "humane" is. I always though it meant to involve minimal pain (mental and physical).

So what pain are we talking about here. The physical pain of slowly dying which can be felt (if not comprehended) at a cellular level. Or the mental pain of being in a vegatative state.

But then again people starve to death every day all over the world...how come all the sudden people give a crap about this girl. That's right...cause it was on the news today. Anybody talking about Iraq today...no...not the story of the day...aaarrrghhh. Most people can barely take care of the plants in their house let alone their families. But all the sudden they feel like they know what's best for this woman. Almost funny...

Posted by: MonsterMark

What's funny is the side that 'claims' to be for the little guy and peole that can't help themselves are the very ones taking away her rights precisely because she can't defend herself. So you're right. It is funny.

Posted by: MrWilson

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS

I believe we call that a belly button

Posted by: FreeFaller

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWilson

I believe we call that a belly button

I don't care which side of the equation your'e on...that's a good comeback...

Posted by: barry2952

There you go again Bryan, shooting off your big mouth without knowing the facts.

There was a $1,000,000 malpractice settlement. $700,000 went into trust for her continued care. $300,000 went to him for loss of companionship.

The $700,000 was spent early on for her care. When that money was gone Medicare took over her health care costs.

Out of his $300,000 he spent a large portion on some experimental therapy that implanted electrodes in her brain. As it was experimental, Medicare wouldn't pay for it so he did. He still has about $40,000 from his settlement.

Dont you feel like an a$$hole now?

Posted by: JohnnyBz00LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWilson

I believe we call that a belly button

Shows how much you know......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbilical_cord

The "belly button" is what remains of the umbilical cord, and does NOT connect to the stomach. Even IF medical technology were able to re-use whats left of the umbilical cord to provide nutrition, it would still be considered artificial life support. God's intended purpose of the umbilical cord ends at birth. Nice try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreeFaller

But then again people starve to death every day all over the world...how come all the sudden people give a crap about this girl. That's right...cause it was on the news today. Anybody talking about Iraq today...no...not the story of the day...aaarrrghhh. Most people can barely take care of the plants in their house let alone their families. But all the sudden they feel like they know what's best for this woman. Almost funny...

Yep, quite sad, almost funny, very hypocritical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

What's funny is the side that 'claims' to be for the little guy and peole that can't help themselves are the very ones taking away her rights precisely because she can't defend herself. So you're right. It is funny.

You are obviously referring to the GOP side. For it is precisely them who are interferring with HER right to die, her husband is only DEFENDING her rights, and he has gotten confirmation from the courts every step of the way. In FACT, if you'd pull your head out, do your HOMEWORK and read up on the FACTS of this case instead of listening to the "he-said, she-said" CRAP, you'd find that it was NOT her husband who made the final decision to remove her feeding tube, it was the COURTS. How can anyone possibly blame Michael Schaivo for obeying the law and suggest that he break the law by taking her life into his own hands?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

My opinion. If the parents want to love and care for their daughter and they have the means to pay the hospice care, they should be allowed to.

Allowed to do WHAT? Violate the LAW? Violate their daughter's wishes and right to die under these circumstances? Violating the sanctitiy of marriage between Terri and Michael? Allow them to DENY their daughter from ending her suffering and meeting her maker? WTF planet are you from?? HOW can you possibly call yourself a christian?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

I have heard enough about this guy to not like him. He has been offered over $5,000,000 in cash to just go away. At one point, it was all about the money. I understand the Schaivos received a large settlement and he spent most of the money on himself and not on her care. Enough said. She's past the point of no return anyway.

And he turned those cash offers down. THAT takes GUTS and COMMITMENT to his WIFE. And your knocking him for THAT?? Walking away would've been the EASY thing for him to do. Again, WTF planet are you from?? That settlement WAS spent on her care, and was at the core of the fall-out between the Schaivos and the Schindlers, and if it hadn't been for her parent's fighting this since '98, there'd probably be some of that left from the legal battles to fight over. But it's gone now, thanks to the Schindlers.

Posted by: straps

Here's my 2 cents worth:
First, if everyone had kept their noses out of this family's business, including her parents, and let her husband( and legal guardiian) deal with this tragic situation
15 years ago, this poor woman would not be put through this travesty now. What a disgrace.
Second, God forbid that I would be in this situation, I would rather have my wife make the decisions about my welfare, regardless of how people perceive her intentions , rather than a political whore like Jeb Bush who only cares about this poor woman as long as it keeps him on the front page and kick starts his presidential campaign.
Third: Why is it that Congress has the audacity to presume that it is wise enough to make decisions about this poor soul based on incomplete secondhand information , in a matter of days, when they can't decide the fate of millions after endless debate.
lastly, as if there weren't enough" distinguished " media hacks and whores involved in this circus, I just heard on the news that we can expect a visit from the Reverend Jessie Jackson.Thank God that someone who has demonstrated his firm committment to his own family values will now weigh in. The only one missing now is the Rev. Al Sharpton.
Everyone should just back off and let this poor woman go. Maybe remember her in our prayers and pray that we are never tested the way that this family has been.

Posted by: barry2952

Another thing that people don't understand about her husband is that he made sure she had the best care from day 1. She got extraordinary rehabilitative care initially. The medical professionals were responsible for discontinuing that care when it was deemed fruitless. It was only then that he took her for the experimental surgury. This man went to great lengths to fulfill his marital obligations. I'm not saying he's heroic but he certainly went further than most of you would have, under the circumstances.

The dispute with the in-laws stems from them wanting a share of the malpractice settlement because they felt the were entitled due to their "loss of companionship". Obviously they had no standing and were denied as they have been in every court of law in the land.

He is villified because he took up with another woman and had two children with her. Is this guy not entitled to a life? How many of you would have waited 15 years?

Posted by: MonsterMark

There is sometimes more than meets the eye...

Bone scan

A bone scan performed one year after her 1990 injury showed, according to the radiologist who evaluated it, that Mrs. Schiavo had suffered prior traumatic injuries to multiple ribs (on both sides), to both sacroiliac joints, both knees, both ankles, several thoracic vertebrae, and to her right thigh, in addition to a minor compression fracture of the L1 vertebra. Mrs. Schiavo's family did not know of the existence of this scan until November 2002, 12 years after her brain damage and entry into an incapacitated state. Forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden, provided with the scan but not with her history, suggested that physical trauma, specifically a head injury, probably caused Mrs. Schiavo's collapse, though in a later interview, after learning her history, he agreed that the bulimia/hypokalemia explanation was also possible. The trauma is consistent with her cardiac arrest, fall, CPR attempts and eventual resuscitation. Upon becoming aware of the bone scan report possibly suggesting previous abuse, the Schindlers petitioned the Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Court for a full evidentiary hearing to evaluate the new evidence. On November 22, 2002, probate judge George Greer denied the motion, stating that the issue of trauma 12 years earlier was irrelevant to the current case.

Now, if you thought that your daughter had potentially been beaten into a coma, or however you would like to look at it, you might be able to understand why they have fought so vigorously over the last several years. To find out about the scan 12 years later seems a bit odd, doesn't it? Maybe, just maybe, Mr. Schaivo has had something to hide. I'm not saying he has, just speculating for pure enjoyment and harrassment sake, but it is something to ponder.

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry2952

Another thing that people don't understand about her husband is that he made sure she had the best care from day 1.

I am sure he is a great guy, and from all indications he is, but in the interest of continuing to agitate (this thread is starting to be fun), maybe he has had a guilty conscience from day 1.

Not saying he does, but wouldn't that be an interesting little twist.

Again, I just like to look at all sides of an issue.

Personally, the plug should have been pulled over a decade ago. That's what I would have done. I my case, I know for a fact (in writing) my wife doesn't want to hang around. The second her organs can be harvested, she wants them gone so they can do good for someone else. Same for me. I just pitty the poor guy that gets my liver.

Posted by: barry2952

Another load of crap. If you look at my x-rays you would swear you were looking at an abused person. Did she mountain bike or ski or play sports? They could have been injuries suffered from falling down drunk. You ever do that?

You're reaching for straws just like a true Bushie. Or is that Bushy?

Posted by: MonsterMark

Like my wife has said. The time to pull the plug would have been 6 months after the incident, not 8 YEARS later. Her parents have accepted her for how she is and they love and care for her daily, if allowed. Why doesn't Mr. Schaivo take the 1 mil, 5 mil, 10 mil or whatever he has been offered and give that money to her parents and let them take of her.

Unless you can read her mind (if there is one), who really knows what she wants. All I know is that it is wrong to cut of the parents at this stage. Mr. Schaivo is the a s s hole for putting her parents thru this.

Barry, I see you referred to my comments as 'reaching at straws' but I get the distinct feeling that if this were a murder case, and then the 'bone scan' info popped up, you may not be able to determine without the benefit of the doubt that maybe some abuse DID occur. Maybe he demanded his wife to be a skinny as a rail an caused her condition. I personally know guys like that. This could what we are dealing with. Humm.

I got a definition for ya Johhny...

Moron: Not knowing what you don't know.

Posted by: barry2952

But it's not a murder case so it's irrelevant information.

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry2952

But it's not a murder case so it's irrelevant information.

I know it's not a murder case but the injuries occured at or around the time of the brain injury. That in itself should lead to suspicion. I wonder if it was ever looked into as a potential abuse case. Just wondering aloud.

Posted by: MonsterMark

I thought I'd never see the day in my life when Jesse Jackson and MonsterMark would be on the same team. Did time stand still or what?

Jesse Jackson: "I feel so passionate about this injustice being done, how unnecessary it is to deny her a feeding tube, water, not even ice to be used for her parched lips," he said. "This is a moral issue and it transcends politics and family disputes."

What da ya think Barry? The 'ol Jesse Jackson to the rescue. The libs must be going insane!

Posted by: MonsterMark

Interesting. Looks like I'm in the majority with 62% of respondents saying they don't think they have all the info on the Schiavo case. Wonder why?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3080261/

Posted by: mach8

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry2952

But it's not a murder case so it's irrelevant information.

No it's not, but ther are some oddities about this that raise interesting lines of speculation. Such as the contention that Terri had decided to leave her husband, who was considered to be a control freak, and went home to take care of business then was found incapacitated. If she had been killed outright, murder investigation, put into the hospital, poor suffering husband.

And if Terri truly wished to avoid life prolonging efforts why does this only come out fifteen years later? Who did she communicate this to? When?, How?

And if the courts say she should die they could at least give her as good of a send off as a child rapist or a terminally ill pet. Shame on these judges, I treat my dogs better than this.

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry2952

Dont you feel like an a$$hole now?

No, not really.

I'll stand by my contention that this guy may not be who he seems. That's all.

And The Truth Shall Set You Free! (Jim Carrey)

Posted by: JohnnyBz00LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by mach8

And if Terri truly wished to avoid life prolonging efforts why does this only come out fifteen years later? Who did she communicate this to? When?, How?

Read up....... (link courtesy of KBob)

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

There is a link to the court document where it was determined what Terri's wishes were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

Mrs. Schiavo's family did not know of the existence of this scan until November 2002, 12 years after her brain damage and entry into an incapacitated state.

The Shindlers were fighting this long before this date. In fact, the event that sparked the falling-out between Michael Schiavo and the Shindlers was when Mr. Schiavo refused to give them money from the malpractice settlement, which they were NOT entitled to. This makes the motives of the Shindlers much more suspicious than any supposed "abuse" theory that was initially based on incomplete information (as stated in the remainder of your quote above). It's unfortunate that the Shindlers, the media and the public continue to ignore the facts.

Poetic Justice: Allowing these self-rightous, right-wing radicals to give Terri water or ice, watch her drown to death because she can't swallow, then watch them get jailed and sued up the A S S for wrongfull death.

Posted by: barry2952

I speculate that you beat your wife Bryan. I have as much proof as you do about their relationship.

Posted by: Joeychgo

I see it like this.

Nobody here, nor the general public, knows the true story as far as her real condition.

With that being the case I dont think we can meaningfully debate whether its murder or not, just or unjust. We just dont know her real condition.

I have been through similar situations twice in the last year. On both occasions I had to make the decision on whether to discontinue supportive measures and treatment. I can tell you it isnt an easy decision to make, and one that weighs heavily on the one making it.

From a legal and governmental perspective - I am quite dismayed that this has become such a political issue. I personally am quite dissappointed that GW has involved himself to such a large extent in this issue. Millions of our tax dollars have been spent by our government on this situation. And congress is no better. Trying to subpeona her just so she has too be supported to appear is completely wrong. I am amazed and ashamed at their attempt to sidestep the courts, who all the way up the road have ruled in the husband's favor.

Legally, the husband is the next of kin, and the one to make the decision. End of story as far as I am concerned. He has the support of her Doctors. WHo the hell are we to second guess?

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry2952

I speculate that you beat your wife Bryan. I have as much proof as you do about their relationship.

Well, if she wound up in the hospital looking as if she had been thrown down the stairs, you might be correct in wanting to speculate.

I am just being the devil's advocate here. (If you can believe that). Was all the money really spent as suggested or did the Schindlers have a reason to suspect he might be siphoning off some of the funds. Like you said, I don't know, I wasn't there. I guess you can call that 'speculating'.

Posted by: MonsterMark

Wooops. The Pope is on a feeding tube. Time to pull the plug!

Posted by: barry2952

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

'speculating'.

More like fabricating. The $700,000 was put in trust and was handled by an outside concern. What he did with his money is irrelevent.

Instead of playing devil's advocate how about spending the time doing some real research into this story so you can comment intelligently.

I still think you should feel like an a$$hole for making unfounded allegations. I can just imagine how Bryan would react if accused of abusing his wife.

Hey Bryan,

Are you still beating your wife?

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry2952

Are you still beating your wife?

Only with my rhythm stick and as often as I can.

And I certainly am not the one to make unfounded allegations. The Schindler family has been looking into the 'bone scan' issue since they found out about it 12 years after the fact. Of course, Michael is so upstanding in your mind it is easy to see how it could slip his mind that the bone scan revealed that she looked like she was hit by a train. No need to tell the parents that though.

Maybe you could check into whether those type of injuries could have been created by a simple fall. Enquiring minds want to know.

82% of people surveyed still don't feel they have all the facts. I'm just following the scent.

Posted by: Pepsi2185

the bone scan revealed that she looked like she was hit by a train.

Nice analogy brian

I fell off my four wheeler and it looked kinda the same. Or should i say my woman beat me off my four wheeler until i was in a coma.

You should suspect the schindlers for ouside interest just as you suspect her husband. Im not saying i love in laws, but as you said get the story from both sides. The Schindlers have been proven to be money hungry, and as far as i can tell mr. schiavo has not. Go easy on the husband brian, boys got to stick together.

Posted by: MonsterMark

I'm actually on the side of the husband, but what fun would that be. This would be a 3 post thread. Somebody has to make these things interesting. Shiiiish. Don't tell Barry.

Posted by: JohnnyBz00LS

Well, she's gone now. May her soul rest in peace at last.

Posted by: barry2952

I concur.

Posted by: MonsterMark

As Schaivo's attorney framed it, I guess she has concluded her 'death process'.

Posted by: barry2952

Looks like the Schindlers are already cashing in on their daughter's death by selling the list of names and e mail addresses of contributors. What scumbags.

Scumbags

Posted by: Kbob

I'm not sure which of the Schiavo threads to post this in, so I'll just put it in the one that has the most replies and hits.

I'm posting just to make a point. The point being what I originally got into this debate for in the first place, that supporting Terri's family's side of the argument is/was not hypocritical.

I watched the story of Terri Schiavo on the show Biography that's on the A&E channel last night or Sunday night. The reasons the politicians got involved in the first place was because of a massive public outcry as a result of a video of Terri Schiavo in her supposed "vegetative" state that was shown on TV (I think a local news station). The video showed a woman who was conscious and seemed to be aware of her surroundings. These politicians did what the public expected them to do, and that was to investigate. I'm not saying that it was right or wrong to let Terri die. But if you watched that show, or have seen videos of Terri Schiavo, without the influence of professional medical opinion, you would not think her to be a "vegetable". And the facts are this, no one knows for sure if Terri Schiavo had any conscious thought. The experts that said she didn't feel any pain or consciousness were simply stating their educated OPINION.

They were probably right, but we don't know for sure. That's why there was a big uproar, and that's why I believe it was right to investigate this case to the fullest extent, all the way to the Supreme Court.

I've read here and elsewhere that people that profess to care about Terri were just hypocrits because they couldn't even take care of their house plants, etc. With that same logic, I should not care one bit for those that were killed on 9/11/01 or in the OKC bombing because I didn't know any of them. Nor should that little girl that fell into that mine shaft years ago have received the outpouring of sympathy and superhuman efforts to save her life because hardly anybody knew her or were capable of caring for her if she became severely handicapped.

No, the reason why people cared about this case is because they care about protecting innocent people. They weren't medical experts that could coldly diagnose Terri Schiavo's condition and deem her hopeless. They aren't "opportunists" or "hypocrits", they are human beings that care for other human beings. They saw a woman who was not in a coma and who was unable to defend herself. The courts decided what they believe Terri Schiavo would have wanted. And they are probably right. But don't hate those that had hope for her. Don't ridicule those that believed her life spark was still there, because it can't be disproven.

God bless Terri Schiavo and those that loved her.

Posted by: barry2952

I agree with almost everything you said but I have to ask if you will be convinced of her condition, one way or the other, based on the outcome of the autopsy?

Shouldn't science rule in this case?

Posted by: Kbob

Sure, as long as it's proven. But again, we didn't know while she was alive.

Posted by: mach8

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry2952

I agree with almost everything you said but I have to ask if you will be convinced of her condition, one way or the other, based on the outcome of the autopsy?

Shouldn't science rule in this case?

NO! some of the most depraved, disturbing, vile thing done to human beings have been done in the name of science. Science has no morals, no respect for indviduals, and no bearing on the main issues of this case, ie does the government or a doctor have the right to end someones life, and to do it in such a manner. It is reminisent of the Nazi and Japanese medical experiments on living prisioners during WW II that were "ignored" by the allies so they could share in the results.
It's very interesting the autopsy was conducted by a person friendly to the court, then the body was cremated with unseemly haste.

Posted by: barry2952

DCF: Terri Schiavo Not Abused, Exploited

By VICKIE CHACHERE
TAMPA, Fla. (AP) - State investigators found no evidence that Terri Schiavo had been abused or exploited by either side of her family, according to documents released by Florida's Department of Children and Families.

The agency investigated 89 complaints dating back to 2001, when Schiavo's feeding tube was removed for the first time and the legal battle surrounding her right-to-die case intensified.

The calls alleged that the brain-damaged woman was being mistreated by her husband and her parents for financial gain. One complaint alleged that Schiavo's parents were selling videos of her through a Web site; another said Schiavo's husband wasn't spending money intended for her rehabilitation.

But investigators said they found no evidence that either her husband or parents were exploiting her, and often noted in their records that they found Schiavo well cared for on their visits to her Pinellas Park hospice.

The agency released the records Friday under court order.

Schiavo, 41, died last month after her feeding tube was removed for the third time, ending a bitter court battle between her husband, Michael Schiavo, and parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, over whether she would have wanted to live in a vegetative state.

The repeated allegations of abuse were based partly on bone scans showing Terri Schiavo suffered fractures and statements she made to family and friends that she was unhappy in her marriage.

Schiavo's husband has denied harming his wife. His lawyer said the fractures resulted from osteoporosis caused by the woman's years of immobility and complications of her medication.

Robert Schindler declined to comment there on the release of the DCF documents. An attorney for Michael Schiavo did not immediately return calls.