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Gen 2 Mark VIII will not start after motor swap

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Posted by: renkenj

I am new to this forum as a registered member, but I have been reading and learning here for a while now. It's great to be in the club.

I am a new Mark VIII owner but unfortunately not yet a new Mark VIII driver. I'll explain briefly. I bought a Black '98 LSC for a good price, knowing full well that it had some major engine problems and I figured I would ultimately replace the engine. It had a failing head gasket but it did run and I was able to drive it a few miles. I quickly decided to just go ahead and get a used engine and pay someone to put it in for me since I don't have all the tools or the space to do a complete swap. I purchased a warranted engine from a salvage yard out of a (supposedly) running '97 Mark VIII.

Fast forward to this week. The new engine is in the car and all hooked up and ready to go, but it won't start up. It cranks over just fine, but it won't fire up and run. At this point in the story, I am relaying what I am hearing from the mechanic, both when I was standing there watching him for several hours, and over the phone while we try to troubleshoot.

We are getting both fuel and fire. Fuel pressure reads normal at 45 psi. The plugs are new and correct. The coils are from the old engine and were working fine. The wiring harness from my old engine was swapped over to the new one. The intake and fuel injector/rail assembly was swapped over as well. A scanner connected to the OBDII port is reading data, but not throwing any codes. The crank and cam sensors have been checked and swapped from the old engine to the new one and then back again. An aftermarket Jet Performance chip was removed from the computer as well as an aftermarket alarm and remote start system, just to eliminate unnecessary variables. The battery seems to be good and has been connected to a charger throughout the process.

Everything seems right, but after three days of fiddling on this issue, I know my mechanic is probably ready to cut his losses and I'm anxious to have my car done. I've searched and searched here on this forum and elsewhere and I can't find anyone else with this problem after a swap. Could the '97 engine and '98 car be an issue? Does the computer need to be reflashed? Is there a sensor we're overlooking or a sneak circuit with a blown fuse?

Any thoughts on the issue are invited and appreciated. I look forward to some wisdom from the veterans!

Thanks!!!

Posted by: phreakness

fuel air spark. if you've got fire then check the MAF, TPS, IAC. also make sure its not flooded (hold down the gas pedal while cranking or pop out the spark plugs for a while) you need to scan the motor to make sure PATS isn't the problem and check for error codes. Go around and have a second set of eyes look for any missing or loose connections.

Posted by: kustomizingkid

How are you checking spark?

I'd unplug and plug in the CPS...

Posted by: Tiltedhalo

If you have fuel and fire you should get something a pop cough sputter even with a busted cam. Hell these things will even run in the limp home mode with no ECM support.
My 2 cents says check the pats, spark, and ECM , I had a friend pull a flip chip with the vehicle power on and wipe the program.

Posted by: renkenj

Thanks, guys. I will ask my guy if he's confirmed those sensors. I know he was messing with the MAF when I was there looking over his shoulder once, but not sure about the TPS. Good call. I had a '90 Bronco with a TPS problem now that I think of it. (Office Space flashback!)

Yes we were holding the throttle all the way open with no results. At one point it was flooded and he took the plugs out to let them dry, but I'm not certain whether that problem is persisting. I suppose that it could be.

To the best of my knowledge, he was testing the spark with a simple test light designed for the purpose.

I was wondering about the PATS. I did some reading on that but what I understood from it was that it wouldn't even let the engine crank if that were the problem. Will a SnapOn scanner test for that? I think that's the scanner he has. The keys I have are aftermarket programmed keys. I cannot get the originals, though everything had been functioning with the old engine.

I'll admit, I've always worked on older, less complicated cars and paid someone to work on my newer cars. This is a whole new experience for me!

Posted by: renkenj

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiltedhalo

If you have fuel and fire you should get something a pop cough sputter even with a busted cam. Hell these things will even run in the limp home mode with no ECM support.
My 2 cents says check the pats, spark, and ECM , I had a friend pull a flip chip with the vehicle power on and wipe the program.

It will spit and sputter just a little bit, usually with the throttle wide open. I'm with you, there's gotta be something disabling it like the ECM or PATS.

Posted by: renkenj

Update: The same problems described above persist after checking the sensors mentioned above. The car seems to be flooding. If you "trip" the fuel cut-off switch in the trunk, it actually tries to run for a second or two as the fuel dries out.

We have a person coming over later on who is more familiar with Ford electronics, so maybe he can spot something out of place.

Posted by: Tiltedhalo

Make sure your vacuum is routed to the fuel pressure regulator and relief valve. If its flooding that easy there is a problem in the fuel delivery, to check pull the fuse to the fuel pump hit it with a small blast of stater fluid if it runs for a second or two you know the problem.

Posted by: renkenj

I will check in to that and report back.

Posted by: XLRVIII

check you pm box renkenj

Posted by: renkenj

Update: I went to visit the mechanic today to continue to help troubleshoot the cause for the flooding, apparently preventing it from starting. When I checked the fuel pressure regulator, I discovered that there was no vacuum on the line. I checked a few other places and discovered that there is no vacuum at the ports on the intake when cranking the engine. Shouldn't there be vacuum? I tried cranking another Lincoln with a 4.6 SOHC and it had vacuum at the intake.

We took the intake off and checked the gaskets and seals there and cleaned up the IMRCs (one was partially stuck open), put it all back together and still no joy. Exact same condition. It will almost start with the cylinders and plugs dry. If the fuel pump is switched off it will run until fuel runs out. Or if the fuel pump is on, it will run until it floods out. It only runs for two or three seconds though.

We have already checked compression and each cylinder has about 180 psi, so it would appear that the valves are seating properly. Do I have a vacuum problem?

Thoughts...

Posted by: Frogman

Well... if it runs till it floods out with the pump on, then I'd start looking at your fuel pressure regulator, and maybe even your fuel return line.

Posted by: renkenj

Agreed, but if the regulators operate off of vacuum, and there is no vacuum when it is cranking.....am I missing something?

The regulators and injectors are know to be good, that is, it was on a car that had been running the day before and transfered on to this engine as an assembly during the engine swap.

Posted by: rayner601

I gotta ? What kinda car did the injectors come off of? Maybe they're too big?

Posted by: renkenj

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayner601

I gotta ? What kinda car did the injectors come off of? Maybe they're too big?

They were both Gen 2 Mark VIIIs. If you see earlier in my post, you'll see that I had a (sort of) running '98. Got a salvage motor from a '97 and stripped it down to a long block. All the sensors, intakes, wires, COPs, etc. were transfered from my original running engine to this replacement engine. Can't find any missing lines or wires and at least 6 people have given it a once over to check for problems.

Original engine had a blown head gasket and a bad knock.

Posted by: Frogman

Quote:

Originally Posted by renkenj

Agreed, but if the regulators operate off of vacuum, and there is no vacuum when it is cranking.....am I missing something?

The FPR will still function without vacuum. Hell, that's how you're supposed to check fuel pressure, with the vacuum line off it.

You said the car floods when trying to star it with the fuel pump connected. Check the return lines. Maybe one of them is pinched.

Posted by: kustomizingkid

I don't believe for 1 second that the car is flooding... efi cars don't flood...

Posted by: Tiltedhalo

Ok, long shot. What type of fuel injectors? some one could have replaced the stock injectors with high impedance EV6's with pig tails. The ECM will slam them wide and fry.

Posted by: renkenj

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frogman

I didn't know that about the vacuum line being off to check the regulator. Hmmm? Well, maybe it's another separate problem, but shouldn't there be some vacuum at startup?

A pinched line is possible. I know a brake line got pinched a little once before under a different situation so it's worth looking in to. I don't think it was pinched when we drove it into the shop under it's own power, but I suppose something could have gotten pinched while putting it up on the lift. I'm away from the car so I can't visualize if the lines run near any lift points, but I'll check.

Posted by: renkenj

Quote:

Originally Posted by kustomizingkid

I don't believe for 1 second that the car is flooding... efi cars don't flood...

The only way it even tries to catch and run is with WOT (injectors off) or if you crank it cold with the fuel pump inertia switch tripped off and it runs for a couple seconds on the residual fuel in the system. If you just crank it with the pump on, threre is an overwhelming smell of gasoline and if you remove the plugs they are wet with fuel. Take them out and dry them and blow out the cylinders and you can repeat the process all over again, but it eventually floods out. Something's obviously not performing correctly or the EFI would control a flooding situation. I'm no expert, but those are the symptoms.

Posted by: renkenj

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiltedhalo

Ok, long shot. What type of fuel injectors? some one could have replaced the stock injectors with high impedance EV6's with pig tails. The ECM will slam them wide and fry.

I suppose, though there's no evidence of anything other than stock wiring, and these are the exact injectors and regulators that were on the car when it was running and I drove it onto the lift under its own power. Literally everything is original to the car except for what was essentially a running (at least we were told) long block from a salvage yard.

Posted by: kustomizingkid

Interesting... what color are the injectors?

Posted by: renkenj

Quote:

Originally Posted by kustomizingkid

Interesting... what color are the injectors?

I'm not near the car, but as I recall, blue at the electrical connection and orange at the injector tip. I can check tomorrow for sure.

Posted by: kustomizingkid

Blue is the right color...

Posted by: renkenj

Does anyone find it odd that I can't feel any vacuum at the vacuum ports on the intake while cranking? Even though Frogman says that fuel pressure regulators don't need vacuum to start, it seems like so many things run off of a vacuum that it has to have some impact on other systems. I claim total ignorance on this point because I don't know how these engines are supposed to behave while cranking. I tried a SOHC 4.6 in a '95 Town Car and there was noticable vacuum while cranking.

Posted by: rayner601

Quote:

Originally Posted by kustomizingkid

I don't believe for 1 second that the car is flooding... efi cars don't flood...

I have seen it twice and both were related to a damaged PCM (one Chev Van, TBI, had been ran in water and it got in the PCM, the other was a mid 90's F150, 4.9, alt regulator went out and pretty much fried PCM)

Back to the OP...

An aftermarket Jet Performance chip was removed from the computer

Try swapping the PCM another Mark 8...maybe damaged the PCM by static discharge but not enough to kill it completely?

Posted by: renkenj

Interesting...I think the mechanic was gonna get a hold of a spare PCM today anyway and throw that in there for good measure. I'll update on the results of that.

Posted by: XLRVIII

yea it's soundling like a PCM issue..

Posted by: Tiltedhalo

there will be no vacuum at the regulator until the vehicle is running, default pressure is set by the regulator and the ECM changes this via vacuum from the engine.

Posted by: rayner601

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiltedhalo

there will be no vacuum at the regulator until the vehicle is running, default pressure is set by the regulator and the ECM changes this via vacuum from the engine.

The PCM doesn't control the fuel pressure. It is a mechanical regulator that if supplied normal engine vacuum will produce a lower fuel pressure. If that vacuum is low or not there, then the fuel rail gets maximum fuel pressure. The PCM can control voltage to the pump. During start or high engine demand, the pump gets battery voltage, all other times it gets a reduced voltage. This is done to reduce noise and to prolong pump life.

Posted by: unity

The PCM, sensors, etc are all STOCK to the Gen 1, right?

Posted by: XLRVIII

Quote:

Originally Posted by unity

The PCM, sensors, etc are all STOCK to the Gen 1, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by renkenj

I bought a Black '98 LSC for a good price,

I purchased a warranted engine from a salvage yard out of a (supposedly) running '97 Mark VIII.

Start Here Unity
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/sho...98&postcount=1

Posted by: renkenj

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLRVIII

yea it's soundling like a PCM issue..

Alright, so I'm gonna start down the road of throwing parts at it until something works. No local spare computers around like I thought, so the cloest and cheapest one I found is 50 miles away for $85 that I can pick up tomorrow. Now I want to make sure we are all talking about the same computer module. The likely culprit would be the computer module under the dash on the driver's side right? The one that has a service port on it right? Mine had an aftermarket chip plugged into it (since removed) and has a model number F8LF12A650EA which I understand is specific to the LSC model, which I have. I don't want to be chasing a goose all over the countryside for nothing! Will this introduce a problem with my programmed ignition keys?

By the way, thanks so very much to all who have chimed in and offered advise. I have learned a bunch and have kept my sanity through the process by being able to find answers. You are very much appreciated. Keep it up because it's not running yet!

Posted by: rayner601

Key programming is stored in the SCIL, no issues there...and yes you are talking about the PCM under the driver's side dash

Posted by: renkenj

Can't get a computer replacement until Tuesday. Arrrgh! I originally started this journey on Memorial Day weekend. Perhaps it will be finished by Labor Day!

Posted by: renkenj

Well guys, I got hold of a used computer with matching part numbers from an identical Mark VIII and put it in. All the same problems described above persist.

It will almost try to sputter to life with WOT and run for three or four seconds but then it quickly dies as it floods. I took the plugs out to check compression again and they were all soaking wet. Compression was good by the way with all cylinders hovering around 150 or better. We've had a few knowledgeable guys come and take a look at it with fresh eyes and everyone just walks away dumbfounded. Any more ideas?

If you read earlier in this thread, I raised a few questions about vacuum. I'm not sure that there isn't some problem related to the apparent lack of vacuum being produced while cranking. How many critical systems have to be functioning during startup that need proper vacuum? Just a thought.

Posted by: rayner601

OK this is going to be a wild ass out in left field guess...maybe it's pulling excess fuel or fuel vapor from the EVAP system (solenoid stuck open?). With this excess vapor plus the rich start up mixture, that may be the reason it's flooding. When you disable the fuel pump, then the mixture evens out enough for it to run until the engine is trying to run on vapors alone and then dies. The way to check this is to disconnect the hose on the intake that the EVAP is on. It's attatched to the black hard line..look where the a/c evap core connects to the accumulator. It's a hard line about 3/8". follow it until it changes to a regular rubber hose. Try pinching it off or plugging this hose and see if it will run. I know it's waaaaay out there, but I have seen stranger.

Posted by: renkenj

Hmmm. Certainly worth a try. I'll check it out and post back.

Posted by: XLRVIII

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayner601

I know it's waaaaay out there, but I have seen stranger.

that's a fairly sound idea.. and at this point.. the solution is either going to be something stupid simple or WAY WAY out there.

Posted by: renkenj

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayner601

OK this is going to be a wild ass out in left field guess...maybe it's pulling excess fuel or fuel vapor from the EVAP system (solenoid stuck open?). With this excess vapor plus the rich start up mixture, that may be the reason it's flooding. When you disable the fuel pump, then the mixture evens out enough for it to run until the engine is trying to run on vapors alone and then dies. The way to check this is to disconnect the hose on the intake that the EVAP is on. It's attatched to the black hard line..look where the a/c evap core connects to the accumulator. It's a hard line about 3/8". follow it until it changes to a regular rubber hose. Try pinching it off or plugging this hose and see if it will run. I know it's waaaaay out there, but I have seen stranger.

I pinched off the rubber line as suggested...no improvements.

Posted by: XLRVIII

My turn for a wild assed guess.

VCRM..

On tiffs 94 it wouldn't fire the injectors, the culprit was the VCRM.

hanging the injectors wide open? might be also a VCRM issue.
(located on the bracket that holds the air ride pump)
large aluminum finned box with a very large electrical connector, the connector has a bolt holding it into the VCRM

Posted by: 98LSC32V

Another vote for VCRM... it controls the low speed fuel delivery...

Posted by: XLRVIII

Tip: when you talk to the folks at the junkyard..
dont tell them how important this box is.

Tell them its a relay control box that controls the electric fan and your mechanic sent you after one.

DO NOT TELL THEM the engine wont run without it, that doubles the price.

last VCRM I bought was 20.00

Posted by: rayner601

Going out on another limb here, take a jumper cable and connect to the negative battery post and attatch the other end on the engine. Take another one and connect from the negative battery post and the other end connect to the ECM case. Got the idea from here..link I know it's a Mustang site, but for the most part fuel injection works the same.

Posted by: renkenj

Ok, we may be on to something. Just mentioned all this to my mechanic and he told me there was someone looking at it last week that noticed that the fan wasn't working. Perhaps we've got a bad part? I called the only yard around with a mark viii and they're gonna check to see if they have one. I'll post back with results. Hope we're going the right direction finally!

Posted by: XLRVIII

Quote:

Originally Posted by renkenj

Ok, we may be on to something. Just mentioned all this to my mechanic and he told me there was someone looking at it last week that noticed that the fan wasn't working. Perhaps we've got a bad part? I called the only yard around with a mark viii and they're gonna check to see if they have one. I'll post back with results. Hope we're going the right direction finally!

VRCM also controls the fan so, yes I believe we're on the right track.
IF SO, you need to drive that car to houston and come take me to hooters!
*LMAO*

Posted by: renkenj

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLRVIII

VRCM also controls the fan so, yes I believe we're on the right track.
IF SO, you need to drive that car to houston and come take me to hooters!
*LMAO*

I'd say we can definitely make that happen! FYI: a friend had a couple vcrms laying around from another year. Tried them and it Didn't work, but I'll wait and get the correct one before passing judgement.

Posted by: kustomizingkid

Needs to be a 97-98 unit for your gen 2...

Posted by: blacklsc1

left field comin at you. why did the previous motor pop a head gasket? could it be possible the converters are clogged?? the car should still run somewhat even with clogged converters, but it might be worth a check. the converters that are on it, did they come off the blown motor?

Posted by: renkenj

Quote:

Originally Posted by blacklsc1

left field comin at you. why did the previous motor pop a head gasket? could it be possible the converters are clogged?? the car should still run somewhat even with clogged converters, but it might be worth a check. the converters that are on it, did they come off the blown motor?

Great observation! The previous owner told me that the belt broke and the water pump wasn't pumping causing it to overheat. Yes the original converter on the side with the blown gasket was ruined as a result of water in the exhaust AND it was replaced during the swap. In fact, the only way it would run at all before was to loosen the O2 sensor on that side to releave the back pressure. The exhaust flow, as far as I can tell, shouldn't be a problem now.

Posted by: renkenj

Found a used VCRM and dropped it off at the garage for the mechanic to put in. (I know I could easily do it, but he's got the car at his shop and I had to be somewhere else.) I got a message that nothing changed with the starting problem. Should I try to find a shop with more diagnostic equipment? I don't think it's throwing any codes though so that may not help much anyway. My spare car is acting up now too and left me hanging today for a while. So frustrating!

Posted by: XLRVIII

Quote:

Originally Posted by renkenj

I don't think it's throwing any codes though so that may not help much anyway

man this one is a very tough cookie.

you should scan it and see what the PCM says.. it very well could be storing a code that may add more to the story.

I was fairly certian it was gonna be a VCRM..then again, I was fairly certian of my ideas previous to the VCRM also.

I wonder if somewhere, during the motor swap that a wire didn't get pulled.

the power distribution block {big fuse box by the battery) would be a good place to start..
Check for power TO all those fuses and relays.
ALSO the main power distribution block "beside the master cylinder" is also a place to look/check for broken wires..

THIS is where it gets very time consuming...sorry to say.

I HATE troubleshooting electricity.. you cant SEE the damned stuff.. like you can a trans fluid leak..
lol

Posted by: ford nut

Wow what a PITA.

Lets go back to what phreakness said.
Gas Air spark.

First off are you sure the gas is worth a $hit?
I had this same problem with a MG once and it had water in the gas.
Whos know how long this car sat with this gas in the tank.
You know you have spark.
Next I would do a compression test on this junkyard motor.
The Motor in the car ran, this one won't.
So one of the connections got screwed up during the swap or this "new" motor is worse then the one you replaced.

Good luck

Posted by: renkenj

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLRVIII

Yeah, I know that my guy and others have gone over and over those connections with a test light looking for problems. Is sure seems like something seemingly insignificant got left unhooked, got severed, or shorted out during the swap. You're right electrical problems suck!

Posted by: renkenj

Quote:

Originally Posted by ford nut

Wow what a PITA.

Lets go back to what phreakness said.
Gas Air spark.

First off are you sure the gas is worth a $hit?
I had this same problem with a MG once and it had water in the gas.
Whos know how long this car sat with this gas in the tank.
You know you have spark.
Next I would do a compression test on this junkyard motor.
The Motor in the car ran, this one won't.
So one of the connections got screwed up during the swap or this "new" motor is worse then the one you replaced.

Good luck

The fuel was the very first thing I took care of. It was nearly empty when I drove it in the shop under its own power, so when it wouldn't start at first, I went and got five gallons to put in it, so that should be fresh. All told, including the last three weeks in the shop, it hasn't sat more than three months total. It was a daily driver before that.

I've checked the compression twice. All cylinders are 150 or better. I called the salvage yard to confirm that this was a running engine. It was in the donor car and running when I ordered it. They pulled it and shipped the next day. The motor has a warranty (almost expired now) so they have an incentive to sell me a good product or else they would loose all their profit on shipping it back. The only thing that could be a small question about the motor itself would be the heads and/or a timing issue. But a compression test would expose that sort of thing right? Besides, it almost runs a little bit until the flooding kills it right away.

Posted by: ford nut

It sounds like its not a fuel problem to me.

When he checked for spark did he check every hole?
Is every plug soaked or are some plugs worse then others?

If some plugs seem worse I would swap around the COPs.
New COPs would be best.
See if I had better luck.

How is the Batt?
Is he starting it with a booster?

I just wonder if you getting good spark to every hole.

Did your mechanic have to put a intake on this motor?

Were are you at? DFW? Dallas fort worth?

Posted by: mrzeee

My 2cents say that if that car is flooding the oil pan is now full of fuel. replace the oil and filter before something bad happens. In the early days a flooded engine would wash the rings and fill the pan and prevent the car from running....just like the flooded evap system preventing a start.

Max

Posted by: renkenj

Fantastic news! We got it to start up and run. Blacklsc1, you win the prize! Just for the sake of thoroughness, we loosened the exhaust after the manifolds and it started right up like nothing had ever happened. I'm at the shop right now and we're still determining where the blockage is, but at least now it runs. Wow! Can't thank you guys enough. I have learned so much! I will post back later with a full rundown of how it turned out.

Posted by: rayner601

Congrats!!!! Glad it may not be something too serious...hands blacklsc1 a

Posted by: Warden

+1 For the LVC Community.

Posted by: XLRVIII

Quote:

Originally Posted by renkenj

Blacklsc1, you win the prize!

just as he's selling OFF his mark 8 and stuff..too..

Since he wont be here for the drawing, I still say you need to DRIVE YOUR BUTT to houston and we'll go to h00ters.

I'll make it worth your trip.. you'll have a good time, guarantee'd!!!!

dont think, just get in it and point that sucker SOUTH!

glad to hear you got it to run!

Posted by: ford nut

Quote:

Originally Posted by renkenj

Fantastic news! We got it to start up and run. Blacklsc1, you win the prize! Just for the sake of thoroughness, we loosened the exhaust after the manifolds and it started right up like nothing had ever happened. I'm at the shop right now and we're still determining where the blockage is, but at least now it runs. Wow! Can't thank you guys enough. I have learned so much! I will post back later with a full rundown of how it turned out.

Thats great!

Chalk one up for Blacklsc1
I bet he is right...thats why the head gasket went on the first motor.

Take Maxs advise and get that oil and filter changed.
Then enjoy the car.

Posted by: XLRVIII

Quote:

Originally Posted by ford nut

Thats great!

Chalk one up for Blacklsc1
I bet he is right...thats why the head gasket went on the first motor.

Take Maxs advise and get that oil and filter changed.
Then enjoy the car.
Then DRIVE IT TO HOU$TON and Celebrate!

There I fixed it for you

Posted by: ford nut

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLRVIII

There I fixed it for you

LOL.... I am going to have to make it to tommys place one of these days.
I know we would laugh for hours.

Posted by: renkenj

I am officially a Mark VIII driver now! A picture of the new ride is posted below. I've been out of town which explains why I haven't posted a close out to this little mechanical adventure until now. It's still a bit of a mystery what the ultimate problem was. Like I posted earlier, we separated the exhaust pipes from the manifolds and it started right up which would make you think it had a blockage. But the strange thing is that we put the exhaust back together and it kept running! There was never a blockage, or else whatever was there blew itself out! One guy told me "well, I guess it just needed to be burped." It threw a couple codes that had to be chased down and it still has a light on for some fuel mixture issues, but that can all be dealt with. I've used a whole tank of gas in the last two days and I love the car!

Thanks again guys for all your great advise and attention to my problems. I've learned so much about my car and I won't be afraid to tackle any projects on it now.

As soon as I can get to Houston, I'm gonna look you guys up that are close by and we'll go do the town.

Posted by: XLRVIII

Glad to hear its a "DRIVER"!!!

good deal, sorry it was such a PITA!

now.. head south on I-45....