Lincoln vs Cadillac Forums

(This is the forums archive - If you want to get back to the main site simply click the banner above and you will be taken to our homepage.)

Lincoln vs Cadillac Forums is the Ultimate Online Resource for Owners and Enthusiasts of American Luxury Cars. Feel free to browse through our archive - but make sure you make it back to our main site - Lincoln vs Cadillac Forums

Cadillac XLR : Cadillac CTS : Cadillac : 2005 Cadillac STS : Cadillac Forums : 2000 Lincoln LS : Lincoln Mark VIII : Lincoln Mark VII : Car Wax
Lincoln Town Car : Lincoln Air Suspension : Lincoln Continental : Lemon Law : Do It Yourself Car Repair : Lincoln vs Cadillac Forums : Mesothelioma

Back to the Archive Main Page

Pages: 1

Transmission, Ignition trouble?

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: mholhut

Been having some intermittent slippage with the tranny lately. When warm and accellerating, the tranny would drop out some times... and twice it stalled. Also had a problem with the car not going into reverse or drive on a few occaisions... so I figured the tranny was about to $hit the bed and took it to a local tranny shop for diagnosis. That was on Monday.

Yesterday they call and tell me the tranny is fine and that they're looking at the ignition system as a point of failure. I could tell that I may have a coil or two on the way out and spoke with them about the shoddy coils. I tell them if they narrow it down to the COP's, then I'd take it from there.

I get a call from them today and they said they have it narrowed down to either the ignition switch or the ignition harness. What the deuce?! I asked how can the ignition switch or harness effect the tranny acting as such. They explained that there was an intermittent and momentary power loss which was causing the car to behave as such. They said that they had the ignition hanging out of the dash and the car ran fine and exhibited none of the mentioned problems. So, they're going to pinpoint whether it's the switch or the harness and get the car back to me on Monday.

I hope it's the switch... only $33 through FPN. The harness on the other hand... $1190!!!

I'm just not sure about their diagnosis. The last thing I want to do is install a new harness and switch and a week later have the same drivability issues. Any have any experience or comments about this?

Posted by: 97stscaddy

Ahhhhhmm.... if there is an issue with the harness it would be simple enough to replace the damaged section of the harness (at a cost of $4 worth of wire and some solder vs $1200 for the whole harness.) If this is a wiring issue the problem would more than likely be in the power supply wiring for the shift solenoids.
I don't see why the ignition switch would be a problem really, but with modern cars you never know. See if you can get your hands on some wiring diagrams for the car and find out how/if the ignition switch is tied into the wiring for the transmission.

Posted by: mholhut

Yeah, I figured that when they narrow it down to either one or the other, I'd just have them repair the harness rather than replace it, if that was the problem. I'll run through the wiring diagrams on the CD tomorrow to see if I can trace the ignition to anything transmission related and anticipate their actions. When they were diagnosing the problem, they said the whole car was loosing power for a fraction of a second which was causing the failures. So I'm thinking that if the switch is gone, that could cause the brief loss of power they were talking about.

Thanks for the response!

Posted by: 97stscaddy

A loose battery ground cable could do that as well.

Or the positive cable for that matter.

Posted by: mholhut

The saga continues....

So I get the car back and they determined that the ignition switch was at fault. They noted carbon buildup on the contacts so they cleand them and it "seemed to be running fine." Not the most trustworthy words from a shop.

I get in the car and immediately notice that the stability control is flashing, which wasn't a problem before I brought the car in. I dove the car for the past week and the same symptoms appear, and more:

I noticed the trunk mat was moved... obviously, they had to disconnect the battery. But the spare tire well was filled with water, up to the bottom of the battery and the wiring harness was partially submerged. So I cleaned that out after removing the battery. Made sure all the connections were solid.

Then, the drivability issues return. I can still hear and feel the stumbling which is an imminent sound of COP failure, but no codes from the PCM. The shop mentioned that there were codes pulled before... something do to with the stability control and the crank or cam sensor. I took the car to Autozone to have the codes pulled, but there were none. So, with the stumblin, the car begins to exhibit the slipping on accelleration again. Getting on the interstate, when the car hit 3500 rpm's, it looses power and the tach bounces off the rev limiter... I can only slightly accellerate. Shortly there after (several drive cycles), I loose the cruise control intermittently. It simply shuts off and wont turn back on until I shut the car off and restart it.

Now the best part. The wife takes the car out last night to fill it up with gas. She was going to take it to work today so I could get her car aligned. She makes it to the end of my street and the car dies... won't go into gear at all. Car has no forward gear in D4 D4 and nothing in R. The car will move in SST, but not very far.

My thoughts: I know the car was loosing an ABS sensor from one of the front wheels. Over the past two years, I could get one of the front wheels to lock up when turning onto a gravel parking lot and stopping. So I knew one was on the way out. Since the stability control works with the ABS, I'm wondering if this is the real issue. The car is getting a bad message from the failed ABS sensor and is pulling all the timing out of the motor, hence, hitting the rev limiter and not allowing the car to move at all... now. I figure that thinking, along with the shoddy COP's would be enought to make the car a permanent fixture of my driveway.

Thoughts?

Posted by: 97stscaddy

When you say it bounces off the rev limiter do you mean it instantly redlines to 7000 rpm?

I would doubt that an ABS sensor would do all this but there is a way to find out. Disconnect it. With no signal from that sensor, the ABS system will disable itself entirely.

The codes for a cam/crank sensor kinda throw up a red flag. Those are both used in the ignition process to determine when the COPS deliver their energy to the spark plugs.

Water in the trunk means they probably left your trunk open and it got rained in. I would be taking the car to a dealer (a reputable one if you can find it) right about now and have all the electronics diagnosed. The way I see it, this is now well beyond the abilities of a DIY mechanic.

Posted by: camthman

uh.... go back to the shop you had it at and ask "why the HELL is there water all over everything!?"

Posted by: mholhut

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97stscaddy

When you say it bounces off the rev limiter do you mean it instantly redlines to 7000 rpm?

As I'm accellerating, it feels like the tranny slips out of gear and I hit the 3500 rpm rev limiter as if I was standing on the throttle with the car sitting in the driveway.

Quote:

I would doubt that an ABS sensor would do all this but there is a way to find out. Disconnect it. With no signal from that sensor, the ABS system will disable itself entirely.

Like I said, I know that the ABS system is part of the stability control, so I figured that if the car thinks the car is sliding sideways it pulls some timing off the motor.

Quote:

The codes for a cam/crank sensor kinda throw up a red flag. Those are both used in the ignition process to determine when the COPS deliver their energy to the spark plugs.

When I brought the car in and when I got it back the first time, the CEL was not on so I'm not sure when those codes appeared. I remember something on here about a certain # coil going south and causing other symptoms like a cam or crank sensor code. Thought it was cyl #4 but not sure.

Quote:

Water in the trunk means they probably left your trunk open and it got rained in. I would be taking the car to a dealer (a reputable one if you can find it) right about now and have all the electronics diagnosed. The way I see it, this is now well beyond the abilities of a DIY mechanic.

I asked about that and remember now that I did drive through some pretty torrential downpours between now and then. The service manager "forgot" to mention that to me when I picked up the car. I figure that they'd at least clean up the mess. I guessed wrong. The Svc manager said that there's a leak somewhere in the trunk. It makes sens because the carpet in the trunk was bone dry... just the bottom of the trunk well had water.

I called AAA to tow the car back to them... it's a tranny shop that also does full service repairs. They're going to find out the problem and not charge me a dime for the diagnosis.

Posted by: SoonerLS

AdvanceTrac uses a yaw sensor to detect yaw, not the ABS sensors (at least in the 2nd Gen cars). I can see a flaky ABS sensor causing many seemingly unrelated problems, though.

The misfiring COP on cylinder #4 often results in a false ETC failure code (evident in an ETC FAILSAFE message and severely reduced power), but that's not possible on 1st Gen cars. I suppose it's possible for a similar false code to happen on a 1st Gen, but I've not heard of it.

As for the water in the trunk, the first thing I'd check are the drain lines for the moon roof (I've forgotten if you have one). My '06 has one on each side, running down the C pillar and along the quarter panels to drain fittings behind the bumper cover. They're fairly good sized (around 3/4" OD, IIRC) soft rubber lines, so they could carry quite a bit of water into the trunk if they've popped loose.

BTW, are you still hassling them poor college boys?

Posted by: mholhut

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerLS

AdvanceTrac uses a yaw sensor to detect yaw, not the ABS sensors (at least in the 2nd Gen cars). I can see a flaky ABS sensor causing many seemingly unrelated problems, though.

The misfiring COP on cylinder #4 often results in a false ETC failure code (evident in an ETC FAILSAFE message and severely reduced power), but that's not possible on 1st Gen cars. I suppose it's possible for a similar false code to happen on a 1st Gen, but I've not heard of it.

As for the water in the trunk, the first thing I'd check are the drain lines for the moon roof (I've forgotten if you have one). My '06 has one on each side, running down the C pillar and along the quarter panels to drain fittings behind the bumper cover. They're fairly good sized (around 3/4" OD, IIRC) soft rubber lines, so they could carry quite a bit of water into the trunk if they've popped loose.

BTW, are you still hassling them poor college boys?

LOL... yeah, I'm still there

No moonroof in my LS so that's that with that. I'll wait and see what they say as far as sensor problems. I'm leaving for vacation... without the car, obviously. I planned on replacing all the COP's to solve that part of the equation before giving it back to the shop to figure out the rest of the issues, but the car decided to cough it up before vacation.

Hmmmm... there's a nice XK8R around the corner from me that's been for sale

Posted by: 97stscaddy

You honestly think a Jaguar is gonna be any better than the Lincoln?

Posted by: mholhut

The saga continues... and it doesn't get better.

Get a call from the shop this morning saying that the tranny has to be rebuilt... big suprise. I'm pi$$ed because they insisted the cause was not the transmission... it had checked out OK. The shop manager said that there was some speed related code that they pulled and that if left unchecked, it could cause the tranny to fail. I asked them if this code would trigger a CEL and they said yes. I told them I hadn't had a CEL on the car in over a year. So, they quoted me a price of $2000 to $2500 to rebuild it and weren't going to eat the $700 cost of misdiagnosis. So I called another local shop and got a price of $1500-$1700 to rebuild it. It also comes with a 36 month/75,000 mile warranty. They said I'd have it next week. I called AAA and had them tow it to the new shop.

Spoke with the mechanic there and I went over everything that had been going on with the car and what the other shop said and did. I felt better that the car was in good hands and I wasn't going to be gouged as far as price was concerned.

More waiting...

Posted by: mholhut

Well... the car is back with a completely rebuilt tranny. $1400 in parts and $1000 in labor. The day after I got it back, the CE light came on so I swung into Autozone and they pulled #4 and #7 cylinder misfires; which I expected. Bought a couple COP's off ebay the other day and installed them. That took care of the sputtering.

But, the car has a strange vibration at 1500 rpm's in both drive and when the tranny is not engaged. I'm not overly concerned as it's more annoying than anything.

And... the AdvanceTrac light still blinks. I'm wondering if the first shop bunged anything up with that when they ran the car on the lift???

At least I have the car back.

Posted by: rickztahone

Quote:

Originally Posted by mholhut

Well... the car is back with a completely rebuilt tranny. $1400 in parts and $1000 in labor. The day after I got it back, the CE light came on so I swung into Autozone and they pulled #4 and #7 cylinder misfires; which I expected. Bought a couple COP's off ebay the other day and installed them. That took care of the sputtering.

But, the car has a strange vibration at 1500 rpm's in both drive and when the tranny is not engaged. I'm not overly concerned as it's more annoying than anything.

And... the AdvanceTrac light still blinks. I'm wondering if the first shop bunged anything up with that when they ran the car on the lift???

At least I have the car back.

i know you at least have your car back now but i would be super pissed if after all that money was spent on fixing it it still wasn't working how it should. did they guarantee the work on the labor?

Posted by: 97stscaddy

Checked your brake fluid level lately? Might also be a good idea to slide under the car and make sure all of your wheel sensors are plugged in.

Vibrations are always hard to track down but start by checking the motor and transmission mounts for loose bolts.

Posted by: mholhut

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickztahone

i know you at least have your car back now but i would be super pissed if after all that money was spent on fixing it it still wasn't working how it should. did they guarantee the work on the labor?

The AdvanceTrac issue started with the first transmission shop. That light showed up after they "fixed" the problem with the ignition switch

I called my CC company and openned a case with them on the basis that the work performed on the car did not fix the original problem. They issued me a temporary credit pending the resolution of the case. I also asked the second tranny shop (the one's who rebuilt the tranny) to write up a statement on what they found as the problem and what they did. That, along with a narrative I'll write up should help the case. I'm also going to forward a complaint and request a refund through the first tranny shop's corporate HQ. Worst case scenario is that I just end up paying the CC company if they don't find in my favor.

The work is guaranteed and they are great people at the shop where I had the tranny rebuilt. They'd have no problem throwing the car back up on the lift to check the mounts.

Posted by: mholhut

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97stscaddy

Checked your brake fluid level lately? Might also be a good idea to slide under the car and make sure all of your wheel sensors are plugged in.

Vibrations are always hard to track down but start by checking the motor and transmission mounts for loose bolts.

I've had a pestering ABS problem for a while now. Every so often, the message center would tell me to check the advancetrac and throw the light on, but would go away on restart. I've also noted that I could get the front left wheel to lock which would mean an ABS sensor might be on the way out. I'm wondering if it finally failed.

My neighbor is a mechanic and he brought home a SnapOn diagnostic scanner so we could go through the car thoroughly and see what the advancetrac issue was. I went over there last night and the cartridges for the 96+ vehicles were missing so I didn't get anywhere with that. If he can't find them, I'll bring the car to FLM and have them diagnose the advancetrac.

I'm going to go through the car good and check all the sensors on the wheels, fluids, plugs, etc. The car is due for an oil change soon so that'll be a good time to devote a day to the car.

Posted by: rickztahone

Quote:

Originally Posted by mholhut

i've had that advancetrac problem myself (on and off). it might be just dirt on a sensor or something but it usually goes away. not sure what it really is but it goes away

Posted by: pagluy

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickztahone

i've had that advancetrac problem myself (on and off). it might be just dirt on a sensor or something but it usually goes away. not sure what it really is but it goes away

I've been going through the same issue for a while now too. It's annoying.

Loans:Bad Credit Mortgages:Remortgages:Pacotes Turísticos:Mortgages