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Supercharging 93 mark

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Posted by: dominate1776

Hey guys new to this site seems like you all know alot about these cars. I'm trying to find out what all I'm going to need to put on a votech s2 supercharger kit for the 96 cobra on my 93 lincoln mark 8. Its all stock need to know what I'm going to need to do this and the mods to finish it. So I'm hoping to get a step by stem of what I need and what to do and good ideas when this is off type thing. I find all kinds of sites were people have done it but I can't seem to find the one that tells me what I need and how to do it and what I should do as options that are good ideas. Thanks KC

Posted by: Eagle1

Are you irrevocably wedded to the commitment to use a centrifugal SC?

Posted by: k9t8m

Use the Search function. Be prepared to read for hours on this subject.

Posted by: Kbob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle1

Are you irrevocably wedded to the commitment to use a centrifugal SC?

I'm interested in your reply. Would you mind expanding your answer, please? Thanks.

Posted by: dominate1776

No not at all for everything I've read it sounds like the easiest one to convert and put on. I here that supercharger is faily efficiant personally I would rather turbo it but I don't want to remote place them. I like my car needs better brakes little better handling and about 100 more hp. I'm open to any suggestions and ideas I've even thought of putting the turbo's in the trunk.
I figured I would go the s-trim because it's sounds the easiest and gets me were I want to be.

Posted by: chickenviii

i haven't done it so i dunno, but i do know most put on a cobra intake cuz making a intake tube for the gen 1 intake would be a pain in the ass cuz of the throttle body location

Posted by: chickenviii

heres the link to cobra intake info
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=40740

Posted by: Sal329

Go with a KB setup. The one for a 96-98 Cobra would bolt right up.

Posted by: Battery

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sal329

Go with a KB setup. The one for a 96-98 Cobra would bolt right up.

Wow, wish that were true. There is an insane amount of work to make that thing fit correctly. i.e. It won't fit under a stock hood, the alternator needs to be moved slightly, and that kit is for a cobra which has different heads than a mark. Here is one guy that did it and the problems he went through http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=97219

Posted by: m_maker

That kit does bolt right up. Where did you get the idea that marks have different heads than older cobras ? It's obvious you have to have 96-98 IMRCs or 2nd Gen IMRCs, just like with a cobra intake. The alternator fits fine, must have been some od aftermarket core. The hood, well it's obvious it won't fit under 1st gen hood, but a 2nd gen hood or cobra R hood clear it just fine.

There is no bolt on kit period. All will require some work in some places, be it radiator relocation, or wiring changes, or clearing AC lines.

Posted by: Eagle1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kbob

I'm interested in your reply. Would you mind expanding your answer, please? Thanks.

Not at all.
I ran a centrifugal sc, an ATI Procharger, on my 2003 G35 coupe, with stock internals and 7 lb pulley. That unit and the Vortech are fundamentally the same, essentially a belt driven turbo. The ATI has a separate oil reservoir for lube, the Vortech taps the oil pan, the fuel management off the kit is aeromotive for the ATI and there are some folks that don't like that unit. But basically, I think they are both very sound and properly maintained can provide some very fine power for an extended period of time. I got 20,000 miles of virtually trouble free grins on mine, before giving it to a friend and going TT on my car. Subsequently he put over 60,000 miles on it, rebuilt it for cheap, built his motor and upgraded the fuel system and put a stronger pulley on it. Good products.

The challenge with the centrifugals is that they are "lazy". They did not wake up until about 3,000 rpm on the G, so while the power is great, it comes late relative to the Roots/Eaton type positive displacement blowers. The trade off with the straight twin screws is that while the power comes on very quickly and down low in the rpm band......they are all done in and through by about 3,000 rpms and flatten out/fall after that. Turbos come on late, but build even more power than the centrifugal SC units. And the thermal management and plumbing issues for them get to be very challenging.

When you start analyzing the power under the curve, its delivery, the torque and hp dynos etc., one seems compromises (there always are). I am a newcomer to this game with the Mark VIII, but from what I can see there is no plug and play or "bolt on" application for this car.

So, if one is going to have to go through the brain damage of adaptations, then one should open up their minds to doing any and all types of systems.

A fourth type of application, in addition to the above mentioned three, is the Lysholm type of lobed twin screw supercharger. Whipple here has the license. I am not familiar with all of the background issues of what and how that relationship works, and suspect it has to do with patents and proprietary rights to the design technologies, but suffice to say the unit delivers a much larger area under the curve for power...the down low "right now" power like the Roots/Eaton types, but also very strong mid to high range rpm grunt. Alas, while there are applications for newer model Mustangs, there are not for the older Cobra etc. So, some noodling and fiddling is going to be necessary to figure out if it could be made viable. I think this approach has some of the best returns available for power and simplicity...once someone who is a real maven at FI gets their arms around it. But the fitment is only the first part, and fuel management and tune are the next. It has yet to be done, and probably will take a few guys joining forces to underwrite it, which though not impossible, is still challenging to pull off.

Posted by: dominate1776

Well it sounds like I've got my work cut out for me. First question, is the only reason why people go with the cobra intake the crappy placement of the throttle body or are there other issues with its original setup? Next if I buy the kit for the 96 cobra and am going to use the original intake will the injetors fit and does the fuel pump for that kit also fit my car? For my application at this point I don't see spending the time and effort in going with the cobra intake and under pressure I would'nt think that gain would be that much I'm thinking maybe 10hp. So would rather spend some of the money for that project on the duct work to my original system.

Posted by: boxman1958

I had looked into a bolting up a M-112 Eaton (cobra blower) onto the 93 Mark VIII. After searching numerous sights and sending out numerous e-mails, I found the Mark heads were the limiting factor. The 99 and up cobra heads are more friendly for after market intakes and power adders. I'm running a whipple on my 07 Mustang and the response and pwoer vs rpm curve fit my needs.

the centrifigal blowers are the best fit. Try LMS (lincolnmotorsports) and inquire there.

Good luck.

Posted by: Roadboss

I believe Dennis has put together a Vortec kit for the Gen 1 motors, as I saw an article some where on it. You may want to contact him.

http://www.reinhartautomotive.com/index.htm

Posted by: lsc8

Why spend 3300 on a centri style s/c when you can get a twin screw for 3800? Darrin at Bc automotive is currently building a s/c motor for me. I am having forged internals with b heads which flow just fine...do the research...and a kenne bell set up. If you are serious about doing it plan on a lot of research and spending a lot of money. Figure out what you want from your car and what your budget is then call someone who knows what there talking about like Darrin. My build isn't done yet, but he has been great to work with and I highly recomend him.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle1

The trade off with the straight twin screws is that while the power comes on very quickly and down low in the rpm band......they are all done in and through by about 3,000 rpms and flatten out/fall after that. Turbos come on late, but build even more power than the centrifugal SC units. And the thermal management and plumbing issues for them get to be very challenging.

A fourth type of application, in addition to the above mentioned three, is the Lysholm type of lobed twin screw supercharger. Whipple here has the license. I am not familiar with all of the background issues of what and how that relationship works, and suspect it has to do with patents and proprietary rights to the design technologies, but suffice to say the unit delivers a much larger area under the curve for power...the down low "right now" power like the Roots/Eaton types, but also very strong mid to high range rpm grunt. Alas, while there are applications for newer model Mustangs, there are not for the older Cobra etc. So, some noodling and fiddling is going to be necessary to figure out if it could be made viable. I think this approach has some of the best returns available for power and simplicity...once someone who is a real maven at FI gets their arms around it. But the fitment is only the first part, and fuel management and tune are the next. It has yet to be done, and probably will take a few guys joining forces to underwrite it, which though not impossible, is still challenging to pull off.

Just a correction in terminology. The Eaton roots superchargers do not have "straight twin screws". They have interlocking (interweaving, meshing) lobes which are straight and much less efficient than a real twin screw design such as what comes from Kenne Bell or Whipple.

A properly configured turbo will come on later than a positive displacement blower (Roots or Twin Screw) but will come on quicker than a centri. While a centri will take its time lollygagging on up in boost the turbo will be pushing full boost at or near 2,500-3,000 rpms depending on the setup. Much more boost responsive than a centri from an overall standpoint.

Whipple used to have their blowers supplied by Lysholm. As of about a year or so ago they went into making the blowers in-house. Kenne Bell used to have their blowers supplied by Autorotor but they also started making their own blowers in-house. Kenne Bell and Whipple and the owners of both respective companies have a long and somewhat tumultuous history. I will not go into the details because it would take this thread off track. Suffice it to say that Whipple isn't the only twin screw blower builder with licensing to the twin screw blower patents.

The tuning and fueling will not be a problem. While there aren't exactly part specifically made for the Mark's they still share allot of Mustang items. Fueling for a street oriented system would be as simple as going to larger injectors, bigger fuel pump, and a MAFS that can handle the increased airflow (Terminator or L-MAF will support 400-450rwhp), and maybe an adjustable FPR. I am sure the stocker fuel rails will support fuel flow for at least 400-450rwhp before becoming a restriction. Most stocker Ford V8 rails will support that. Then tune it or have it tuned. A race setup would consist of upgrading the rails, lines, and FPR and adding a dual fuel pump setup or just a big single return pump such as an Aeromotive or Weldon to name a few. Giving a Mark proper fueling and tuning for forced induction may have its special challenges but it is nowhere near as hard where you would have multiple shops underwriting it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lsc8

Why spend 3300 on a centri style s/c when you can get a twin screw for 3800? Darrin at Bc automotive is currently building a s/c motor for me. I am having forged internals with b heads which flow just fine...do the research...and a kenne bell set up. If you are serious about doing it plan on a lot of research and spending a lot of money. Figure out what you want from your car and what your budget is then call someone who knows what there talking about like Darrin. My build isn't done yet, but he has been great to work with and I highly recomend him.

That twin screw you are talking about is not intercooled. That means if this guy ever wants to push more than 8-9 psi boost then he would be SOL due to that KB2.1 pushing his IATs too high. I have seen allot of people try and save $1k by getting the non-IC'ed Kenne Bell kits and they usually have ended up regretting it later. If the OP is going to head down the Kenne Bell route do it intercooled.

Posted by: Roadboss

Here's my KB setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI17C_PL2To

Posted by: lsc8

The twin screw you are talking about is not intercooled. That means if this guy ever wants to push more than 8-9 psi boost then he would be SOL due to that KB2.1 pushing his IATs too high. I have seen allot of people try and save $1k by getting the non-IC'ed Kenne Bell kits and they usually have ended up regretting it later. If the OP is going to head down the Kenne Bell route do it intercooled.[/quote]

That is why he needs to decide what he wants. If he wants a street car the non intercooled kit is plenty. Its not just another 1k for the intercooled kit either. First off its another 1k for the 99 up intercooler for c heads, then you have to have c heads etc., then its another 2k to upgrade to an intercooled kit. My setup will be running 14lbs non intercooled. But thats what HE needs to decide for himself.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by lsc8

That is why he needs to decide what he wants. If he wants a street car the non intercooled kit is plenty. Its not just another 1k for the intercooled kit either. First off its another 1k for the 99 up intercooler for c heads, then you have to have c heads etc., then its another 2k to upgrade to an intercooled kit. My setup will be running 14lbs non intercooled. But thats what HE needs to decide for himself.

I never stated what the total cost difference would be in this situation. I simply stated that allot of people thought they could save a quick buck by getting a non-IC kit. Most of those people ended up regretting it later on. Whether the non-IC units will hold up on a street car depend on what your definition of street car is. I have a street driven SUV with a Kenne Bell 2.2 liter intercooled supercharger pushing 20 psi and it is used for street purposes. Some people desire more than 425-450 rwhp in a street car and a non-IC'ed KB2.1 will not support much more than that while keeping pre-ignition at bay due to excessive IAT's.

Your suggestion about possibly using a KB2.1 kit was good but you did not really make an apples to apples comparison when you said "Why spend 3300 on a centri style s/c when you can get a twin screw for 3800?" That centri will be able to support more power because you can toss a FMIC on it with ease and be much more safe doing it because of the much lower IAT's that it will run when compared to a non-ICed Kenne Bell. You cannot just toss an IC onto a non-IC Kenne Bell system with that same amount of ease. I agree that this guy does have a few decisions to make. What KIND of power is he looking for, what are his power/ET goals for his car, how much is he looking to spend in total are just a few factors that will play a role in which decision will be best for him.

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