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XCAL w/ tune for H2O/Meth

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Posted by: mrshl13

Hello. I'm new here and have recently bought an '04 LS8. I want to know where I can find a dealer who can hook me up w/ an XCAL2 or 3 w/ a tune for water/meth. I know I'll want to adjust but UDO usually only allow for small timing and fuel curve adjustments. I'd like a good base tune and would really like to have some support from the dealer to be able to email requests w/ logs and updates. Any help? I'm near Charlotte, NC.

Posted by: zintkala

???????????? Not sure what you are actually asking? Water?

If you are looking for an Xcal and custom tunes LvC member "ILLS" would be my first choice. Robert has been great and can't complain about my tunes. Ran a 9.32 1/8th Saturday on my 19's. Nothing wrong with that! Car drives great and MPG on the highway is up too.

Posted by: mrshl13

Meaning injecting a water and alcohol mixture to improve cooling and increase octane for increased timing on an already high-compression engine. Thanks. I'll check him out.

Posted by: zintkala

Not sure if there is really much to be gained from it on this motor. If running nitrous or boost, definately. Ask Robert as he has alot of experience with those systems. I'm running +1 TO +2 degrees over stock at the track depending on conditions, any more slows it down. No detonation when using octane boost but it doesn't run any better or gets slower. I'm thinking that with a decent tune, CAI and Exhaust you are right at what these cars are capable of stock.

Posted by: ILLS

Zintkala is correct here. Meth can account for huge gains when cooling the aircharge in a boosted application where ACT's (IAT's) can run in the 200+ degree range but it really isn't worth it when running N/A while pulling ambient air. The higher octane you get from running meth injection is of a large benefit once again where you are on the borderline of detonation with a forced induction setup and need to bump the octane up to run more spark advance safely. Running really high octane whether it be in the form of racegas or meth injection into a N/A vehicle will hit a point of diminishing returns. If it didn't then everyone would be running around on 110unleaded racegas ($$$) in their N/A street performance vehicles. Some N/A vehicles will benefit from a touch more octane while other's will not. Allot of this has to deal with how the combustion chamber is designed in the heads in addition to the compression ratio. Meth is best a mod done in conjunction with a turbo or supercharger. You can use it like I believe Cammerfe did and run it in replacement of the fuel for a wet nitrous system but the jetting will be different due to meth having a much lower stoichiometric point than gasoline does. If you want a kick in the pants then I suggest getting a custom tune and full bolt-ons. If you want more power after that then the next step would be a wet nitrous system pulling regular fuel from your hardline. If you want more power after the nitrous then it will get expensive real quick. Good luck with things.

Posted by: mrshl13

Thanks for the responses. I gained quite a bit w/ injection on my Mustang but it ended up with really high compression and I had to shoot water/meth just to get back to stock timing of 10* advance. That was good for 18 RWHP which is huge for $250 and I was still advancing timing 2* a week without pinging. I guess even with the ratio it has this engine still isn't that high.

I'm going to go with a tune and CAI and see where that gets me. Then maybe some N2O later.

Posted by: Quik LS

I've used meth kits (form Snow Performance) to cool the heated intake charge - heated from the compression of a turbo or supercharger.

But it sounds like you are wanting to use it as an octane booster? ...that's different.....

Posted by: mrshl13

You get both of those benefits from alcohol and some cooling from the water. Very high compression N/A engines will benefit some from water/meth injection and that's where my experience is. I'm looking for a good roi though like I had on my Mustang. It looks like I may not get that w/ the 3.9 in the LS though.

Posted by: Quik LS

what kind of compression was the mustang running?

Posted by: mrshl13

I'm stretching here trying to remember. It was a 32v Aviator bottom end w/ smaller (4.5cc?) dished pistons made for a larger combustion chamber and PI heads w/ tiny combustion chamber. I think we calculated it at 11.5:1 or closer to 12:1 but could be off a bit. It's been a couple of years and gallons of scotch since then.

We had to retard timing 3* from the stock 10* advance. After the Snow N/A kit I was able to bump it back to 10* and eventually 4* past that with no pinging before I sold the car...new daddy had to lose some toys.

Posted by: cammerfe

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

Zintkala is correct here. Meth can account for huge gains when cooling the aircharge in a boosted application where ACT's (IAT's) can run in the 200+ degree range but it really isn't worth it when running N/A while pulling ambient air. The higher octane you get from running meth injection is of a large benefit once again where you are on the borderline of detonation with a forced induction setup and need to bump the octane up to run more spark advance safely. Running really high octane whether it be in the form of racegas or meth injection into a N/A vehicle will hit a point of diminishing returns. If it didn't then everyone would be running around on 110unleaded racegas ($$$) in their N/A street performance vehicles. Some N/A vehicles will benefit from a touch more octane while other's will not. Allot of this has to deal with how the combustion chamber is designed in the heads in addition to the compression ratio. Meth is best a mod done in conjunction with a turbo or supercharger. You can use it like I believe Cammerfe did and run it in replacement of the fuel for a wet nitrous system but the jetting will be different due to meth having a much lower stoichiometric point than gasoline does. If you want a kick in the pants then I suggest getting a custom tune and full bolt-ons. If you want more power after that then the next step would be a wet nitrous system pulling regular fuel from your hardline. If you want more power after the nitrous then it will get expensive real quick. Good luck with things.

As ILLS says, I rejected the use of gasoline as part of the 'spray' package after setting the Maxton E/FSS record, and went to methanol. I'm not sure what the exact theoretical stoichiometric point is with the CH3OH---I'm told that it's about 6, but you can successfully run as rich as 4. I used three different pill sizes in E/FCC and went faster, the larger I got. I ran out of reasonable jets at that point.

I have since played with it on the street, by triggering the spray system without having the bottle open. You can feel it jump even at that, and I still have the pill in from the last run at Maxton. On the other hand, I doubt that it added any more than 10-15 HP and wouldn't be worthwhile as a stand-alone addition to a N/A vehicle unless you were running way too much compression and having trouble getting gasoline.
KenS from Ben's Place

Posted by: cammerfe

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammerfe

<edit>
Make no mistake about it, a stand alone fuel system terminating in a fogger nozzle to put methanol into your intake stream is an excellent idea, when used with additional power-adding equipment. It's even OK by itself. Under combustion conditions, methanol---CH3OH---breaks down into carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. The oxygen forms molecules that support the combustion of methane (CH4) and/or hydrogen (H2), by the general formula 2CH3OH=2CH4+O2. (Actual chemical interactivity details not imperative here.) The additional oxygen is one of the reasons why methanol is relatively 'non-fussy' about the exact stoichiometric point. The result of all this is that you are not only adding fuel, but also adding the oxygen with which to burn it. The street 'playing' I outlined above, if done by adding gasoline would literally kill the engine by drowning it. But by adding methanol, or any other of the more common alcohols, you are creating some degree of extra power.

Look at the picture of the trunk-mounted fuel system in my thread 'Land Speed LS' here in the HP section. The blue cushioning visible is wrapped around a high pressure electric pump and filter. The picture of the hardware in the engine compartment shows the bypass regulator that keeps the methanol flowing to the engine at 65 pounds. The totality of the methanol delivery system, including the cell, pump, filter, regulator, teflon stainless braided lines and fittings, mounts, et cetera, probably cost about $500.00. Your money would be better spent for a street nitrous oxide system, available for between $500 and $800. For that money you have at your fingertips more extra power than prudence would suggest running into a stock engine. I've used as much as a 150 shot with race gas, but the factory pump isn't really up to flowing that much gas so the results were disappointing. But nothing broke!

That's when it becomes time to build a stronger engine and get the extra hardware. My TTs will be here within the next couple of weeks, and my four litre Jag block is being machined as I peck away here!
Ken From Ben's Place

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