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Cold Weather Starting Problem: Gen 2's

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Posted by: MonsterMark

I know there are a bunch of guys out there having cold starting problems in their Gen 2's, myself included. I have spent a ton of time dealing with these issues over the past week. I am making a sticky here with the hopes that what I have found out helps some of you guys as the weather gets colder.

1st off. Anytime the air temp drops to below 20 degrees F, my car would not start. Crank, crank, crank. I would have to blow hot air from a Kerosene heater (30,000BTU) for about an hour to get it to finally and sporadically fire. By then the plugs were wet.

I replaced a crank sensor and cam sensor. No results.

I replaced the IAT (Intake Air Temp) Sensor. No good.

I will replace the ECT (Engine Control Temp) sensor in the next day or so. I believe that even though the IAT and ECT may be in sync (Mine were), the ECT may be sending out some bad parameters. This solution seems to be a long shot.

A couple of times I had to use a part throttle to get it to at least fire. Another guy (FrankieX) on another board confirmed my findings by also hearing from some Ford guys that they recommended a part (1/4) start. Put the petal in 1/4 position before turning the key. Don't pump, just put the throttle down 1/4 and leave it till it fires. I eventually had to move the throttle around ever so slightly around the 1/4 throttle area to find the sweet spot. I also found putting the pedal to the floor did not work (putting the pedal to the floor shuts off the injectors to prevent flooding) when starting. I therefore do not see that as a method at this point to start a cold (rich condition) car even though it would make sense.

A check in a Ford service chat room revealed a recommendation to replace the plugs with new Ford Platinum plugs and then get a computer reflash. The reflash may be to deal with the cold weather flooding issue although I haven't confirmed this. This seems the most logical repair at this point but my aversion to dealer sweat shops still leaves me trembling and somewhat reluctant to enter their world.

I have replaced the Bosch Platinum plugs I had with some good 'ol Autolites gapped at the factory recommended .054. Unfortunately the weather has warmed so I cannot test the new plugs properly. I will when it cools down again.

Also tested the fuel pump and pressure and it seems the fuel pump is not the issue. Put a gauge on it. Anything over 30 (Key on, engine off) is enough to start the car. I had 38-40 engine primed (key on/engine off) and solid 36 (engine running). I am not saying that a new pump would not be beneficial at this point. I am sure it would help. (But dropping the tank is a huge PITA).

I noticed when I pulled the intake off the throttle body that there is a pretty tight seal around the throttle body plates. Again FrankieX confirmed for me that Ford has said the opening is unsuffucient to flow cold/dense air and leads to a rich (flooded) condition. Herein lies the problem.

So a reflash may be the best solution at this point. I will wait for some more cold weather so I can positively eliminate the other variables.

Anyway, I hope a few more guys can chime in and share their findings.
At this point it seems related only to the 2nd Gens with the EEC-V computers, although I am sure it affects some '96's with the OBD-II and maybe some of the other Gen 1's as well. (Don't know).

The cam/crank sensors are not the holy grail when it comes to cold starting these cars as everyone has thought.

The problem seems to be directly related to cold/dense air metering.

Posted by: ERIC1

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

I know there are a bunch of guys out there having cold starting problems in their Gen 2's, myself included. I have spent a ton of time dealing with these issues over the past week. I am making a sticky here with the hopes that what I have found out helps some of you guys as the weather gets colder.

1st off. Anytime the air temp drops to below 20 degrees F, my car would not start. Crank, crank, crank. I would have to blow hot air from a Kerosene heater (30,000BTU) for about an hour to get it to finally and sporadically fire. By then the plugs were wet.

I replaced a crank sensor and cam sensor. No results.

I replaced the IAT (Intake Air Temp) Sensor. No good.

I will replace the ECT (Engine Control Temp) sensor in the next day or so. I believe that even though the IAT and ECT may be in sync (Mine were), the ECT may be sending out some bad parameters. This solution seems to be a long shot.

A couple of times I had to use a part throttle to get it to at least fire. Another guy (FrankieX) on another board confirmed my findings by also hearing from some Ford guys that they recommended a part (1/4) start. Put the petal in 1/4 position before turning the key. Don't pump, just put the throttle down 1/4 and leave it till it fires. I eventually had to move the throttle around ever so slightly around the 1/4 throttle area to find the sweet spot. I also found putting the pedal to the floor did not work (putting the pedal to the floor shuts off the injectors to prevent flooding) when starting. I therefore do not see that as a method at this point to start a cold (rich condition) car even though it would make sense.

A check in a Ford service chat room revealed a recommendation to replace the plugs with new Ford Platinum plugs and then get a computer reflash. The reflash may be to deal with the cold weather flooding issue although I haven't confirmed this. This seems the most logical repair at this point but my aversion to dealer sweat shops still leaves me trembling and somewhat reluctant to enter their world.

I have replaced the Bosch Platinum plugs I had with some good 'ol Autolites gapped at the factory recommended .054. Unfortunately the weather has warmed so I cannot test the new plugs properly. I will when it cools down again.

Also tested the fuel pump and pressure and it seems the fuel pump is not the issue. Put a gauge on it. Anything over 30 (Key on, engine off) is enough to start the car. I had 38-40 engine primed (key on/engine off) and solid 36 (engine running). I am not saying that a new pump would not be beneficial at this point. I am sure it would help. (But dropping the tank is a huge PITA).

I noticed when I pulled the intake off the throttle body that there is a pretty tight seal around the throttle body plates. Again FrankieX confirmed for me that Ford has said the opening is unsuffucient to flow cold/dense air and leads to a rich (flooded) condition. Herein lies the problem.

So a reflash may be the best solution at this point. I will wait for some more cold weather so I can positively eliminate the other variables.

Anyway, I hope a few more guys can chime in and share their findings.
At this point it seems related only to the 2nd Gens with the EEC-V computers, although I am sure it affects some '96's with the OBD-II and maybe some of the other Gen 1's as well. (Don't know).

The cam/crank sensors are not the holy grail when it comes to cold starting these cars as everyone has thought.

The problem seems to be directly related to cold/dense air metering.

bryan
dump about 3 bottles of dry gas in whlen you fill up. the oxygenated winter gas has sometimes proven to cause a lean condition leading to your maf problems. try it i think itll fix you right up it did with my t-bird and stang.
actually i had to do the exact thing with my wifes windstar this past week as she started it it triggered a ce light and when i read it it reported lean condition bank 1 added the alcohol and never had a problem since.
Eric

Posted by: ERIC1

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERIC1

i just re-read your post and i dont understand something your getting a rich condition with KOEO but it should go lean as soon as you turn to crank it. is this not the case?
Eric

Posted by: MonsterMark

The engine is flooding from the 1st time you crank it when below 20 degrees. Did the exact same thing last year. I thought it was the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) originally but I am leaning towards the Air/Fuel as the culprit. I am trying to find out exactly what the reflash does that was recommended by the Ford guys with the new Motorcraft Platinum plugs. Once I understand what that reflash does, then we will go from there.

Posted by: ERIC1

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

The engine is flooding from the 1st time you crank it when below 20 degrees. Did the exact same thing last year. I thought it was the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) originally but I am leaning towards the Air/Fuel as the culprit. I am trying to find out exactly what the reflash does that was recommended by the Ford guys with the new Motorcraft Platinum plugs. Once I understand what that reflash does, then we will go from there.

yah let me know i am very curious to learn something new.

Posted by: Jamler3

Bryan, I wonder if a reporgram of the computer will work... Like a new chip?
Since all this seems to be controlled by the module... I'm selling my tires/wheels
and plan to put an LMS XX Exhaust, Air Sys and new computer code as soon as I can.

Posted by: MonsterMark

I am trying to find out EXACTLY what the reflash does and how it affects the cold start problem. With that info, I can decide to flash or not to flash.

Posted by: Cubster

Have you thought about moving to a warmer climate. lol
Just kidding, couldn't resist the comment !!!

Posted by: evillally

Hmmm...

I've never had cold-starting problems in my Gen-2 Mark. However, the OEM Motorcraft battery recently died, leaving me stranded at school.

After getting a jump, I went to the Salem, NH Ford dealership for a replacement Motorcraft battery. When I placed the order, the clerk told me that there are two batteries availible for the Mark VIII, and for the same price of $80. The two batteries were 650 crank, and 850 crank. I opted for the 850 crank, I figured it would help with my high-powered sub system.

After installing my new 850 crank battery, the Mark seemed to start much better than before- not that I had any trouble, but it started right up with little effort at all.

So... maybe if you upgrade your battery to the 850 crank, you may see some improvement without the stealership raping your bank account in diagnosing a possibly non-exisantant and easy to fix problem.

And, with it being -5 below zero here in Northern Mass, starting is trouble free so far...

Just a sugeestion, that's all...

Posted by: Lickwid

I just never pull my mark out of the garage if its under 60 degrees.

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by evillally

So... maybe if you upgrade your battery to the 850 crank, you may see some improvement without the stealership raping your bank account in diagnosing a possibly non-exisantant and easy to fix problem.

Thanks for the comments. Battery is 850 crank and solid.

As an update, I solved my cold start issue with new Autolite 764 Spark Plugs gapped at .054 for a bigger spark. A $1/pc @ Walmart. Can't beat 'em. Always ran those in my '93's. As Geno can attest, best plugs for this car. Warmer temps, smaller gap. Colder temps, bigger gap. That's what I learned.

Starts on 2 cranks now. Best starting performance ever. Its been 0 degrees out and starts right up.

The plugs I had in there were Bosch platinum and they were gapped all over the place. I should have replace plugs before but they were just replaced when I bought the car and I only had 20,000 miles on them. Live and learn. When in doubt, start with spark first, then fuel, then air.

Posted by: Nightsky 93 VIII

One more comment. No one seemed to mention the IAC valve (Idle air control). It is equal the to the old cold start assist valves. On the second gens they are a piece of cake. On the first gens, they suck to get to.

Mike

Posted by: MonsterMark

Thanks Mike for the comment. Yes, on the Gen 2, it is literally a 10 second swap. Although I have seen less an less indication that the IAC is a potential culprit.

The best that I have seen is to modify the stock Autolite plug by performing a "cut-back ground electrode" to the plug. Just as it says, you cut back the electrode which not only increases the size of the spark, but sends the spark shooting out across the flame front for a more complete combustion.

I was really really frustrated with the solutions I was getting and I didn't feel like reflashing the computer was the solution because who knows what else would go wrong then with the changes. The plug change was MY solution, although it may or may not be yours.

Posted by: brentalan

very interesting info thanks for sharing all of your trials and tribulations, it is food for thought for all of us.

Posted by: 97 Ivory Pearl VIII

Quote:

Originally Posted by evillally

Hmmm...

I've never had cold-starting problems in my Gen-2 Mark. However, the OEM Motorcraft battery recently died, leaving me stranded at school.

After getting a jump, I went to the Salem, NH Ford dealership for a replacement Motorcraft battery. When I placed the order, the clerk told me that there are two batteries availible for the Mark VIII, and for the same price of $80. The two batteries were 650 crank, and 850 crank. I opted for the 850 crank, I figured it would help with my high-powered sub system.

After installing my new 850 crank battery, the Mark seemed to start much better than before- not that I had any trouble, but it started right up with little effort at all.

So... maybe if you upgrade your battery to the 850 crank, you may see some improvement without the stealership raping your bank account in diagnosing a possibly non-exisantant and easy to fix problem.

And, with it being -5 below zero here in Northern Mass, starting is trouble free so far...

Just a sugeestion, that's all...

My battery crapped out last week too. And I went the 850 CCA route as well.

I also got an education, or should I say a re-education. The batteries in our Mark VIIIs are NOT sealed, maintenance-free units. The factory cover over the battery lulls us into a false sense of security. Seems our batteries are "low profile" compared to a battery in a GM car. That means less room between the top of the case and the top of the plates. SOOOO there is less room for water and it is possible over time for the top of the plates to become exposed due to evaporation from under-the-hood heat and whatnot, thus lowering the battery's power and shortening the battery's life. The moral...check your battery like you did in the old days and leave the PITA cover off unless you are super-vain about keeping your battery hidden.

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by brentalan

very interesting info thanks for sharing all of your trials and tribulations, it is food for thought for all of us.

Hey Brent, no problem. One of the most maddening situations I have come across. No codes, lots of spark and fuel, but I think an absense of air due to density issues related to the throttle-body that made it run rich without enough spark to light.

Posted by: Jamler3

Bryan,

I'm about to replace my plugs... You say the Autolite 764s are the best...?
Was planning an .048 gap, but you say .054 for cold weather...? I'm in Jersey and yes its cold now, but do I need to re-gap in the summer heat? Or does that not matter much...?

JC

Posted by: MonsterMark

I would definitely gap at .054. You want the biggest spark possible to compensate for the rich condition our car starts under. The air is too heavy and the mixture is really rich when turning the car over. Add the fact that the revs during starting are slower than summertime and that all leads either fouled or wet (flooded) plugs. The Walmart 764's are a $1/pc. You can always change again in the summer and close your gap if you want. The coil on plug is a breeze to change. I do not unscrew each screw that holds down the COP, i just disconnect them. You may want to get a magnetic retrieval device to pull the plug out of the hole. Also, if you have an extra COP boot lying around, I put the new plug in it and then use the boot to go down into the hole and then hand tighten the plug so I am not stripping the threads before I put a wrench on it. I swer, it is a 10 minute change max if you really hustle. A breeze.

Posted by: LSCGODDESS98

Knock On Wood Here... So Far I Havent Had Starting Issues In Cold Weather,
I Guess I Got A Good Lsc That Has Nothing Like This Happening,but Lol I Guess I Should'nt Jinx Myself ;d

Posted by: l-m tech

the iac valve is more than likely the problem.it gets stuck shut starving the motor of air,the injectors are still operating,causing a flooding condition.

Posted by: MonsterMark

It is in my humble opinion that it is more related to the air temop and density than anything else. After all I went through, plugs fixed it. Anytime it went colder than 20 degrees, no start. Not anymore. Has started everytime since, without exception.

Posted by: lsc8

im having a similar prob...when it first started getting cold my 97 m8 seemed to be starting hard in the morning, but it would start..now today it was 0 out and it wouldn't start at all. I just put a new IAC valve on it and im getting 40 psi of fuel pressure. It sounds like it tries to catch every once in a while, but just wont start. I haven't checked the plugs yet, but I will let you know more after i do. Anymore help would be great. thanks

Posted by: 94m5

Bryan, this is my buddy jeb, I stood outside in the FREEZING cold tonight trying to diagnose his problem, I'm gonna get him a set of those plugs, get em gapped, and get em in. I'll let you know the results.

Mike

Posted by: MonsterMark

Please do. I went crazy trying to figure it out myself.

Posted by: mespock

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

Please do. I went crazy trying to figure it out myself.

Sell for a Gen 1 LOL - Just had to say Bryan - Oh and don't you rich City folk have those heated garages?

Posted by: lsc8

we are just poor dumb farm boys without enough sense to get in out of the cold we don't know nothing about them fancy heated garages..
lol....and mikes car is in pieces in my garage.

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by mespock

Sell for a Gen 1 LOL - Just had to say Bryan - Oh and don't you rich City folk have those heated garages?

Funny you should say that. I'm just finishing up my garage, plumbing in the heat ducks from the house furnace. A man needs his cave and now mine is soon to be nice and toasty all winter long. Now, if only I could get the cars and parts out of there so I could actually 'park' a car, that would be great.

Posted by: Dominus

Whenever I have had cold starting problems, the battery and the plugs always solved the problem, no matter what the car. Hit up that IAC valve while you are it it. Easy work that saves you a lot fo trouble.

Posted by: lsc8

well the weather warmed up to about 30 and my car started up but ran a little rough. drove it for a couple of days and then mike and i changed the plugs...now its starting even when cold and running alot smoother too. thanks for all the help monster

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by lsc8

well the weather warmed up to about 30 and my car started up but ran a little rough. drove it for a couple of days and then mike and i changed the plugs...now its starting even when cold and running alot smoother too. thanks for all the help monster

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