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Don't ever take your car to a "detailer"

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Posted by: Kraze

Ok so I took my car to get detailed. Bad idea. When I go to pick it up I notice that they "steam cleaned" the engine. I don't know about steam cleaned, it looks, and feels, like they dumped a whole bucket of armor all over the engine. So I kind of just shrugged that off, I had used a gift certificate for the detail so it's not like I wasted any of my money.

But now here's where the problem is. I start my car and notice it's idling horribly. I think to myself.. ok, maybe there's just a little bit of water where it shouldn't be and it will dry out and everything will be fine. Well, I was wrong. It's running really rough at idle, almost feels like it's going to die. And then on acceleration it feels really rough too. I'm thinking maybe one or more of my cylinders are missing?

Well anyways, I get it home and I decide I'll replace two of my cop boots that some other idiot (ok fine, it was me lol) broke back when they were replacing the spark plugs. They had cracked and I just duct taped them back together until I could get new ones.

So anyways I get to them (wasn't easy being that everything was soaked in armor all so it was very greasy/slippery) and I pull them out. One of the boots is so bad that it doesn't come out with the connector and spring and just stays in the spark plug whole, but I end up getting it out. Now I notice my next problem.. my spark plug is sitting in about an inch of oil. Oh boy. So I do my best attempt to soak up the sitting oil by stuffing paper towels down in there. It worked moderately good.

Next problem. I put the boots on fairly easy, but now I go to put them back on the spark plugs and they just don't wanna stay on. They keep on popping back up (probably because of all the oil that coated the tops of the spark plugs.)

So at this point I'm beyond pissed. I just say screw it and put the cover back over the COP's and call it a night (I was already mad because I noticed my brand new headlight I had just put on was cracked to hell and a big chunk of my paint was missing.)

Now my question is what could they have done to cause these problems? It was running fine when I dropped it off. The car is a '97 Mark.

Thanks

Posted by: unity

Bad timing (coincidence)? Vacuum leak?

Those boots were bad, but the valve cover seals them up pretty good. My guess is that there is a vacuum leak. Check over all the hoses first. Steam could KILL a bad vacuum fitting. There is one at the back of the intake manifold, someone here has a pic, check it out.

Posted by: Kraze

Well I just did a visual check for any damaged hoses and I didn't see any. I'll do a more thorough check when it's light out though.

Also, my Xcal is saying there are no DTC's, so that's good I suppose.

Posted by: unity

Here is the thread:

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=39204

Look at the pic part way down the thread, right in the center of the pic you will see the fitting. If that bugger is dry-rotter you can bet steam killed it.

Posted by: Kraze

Both of those hoses look brand new on mine. Oh, that's probably from all the Armor All lol. But yeah, both of those are in good condition.

Anything else they could've messed up when they gave my engine a bath?

Posted by: unity

Off the top of my head, no. Steam cleaning is typically safe if done right since the hot water evaporates so fast.

I would still hunt around for a vacuum leak. You can do the ether trick and spray some around the engine and listen for a rev - but your pretty Armoral may spot.

Posted by: Kraze

Oh I could care less about the Armor all.. it looks way too fake anyways.

What can I use to try that trick? Will starting fluid work?

Posted by: unity

Starting fluid should work fine. Best to spray in little spurts.

Posted by: Kraze

I'll try that tomorrow then.

It also seems to be an intermittent problem. Sometimes it will idle fine and accelerate smoothly, but more often than not it idles real rough and is rough on the acceleration.

Posted by: unity

Well check the leak situation first is all I can suggest, from there move onto plug/COP and IAC etc...

Posted by: Kraze

What's the test for the IAC again? Is it just unplug it and see if the idle changes?

Posted by: unity

Ya, you can try that. Takes two seconds on a Gen II.

Posted by: Kraze

Well I'll tell you what happens with that tomorrow.

Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it!

Posted by: Icarus

I've taken my car to a detailer a few times now and very glad I did! The car turned out amazing, 1000x better than it did, especially considering what the paint looked like when I got it (it only had ever seen an automatic brush wash!) They did under the hood etc as well. No problems at all.
I would have had to spend many days literally to get the same results (I know because I did my old black '95 myself, I spent over 16 hours on it!)

Duct taping the boots like you mentioned would not help any and duct tape will not last under the hood, that would be the first place to look... If they keep popping up as you mention then they will not be making a good or any connection and will make the car run like crap.
In your case it may have just bought up an existing condition quicker by washing under the hood and dislodging dirt or a hose somewhere etc. It happens.
Sorry to be blunt, but it sounds like it has nothing to do with the detailers work and your poor attempt to fix a different problem that it causing it...

Posted by: turborich

I would NEVER ever take my ride to a detailer, a mechanic or anywhere else! There are way too many idiots out there that really have no clue & no respect. Besides I detail & repair my vehicles far better then any shop that I have seen yet.

Take your car back & tell them what's up! Either that or just start trouble shooting like you are now. You will figure it out sooner or later. Sorry to hear about your frustating experience.

Posted by: Kraze

I usually would never take my car to a detailer either, but I had a gift certificate for it so I figured I'd try it out. The guy did a horrible job. I can make it look the exact same with a nice hand wash and just some simple spray on/wipe off wax. AND I'd never use all that Armor All on my car (pretty obvious that I don't like Armor All huh? lol)

As for the boots, the duct tape was just a temporary fix until the boots came in to the dealership. And even with them being duct taped, the car still ran fine.. until I took it to the detailer. Now the boots are replaced though, but I'm guessing because of all the oil sitting around the spark plug that the boot isn't getting a good grip on the plug (not the detailer's fault at all.) I think after I put the cover back over the top of them they're probably held down pretty good though.

If it's not a simple fix like cleaning the IAC or a vacuum leak then I'm taking it back and requesting that they pay for whatever repairs it needs.

Posted by: XLRVIII

How could an auto detailer be held responsible for the leaking O-rings in your valve covers?

more than likely your getting a missfire because the oil is grounding out the spark plug.

I know this issue stayed "hidden" until a particular day, but I really dont see how a "detail job" could cause oil to leak from your valve cover O-Ring.

Now if your plug wells were full of WATER, then the detailer might have some liability for "drowning your motor"..

but its OIL from inside your engine causing the problem, not the water the detail guy sprayed.

Posted by: XLRVIII

P.S. I got a gift certificate for a FREE OIL CHANGE at PepBoys.

But.. I threw it in the trash where it belongs.

now your seeing how much "FREE" actually costs in the real world.

Posted by: brentalan

I had a similiar problem on my 97. Water got into the sparkplug wells and the COP shorted out. I had a C.E. light for a misfire. It actually happened at Geno's meet back in 2005

Posted by: MERIJONS97LSC

lack of maintenance is not the detailers fault.

Case in point, My friend had a 15 year old cutlass never had the radiator flushed, Then he had it flushed at the repair shop, and of course it leaked like a sieve, And of course he blamed the poor mechanic!!

Posted by: Kraze

Quote:

Originally Posted by XLRVIII

How could an auto detailer be held responsible for the leaking O-rings in your valve covers?

more than likely your getting a missfire because the oil is grounding out the spark plug.

I know this issue stayed "hidden" until a particular day, but I really dont see how a "detail job" could cause oil to leak from your valve cover O-Ring.

Now if your plug wells were full of WATER, then the detailer might have some liability for "drowning your motor"..

but its OIL from inside your engine causing the problem, not the water the detail guy sprayed.

I'm confused here. I said right in my post that the oil around the spark plugs was not the detailers fault. I'm just not sure if that's what's causing my problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brentalan

I had a similiar problem on my 97. Water got into the sparkplug wells and the COP shorted out. I had a C.E. light for a misfire. It actually happened at Geno's meet back in 2005

Yeah my car isn't throwing any codes so that's why I'm kind of wondering if it even is a misfire. And the problem seems to be worse after the car heats up, but it's still intermittent. It does pretty good when it's cold right after you start it.

There's also a strong, almost sulfur type smell coming from the exhaust. No idea what that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MERIJONS97LSC

lack of maintenance is not the detailers fault.

Case in point, My friend had a 15 year old cutlass never had the radiator flushed, Then he had it flushed at the repair shop, and of course it leaked like a sieve, And of course he blamed the poor mechanic!!

The car has never seen a lack in maintenance since I had it. The only reason I taped up the boots and put them back in like that was because no place in town had any boots in stock so I had to wait for the dealership to order them. Everything else has been maintained very well.

It just seems too coincidental that the very second that I started it up after it got detailed that it starts doing all this. Especially when it was running fine when I dropped it off.

Posted by: NateRW21

Ya know... the 00-early 03 LS's have leaky valve cover gaskets... it's pretty much one of those things that you expect to do (if you're informed)... kind of like a 60k mile service. And to be honest, that is exactly what it sounds like to me.

The oil got there somehow... if your PCV is fine, then you just need to do a gasket replacement.

Posted by: unity

I still say vacuum leak.

Your getting a bad smell from the exhaust and its rough idle. I really think its vacuum still.

Posted by: NateRW21

Could be a vacuum leak... use starter fluid....

But you still have an issue with oil in your plug wells... that will cause you problems at some point if not addressed!

Posted by: turborich

Quote:

Originally Posted by unity

I still say vacuum leak.

Your getting a bad smell from the exhaust and its rough idle. I really think its vacuum still.

I would probally agree. The high pressure could have knocked something loose or even caused a vacuum line to fail. Have you check all of your spark plug holes for water? That could explain the exhaust smell too.

I think that it is fair to say that maintenance issues didn't cause this to happen since everything was in working order before hand. I just don't buy that. Something had to of happened while at the detailer. It might be very simple. Just a matter of finding the issue.

Posted by: devilchild

when i bought my 96 the engine was covered in afro-sheen.. or whatever you wanna call it that makes engines and plastic parts all shiny looking...

car was also running rough...

all i did was replace the serpentine belt ( which had that sh!t all over it)..

ran perfect after that... i think it was slippping due to the excessive amount of detailing crap on it...

as for the oil in the plug tubes... i had that problem on my honda.. replaced the spark plug tube seals and ended that problem.. Pita!!.. no idea if mark viiis have the same type of seals though

Posted by: NateRW21

I believe you have to pull the covers and replace a little rubber seal on each hole.

Posted by: devilchild

Quote:

Originally Posted by NateRW21

I believe you have to pull the covers and replace a little rubber seal on each hole.

hopefully it's that simple... i had to pull the head on my honda to get to the seals since there were upper and lower seals...

haha.. i said head

Posted by: Icarus

Clean up the oil/change the plugs etc (do whatever you need to, to get the plug tunnels bone dry and free of oil and replace the boots/plugs.) Don't forget to use dielectric grease on the new boots.
If that doesn't cure the problem start looking for vacuum leaks like the guys mentioned, and maybe talk to the detailer to see if he will help out then...
I can't remember if there is a filter under a cap on the Evap sensor, IAC etc that may be blocked up, might be worth looking into as well.

Posted by: Kraze

Well I dropped the car off at the mechanics. I talked to the owner of the detail place first, and after him basically calling me a liar, I got him to agree to foot the bill if he's at fault.

I never got a chance to check for vacuum leaks with the starter fluid, but I'm sure my mechanic will catch that if it's the problem.

And I'll have them take care of the valve cover gasket/tower boots too while it's there.

Thanks for all the help! I'll let everyone know what the verdict is.

Posted by: XLRVIII

Quote:

Originally Posted by unity

I still say vacuum leak.

Your getting a bad smell from the exhaust and its rough idle. I really think its vacuum still.

Unity is correct in regards to vacuum leak.

now what most people dont realize is when the little oring gaskets in the valve covers start to leak oil into the plug wells..
THEY ARE ALSO A SOURCE OF A VACUUM Leak.

Think about it... PCV valve in the valve cover PCV line goes into the intake manifold..
... leaking orings in the valve cover.. WALA.... unmetered air entering the engine!

Checkmate.

Posted by: XLRVIII

"I never got a chance to check for vacuum leaks with the starter fluid, but I'm sure my mechanic will catch that if it's the problem."

If the mechanic isn't intimately familar with these engines then he'll likely NEVER think that the plug well could be the source of the vacuum leak.

There is so much vacuum related crap on these cars, unless you are very careful it's very easy to overlook something that is covered up..and you cant see it.

Posted by: Kraze

Well.. my car is still at the mechanics. So far they've taken out about a gallon of water from the engine and replaced two more boots but it's still not running right, so it will be there over the weekend.

Posted by: XLRVIII

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kraze

Well.. my car is still at the mechanics. So far they've taken out about a gallon of water from the engine and replaced two more boots but it's still not running right, so it will be there over the weekend.

wow that is odd, I wonder where all that water is coming from?

I dont think the plug wells could hold that much water.

that is very odd... please keep us posted/updated.

Posted by: The_purple_lincoln_slayer

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilchild

hopefully it's that simple... i had to pull the head on my honda to get to the seals since there were upper and lower seals...

haha.. i said head

Goodone.

Posted by: vr4

my money is on misfire due to the oil and carbon tracking on the plug(s).

once the carbon tracking starts you need to replace both the boot/wire AND the spark plug or it will continue and damage whatever you replaced.

Posted by: Kraze

Ok so the mechanics still don't know what's wrong with my car. The valve cover gasket has been replaced and all oil was cleaned from the spark plug tubes, and all water from the engine has been removed too. It's not a vacuum leak either. All the coils and plugs are good now, but it still has a misfire. It's a random misfire that they can't pinpoint to anything.

Any more ideas? I'm thinking about have the dealership check it out when I take it in for the recall.. I hate dealerships

Posted by: Markviiiedrea

Kraze, thats crazy talk man! Find another mechanic. Hell put an add on craigslist for a MARK VIII mechanic if you have too. Just dont go to the steelership!!!

If I have read this thread right (probably didn't) you still haven’t replaced the plugs and wire's yet, Like VR4 said it sounds like carbon tracking.

Posted by: Kraze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markviiiedrea

Kraze, thats crazy talk man! Find another mechanic. Hell put an add on craigslist for a MARK VIII mechanic if you have too. Just dont go to the steelership!!!

If I have read this thread right (probably didn't) you still haven’t replaced the plugs and wire's yet, Like VR4 said it sounds like carbon tracking.

No wires (gen 2) but yes I forgot to mention all the plugs have been replaced, along with all the boots that were ruined by the water. And it has to go to the dealership for the recall anyways.

I'm thinking about just doing a couple cheap things to see if it helps any. PCV valve, sea foam, injector cleaner. I know it's a long, long shot but why not. It could use it anyways.

Posted by: Icarus

Did you replace all the boots, or just a couple? If only a few, how old are the others?

Posted by: Kraze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarus

Did you replace all the boots, or just a couple? If only a few, how old are the others?

There's a total of 4 new ones. The two I replaced, and the two the mechanic replaced. This mechanic has always been good in the past so I trusted him on only needing to replace 2 more. But who knows how old the other ones are, I certainly don't lol.

Posted by: Icarus

If your unsure, I'd replace them to start as well as the tune up stuff you mentioned, as you said, it won't hurt

Posted by: Kraze

True. I'm thinking about going with the Motoblue connector kit, that just looks so much better than the stock ones. I'm just getting tired of throwing money at the problem without knowing for sure what's wrong. Looks like that's what I have to do in this case though.

Posted by: Icarus

See if your mechanic has a good scanner that he can check the sensors etc out in real time. Then he can see if they are staying in spec.
How bad is it missing now? Is it just during idle, or at cruise and decel too? Stalling? OBD II cars will sets codes for bad misfires...

Posted by: Kraze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarus

See if your mechanic has a good scanner that he can check the sensors etc out in real time. Then he can see if they are staying in spec.
How bad is it missing now? Is it just during idle, or at cruise and decel too? Stalling?

I can datalog with my Xcal if I knew what parameters I should be logging. But I'll see if he can do this, or if he already did it.

It's missing at both idle and acceleration. It's intermittent though, but when it's missing, it's missing bad. And it seems like it needs to get warmed up for it to happen. The mechanic said it would drive fine for the first half of the test drive, but then on the way back it would start missing again. And they did plenty of test drives.

Posted by: XLRVIII

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kraze

OBDII scanner should show a code for the missfire.
The last digit of the code should indicate THE cylinder that IS missfiring.

You mentioned your Xcal, and I hate to even bring this up...

BUT.. can you flash your PCM back to stock and see if the missfire is still present?

Since you are "this deep" into this issue, "I" would replace the remaining boots as well...just to be on the safe side.

Posted by: TriumphGT6

As far as the detail went, I haven't done a detail on a car for less than $200. I just got burnt out doing it and I was 18.

I just do my own stuff and the occasional favor.

The key on an engine detail is to know not to steam or power wash it. Some cars you will severely f*** up the distributor; example being LT1 Corvettes and F-Bodies have the Optispark that is easy to screw up with water(esp. the unvented optis). I always go in with microfibers and simple green to clean the engine, then use Aerospace 303 to give it a clean, not greasy look. Too many things can go wrong when you try to steam clean or power wash an engine, so I just don't. A good detailer is worth their weight in gold, and sure as s*** will never give away a detail, maybe a wash here and there for a good customer, but that's about it.

Also, what codes is it throwing(if it is), like PO300? Or is it more specific?

No matter what, hope this works out for you.

Posted by: vr4

post the codes if it has any. if youre good with someone at a dealer see if theyll do a power balance for you. that will pinpoint the misfire to a specific cylinder. if its an intermittant miss itll be an ignition problem 99.99999% of the time.

Posted by: Kraze

It hasn't thrown any codes. It goes to the dealership on Friday, I'll see about the power balance thing then.

The misfire is a lot less noticeable after the new plugs, boots, and valve cover gasket though.

Posted by: 98LSC32V

Have them do a power balance and a relative compression check which takes like a minute to do.