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John McCain vs. John McCain

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Posted by: fossten

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioy90nF2anI

Posted by: StankinLincoln

thank you for posting this video. i know a bunch of people who like him and i always tell them that he changes what he says to agree with whomever on whatever topic it is. your political insights are filled with great intelligence. of course the most honest and person best suited for presidency is hillary clinton we all know that lol. i love that sig you have with her

Posted by: Calabrio

Wouldn't vote for the man in a primary,
but he has a remarkable biography and he's a patriotic American.

His has virtually no chance of winning the primary so he's of little consequence. The rumor that he's considered selecting Joe Lieberman as his VP, factored with his poor health, will turn off even more primary voters.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

Wouldn't vote for the man in a primary,
but he has a remarkable biography and he's a patriotic American.

His has virtually no chance of winning the primary so he's of little consequence. The rumor that he's considered selecting Joe Lieberman as his VP, factored with his poor health, will turn off even more primary voters.

Beyond the fact that you're a thread whore bordering on trollishness, you're repeating yourself. How many times do you have to say, "...biography...patriotic..." it's sickening. The man is NOT patriotic. His record as Senator demonstrates this. Hell, he couldn't even keep 5 planes flying in Vietnam.

But you go ahead and defend him. This will be like dynamiting fish in a bucket.

Posted by: MAC1

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioy90nF2anI

This is a misleading video. First, McCain said he believes the U.S. could win an overwhelming victory, which doesn't mean such victory will be easy. McCain did not back off his view that the U.S. will win an "overwhelming victory." Also, McCain has been a consistent stanch supporter of the War and our troops despite many in congress who have flip-flopped.

Secondly, Falwell and McCain had disagreements which they settled. And if my memory serves me correctly, as a result, McCain accepted an invitation to speak a Liberty University's commencement.

Third, as far as gay marriage, it does look like McCain changed his position during the interview. However, the question asked was whether he believes gay marriage should be allowed, not whether it should be legalized. Later in the interview he clarified that he does not support legalizing gay marriage—which position he has not changed. Other than this weak example of a flip-flop, if anyone has anything else showing McCain has changed his position on gay marriage, please feel free to post.

The video is very weak as far as having anything substantive to discredit McCain over.

Posted by: Calabrio

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

You question the man's patriotism?

The mere fact that you may disagree with some political decisions he's made does not make him "unpatriotic" or deserving of any of the angry, hate you're inclined to spew. Why can't you simply disagree with a person without declaring that the they are evil, unpatriotic, or things to that effect?

His biography is extremely interesting. His service to the country is noble and worthy of praise and respect. You should be ashamed of yourself, I wish someone else here had scolded you for saying that "he couldn't even keep 5 planes flying in Vietnam." I presume that everyone simply ignored your ignorant, troll-like behavior... however, I'll take the bait.

Explain how a man who volunteered for combat assignments in Vietnam is unpatriotic.

You said he "couldn't keep 5 planes flying in Vietnam." I doubt you know the details of what he went through, instead you seem content to simply repeat the attack.

First of all, he didn't lose "5 planes flying in Vietnam."

Second, I don't think he crashed 5 planes in his entire career as a naval aviator either. I know of 4 events, 2 happened while he was still in training, and the other two things happened after he left his safe job as a flight instructor and volunteered for repeated combat assignments in Vietnam.

While on the aircraft career, another F-4 accidentally fired rockets across the carrier deck striking McCain's fighter. McCain had to climb out of his burning A-4, jump off the nose, as the bombs on his jet exploded, striking him with shrapnel in his chest and legs. 132 sailors were killed in the fire.

When he was ultimately shot down over Hanoi, he'd been on over 20 bombing missions. He broke his arms and legs ejecting after being struck by a SAM missile. Landed in a lake, then was attacked by a mob of North Vietnamese who struck him and stabbed him. Only to wind up in a North Vietnamese torture camp for 5 years.....

And you have the nerve to condescend his patriotism and service?
You should be ashamed of yourself.

And in terms of his politics:

His lifetime conservative union rating score is 82.3.
Duncan Hunter has a score of 88.
In contrast, someone like Hillary Clinton has a score of 8.

And while I'd agree that the McCain/Feingold bill was a horrible piece of legislation, one that should have been deemed unconstitutional, that hardly means that the man is evil or unpatriotic.

I've found myself increasingly interested with the McCain candidacy. I don't intend to vote for him in the primary, but I do identify with the appeal. This is especially true in the shadow of the recent assassination of Bhutto in Pakistan, having a leader with his foreign policy experience and judgment is appealing. I also like how he IS principled. Like him or not, he does what he thinks he's right. He's the only guy running in Iowa AGAINST ethanol subsidies, in favor of cutting agricultural subsidies. That doesn't sound like a guy pandering for votes to me, and I like that. And in fairness, some of the decisions he made in the past that I was critical of him on, such as the "Gang of 14", have shown him to be vindicated. Good judges were nominated and the same filibuster technique has been employed by the Republicans to maintain funding for the war since the '06 change of leadership.

I'm not campaigning as a McCain supporter, I also tend to think he's too old and worry about his health were he elected President, but I'd be comfortable if he won the nomination and I absolutely have respect for the man. He does deserve respect, whether you disagree with him only 17.7% of the time or not.

Posted by: fossten

THE. MAN. TRIED. TO. PASS. AMNESTY.

He is NOT a patriot.

Bugger off, troll.

Posted by: Calabrio

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

THE. MAN. TRIED. TO. PASS. AMNESTY.

He is NOT a patriot.

Bugger off, troll.

That's your argument?
That's the "dynamite in a barrel" you pretend to posses?

Since you lack detail, I'll provide them, so that I can respond to another of your thoughtless, hostile posts.

Fossten says that John McCain is NOT a patriot because he supported the McCain-Kennedy Immigration Bill, also known as the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act of 2005. Because Fossten doesn't agree with it, he lashes out and challenges the patriotism and the decency of a distinguished American veteran.

In short, the bill stated that the U.S. would provide annually 400k foreigner workers a three year visa. Illegals already in the country would required to register, pay a $2,000, pass a criminal background check, pass an English exam, and demonstrate the they had a job before they were able to apply for citizenship after six more years. And It would increase the fines for employers who hired illegals and provide for some additional border security.

But because Fossten disagrees with the most effective way of dealing with the estimated 12,000,000 illegals currently within the country, anyone who supported the bill is UNPATRIOTIC.

The bill wasn't "unpatriotic," it's major failing was that it lacked sufficient emphasis on measures to strengthen the border. "Patriotism" had nothing to do with it...

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

Giving amnesty to 12 million illegals is unpatriotic in the extreme. LOL you are an idiot. Do you know how long that amnesty bill was? There is no "in short" to describe that monstrosity. And you support that? Welcome to the WRONG side of American opinion. In case you didn't hear, Americans stood up and rejected that bill. More evidence that you are NOT a conservative.

McCain is NOT a patriot, despite your re-tarded arguments to the contrary. I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Ah, well, there's no arguing with a troll.

Posted by: Calabrio

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

Giving amnesty to 12 million illegals is unpatriotic in the extreme. LOL you are an idiot.

So you're argument is that merely disagreeing with you is "unpatriotic." Despite the man's service to the military and commitment to the country, you're entire argument is "LOL you are an idiot."

Perhaps I missed part of your moving, influential, well supported argument, but frankly, it's not convincing me of anything.

You also never address how you were wrong to mischaracterize his service as a Naval Aviator. Or his respectable Conservative Union voting record.

Quote:

Do you know how long that amnesty bill was? There is no "in short" to describe that monstrosity.

Are you telling me that my summarization was incorrect? What major part of it did I leave out? Was there a part about surrendering sovereignty that I failed to mention?

Quote:

And you support that? Welcome to the WRONG side of American opinion. In case you didn't hear, Americans stood up and rejected that bill. More evidence that you are NOT a conservative.

Actually, I didn't support the McCain-Kennedy Bill, largely due to it's lack of focus on border enforcement. My disagreement with McCain doesn't mean I'm going to question the Patriotism of the legislater responsible for it. That's childish behavior and intellectually lazy.

Quote:

McCain is NOT a patriot, despite your re-tarded arguments to the contrary. I'm not the only one who thinks so.

So, you're argument that McCain is not a patriot is the following:
1. You don't agree with him on everything.
2. People that don't agree with you are retarded and unpatriotic.
3. You're not the only person who agrees with you.

Did I miss something?
Do you not realize how ridiculous that looks?

Quote:

Ah, well, there's no arguing with a troll.

Yeah, you've demonstrated that again- yet I keep giving you the opportunity to redeem yourself and rise above that troll label you've earned.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

So you're argument is that merely disagreeing with you is "unpatriotic."

You obviously cannot read. I did not make that argument. Your argument is because you were able to summarize SOME PARTS of the UBER-long Comprehensive Immigration Bill, John McCain must be a patriot. That's absurd and idiotic. But nice try at making the discussion about me as usual.

Quote:

Despite the man's service to the military and commitment to the country, you're entire argument is "LOL you are an idiot."

My argument is that he has abandoned his country and his party through his bad decisions as Senator, especially of late. This is an opinion shared by many conservatives. The fact that you are blind to this is pathetic and shows how truly ignorant you are. Thus: My statement that you are an idiot is a separate unassailable fact.

Quote:

Perhaps I missed part of your moving, influential, well supported argument, but frankly, it's not convincing me of anything.

Not interested in convincing an idiotic, sarcastic, pusillanimous troll like you of ANYTHING. You will recall that I did not originally address you. I simply posted a thread and you came in post whoring. I am interested in why you seem to have such a hard on for trolling in all my threads. Maybe you are still in the closet and are desperately seeking a way out...

Quote:

You also never address how you were wrong to mischaracterize his service as a Naval Aviator. Or his respectable Conservative Union voting record.

His Conservative Union voting record means nothing to me. That's simply someone else's opinion, which actually would be more valuable than yours. It's as helpful as polls are before elections. His SENATE VOTING RECORD is far more important. My comment about his losing 5 planes in the war was flippant and meant to push your whiny little button, which it very easily did. You are so easily provoked, Mr. Moderator. Temper, temper! Have you followed my advice about anger management yet?

Quote:

Are you telling me that my summarization was incorrect? What major part of it did I leave out? Was there a part about surrendering sovereignty that I failed to mention?

Your summarization was irrelevant. It is your interpretation of the bill that is pathetic. The fact that you cannot debate the inner workings of the bill without resorting to ad hominem personal attacks shows that you are unfit to be a moderator.

Quote:

What a FASCINATING response!

Oh, so NOW you don't support it? Yet you tried to summarize it in a context that implies that McCain was doing the right thing by pushing it? You are a double talking, lying fool and you are now backpedaling so fast an Aegis cruiser couldn't track you.

Quote:

Wrong as usual. Nice try at mischaracterizing my argument.

Your argument is as follows:
1. You agreed with the bill before you disagreed with it.
2. Therefore the man is a patriot.

Quote:

Did I miss something?

Yes, the ability to debate properly.

Quote:

Do you not realize how ridiculous that looks?

Quote:

Yeah, you've demonstrated that again- yet I keep giving you the opportunity to redeem yourself

Your narcissism and ass are both on display here. YOU give me the opportunity to redeem myself? Oh, how generous! I should realize that you are trying to HELP me! Oh, forgive me for misunderstanding your sarcastic, incessant attacks as attempts to convince! And here I mistakenly thought all this time that you were just being an a s s hole! Well, as you've said, you are the thoughtful, insightful, calm one, right?

Face it, Moderator, you are nothing but a post whoring, attack-dog troll with no core principles and no courage to stand by your own statements. Keep backpedaling though, it's amusing.

Quote:

and rise above that troll label you've earned.

LOL - "I know you are but what am I?" Wow, you've moved up into the 5th grade level of insults - CONGRATULATIONS.

Posted by: Maxb49

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

It's been nine months since you posted this. How do you square your current position with this post Fossten?

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxb49

It's been nine months since you posted this. How do you square your current position with this post Fossten?

Hey necro boy, I've changed my mind. Have you got some personal issue with me? You certainly don't know me well enough to have a hard on for me yet, so maybe you should back up a little.

Posted by: Maxb49

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

Hey necro boy, I've changed my mind. Have you got some personal issue with me? You certainly don't know me well enough to have a hard on for me yet, so maybe you should back up a little.

What's with all the sexually charged language?

You've changed your mind? So whom are we to trust, the Fossten nine months ago, the Fossten now? The Fossten nine months from now?

I found this post hysterically funny, for someone who speaks with such conviction you seem to change your mind pretty easily. So you were wrong? What say you now?

This isn't a personal attack. You made this post nine months ago. The questions I have for you speak strictly to your published positions. So what's the big deal of someone asks you questions regarding your publicized posts? If you don't want people asking you questions why join an Internet community and make this stuff public? You post here (apparently) daily and speak with such conviction with the presumption that people should take what you're saying as gospel. Well here you call McCain unpatriotic. In numerous threads you're absolutely positive that the man is unfit for office. Now you love this guy. Mind telling us what's goin on here?

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxb49

What's with all the sexually charged language?

You've changed your mind? So whom are we to trust, the Fossten nine months ago, the Fossten now? The Fossten nine months from now?

I found this post hysterically funny, for someone who speaks with such conviction you seem to change your mind pretty easily. So you were wrong? What say you now?

This isn't a personal attack. You made this post nine months ago. You post here (apparently) daily and speak with such conviction with the presumption that people should take what you're saying as gospel. Well here you call McCain unpatriotic. In numerous threads you're absolutely positive that the man is unfit for office. Now you love this guy. Mind telling us what's goin on here?

Dude. You don't know me, and you're new. Take a little time before you start blazing your guns around here. And don't mischaracterize my statements. I never said I love this guy.

Don't trust anything I say. Personally I don't care, as you've already started hurling insults here. I can see that discussing things with you will be a waste of time, as you're more interested in talking points and ad hominem arguments rather than debating issues on the merits.

Or are you a sock puppet?

Posted by: Maxb49

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

These aren't ad hominem attacks. I'm questioning you about your position. Loosen up, you're a cool guy with an opposing viewpoint.

What's with the switch of position?

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxb49

These aren't ad hominem attacks. I'm questioning you about your position. Loosen up, you're a cool guy with an opposing viewpoint.

What's with the switch of position?

You are using ad hominem because you're making the argument about me.

If you are capable of necroing a 9-month old thread, then you should be able to find the thread where I explained this. I'm not going to do your research for you.

Buh-bye now.

Posted by: fossten

I just remembered why I don't need to respond to this troll. This is what he said to me in March:

Quote:

Amateur is what you are. You type away because you're an angry, white coward, incapable of debate.