Lincoln vs Cadillac Forums

(This is the forums archive - If you want to get back to the main site simply click the banner above and you will be taken to our homepage.)

Lincoln vs Cadillac Forums is the Ultimate Online Resource for Owners and Enthusiasts of American Luxury Cars. Feel free to browse through our archive - but make sure you make it back to our main site - Lincoln vs Cadillac Forums

Cadillac XLR : Cadillac CTS : Cadillac : 2005 Cadillac STS : Cadillac Forums : 2000 Lincoln LS : Lincoln Mark VIII : Lincoln Mark VII : Car Wax
Lincoln Town Car : Lincoln Air Suspension : Lincoln Continental : Lemon Law : Do It Yourself Car Repair : Lincoln vs Cadillac Forums : Mesothelioma

Back to the Archive Main Page

Pages: 1

we all need 400rwhp 6spd LS's with LSD's...

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: thethirdeye88

come on guys...lets band together to show these BMW and AMG guys up!!!...

Posted by: '00GrayGhost

Hell yeah! I'm with you. I need to win the lottery frirst, though.

Posted by: HyeLifeLS

Yep, good luck to you two

Posted by: Kelleyo

Quote:

Originally Posted by thethirdeye88

come on guys...lets band together to show these BMW and AMG guys up!!!...

If Lincoln had done it I would not have gotten an M5

At this point I found it safer to get a car with what I wanted that was under warranty than to take the risk and do a heavily modified LS.

Posted by: 97stscaddy

Got 10 grand I can borrow? I could do it with 10 grand pretty easy.

Slap a nice SC Cobra motor in it mated to a Tremec 6 speed transmission, do the 4:10 swap, gut all the electronics and rewire it with some stuff that will actually work.

Here's the thing though... For the money, the AMGs and BMW Ms will be more reliable. They have Billions of dollars sunk into the research and development of their products. You could build a fast LS for a couple grand no problem, but to do it right, make it tough and reliable will take some money, and will probably not be worth it in the end. Its not just speed that matters anymore. You've gotta be able to turn, and more importantly, you need to be able to stop. You also need the frame and chassis of the car to be able to handle the extra power. Bigger driveshaft, larger axles, tougher balljoints, better hubs that are built to handle high speeds with ease.

Posted by: chocolat1701

yup hopefully lincoln will come out with a REAL LS replacement and add some muscle to it

Posted by: NateRW21

AMG's and M's are also $60-70k plus new... the LS topped out at around what, $40k?

Sometimes (aka almost always)... if you want to play... you gotta pay.

Posted by: Rodewaryer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelleyo

If Lincoln had done it I would not have gotten an M5

At this point I found it safer to get a car with what I wanted that was under warranty than to take the risk and do a heavily modified LS.

You definitely chose right, M5's are serious business.

Posted by: SoonerLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by NateRW21

AMG's and M's are also $60-70k plus new... the LS topped out at around what, $40k?

The top MSRP for a V8 LS was around $48K (the 2nd Gen V8s started at ~$40K). That's still significantly less than an M5 or anything AMG.

Posted by: thethirdeye88

GAAAHHHHH!!!!!!....whyyy...lincoln...why must you curse us...but i really love the car, and its very fun in the rain...kinda feels like its got a bunch of power then...but i really like the ///M3's...especially that ///M3 CSL!...

Posted by: HyeLifeLS

http://youtube.com/watch?v=N9w4nMqjgCQ&feature=related

CSL is theeeee

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97stscaddy

Got 10 grand I can borrow? I could do it with 10 grand pretty easy.

Slap a nice SC Cobra motor in it mated to a Tremec 6 speed transmission, do the 4:10 swap, gut all the electronics and rewire it with some stuff that will actually work.

10 grand would be a little bit of an understatement there.

Posted by: d-i-s-t-o-r-t-e-d

Quote:

Originally Posted by thethirdeye88

GAAAHHHHH!!!!!!....whyyy...lincoln...why must you curse us...but i really love the car, and its very fun in the rain...kinda feels like its got a bunch of power then...but i really like the ///M3's...especially that ///M3 CSL!...

Then again you can't drive the CSL in the rain or even cold weather. lol

Posted by: thethirdeye88

understatement?...HA!...but yeah, a 4.6 mated to a T-56 and a stout rear end, $h!t ton of braces would be a monster...talk about a sleeper...hmmm...how difficult would that be?...i mean, painless could take care of all the wiring and MSD could take care of all the electronics...just remove all of the factory electronics and replace with aftermarket...in theory it sounds like it would work...but would a 4.6 fit?...for being so small they are huge...and a t-56 might be a little big for the tranny tunnel, but you can always cut that out and weld in a new one...they make them, probably get one at jegs, summit, or year one...

Posted by: thethirdeye88

Quote:

Originally Posted by d-i-s-t-o-r-t-e-d

Then again you can't drive the CSL in the rain or even cold weather. lol

why would you want to drive a CSL in the rain?...and how cold of weather?...not to mention you would be dropping so much cash for one that you would definitely have a spare vehicle...how much are CSL's?...

Posted by: NateRW21

Quote:

Originally Posted by thethirdeye88

understatement?...HA!...but yeah, a 4.6 mated to a T-56 and a stout rear end, $h!t ton of braces would be a monster...talk about a sleeper...hmmm...how difficult would that be?...i mean, painless could take care of all the wiring and MSD could take care of all the electronics...just remove all of the factory electronics and replace with aftermarket...in theory it sounds like it would work...but would a 4.6 fit?...for being so small they are huge...and a t-56 might be a little big for the tranny tunnel, but you can always cut that out and weld in a new one...they make them, probably get one at jegs, summit, or year one...

I think you severely understate the complexities of such an endeavor. making a 4.6L w/T-56 FIT wouldn't be that bad. But painless doesn't make harnesses for the 4.6L, and MSD only does ignition add-on's; you still require a factory computer.

Mod motors aren't that inexpensive to build; we're not talking 350's and 5.0's here. To give you some prospective... a rotating assembly capable of holding about 600 HP will run you upwards of $1600-$1700; throw in the forged crank and you'll be looking at the high side of the teens, low $2000. Plus you've got block prep... punch it, align-hone the mains and deck it... about another $400-$500. Stage III PI heads from patriot: $2000, Gasket set: $300, ARP mains and head studs: $400. Water pump and HV/HP oil pump... $500 So you've got a long-block minus intake and cams... you've already dumped $5200 on the low side. This isn't including your forced induction. Best case scenario in an N/A application that would be street-able, you might hit 350-380 RWHP.

Turbo set-up: $3000-$4000
Required engine electronics (COP units, MAF, Throttle body, fuel injectors, fuel system able to support 600+ HP, so on and so on): $2500ish

As you can see, you've already burnt through better than $10,000... and that's just to be able to run the engine and get the kind of power out of it you want.

Add in a built T-56 (long term reliability becomes questionable once you hit the 600HP mark): $2500
Custom drive shaft, half shafts and a Detroit or Eaton LSD or Locker: $2500
Fabrication to add additional uni-body support, build up the rear end, custom manufacture aluminum bushings for the IRS... I'd guess that would start out around the $2500 mark.

Already up to over $18K and things such as radiator, ECU set-up, tuning, fabrication of various mounts and accessories... still aren't accounted for.

To do the kind of thing you're talking about would cost easily $25k or more. Basically you're talking about running a mustang or cobra with an LS body. Take your $25k, go buy an 03 Cobra for $20k... throw the other $5k into a kenne bell blower, toss another $5k on top of it for a Maximum Motorsports suspension and you'll have a 600RWHP car that will eat factory Z-06 Vette's for lunch... all for half the price.

Sometimes things just are not practical... Is it do-able? Absolutely... But is it cost effective? No way! For $4-5K you could have forged rods and crank made for the 3.9, another $5k to get a turbo installed and maybe $4k for drive-line mods and you'll have your 400-450 RWHP... for under $15k. This is why swapping between engine families just is not popular these days; the cost is rarely worth the results.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by thethirdeye88

understatement?...HA!...

What do I know? I only do this stuff for a living....and have also done swaps of similar complexity to the one described before.

Posted by: cammerfe

In pure go-fast, you would have to spend about 1K to duplicate my LS. I've sprayed as much as a 150 shot on gas without hurting anything. DIY, adding the methanol requires the fuel cell, the pump, filter and the bypass regulator plus lines and fittings. The methanol is easier on the engine. To go further, the cost of new parts for extra strength is---$750 for core 4.0 Jag engine, $600-$800 each for forged pistons and rods, and cost for cyl honing, balancing, and gaskets. I do my own assembly. Machine work varies by locality; I don't have gaskets yet. I believe you can get a 300 HP boost with the above; then add a pair of turbos and go on from there.You'll need an up-graded trans.

For extra traction, I have about $3500 in tires and wheels. To complete the job, I'll get another rear suspension and fit a 9" center section. Go to custom half shafts and driveshaft and cross-breed hub carriers. Brakes will depend on other components. By careful consideration in the catalog, Koni shocks are possible.

You have no idea what can be done 'til you read a few 'ricer' magazines. Six cylinder Toyota engines will stay together remarkably at 1K HP if you choose components wisely. The basic design of the Jag family of V-8 engine is better than the Toy I-6. The 4.6 requires cutting the hood of an LS or installing a dry-sump. The combo of turbos and spray/methanol makes for a mild engine with a hellacious potential. (See my comments in the HP section under 'Land Speed LS' and the build by IllS).

At the end of the day, my LS owes me nothing. I bought it new and have 111K miles on it. Any necessary work was done by the dealer during the 5K visits for oil, and I had a Lincoln loaner. I've personally replaced one coil. I'm on my second set of brakes and third set of tires. At present, I need a clockspring and the driver's seat heater quit several days ago.

If you want to play 'Whose is biggest', for the cost of a foreign super-sedan, you can have a Cobra Kit Car built that'll eat alive anything with four doors, and have enough left over to buy an Explorer for winter.

I'll drive my LS year around as I have since new. And with the original engine and trans and a few judicious additions, I hold TWO one-mile Land Speed Records.

KenS from Ben's Place

Posted by: NateRW21

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammerfe

If you want to play 'Whose is biggest', for the cost of a foreign super-sedan, you can have a Cobra Kit Car built that'll eat alive anything with four doors, and have enough left over to buy an Explorer for winter.

Yup...

The "super-sedan's" as you call them are nice... but, if you're not the type to live in a multi-million dollar home and give Cadillacs for Christmas presents... There are a lot better routes to go; Cheaper cars that perform on a totally different level (far above). Besides, most people buy those cars for the "look at me factor". Not for the performance; when you want a sports car, you don't buy a sedan... you buy the SPORTS CAR. When you want to show how much money you have, you buy an AMG.

Posted by: SlickLS

If you have $12000 you can just send your LS off to McLaren and they will do a ton of things to it. They say it will put down 350rwhp. They also to a full suspension and brakes. Its a roots style supercharger that they use to get you the extra ponies. That is if you have $12000 and another car so you can be without your LS.

Posted by: thethirdeye88

yeah, the whole 4.6/T-56 idea is a pipe dream, but it would be Oh so cool...but what i am going to do is just get a CAI, exhaust and one of those SCT Xcal2's...i know it doesnt put me THAT far ahead for the HP and TQ, but it will help out alot...but a forged rotating assembly would be super nice, and if you added in ported and polished heads would be beneficial as well...but i think i will just stick with basic bolt ons and that SCT, wait and save some money and pick up an ///M3...i love those, but i also love the LS...only ones i see around here are bone stock...i only have wheels, tires, Eibach kit, and brakes at the moment, but its fun to roll up next to them and see the difference...i'm wanting a spare hood, trunk and mirrors so i can paint them black to really set it off...

but those 2jz's are mean...so are the SR20's, and the not so new VQ's...those japs have their sh!t down...plus i love me some drifting...tire smoking goodness...BBQ rubber...giggity...

Posted by: 97stscaddy

Quote:

10 grand would be a little bit of an understatement there

Hey, I didn't say it would be NEW stuff.

Posted by: NateRW21

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlickLS

If you have $12000 you can just send your LS off to McLaren and they will do a ton of things to it. They say it will put down 350rwhp. They also to a full suspension and brakes. Its a roots style supercharger that they use to get you the extra ponies. That is if you have $12000 and another car so you can be without your LS.

Dude... where do you get this FOCKED UP information??? This is like the 3rd time you've thrown something out there that is totally 100% wrong... as in... it's been beaten to death a long time ago that it's wrong.

McLaren never finished the prototype car, they don't have any kits, they don't do work on LS's... sh!t, I'm pretty sure the "McLaren" grill isn't even made by McLaren; I believe it's a copy of their prototype.

Research stuff before you commit it to writing; it'll make you look a lot less "slow".

Posted by: NateRW21

Quote:

Originally Posted by thethirdeye88

yeah, the whole 4.6/T-56 idea is a pipe dream, but it would be Oh so cool...but what i am going to do is just get a CAI, exhaust and one of those SCT Xcal2's...i know it doesnt put me THAT far ahead for the HP and TQ, but it will help out alot...but a forged rotating assembly would be super nice, and if you added in ported and polished heads would be beneficial as well...but i think i will just stick with basic bolt ons and that SCT, wait and save some money and pick up an ///M3...i love those, but i also love the LS...only ones i see around here are bone stock...i only have wheels, tires, Eibach kit, and brakes at the moment, but its fun to roll up next to them and see the difference...i'm wanting a spare hood, trunk and mirrors so i can paint them black to really set it off...

but those 2jz's are mean...so are the SR20's, and the not so new VQ's...those japs have their sh!t down...plus i love me some drifting...tire smoking goodness...BBQ rubber...giggity...

Everyone is entitled to their choice in forms of "racing"....

BUT

Drifting is absolutely retarded if you ask me. First, it's subjective; there is no statistical, solid basis for determining who "wins". Second, I really do not see the point in power-sliding around a track. Third, it isn't really racing at all; if it were racing (which is based upon numerical figures... aka.. time), they wouldn't be power-sliding around the track because that gives up huge amounts of time.

I'm sorry... drifting... it's not racing, it's just getting paid to goof-off.

Then again, I don't really call NASCAR racing either; AND HE MAKES A LEFT... HE MAKES ANOTHER LEFT!!!!!!!... what will he do next Joe??? HOLY SH!T, HE MADE ANOTHER LEFT!!!!

BLAH

Posted by: thethirdeye88

never said drifting was racing...i just love the big smoky drifts around tracks, mountains, parking lots...etc...i dont really car who wins, and its not really about that...you said it right...getting paid to goof off...if you said its not fun to break your tires loose around a corner you are a liar...its just fun, plain and simple...now time attack, autocross, and various other actual "racing" sports are actual racing...not necessarily drifting...its fun man...come on, lighten up...

Posted by: NateRW21

HA... BLAH!!!

I don't know; it's nothin more than a performance. Maybe if they didn't actually have "winners". My problem is who "wins" is entirely subjective and not based on some system of solid data.

Oh well

Posted by: Kelleyo

FYI in 2004 some FOMOCO engineers entered the Car& Drive One Lap of America race with an LS. They put in a Rousch V8 and a 6 speed:
http://media.ford.com/newsroom/featu...?release=17650

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...eel-page6.html

49th Place — 2003 Lincoln LS V-8

When was the last time you tried putting a car on your expense report? Hey, it worked for these guys—Chet Dhruna (left), Jamie Venezia (middle), and Matt List, a trio of Lincoln engineers who stuffed a 390-hp, 4.6-liter Roush V-8 into a Lincoln LS to run this year's One Lap. It looked like a promising setup, and cooler still, it had the blessing of the boss. Unfortunately, the hot-rod Lincoln ventilated its engine block in its first run at Heartland Park. The boys phoned home, and the boss, Ned Nuss, told them to find a way to finish, then helped them implement his mandate with some online research. The solution was a $15,000 '03 Ford Crown Victoria, which the trio split three ways on their corporate credit cards. Swapping engines and getting the supercharger hardware attached took about 11 hours, and by 5 a.m. the next morning, the Lincoln was on its way to Pikes Peak. The body of the Crown Vic donor car will be used by Ford R&D.

Posted by: SlickLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by NateRW21

Hey buddy I know that they didn't finish the prototype but if you actually did something (like call McLaren, like I did) you would have found out that they will work on almost any car for the right price. So before you try to call someone else out of something why don't you do alittle RESEARCH for yourself.

Posted by: thethirdeye88

money money money...MONEY!!!...yeah, you could probably have roush build your LS for enough cash...

Posted by: gcwimmer

You could save money and just buy a M5 or S Type R Jag and complain what it cost to make it look like a Lincoln LS.

Posted by: NateRW21

Tell you what...I'll give em a call. But I already know their answer will be "no we do not work on the LS, we don't set-up superchargers and we don't build suspensions".

If they were in-fact in the business of doing this to the LS; everyone on this forum that's been here for a little while would know about it... AND there would be a real, McLaren LS roaming about somewhere... which there is not.

Suspension parts; if they had anything above and beyond eibach springs, they would be marketing it to the public... they are not. The only suspension mods in existence are the eibach's and possibly a couple LEDA (I believe that's the spelling) shock kits (which seem to no long be available and were outrageously expensive)

Brakes; Stoptech is the only company that has true brake system upgrades for the LS... AGAIN... if anyone had something else, it would be marketed...

Supercharger; Don't you think if a company is in the business of supercharging the LS, there would be more than ONE supercharged LS in existence? Supercharger kits? SOMETHING?!?!?

The facts do not even come close to supporting your assertions... but I'll verify with McLaren on wed.

Posted by: cammerfe

McLaren did, in fact, build more than one five litre, 420 HP '4.6' LS. In order to get the engine to fit under the stock hood, they found it necessary to design and have cast, of magnesium, an intake manifold that was lower without giving up any flow. This was under a prototype contract from FoMoCo. Obviously, Ford didn't 'buy' the idea. I saw them at McLaren while being put together, and Friend Ben managed to arrange to take one over for a 'very extended' test session. (See Detroit: Spring Gold)

Posted by: thethirdeye88

ooohhhh......heated convo....keep it up guys...i wanna see where it goes...either way, it would be bad ass to have a McLaren LS...

Posted by: cammerfe

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammerfe

McLaren did, in fact, build more than one five litre, 420 HP '4.6' LS. In order to get the engine to fit under the stock hood, they found it necessary to design and have cast, of magnesium, an intake manifold that was lower without giving up any flow. This was under a prototype contract from FoMoCo. Obviously, Ford didn't 'buy' the idea. I saw them at McLaren while being put together, and Friend Ben managed to arrange to take one over for a 'very extended' test session. (See Detroit: Spring Gold)

The above is emphatically NOT to start any argumentation. Unless you live in Livonia, Michigan, you'd not have seen either of them during the test time. And when they were turned over to Ford, they'll have been in Dearborn. Neither of them looked at all different then a purely stock version. The one Ben has is Brit Green and he's put on aftermarket 18" wheels and tires. It's also a little 'growly' due to a custom-bent 3" exhaust. The reason I know that it's possible to use Koni coil-overs is that I made one of the return calls while figuring out what components were necessary.

Upon consideration, I'd not have put in the 'Mod' motor. Since I've started the exploration of the Jag series, and particularly because I know it's possible to get 5 litres from a block with that particular architecture, I'd surely go with the original engine design. I know of a 2500 HP turbo'd Race Mustang that's regularly driven on the street. It's one of the best 'Pro Five Oh' Mustangs out there. I believe that it would be possible to perform the same modifications to the Jag engine and get at least the same results---cubic inch for cubic inch. Think about it and smile; then remember that driving over to the store or even a few miles down the street is not the same as a true daily driver. But if you wanted to do the development, you could probably get 1500 HP or more. You'd then need to refresh it with new rings, etc., every ten thousand miles or so. In normal city driving, not including driving on expressways, you probably don't use more than a hundred HP or thereabouts. But some of us are far from normal !!

Posted by: NateRW21

My point was McLaren does not have a package for the LS, and it's highly unlikely they are any longer accepting work for the LS... Let alone everything as described for $12k.

Prototypes are one thing... production-conversion programs are another entirely.

But... very cool to hear about the 4.6L's!

Posted by: thethirdeye88

1500 streetable horsepower?...ummm...thats unreasonable...waaayy tooo much....now aobut 500 hp, thats sounds a little better, still a sh!t ton of power and you can actually use it...1500?...how much boost would that be?...probably around 30lbs?...dont get me wrong, yes it would be awesome to roll around having 1500hp or even close to that...but in a logical sense, i dont see the use to that unless it was a race car and you got ballsy and decided to take it around the block or something...

Posted by: bufordtpisser

Quote:

Originally Posted by gcwimmer

You could save money and just buy a M5 or S Type R Jag and complain what it cost to make it look like a Lincoln LS.

Believe me, the guys who have the M5's and type S and R jags are not sitting around thinking how they would want to make their cars look like a LS. Don't get me wrong here, I like the looks of the LS, but they are not the end all be all car, luxury or otherwise. They are many cars out that will out perform the LS and look much better doing it. Some of you guys just seem to think that everyone suffers from LS envy, and nothing could be further from the truth. I have yet to see an LS that will out perform or out handle an M3 or an M5. And yes, I have driven them all. Likes and dislikes in performance or looks of a car is a very personal thing. Me personally, my ultimate car would be a Dodge Viper. Looks and just plain ground pounding performance in one package. Or a Corvette, or an M5, or an AMG, or whatever. But since the Mark VIII, Lincoln and performance have not gone hand in hand. And probably never will again.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by thethirdeye88

1500 streetable horsepower?...ummm...thats unreasonable...waaayy tooo much....now aobut 500 hp, thats sounds a little better, still a sh!t ton of power and you can actually use it...1500?...how much boost would that be?...probably around 30lbs?...dont get me wrong, yes it would be awesome to roll around having 1500hp or even close to that...but in a logical sense, i dont see the use to that unless it was a race car and you got ballsy and decided to take it around the block or something...

Reasonable or not all depends on what you use it for and what class you race in. If you are not all the way on the throttle then a 1500 hp car can be pretty tame, especially if that is a turbo car.

Posted by: cammerfe

I find an adjustable waste gate to be overwhelmingly necessary in any turbo car I've ever had. (My current LS will be my fourth turbo'd daily driver.) Even with the mildest of them, 5-6 pounds is enough on a daily basis.

On another note, it would take, based on some quick calculations, about 60 pounds of boost to get to 1500 HP with a 4 litre four cam Jag V-8. But it's do-able, and although you would probably only use it for a serious race situation, 'It's better to have and not need it, than to need it and not have it'. This applies as much to the power under your foot as to the gun in your pocket.

Friend Ben has a dual turbo'd Factory Five Type 65 Coupe (Cobra Daytona). The powerplant is a SOHC FE engine, all aluminium, with components by Jim Dove in Ohio. By calculation the engine makes about 3300 HP 'dialed-up'---his dyno won't go that far. He normally drives it 'dialed-down' to only a little over 1000 HP or so. He doesn't drive the car at all if it looks like rain. Dialed-up a little, you literally can't get your head off the headrest when he puts his foot down a little while going 100 MPH. You must have an educated foot to drive it at all.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammerfe

I find an adjustable waste gate to be overwhelmingly necessary in any turbo car I've ever had. (My current LS will be my fourth turbo'd daily driver.) Even with the mildest of them, 5-6 pounds is enough on a daily basis.

By adjustable I assume you mean a boost controller...

I would hope anyone throwing a turbo into a car for an aftermarket application would run an external WG and not some of the cheapo internal ones.

Posted by: thethirdeye88

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

Reasonable or not all depends on what you use it for and what class you race in. If you are not all the way on the throttle then a 1500 hp car can be pretty tame, especially if that is a turbo car.

understood and i side with you...but if you really had 1500hp under your foot, would you really putt around?

Posted by: thethirdeye88

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

Reasonable or not all depends on what you use it for and what class you race in. If you are not all the way on the throttle then a 1500 hp car can be pretty tame, especially if that is a turbo car.

understood and i side with you...but if you really had 1500hp under your foot would you putt around with it?...but other than drag racing or a top speed run where else could all that power be beneficial?

Posted by: cammerfe

You're right. What I mean is, 'boost-referenced'. This sort works just as the fuel pressure regulator to be seen in the picture in my thread in the HP section. An adjustable, controlled 'leak' alters what the wastegate diaphragm sees.

<edit> Someone here mentioned the 'wonderful-ness' of a Viper. One reason to have as much 'horse-pressure' as you want is to be able to confound such vehicles. I am a firm believer in 'sleepers'. My little Four-door is easy to miss---until I pull away with celerity. KS

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by thethirdeye88

Just because a person has something does not mean they have need to use it all the time. I think what allot of us go for is a vehicle that has mild street manners do use as a normal vehicle from Monday through Friday and then also be able to cruise it up to the track and make a few passes with it. With modern technology you can easily have your cake and eat it too. Get pretty decent gas mileage, good drivability and idling, and huge power. The only sacrifice is money, but you pay to play.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammerfe

You're right. What I mean is, 'boost-referenced'. This sort works just as the fuel pressure regulator to be seen in the picture in my thread in the HP section. An adjustable, controlled 'leak' alters what the wastegate diaphragm sees.

<edit> Someone here mentioned the 'wonderful-ness' of a Viper. One reason to have as much 'horse-pressure' as you want is to be able to confound such vehicles. I am a firm believer in 'sleepers'. My little Four-door is easy to miss---until I pull away with celerity. KS

You are slightly mistaken in your explanation of how that wastegate operates. All wastegate's are boost referenced unless you want to max out the turbo to its full boost and airflow ability. Not likely in a gasoline performance car situation though I could see that taking place in a diesel generator application. The bottom of the wastegate diaphram see's full unaltered boost pressure. That boost pressure helps push the diaphragm against a pressure rated spring which collapses at its rated boost pressure which then opens the WG exhaust valve and bleeds excess exhaust to the atmosphere which then slows the turbine and thus drops boost a little too. Then the WG exhaust valve closes and the cycle starts all over again. There is no leak that alters what the WG diaphragm see's.

Now with a boost controller you tee off the boost line running from the compressor side of the turbo to the WG lower port and run a line through an adjustable bleed valve. However, this bleed valve does not leak boost. It instead routes whatever amount of boost you want into the TOP of the WG. This boost now tries to counteract the boost pushing on the bottom of the WG diaphragm. Say that you have a 3.63 psi spring in the WG and have the boost controller adjusted to that it allows 2 psi to bleed past its valve and into the top of the WG. Now instead of only taking 3.63 psi of boost to open the WG and bleed exhaust it will take 5.63 psi to do that. Once again though, there is no leak and the diaphragm still see's the same amount of boost in its lower port it just ALSO see's some boost pressure in its top port too. I have seen some Diesel applications use a bleeder valve going to the lower port on the WG but I do not consider that acceptable in an aftermarket gasoline application as the WG is not seeing the actual boost being made and may tend to operate slightly erratic. WG response is also slowed by doing this also.

You probably already knew this but the way you explained it made it sound like boost was leaking to atmosphere which is just not the case whether you are controlling boost with just the WG spring or with the addition of a boost controller too.

Posted by: bufordtpisser

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammerfe

mostly 4 door grandma cars with big motors. But most people in this day and age are smart enough to realize that if you pull next to them in their Viper with you in your LS and ask for a race, that you are either a fool, or you have something. And I don't know about you or some of the others here, but I know what horsepower sounds like. Don't get me wrong, I have been fooled once or twice in my life by a car that I underestimated, but I was still able to determine that I was not running a stock car long before the race began. And you still have to admit that a fast LS, fast enough to take a Corvette or a Viper is a rare beast.

Posted by: cammerfe

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

Yours is the best explanation. It 'leaks' from one side of the diaphragm to the other.
KS

Posted by: cammerfe

Quote:

Originally Posted by bufordtpisser

The wonder of a turbo'd or sprayed engine is that it is so docile when not 'boosted'. I don't go looking for trouble, but my experience is that when 'catching a light' with a supposedly racy vehicle, the driver expects, when the light turns, to be far ahead of the pack. The confrontation comes when he finds out that the four-door sedan is still right alongside. There's nothing about the way my engine idles to be a warning. And visual clues are limited unless the other driver notices the roll cage or the gauge/control panel.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammerfe

With the common use of FI nowadays you usually don't hear the horsepower until it is too late. The only real dead giveaways are a lumpy cam or a centrifugal s/c. Both of those are quite loud at idle and part throttle.

Posted by: thethirdeye88

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

true...but i was looking at it like riding around in a car that puts down 1500hp 7 days out of the week...a daily driver...a friend of mine has got an '02 cobra...its mean, but he doesnt drive it all the time...having a beast for the fun of the weekend is understandable...not driving it all the time...and yes technology is wonderful...remember the ridiculous old school hot rods of the 60's and early 70's?...when they came factory with big blocks and 500hp?...but yet had absolutely no brakes or suspension...but yet, you are very correct in saying you have to pay to play...but thats what its all about isnt it?...

Posted by: SoonerLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by thethirdeye88

remember the ridiculous old school hot rods of the 60's and early 70's?...when they came factory with big blocks and 500hp?

There were very few (if any) cars that came from the factory with a true 500hp mill back then, and almost all factory engines lost a significant amount of HP when SAE revised the testing standards circa 1972 (not due to changes in the designs, just in the testing). There's a lot of nostalgia about the muscle cars, but, as Yogi Berra put it, nostalgia isn't what it used to be...

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by thethirdeye88

There is a local fella that has a TT 347 Mustang putting down a little over 1,000hp to the wheels. He drives it daily all the time. Full weight with stereo system and everything. That is just one example. It is not unthinkable to have a 1,000+hp car as a full daily driver that will operate better than most vehicles off the factory line. Though it is obviously not common, it still exists. You can keep pushing the issue assuming you are right on this, but I have firsthand knowledge that says otherwise.

BTW, Unless your buddy is an Aussie then he didn't have a 02 Cobra. Sure it wasn't another year???

Posted by: thethirdeye88

still we are talking about big heavy cars that put out ridiculous amounts of power from the factory...but they did it with 400 plus cubic inch engines...not little 4.6 mod engines, 5.0's, or even a whole lot with the 350...its all in the technology nowdays, and we have amazing suspension setups and brakes, all kinds of braces...rack and pinion steering...etc...

Posted by: thethirdeye88

it could have been another year...but its the same body style...and i'm not saying that it cant be done, but thats alot of power man...hell yeah, it would be awesome to have that much power...347 huh...i wonder if he has one of those Roush 347R engines...those things were nice...never seen one in person though...what year mustang does the guy have?...drives around in a 1000hp mustang daily driver...nuts...that would be a hell of a convo at a light...guy rolls up "how much power you pushing there?" "a thousand" "Oh...nevermind"...full system too...what does he do for a living?...

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by thethirdeye88

it could have been another year...but its the same body style...and i'm not saying that it cant be done, but thats alot of power man...hell yeah, it would be awesome to have that much power...347 huh...i wonder if he has one of those Roush 347R engines...those things were nice...never seen one in person though...what year mustang does the guy have?...drives around in a 1000hp mustang daily driver...nuts...that would be a hell of a convo at a light...guy rolls up "how much power you pushing there?" "a thousand" "Oh...nevermind"...full system too...what does he do for a living?...

1995. He works at another local speed shop here. It is not the Roush crate engine. It is a combo based upon an R engine block though.

Posted by: thethirdeye88

sounds nice...turns out my friends cobra is a '99...get some pics or vids of that car man...i'd like to see that...sounds viscous...

Posted by: SlickLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by NateRW21

My point was McLaren does not have a package for the LS, and it's highly unlikely they are any longer accepting work for the LS... Let alone everything as described for $12k.

Prototypes are one thing... production-conversion programs are another entirely.

But... very cool to hear about the 4.6L's!

I take it you still haven't talked to anyone from McLaren because if you would have called them you would be snacking on your own shoes because your foot would be in your mouth. I am not trying to argue but you are trying to call me out on something that you haven't even done your research on.(like I have, go ahead give them a call)

Posted by: NateRW21

No, I have not called them; been a bit too busy during hours of operation. I'll get to it eventually...