Lincoln vs Cadillac Forums

(This is the forums archive - If you want to get back to the main site simply click the banner above and you will be taken to our homepage.)

Lincoln vs Cadillac Forums is the Ultimate Online Resource for Owners and Enthusiasts of American Luxury Cars. Feel free to browse through our archive - but make sure you make it back to our main site - Lincoln vs Cadillac Forums

Cadillac XLR : Cadillac CTS : Cadillac : 2005 Cadillac STS : Cadillac Forums : 2000 Lincoln LS : Lincoln Mark VIII : Lincoln Mark VII : Car Wax
Lincoln Town Car : Lincoln Air Suspension : Lincoln Continental : Lemon Law : Do It Yourself Car Repair : Lincoln vs Cadillac Forums : Mesothelioma

Back to the Archive Main Page

Pages: 1

What would it take for a Mark to beat a 97 Camaro Z28SS

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: fonzieguy

285hp, 325 pounds of torque 5.7 liter v8 in the camaro ss z28, 0-60 in 5.9 1/4 mile-?
what would it take for a Mark VIII to beat that. My buddy was sayin 100 shot of nitrous and a chip what do you guys think?

Posted by: 93hotrodlincoln

Those camaros are fast cars 14.0 in the 1/4 stock but with a 100 shot I think you could beat it.

Posted by: turborich

Quote:

Originally Posted by 93hotrodlincoln

Those camaros are fast cars 14.0 in the 1/4 stock but with a 100 shot I think you could beat it.

Really? I guess that everything runs slower around here. Those 5.7's only run mid to high 15's here stock. I guess that the air and 2500 ft elevation are just not very good for 1/4 mile times???

Posted by: vr4

LT1s are high 13s/low 14s in decent weather and driver when in good condition.

100 shot on your average mark would allow it to keep up or maybe creep away.

Posted by: 98LSC32V

You don't need a 100 shot. 4.10-4.30 gears, 3500 stall, full exhaust, tune, and sticky tires will smoke the average LT1. Heck I pull away from my buddies 94 Z28 auto from a 1st gear roll (35mph) he has a cold air intake and flows and I have a chip and exhaust and I slowly pull on him up to 100mph until I have 1-1.5 cars. From a stop he gets me though.

Posted by: vr4

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98LSC32V

You don't need a 100 shot. 4.10-4.30 gears, 3500 stall, full exhaust, tune, and sticky tires will smoke the average LT1. Heck I pull away from my buddies 94 Z28 auto from a 1st gear roll (35mph) he has a cold air intake and flows and I have a chip and exhaust and I slowly pull on him up to 100mph until I have 1-1.5 cars. From a stop he gets me though.

there are hundreds of ways to do it. 100 shot is easiest/cheapest. i dont have time to list all the other possibilities.

Posted by: ONEBADMK8

If the car is stock then you could do a bolt on Mark with Gears and kill it, if you really want to kill it then THIS would work great!!

Posted by: slowmkviii

you need at least 100 shot the track wont let you race from 35 mph at the track both me in 97 z28 auto convert. headers and magnaflow cold air kit and my friend with 98 mkviii had chip, 100 shot, 3.73s, cold air c&l, mass air, high pressure fuel pump and reg. His best at BIR was 13.8 mine was a 14.07 don't forget the 1st gear in the auto of a 4l60e is 3.06 and a 4r70w is 2.84

Posted by: fonzieguy

Lets put it another way ,what would it cost for a mark viii to beat that camaro?
How bout cost with nitrous, and cost without?

Posted by: papa bear

awsome vid on youtube shows a markviii ripping a camaro off the line only thing about these cars that they have in common are that they don't make them anymore well the camaro coming back where is the mark ix base price of 74,995

Posted by: GMAN

Sorry to hijack your post fonzieguy, but will 4.10 gears kill my mpg? I want the launching capibility to go along with the exhaust and the tune, but I want to keep decent mileage.

Posted by: turborich

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMAN

Sorry to hijack your post fonzieguy, but will 4.10 gears kill my mpg? I want the launching capibility to go along with the exhaust and the tune, but I want to keep decent mileage.

I like that sig pic! Looks good!

Posted by: 98LSC32V

If your friend's best time is a 14.0 with a 100 shot than his car must be running on 7 cylinders or getting the worst 60 foot times ever.

Posted by: Markviiiedrea

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMAN

Sorry to hijack your post fonzieguy, but will 4.10 gears kill my mpg? I want the launching capibility to go along with the exhaust and the tune, but I want to keep decent mileage.

I have the 4.10s in my car along with a 2800 9" stall and at 60 with the cruse on I got 20-21 1/2MPG but with the air on and riping it all night around minneapolis I got 10-12 MPG

Posted by: Nitrobasher

my car

Posted by: slowmkviii

only a 13.8 you say is bad this is the real world not bench racing the temp that day hit about 100

Posted by: fonzieguy

Can a stock mark viii take a 100 shot of nitrous very easily?

Posted by: slowmkviii

yes

Posted by: fonzieguy

is there anyway to beat the camaro without getting nitrous or a supercharger?
OR a stall converter...?

Posted by: 04SSHD

the 97 Camaro Z-28 is still LT1, 265 hp. They are lighter and faster than the Mark, I am sure with a little extra help you can take a stock one. But mods are easier to come by on the Z-28 so if it is modded I would say forget it. If it is a 98-02, you are gonna loose for sure. LS2 motor FTW...

Posted by: 93' Blue on blue

Your info is wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-...evrolet_Camaro

Posted by: MYTURN

KEEP IT SIMPLE

gears - nitrous - tires(do not forget tires)

Posted by: MYTURN

and if you dont want nitrous than put in another 75hp and get tuning it now.sometimes your goals are not accomplished right away.tune tune tune.also-you dont need a connvertor if you go with 4:10.convertors just help you get of the line.so does a 4:10 gear ratio.i bet you could beat that pos with
gears-stickys and light weight wheels-good tune up(obvious)-exhaust-chip-take out weight(seats,spare)-and lots of practice

Posted by: 98LSC32V

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowmkviii

only a 13.8 you say is bad this is the real world not bench racing the temp that day hit about 100

I have over 150 track passes in 3 different Mark VIII's so im not a bench racer. My 95 LSC ran a 13.8 at 101.3mph in 95 degree weather with 4.30 gears, chip, exhaust and pulleys.

Posted by: slowmkviii

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98LSC32V

I have over 150 track passes in 3 different Mark VIII's so im not a bench racer. My 95 LSC ran a 13.8 at 101.3mph in 95 degree weather with 4.30 gears, chip, exhaust and pulleys.

I have never seen this here in MN but if it works and you don't mind the 4.30s I would have to say try it fonzieguy and tell us how it works for you.
But we have added 3.42s and a tune and ran a 13.7 on old tires in our z28 I love my mark but the z is faster w/ less money and parts. The tune was an obd1 ecu and programed in a grage.

Posted by: Markviiiedrea

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowmkviii

that car has kicked my ass sevreal times.

BTW I still need to drive that car, get the tranny fixed!

Posted by: fonzieguy

what kind of rpm would i be looking at for 80mph with 4.10 gears?

Posted by: Markviiiedrea

100 mph was 3500 dont know about 80

Posted by: marked8

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98LSC32V

Tell him to tune his car. I just ran at Cecil in not so great air, ran a 13.89 at 101.12 (best run of 5). Except for a 160 stat and CAI (worthless in my opinion) and a TB bypass (free mod) the car is stock, A4 with 3.23's. A 6spd should run faster. An LT1 losing to a stock gear Mark VIII means the LT1 is not running properly. I've seen LT1's with misfiring opti's running 15's before popping all the way down the track. My Mark VIII in better conditions ran a 14.651 at 97.21 at the same track, I made damn sure it was well tuned before I went.

To answer the original question, gears (at least 4.10's) and a converter should have you really close to the A4 LT1's. The 6spd cars will take a bit more. Forget about playing with LS1's without a power adder.

Posted by: 98LSC32V

His LT1 is running properly, no it doesnt have a tune but the car is tuned up with new spark plug, fuel filter, new fuel pump, and the optispark is working fine. He runs a 14.3 at 95mph in the 1/4 mile with a K&N cai and a flowmaster catback. I ran a 14.6 at 97.3mph, since I trap higher that's why I pull from a roll, he gets the better 60 foot times though.

Posted by: marked8

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98LSC32V

His LT1 is running properly, no it doesnt have a tune but the car is tuned up with new spark plug, fuel filter, new fuel pump, and the optispark is working fine. He runs a 14.3 at 95mph in the 1/4 mile with a K&N cai and a flowmaster catback. I ran a 14.6 at 97.3mph, since I trap higher that's why I pull from a roll, he gets the better 60 foot times though.

His car is slower than an average LT1 auto. Stock should run anywhere from 98-100 for an A4 (the 98 for 2.73 cars) running well, assuming good air. Good win for you though, a win is a win and excuses are for ricers.

Posted by: 98LSC32V

Yea that's what they might run at your track but definitely not at mine. My friend's 97 Cobra with 4.10 gears, off road exhaust, pulleys, intake etc was only running 13.6 when there are guys with the same mods on the east coast running 13.0's with the same mods.

Posted by: marked8

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98LSC32V

Yea that's what they might run at your track but definitely not at mine. My friend's 97 Cobra with 4.10 gears, off road exhaust, pulleys, intake etc was only running 13.6 when there are guys with the same mods on the east coast running 13.0's with the same mods.

So how are you running so quick with basically no mods on a gen II? Not a flame, just want to know since I have run in North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland and multiple tracks in Michigan on hundreds of passes over the last 15 years. Gen II's are generally slow as hell. I ran almost identical times stock but with good air at Cecil and with a Gen I. That Cobra here would be in the high 12's with a decent driver.

Posted by: MediumD

LT1 F-body cars are not that fast. A Mark VIII would need to make up around 5 to 7 tenths. 4.10s or a stall would get close, I think a 75 shot would put him away.

Posted by: marked8

Quote:

Originally Posted by marked8

Posted by: 98LSC32V

You think my 14.62 is quick? Or are you talking about the 13.8 which I ran in my 95 LSC, not a gen 2? The problem with Mark VIII's is they don't get to use the 1:1 ratio of 3rd gear with stock gearing, once you put in some 4.30-4.56 you are deep into 3rd and run what the car is capable of. They are geared for the highway stock more than any other vehicle I know.

Posted by: fonzieguy

Soooo how close would i be to this camaro with 4.10 gears a chip and k&n air filter?

Posted by: MediumD

IMO, pretty damn close. The 4.10s will make the difference, the chip (depending on what chip we're talking about) and the air filter won't make much difference and your money is (also IMO) better spent elsewhere.

Posted by: 02V8Sport

Cheapest way to beat him is to go find a car that has the same lug pattern and close offset steel wheel that comes in 14" or 15" with a smaller diameter tire than the Mark VIII. Find them in a junkyard. Spend $50 on the wheels and tires and now you just changed your gear ratio in the rear the cheap way

Posted by: Moes8

dont think 14" will clear the brakes,might be wrong though

Posted by: 02V8Sport

you may be right, I dont know, Im just throwing out quickie ideas for him to race the Z28. You can use 15's and put 35-40 series rubber on it and that will help you launch as well with the smaller wheel diameter.

Posted by: fonzieguy

Would 3.73 gears and an LMS chip be quite enough? Some people around here are of the opinion that nitrous is "cheating". At the same time 4.10 gears seem kind of high in the rpms for highway driving. I'm used to not hitting 2k rpm until i hit 80.

Posted by: RedHotMark96

What does a stock Z28 run with a slushbox?

Posted by: slowmkviii

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHotMark96

What does a stock Z28 run with a slushbox?

what year

Posted by: fonzieguy

whats a slush box?
im talking about a 97 z28 if thats what your asking

Posted by: slowmkviii

Quote:

Originally Posted by fonzieguy

whats a slush box?
im talking about a 97 z28 if thats what your asking

slush box = Auto
if it is the time of a 97 with an auto the ran from a 13.9 to 14.2

Posted by: fonzieguy

Yeah its an auto, so what are we thinkin here, how will i be looking with 3.73 gears and a chip, also note I have already jmodded the car, and on a side note how hard is it to install 3.73 gears?

Posted by: Jeffguy11

Quote:

Originally Posted by fonzieguy

Yeah its an auto, so what are we thinkin here, how will i be looking with 3.73 gears and a chip, also note I have already jmodded the car, and on a side note how hard is it to install 3.73 gears?

go with the 4.10s!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Rich88LSC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffguy11

go with the 4.10s!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: slowmkviii

3.73s and a chip will not get you there even 4.10s will not get you there

Posted by: Tiltedhalo

I have a 97 LSC normally aspirated with 3.73 gears in a open differential, slight stall converter, Isky cams, mild port work, stock intake and MAS with custom cool air inlet, oh the throttle body and MAS have been ported and polished, under drive pulley's and a custom tune. My best time 13.2 with really bad traction

Posted by: slowmkviii

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiltedhalo

I have a 97 LSC normally aspirated with 3.73 gears in a open differential, slight stall converter, Isky cams, mild port work, stock intake and MAS with custom cool air inlet, oh the throttle body and MAS have been ported and polished, under drive pulley's and a custom tune. My best time 13.2 with really bad traction

nice time how much did the cams and port work cost

Posted by: fonzieguy

Yeah I didn't think it would get me there but I was wondering how close/ what times would be looking like. 4.10's seem like a little much i wanna keep the rpm's a little lower than that i think.

Posted by: Tiltedhalo

The total invested in the cams springs ect. was around $1700.00. All the port work I did myself. Now for a little info on cams, if I had to do it again I WOULD NOT! the gains are not worth the cost and work for another 1K I could have gone with a blower and for 1-5th the cost a 150 Shot of nitrous and got more.
The only good thing is its normally aspirated and no NOS and runs mid 13,s, 13.2 was my best pass and I got semi good traction, as seen by much better 60 foot times.
4.10's alone will get you in the 14's, they help overcome the boats weight factor, but you will see little difference in trap speed you e/t will be less.
to get where you want to be you need more HP to, under drive pulley's better exhaust, large MAS custom tune ect.

Posted by: Tiltedhalo

Oh by the way don't worry about using 4.10's, the torque multiplication factor will actually help your in town millage, and remember you have a 20% overdrive factor at a 1:1 ratio trans and 4.10's your right around 3K on the tach at 55 mph so in OD you will turn around 2.4K, not a problem for a 4.6L DOHC they are well built engines.

Posted by: fonzieguy

Yeah I didn't think the engine would have a problem I just didnt want so much engine noise especially when im on the highway... could make long trips a little annoying.

Posted by: Jeffguy11

Quote:

Originally Posted by fonzieguy

Yeah I didn't think the engine would have a problem I just didnt want so much engine noise especially when im on the highway... could make long trips a little annoying.

..or a little more exciting

Posted by: AbrahamLincoln

Quote:

Originally Posted by MYTURN

KEEP IT SIMPLE

gears - nitrous - tires(do not forget tires)

don't forget the transmission after you blow it up!

Posted by: fonzieguy

;p;

Posted by: fonzieguy

Ok so this is the math I'm coming up with, if with 4.10 gears at 100 mph and the engine is at 3500 rpm, with 3.73's that should put the rpm's at 3184 with 4.30's that would put the engine at 3670.

So I'm kind of leaning towards the 3.73's because I do have a few highway trips planned, going to ohio and savannah, maybe florida too. Will the 3.73's make that much of a difference, how much will I notice it?

Posted by: 93' Blue on blue

I can't make up my mind either! If you are confused you could do what im planning:

Pick up another mark VIII carrier cheap and get 4.30s and a decent LSD or locker fitted. Im told that swapping pumpkins is quick and easy - you could have a highway pumpkin and a city / race pumpkin!

Only minor complication i see is having to switch speedo gears (but thats easy enough) and tunes for the set ups you run - a switch chip maybe take care of that?

Ever consider that? Have the cake and eat it!

Posted by: fonzieguy

Hmm so you can set it up to where you can switch gears on the fly? How hard is this to set up? Also where is a good place to get gears?

Posted by: 93' Blue on blue

Quote:

Originally Posted by fonzieguy

Hmm so you can set it up to where you can switch gears on the fly?

Do you mean switch the pumpkins? Im told it can be done in 30 mins. (didn't know this myself until last week)

Look on craigslist and ebay for used pumpkins - i have seen them sell for 100 - 150.

With regard to tuning, there are 'switch chips' available that allow you to choose between tunes on fly. Best to speak to a tuner about that stuff.

8.8'' gears in all the usual ratios, speedo gears and rebuild kits are available all over the net. Max at Five Star Ford may be able to help.

You would be best to find yourself a local shop for the gear install into pumpkin - costs around 300 or so.

One other thing you are gonna need sooner or later is an upgraded drive shaft. (Dynotech make a 4'' and so does Denny's)

These are just some suggestions i've been researching - wait and see what others say, but i think the 2nd pumpkin idea may be good for you if you want a chance at beating them F bodies, whilst still having a good cruiser for long trips.

Posted by: fonzieguy

Would the drive shaft upgrade be necessary with 3.73's ?

Posted by: 93' Blue on blue

Ideally, you would want to change it on your 94. You could look for a cheap 93 one piece drive shaft - they are considered superior to the later 2 piece type. (which your car has)

Do the gears, by all means and if vibes become a problem, replace the shaft.

Posted by: fonzieguy

How much is a drive shaft?

Posted by: 93' Blue on blue

Used one piece shafts go for around 50 - 100. (if you can find one ok)

Those aftermarket shafts are around 500. (470 for the Dynotech from SCP)

http://supercoupeperformance.com/par...spx?partId=529

And here is the website for Denny's drive shafts:

http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/

Posted by: fonzieguy

jeez how hard is that to put in?

Posted by: RedHotMark96

Anyone know how the handling of a Z28 compares to a Mark VIII with suspension in decent condition?

Posted by: Abbens

Quote:

Originally Posted by fonzieguy

jeez how hard is that to put in?

Not hard easier than doing gears

Posted by: slowmkviii

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHotMark96

Anyone know how the handling of a Z28 compares to a Mark VIII with suspension in decent condition?

not very close
But if both cars are stock the best mod is the driver mod

Posted by: Rich88LSC

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowmkviii

not very close
But if both cars are stock the best mod is the driver mod

+1

Most people cant drive once the road starts to curve. But with a competent driver the Camaro wins

Posted by: fonzieguy

SO I think i decided to go with the 3.73's can someone show me a compatible set ? I remember it hearing it needs something that measures 8.8 ?

Posted by: Rich88LSC

Yes. Standard 8.8 gears will work. If your going for a trac lok as well(highly recommended) make sure you get one compatible for IRS if not it is a major chore to get the axes out if you ever need to get into it again. I got my 4.10s, trac lok and install goodies from Max.

Posted by: fonzieguy

What is trac lok?

Posted by: Rich88LSC

fords version of a limited slip differential. If your not familiar in simplest terms it will spin both tires instead of just one.

Posted by: fonzieguy

Now when you say compatible with IRC what does that mean?
And do you mean Max from five star ford?
And roughly how much does it cost?

Posted by: Rich88LSC

The side gears in the IRS(independent rear suspension) units are different. If you use a non IRS unit the axles will go in but do not want to come back out. If your going to buy a new one it should be setup to work with the IRS.

Yes Max at five star. Send a message to mrzee and he'll set you up.

I think it was around $500 shipped for everything.