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Rear mount turbo kit lincoln ls

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Posted by: zachg2001

We do it big in Omaha Nebraska. I found a proformance shop that loves the idea of having a rear mount turbo lincoln ls come out of there shop so after winter if everything works out ill have one fast Lincoln!!! heres a picture of a rear mount kit on a camaro

Posted by: ground_zero298

thats a whole lot of piping. What kind of numbers you get off of that. It's gotta be hard makin alot of boost in 12 foot of intake pipe. Hows the lag also compared to a charger? Are you gonna have a pipe comin out the bumper on one side and a intake filter on the other?

Posted by: DunItRight

We have a guy on here that says he has something coming but i cant see a rig like that doing much.

Posted by: NYC LS8

Those kits work. And you don't want a lot of boost with the compression ratio that the LS has anyway.

Posted by: 04SCTLS

that is most likely the STS turbo kit
http://www.ststurbo.com/home
Here's a link to one of many threads about it on www.cZ28.com where I'm a member.

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...s+turbo&page=2

The beauty or a rear mount turbo is that there's no complex exhaust plumbing required.
A pipe runs back to the engine and easily plumbs into the air intake.
A wastegate controls the level of boost and simple water/methanol injection takes the place of complicated intercooler setups.
The limited cramped space under the hood of the LS is similar to the FBody Camaro/Firebird.
There is some turbo lag but it's the easiest way to add serious boost
with the least amont of work.
It would not be hard to adapt the STS to work on the LS.
The relatively small 3.9 LS V8 would probably only need a small turbo head in comparison to the avg 6 liter engines it's used on.

Posted by: 04SCTLS

There's more info on www.cz28.com
Just do a search under STS Turbo and 125 links will show up.

Posted by: DunItRight

Cool, I appreciate the whole value in its entirety but its just not the same as a straight forward kit.

I do wish we had more room and understand that is the reasoning, I hope this works well cause this in consumption with the other kit makes even more areas of R&D to be influenced.

Does the exhaust plumbing make up for what the extensive intake plumbing constricts? I mean, it seams like there is alot of intake for forced induction with a kit like that considering it is forced induction.

keep us posted!

Posted by: DunItRight

Maybe I should consider 04sctls's links.

Posted by: 04SCTLS

There is some work to be done to make this work in an LS.
You would probably have to combine the dual exhaust pipes into 1
to feed the turbo then split it back after it's been used unless you can live with a single exhaust and a dummy pipe in the back.
This would be the most fabrication but not beyond the capabilities of a compitent exhaust shop.
On the intake side a pipe has to be plumbed along the floorpan which needs to rise into the engine compartment and feed the Throttle Body.
It would have to be able to withstand at least 5 psi and not rupture or blow apart.
An exhisting STS pipe can probably be utilized with some custom work required at the engine depending on where it comes up.
Check valves may need to be added to the PCV system or it may need to be redone to vent to the atmosphere.
The Water/Methanol is mostly a nobrainer having to spray a mist before the TB.
These things are not insurmountable and a lot more practical than trying to plumb the turbos off the factory manifolds or some custom headers or exhaust manifolds and having the head unit under the hood with the related heat space and plumbing issues.

Posted by: 02LSE96LSC91SE84TC

Already in progress guys.

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=34758

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by DunItRight

We have a guy on here that says he has something coming but i cant see a rig like that doing much.

Dun, you should really research remote mounted turbo's a little bit more. It is ok if you want to believe that a remote mounted turbo will not "do much" on an LS. You will see numbers and I am sure your tone will change.

I like how there are always people who do not want to accept a new approach to making power in the performance automobile industry. For those of us who have been in the business a while we have seen this way of thinking before. Heck, even as little over 5 years ago people were still talking down on regular front mounted turbo's being able to make the kind of power to win races at the track or be suitable on the street. Those opinions have since been changed by hard results. The same will be said for the remote mounted turbo systems once enough people actually understand how they function, and how to correctly set them up. Until then we will still have disbelievers like you Dun. And honestly that is through no fault of your own. You are just a little misinformed; as allot of people are. That is fine with me, it makes things interesting.

On another note, it will be nice to see other turbo LS's running around out there. It cannot do anything but slightly improve upon the vehicle's image.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by ground_zero298

thats a whole lot of piping. What kind of numbers you get off of that. It's gotta be hard makin alot of boost in 12 foot of intake pipe. Hows the lag also compared to a charger? Are you gonna have a pipe comin out the bumper on one side and a intake filter on the other?

A turbo moves so much air that making boost in a slightly longer section of pipe like in the remote mounts will be easy.

A remote turbo is sized differently than a front mounted one. Once that is taken into consideration then spool time (lag) is greatly decreased. It is even easily possible to have a remote turbo spool too quickly if sized incorrectly. The name of the game is to have an even balance between maximum power and the kind of spool that you prefer.

In short the turbo will spool to full boost quicker than a comparably sized centrifugal s/c.

Posted by: 04SCTLS

An engine of the displacement of 3.9 liters will probably gain about 20 hp per 1lb of boost.
So even a 5psi increase which is pretty modest for a turbo will provide an extra 100 hp.
With meth injection or an intercooler and a turbo tune 8 psi may be possible on stock internals for an increase of 160 hp.
Turbos can put out 15-20+ psi so the sky is the limit.

Posted by: 04SCTLS

The boost in my S/C Camaro comes on at 2500 rpm since I'm running a 9 psi pulley.

Posted by: DunItRight

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

Here we go with the attitude right off the bat. I never said anything bad about it, I would actually like to know about it thats why I asked these questions. And I also asked numerous questions to you about your kit and you never said anything like this while I was paying attention to it, after we got no where I just fell off the topic, and please lets not go there again. I cant see it doing anything but it does so I am wrong which is why I want to know!

Misinformed? I was never informed THATS WHY IT WAS JUST SIMPLE QUESTIONS or basic conversation!
Don't be such a dick about everything dude, I wasn't being cocky or anything at all!

You got some real touchy nerves man.

Why is it that you just completely ignored post #7?

I think I know why. To just be a dick.

Posted by: ground_zero298

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

It just seems like if you stomp on the gas it would create a dramatic drop in pressure it all that tube which would take longer to get the boost back up. But your saying the blades have a modified angle for a rear mount turbo to make up for this.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by DunItRight

Dun, I did not post here in order to get on your case. I actually posted here to clear a few misconceptions up. In fact, truth be told I was trying to somewhat go to bat for you as one of those under-informed people making it clearly understood that it usually is not your fault for having the wrong info. Regardless of my intent you always seem to take it the wrong way so I give up with you. Have a nice day.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by ground_zero298

Well the turbine A/R housing has allot to do with the spool time. The turbine wheel itself does also, but spooling is usually controlled more-so by the turbine housing than any other component on a turbo. For instance, you will see allot of front mounted turbo's running a turbine housing with an A/R of 1.0 and above. You usually see allot of remote mounted turbo systems with turbine A/R housings in the .58 to .68 range depending on the turbo combo and engine displacement. That smaller A/R is meant to take better advantage of the already expanded and now cooling exhaust gasses. A remote mounted turbo will have less ability to make as much maximum power as a front mount. That becomes critical when running very high boost in a racing application. This doesn't even become a factor in the situation that the LS is in due to its low boost threshold.

Posted by: rmac694203

A while ago I watched an episode of Horsepower TV where they put an STS kit on a Corvette. They said that due to the extra amount of piping you lose about 1lb of boost, but it also cools a lot more on the way to the engine.

Posted by: zachg2001

im not doing the turbo kit but i know somewhat of how its going to be done, ill will mostlikely only have exhaust on one side, and where going to shoot for 6 lbs of boost and try to tune it at 6lbs for 92 octane

Posted by: DunItRight

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

zach, can you shoot a link, maybe to the shop that is doing the kit for you?

Posted by: DunItRight

Quote:

Originally Posted by DunItRight

Cool, I appreciate the whole value in its entirety but its just not the same as a straight forward kit.

I do wish we had more room and understand that is the reasoning, I hope this works well cause this in consumption with the other kit makes even more areas of R&D to be influenced.

Does the exhaust plumbing make up for what the extensive intake plumbing constricts? I mean, it seams like there is alot of intake for forced induction with a kit like that considering it is forced induction. keep us posted!

And again......

Quote:

Maybe I should consider 04sctls's links.

So like I said... just admit you jumped on my back again for no reason. Why the hell would I want confrontation? Who the hell am I confronting? Its a damn monitor screen with some black text on it!

Zach, do you have the cost tallied up at all for this kit?

Posted by: n8bachelor

Quote:

Originally Posted by 04SCTLS

There is some work to be done to make this work in an LS.
You would probably have to combine the dual exhaust pipes into 1
to feed the turbo then split it back after it's been used unless you can live with a single exhaust and a dummy pipe in the back.
This would be the most fabrication but not beyond the capabilities of a compitent exhaust shop.

Would a twin turbo system work in this application (one for each exhaust line)? or would that be a case of deminishing returns for the expence involved?

forgive the ignorant question I am not intimately familiar with turbos

Posted by: T_Man

I think one of the major obstacles in using this system in an LS, would be all the plumbing involved. There is not much room to work with under an LS and using a twin turbo setup would double the tubing. Not to mention the oil lines and everything else that goes with those turbos.

I've seen the STS turbo system in person in a Corvette and a Camaro. They both took up a lot of space under and in back of the car. The main thing that always worried me was the air filter down under the back of the car. I wouldn't want to drive through any deep water puddles or in the rain and forget about having your LS lowered.

But the system does work and anything is possible with enough time, money and effort.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by n8bachelor

Twins would not really be worth it in an LS. These higher CR engines can only take so much boost. A single remote mounted turbo will spool just fine and make great power. Now, if you were to get a built bottom end and really turn the wick up then a TT system would be more beneficial from a power and financial standpoint.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_Man

I think one of the major obstacles in using this system in an LS, would be all the plumbing involved. There is not much room to work with under an LS and using a twin turbo setup would double the tubing. Not to mention the oil lines and everything else that goes with those turbos.

I've seen the STS turbo system in person in a Corvette and a Camaro. They both took up a lot of space under and in back of the car. The main thing that always worried me was the air filter down under the back of the car. I wouldn't want to drive through any deep water puddles or in the rain and forget about having your LS lowered.

But the system does work and anything is possible with enough time, money and effort.

Doing a remote TT LS would not add more tubing. Actually the exhaust tubing would be much more simple. When doing a single turbo LS you will need to Y the exhaust under the middle of the car and run a single pipe back to the turbo. This will all be new custom piping. Then if you want to retain the dual exhaust exits you will have to come back out of the turbo split the Y back off and then go to your exhaust outlets. Trust me when I say that it is a respectable amount of custom exhaust tubing work. Then all you have to do is run the cold side intake tubing to the intake.

With a TT system about 90% of your stock exhaust can be reused, as opposed to only about 40% in the single turbo. Your exhaust will be much much simpler, and cheaper I might add. Your intake tubing will be slightly more complex due to the need to merge the two cold side intake tubes before going towards the front of the vehicle. Believe it or not, the tubing on the TT would be much easier for a remote turbo LS.

There are two areas where the mufflers are that will allow a turbo to fit quite nicely. There is enough room to fit the entire turbo and conical filter as well with a small amount of room to spare. It will also allow the turbo to be mounted quite high so that it is not hanging low at all.

There are shields that are made to protect your filter element from rain and puddles. It is made to take quite a bit of direct splashes and still allow the filter to do its job unaffected. Also, I think people are much too concerned than need be on this. I have never taken my LS in more than a few inches of water and I do not see many cases where water crossing, besides the occasional puddle, is necessary. I do not think many people cross creeks in their LS's so I think for most it will not even become an issue. The area where I see concern that is truly warranted is when some of my offroader customers ask about STS turbo systems for their vehicles. That is when the filter placement and turbo placement under the vehicle become extremely critical. I usually steer them towards a PD blower at that point anyways due to them seeking a different kind of power.

Posted by: T_Man

Cool!

.....And speaking of cool..... How close together can the hot exhaust and and cool intake pipes be under the car? Are there any heat transfer problems with having the pipes too close together? Or would that be negligible?

Posted by: zachg2001

its up in the air between 2 shops i cant find the website for one of them but they are both very reputable one has a custom fabed awd sentra http://www.sstracing.com/sublimeweb/custfab.htm the other shop is C & S motorsports but i cant find there site. i dont want to lie but i dont relly know the cost of much of it i will look into costs of things when the time comes but i want to spend under 8k but they get it all winter i want it to be reliable as i will daily drive it as long as its tuneable to 92 octane.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by T_Man

Cool!

.....And speaking of cool..... How close together can the hot exhaust and and cool intake pipes be under the car? Are there any heat transfer problems with having the pipes too close together? Or would that be negligible?

The pipe's can be somewhat close together without getting too much heat transfer. The air moves pretty quickly under there and any heat has allot of places to go so as long as the pipes aren't touching or within an inch or two of each other then it will not be an issue.

I recommend that the exhaust pipe be either fully jethot coated to hold heat in to spool the turbo better or at least spray coat it and header wrap it if in a region where you aren't seeing lots of moisture everyday.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachg2001

its up in the air between 2 shops i cant find the website for one of them but they are both very reputable one has a custom fabed awd sentra http://www.sstracing.com/sublimeweb/custfab.htm the other shop is C & S motorsports but i cant find there site. i dont want to lie but i dont relly know the cost of much of it i will look into costs of things when the time comes but i want to spend under 8k but they get it all winter i want it to be reliable as i will daily drive it as long as its tuneable to 92 octane.

If they need all winter to do this project then take it somewhere else. From start to finish this project, even if encountering hickups, should not take longer than 3-4 weeks of total shop time to do.

They should be able to do it for less than $8k. I have provided price estimates for my customers for less with everything out the door for a custom LS turbo system fully tuned with all the proper fuel system components and so on. A similar setup but in front mount would break the budget; another benefit of remote mounting.

Posted by: zachg2001

i dont know how long it will take them. there alittle backed up but there storeing it for me when its done becuse i dont relly need a rwd in the midwest with z rated tires in the snow.

Posted by: decibels5

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

Have you posted an estimate of total cost. I see you say less than 8k, but can you give us a better idea. Also, how is your other post/project coming along?

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by decibels5

Have you posted an estimate of total cost. I see you say less than 8k, but can you give us a better idea. Also, how is your other post/project coming along?

There have been a few situations that came up that caused the LS project to be put on temp hold. One was business related and the other was due to an unforeseen family emergency that caused me go out of town for a while earlier this week. I will be able to start on it here soon. Once I complete the project I will be able to provide more accurate cost estimates based upon labor time and such.

Posted by: Ch1ll1ng

So the idea of a rear mounted turbo sounds great. The idea that just the length of tubing the air has to pass through may cool it down enough is even greater. I'd hate to see a large intercooler defacing my lower grill.

The combined cooling of the longer path the air has to travel and a small, easily hidden intercooler would be perfect for our LSs, wouldnt it?

In addition to the usual upgrades, CAI, catback, tune, would a rear mounted turbo with a small intercooler on less than 5 pounds of boost be OK for a daily driver?

I mean I'd want to keep a low amount of boost on it 'cause I wouldn't really be looking for a huge huge gain in HP. With the usual mods and a rear mounted turbo I'd want to hit around 325rwhp and not put too much stress on the engine. I've got to drive it to work everyday and I'd like a sleeper daily driver not a dedicated racer.

Think one could hit around 325rwhp with just an intake and rear mounted turbo with not too much boost?

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1ll1ng

So the idea of a rear mounted turbo sounds great. The idea that just the length of tubing the air has to pass through may cool it down enough is even greater. I'd hate to see a large intercooler defacing my lower grill.

The combined cooling of the longer path the air has to travel and a small, easily hidden intercooler would be perfect for our LSs, wouldnt it?

In addition to the usual upgrades, CAI, catback, tune, would a rear mounted turbo with a small intercooler on less than 5 pounds of boost be OK for a daily driver?

I mean I'd want to keep a low amount of boost on it 'cause I wouldn't really be looking for a huge huge gain in HP. With the usual mods and a rear mounted turbo I'd want to hit around 325rwhp and not put too much stress on the engine. I've got to drive it to work everyday and I'd like a sleeper daily driver not a dedicated racer.

Think one could hit around 325rwhp with just an intake and rear mounted turbo with not too much boost?

If you were to go with a remote turbo you would not use your regular CAI or catback exhaust as all new stuff would be made. It would not be worth it to spend money on those two mods only to do a remote turbo later on which would require you to either take them off or hack them all to heck.

You could easily hit 325 rwhp with a system like you described. If running less than 5 psi I do not see the problem with using it as a DD as long as it is tuned well and the bands in the trans are kept well adjusted.

Posted by: Ch1ll1ng

Not bad, not bad at all. I'm a total noob when it comes to turbos, thanks for the info ILLS. Saving for a remote turbo for a vehicle like this sounds like the way to go. Thanks again.

Posted by: JayhawkLS

Zach,

Let me know which shop you are going to use. I have looked into this setup and a shop could fab two just as easy as one. My car is also getting ready to get off the road for the winter. RWD and lowered does not work in Nebraska during the winter.

Posted by: Signal 20

I was gonna do a front mount turbo kit on my V6 LS.

I'm working with a few local shops down here in South Florida trying to get everything into the green light.

I think a single T57 will wake the car up big time!

Posted by: Jayce 1971

You know something? The Lincoln LS is just too sharp of a car to be limited to sub-300 HP. Blue oval should have made this part of the sport package.

ILLS, I'm gettin' more and more jealous of your ride the more I read about these.

I'm a thinkin' I need a turbo Lincoln.

Posted by: NHLSV8

I didnt read through the whole thing because I jsut dont have the time. The pressure in your piping isnt going to decrease any. Its still gonna spool to your WG pressure then release out the WG. the only way to loose pressure for long tubing would be if your engine was displacing soooooo much air that it was sucking it out of the turbo. Then you'd be a tool for putting such a small turbo on a huge engine. Its physics, not a guessing game. Vettes GTO's, Stangs, and camaros are all seeing crazy numbers from rear mount kits. A rear mount elimintates the need for and intercooler too. That allone means more power. Rear mount kits are great! I'm glad someone thought to try it out. Dont quote me per say, but they started in trucks and SUVs for added power. And if anyone questions power from a turbo, 7psi turbo yeilded me a little over 100hp on an 04 Honda civic I was working on. While a 7psi centrifugal SC only got about 40 when we put it on the dyno. Turbos rock, and rear mount kits are lacking nothing!!!! Nice sleeper qualities too if you pipe the blow off to the exhaust pipe cuz you'll never hear it.

Posted by: NHLSV8

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

ILLS, we need to chat some time. As I was reading back through this you were in my head bro! Right on. Except I would hpe to see more than 325 but you did say easily. If tuned right I'd HOPE to see 350 to the wheels

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHLSV8

It all depends on the amount of boost you were running and the tune. I plan to hit around 360rwhp with my system once I pull it out of winter storage and change the wastegate spring out. The person whom I was talking to in your quoted post was looking for something a little more eased down.

Posted by: Jayce 1971

People don't seem to understand how significant of a jump 300+ rwhp is for a pre vvt LS. I'm guessing that with parasitic losses, my '00 is prolly puttin' down about 210hp at the wheels, as opposed to the 250hp factory (crank)spec. When ILLS says he'll be trying to dial in 360RWHP that's about a 50% gain over stock (pre 04?) and still a SIGNIFICANT gain on a 04+. Hopefully this will happen safely with stock engine components, and around 6# of boost? Sounds pretty damn impressive to me. Since seeing some of these setups, I've been researching cost, availability, and simply put, what it would take to do this myself (if I even can). I read about a guy using an eaton off a t-bird and installing it on a v-6 (mitsu) dodge daytona. Not real pretty, but it works. There's a speed shop in Sioux City that put together a 1000HP SC mustang. The guy wasn't happy with that so he pulled the sc and installed twin turbos. Dynod at 1500Hp. The guy still wasnt happy with that, and they're dialing it in for 2K hp(5.4L Triton). This ain't gonna happen with a 3.9 v-8, unless you have a bottomless bank account, and perhaps not even for Daddy Warbucks. Being able to safely boost your engine 50% above stock, when the engine's CR is already high enough to readily burn alchohol, is quite an accomplishment. Cheers to QuickLS and ILLS for havin' the cojones to unleash the potential of these stylin' sedans. The numbers just seem to be getting bigger and bigger.

Posted by: 2003lsv8

Yup that was me, and Ills I can't wait to make this happen. The wife is getting better day by day, just some more small hurdles and me and you are in business bro......

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayce 1971

People don't seem to understand how significant of a jump 300+ rwhp is for a pre vvt LS. I'm guessing that with parasitic losses, my '00 is prolly puttin' down about 210hp at the wheels, as opposed to the 250hp factory (crank)spec. When ILLS says he'll be trying to dial in 360RWHP that's about a 50% gain over stock (pre 04?) and still a SIGNIFICANT gain on a 04+. Hopefully this will happen safely with stock engine components, and around 6# of boost? Sounds pretty damn impressive to me. Since seeing some of these setups, I've been researching cost, availability, and simply put, what it would take to do this myself (if I even can). I read about a guy using an eaton off a t-bird and installing it on a v-6 (mitsu) dodge daytona. Not real pretty, but it works. There's a speed shop in Sioux City that put together a 1000HP SC mustang. The guy wasn't happy with that so he pulled the sc and installed twin turbos. Dynod at 1500Hp. The guy still wasnt happy with that, and they're dialing it in for 2K hp(5.4L Triton). This ain't gonna happen with a 3.9 v-8, unless you have a bottomless bank account, and perhaps not even for Daddy Warbucks. Being able to safely boost your engine 50% above stock, when the engine's CR is already high enough to readily burn alchohol, is quite an accomplishment. Cheers to QuickLS and ILLS for havin' the cojones to unleash the potential of these stylin' sedans. The numbers just seem to be getting bigger and bigger.

I plan to reach that 360rwhp figure while still keeping things safe. I would not even consider that goal worth an attempt if I felt it to be an unsafe one with this car. Too many people use their LS's as daily drivers (myself included in the summer) and doing anything too extreme for this car to handle would be unwise.

Boosting a car like the LS is pretty tricky to accomplish safely mainly due to the high CR. I firmly believe the particular approach that I used in going with the turbo will net good power as well as being safe for the engine and transmission too.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2003lsv8

Yup that was me, and Ills I can't wait to make this happen. The wife is getting better day by day, just some more small hurdles and me and you are in business bro......

I am glad to see that. Maybe there will be a few more turbocharged LS's roaming the streets soon.

Posted by: NHLSV8

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

Im looking at some custom made rods and pistons for more boost. If I can make it happen, I'll let you know. I wont boost if I cant get 8-12PSI from it, but if I can these rods and pistons, we might be in biz! I'll ask the guy about a possible group buy so the cost drops some. If you know any one or if anyone reading this wants in, let me know. This is still in the very early stages, but more than 5PSI would be a blast to drive!

Posted by: NHLSV8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayce 1971

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHLSV8

I recall you mentioning something about a built bottom end for your LS the other day when you called me. I was in a rush at the time but I wanted to ask you what kind of power are you looking for in this whole thing?

Posted by: NHLSV8

I dont have a number in mind. 400 has always been my magic number. Something about Black Sunshine. If we can solve the compression ratio issue and get closer to 10PSI we should be able to blow 400 away. I'm starting out behind you and Quick do to my 1st gen, but thats no excuse. I should be able to hit the same numbers and same times. I'm curious about some other parts of the bottom end. Head studs, sleeves, valve train etc. If we change the comp ratio with some custom forged rods and pistons, will everything else hold up to the added pressure? Valve train probably wont be an issue unless cam work is done, but every chain has a week link.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHLSV8

I dont have a number in mind. 400 has always been my magic number. Something about Black Sunshine. If we can solve the compression ratio issue and get closer to 10PSI we should be able to blow 400 away. I'm starting out behind you and Quick do to my 1st gen, but thats no excuse. I should be able to hit the same numbers and same times. I'm curious about some other parts of the bottom end. Head studs, sleeves, valve train etc. If we change the comp ratio with some custom forged rods and pistons, will everything else hold up to the added pressure? Valve train probably wont be an issue unless cam work is done, but every chain has a week link.

Are you talking about 400 hp at the rear tires or 400 hp total? 400 hp at the crank is no problem even without a built bottom end. Quik said he dyno'd at 350rwhp which puts him well over 400 at the crank. My turbo system will also easily and safely exceed that 400 hp at the crank figure once I throw it on the dyno to show some numbers. Getting 400rwhp with a rock solid tune, meth injection and 7 psi on the turbo might be doable but it will not be for the squeamish.

Custom forged rods will not be the way to go here. Forged is only cost affective if large runs are being done. It is extremely unlikely that a large enough contingent of people will be rallied up to get the tooling for the forged rods made which leaves one option. Billet. It is better than forged in allot of ways and from a small run standpoint it is also much more cost affective because the tooling required is primarily in CNC milling which is primarily writing the G-code for the computer.

Hardened head studs should not pose much of a problem at all. I would also not worry about the valvetrain either. With a 4v engine like this it can flow some pretty good numbers in stock form. I would leave the heads and cams alone as that is not the usual failure point when adding power.

Posted by: NHLSV8

I know they're not the weak point for breaking more so for robbing power in a forced induction. I havent messed around with the 4 valve system yet, so you got me there. Im sure your valves and cam are ok, but if mine were that great, yours wouldnt be different than mine. I appreciate the info. Nice to talk to someone like minded. Though is sounds like you have WAY more experience. And I'm always talking WHP. crank means nothing to me.

Posted by: NateRW21

ILLS, NHLSV8...

Have you considered looking for off the shelf rods which would match up close enough that a good machinist could make them work? Really, as long as length is pretty close and the big end is a hair on the small side... what with offset grinds and the like, it might be totally do-able. Small end wouldn't matter that much if you're having custom pistons cut; just run whatever floating wrist pin the rods would take. And while I'm thinking about it, stands a chance you could absorb a couple thousandths +/- of rod length by adjusting wrist-pin location in the piston. Obviously you'd be very limited on your adjustments here, but I doubt you're 100% locked in.

Just seems like you might have an easier time as far as your bank account is concerned if you could just rework and existing rod.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHLSV8

I know they're not the weak point for breaking more so for robbing power in a forced induction. I havent messed around with the 4 valve system yet, so you got me there. Im sure your valves and cam are ok, but if mine were that great, yours wouldnt be different than mine. I appreciate the info. Nice to talk to someone like minded. Though is sounds like you have WAY more experience. And I'm always talking WHP. crank means nothing to me.

Naaaah, the 4v heads in these cars flow quite a bit in stock form. It is hard to find a modern 4v heads that doesn't. If you plan to only shoot for 400rwhp then the cams will not pose an issue either. Also, flow becomes less important with FI when compared to N/A; though still important when going for truly big power. Assuming the shortblock could handle the power I would bet these heads (even yours) would EASILY support 600rwhp with forced induction.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by NateRW21

ILLS, NHLSV8...

Have you considered looking for off the shelf rods which would match up close enough that a good machinist could make them work? Really, as long as length is pretty close and the big end is a hair on the small side... what with offset grinds and the like, it might be totally do-able. Small end wouldn't matter that much if you're having custom pistons cut; just run whatever floating wrist pin the rods would take. And while I'm thinking about it, stands a chance you could absorb a couple thousandths +/- of rod length by adjusting wrist-pin location in the piston. Obviously you'd be very limited on your adjustments here, but I doubt you're 100% locked in.

Just seems like you might have an easier time as far as your bank account is concerned if you could just rework and existing rod.

I have considered that before. My approach is that if I am going to bother taking the time to build the 3.9 bottom end with something custom I might as well go balls to the wall with the rods, pistons and especially the crank.

Posted by: NateRW21

I can see the reasoning behind that...

Posted by: NHLSV8

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

I only use the 400rwhp as an atleast number. Even the civic was putting more to the ground (412FWHP). And 400 seems easily attainable with FI. Thats about a 100% increase from stock for my first gen. There is a place in Mass that only does one off stuff for HiPo cars. I was thinging about having them make a bunch of things. The owner is a good guy and knows his stuff. The issue is I' have to leave my DD with him for a week or so just for the measurments, then another unkown amount of time to fit and fix, then fit again. Something I hadn't thought about before with putting twice the power to the ground is the tranny. We're tlaking heads, rods, pistons etc. but these tranny's are thought but many to be slushboxes. Something would definately need to be done to make this a "safe" application. The upside of having double power output and NEEDING to rebuild the tranny would be I could adjust the gearing to be more so geared towards the 400hp mark instead of the 200 mark. The other side of the internals and being able to take more boost, I could run a twin turbo if I really wanted to. I've always believed that if its sized right, one turbo will MORE than do the trick. But if its going to be rearmounted with PLENTY of room, why not go to a dual inline. Get a smaller one for the low end and a bigger one to really push the air through! ILLS you got me on the sizing thing, might end up on the phone with you trying to figure out what would be the best course there. The bottom line is the limits are your own imagination. I dont mean to stand on the head of a genious here, but you busted open the doors with the rear mount, now I want to release the flood. End game I'd like to line up next to that new 100k caddy and blow its doors off! The catch is I need to keep it relatively safe (i.e. done right not half arsed) and I want it to still very much so be a luxury car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

I agree. If I'm going to come out fo pocket for custom work, then I dont care to make anything that is just doable. I want it RIGHT! Nate, great idea though and I had thought about it. I had even briefly looked to see if any other manufacturers were runnning the same size. I stopped simply because if its gonna be custom then I want it right.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHLSV8

Something I hadn't thought about before with putting twice the power to the ground is the tranny. We're tlaking heads, rods, pistons etc. but these tranny's are thought but many to be slushboxes. Something would definately need to be done to make this a "safe" application.

Keeping the bands adjusted properly and computer tuning will help these 5R55S trannies live quite well with this much horsepower. There are more than a few people running stock 5R55 trannies in their cars pushing 450+rwhp and doing ok. I would be lieing if I didn't mention that I think they are on borrowed time. The thing it does show is the ability for these transmissions to be able to take more power. Allot of us are finding out that the initial negative assessment of the newer 5R's as weak was mistaken. Not exactly bullet proof either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHLSV8

But if its going to be rearmounted with PLENTY of room, why not go to a dual inline. Get a smaller one for the low end and a bigger one to really push the air through!

I recommend against this. I know that compounded boost (turbo to bigger turbo or turbo to bigger twin screw blower) is getting all hyped up right now but it make for needlessly complex piping under an already tight underbody. This will be due to the way the piping will have to be run for the inline turbo's. I suggest that if you want faster spooling times and good streetable power then go with regular twin turbo's. The way the piping will have to be routed under the car with conventional twin's will be much much simpler.

Posted by: NHLSV8

I never read your posts and think t myself "what is he talking about!" I've said it before and now I'm saying it again. It's nice to come one here and have someone with your level of expertise AND who is like mided with me. I'm talking to the machine shop today about those rods and pistons. I'll keep you posted. I might just for giggles ask about an intake mani. Any thoughts about that? Sounds like these 4V motors dont really need much to boost and then rip up the pavement

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHLSV8

I never read your posts and think t myself "what is he talking about!" I've said it before and now I'm saying it again. It's nice to come one here and have someone with your level of expertise AND who is like mided with me. I'm talking to the machine shop today about those rods and pistons. I'll keep you posted. I might just for giggles ask about an intake mani. Any thoughts about that? Sounds like these 4V motors dont really need much to boost and then rip up the pavement

Doing a sheetmetal intake manifold would be fine as long as you were shooting for some serious power in the LS and everything else like engine, trans, rear end, and fuel system were fully built. I do not trust these composite manifolds too much, though I know most usually stand up to a marginal amount of boost. I would say that if you were planning to push enough boost to hit 500+rwhp then it might be a good idea to swap to a custom sheetmetal manifold. Some will call me crazy here but there is one big difference here. Honestly most cars running sheetmetal intake manifolds are shooting for 700-1000+rwhp. Very rarely do you see a car only pushing 500rwhp using one. The whole deal with the LS having to prematurely upgrade to the sheetmetal manifold is due to the composite intake manifold having much greater chance of failure at the boost levels required to make that power. Then factor in the inability to get a stronger aftermarket replacement and that is where the custom sheetmetal manifold would come in. Long paragraph for a semi-convoluted message, I know.

Posted by: NHLSV8

I'll keep that in mind when I get ahold of the guy later on today.

Posted by: cammerfe

FWIW----Those of you who've been following my 'Land Speed LS' thread in the high performance section will note that the small block Chibbie rod with six inch length and two inch big-end is almost a drop-in for the LS engine. In my area, (Metro Detroit), a used, useable four litre crankshaft goes for $75.00. Custom piston manufacturers will be easily able to provide a forging that'll go with that rod and provide a relatively inexpensive combination for a fifteen pound plus boost lower end package.
As an aside,when planning to build toward four figure HP and torque levels, it would make sense to use Aluminium rods along with the forged pistons. Again, as an aside, I have a friend who's used a cast crank in his 6-71-blown 427 FE engine on the street for more than ten years. The combination of the 'girdle-style' main bearing support and the fully-weighted crankshaft make a VERY stout lower end for the LS engine. And the supercharged Jaguar engine uses composite intake passages.
KenS from Ben's Place

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