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What are you guys, a tag team?
It's ammo for the next time one of those on the list decides to pontificate about something scientific. |
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On the other hand, there is a vast portion of the country who get their information and news from entertainers Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Both are college dropouts. Can anybody in your list compare to the influence these guys have?
In short, your list is irrelevant. |
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On the other hand, there is a vast portion of the country who get their information and news from entertainers Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Both are college dropouts. Can anybody in your list compare to the influence these guys have?
In short, your list is irrelevant. |
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As Iszi said, any fool can pick and choose who to include on any list.
Besides, who exactly is trying to represent these people as authorities on the subject? I don't get my information and news from Kiefer Sutherland, so why should I give a damn if he "believes" in global warming or not? These people are entertainers. Only the Right (deceivingly) attempts to prop them up as the "elite" spokepeople of the liberal establishment. They are not. On the other hand, there is a vast portion of the country who get their information and news from entertainers Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Both are college dropouts. Can anybody in your list compare to the influence these guys have? In short, your list is irrelevant. |
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Some of the biggest fools I have met, are in college. In fact, among these people, the further they have taken their education, the more foolish they are. Basically, their ego grows with there education, but their wisdom seems to shrink.
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What is the current stance from the anti-Global Warming crowd? "Man" is affecting the environment, but not enough?
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What is the current stance from the anti-Global Warming crowd? "Man" is affecting the environment, but not enough?
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I wasn't the one who tried to imply that education level is the determining factor in intellect. That was Fossten, with his original post. So we're basically in agreement on that point.
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If your justification is that the threat might be real, so we should conduct tests, then you can justify spending for anything, as long as it is backed through threat.
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Just for a minute lets say that global warming is false and we waste a little money and time studying it, following through with further experiments to test the theory? Oh well, we wasted a little time and money.
Now let's say that it is correct and we don't follow through with experiments to further test the theory. In that situation we'd be screwed, liberal and conservative alike. It is in the best interest of humanity to study global warming and run test after test after test. Just to ensure we are ready for it. Is it not in the best interest of our nation to stand guard against a possible threat against us? |
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People like you should not be allowed to decide that people like me should have to pay for such nonsense. That's exactly what you're advocating.
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You call 1.34 Trillion Dollars "a little money?"
Lay off the toke, dude. I've got news for you: The left doesn't want to "study" the problem. They want money DUMPED on it as though it's already a fait accompli. People like you should not be allowed to decide that people like me should have to pay for such nonsense. That's exactly what you're advocating. |
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The Cost of Cooling the Climate A non-alarmist guide for policymakers Ronald Bailey | August 14, 2007 United Nations General Secretary Ban Ki Moon is convening a high level meeting on global warming at the U.N. headquarters on September 24. The idea is to jump-start the climate change negotiations for the 13th Conference of the Parties (COP-13) of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC). COP-13 is scheduled for December 3-14 in Bali, Indonesia. President George W. Bush is also inviting representatives from the major industrial countries and large developing countries to come to Washington, DC to discuss climate change on September 27-28. The goal of both meetings is figure out what to do about reducing the emissions of greenhouse gases, especially carbon dioxide, after 2012 when the Kyoto Protocol expires. Under the Kyoto Protocol most industrialized nations—with exception of the United States and Australia—have agreed to cut their greenhouse gas emissions by 5 percent below what their 1990 levels. What is the optimal climate change policy—the one that sets future emissions reductions to maximize the economic welfare of humans? Yale University economist William Nordhaus,perhaps the world's leading expert on the economics of climate change, has just released a new study, The Challenge of Global Warming: Economic Models and Environmental Policy,which estimates the costs of various proposed trajectories for limiting carbon dioxide over the next couple of centuries. Nordhaus and his colleagues have developed a small but comprehensive model that combines interactions between the economy and climate called DICE-2007, short for Dynamic Integrated model of Climate and the Economy. Nordhaus first computes a baseline that assumes that humanity does essentially nothing to limit its output of carbon dioxide. By 2100 CO2 atmospheric concentrations would rise from the pre-industrial level 280 parts per million (ppm), to 380 ppm today, to 685 ppm in 2100. Global average temperature would rise by 2.4 degrees Celsius by 2100. In this baseline scenario, the DICE-2007 model estimates that the present value of climatic damages is $22.6 trillion. DICE-2007 includes damage to major sectors such as agriculture, sea-level rise, health, and non-market damages. Nordhaus then uses his model to assess the ambitious CO2 reduction proposals made by British economist Nicholas Stern and former Vice President Al Gore. Nordhaus calculates that the Stern and Gore proposals for steep immediate emissions reductions produce very similar cost/benefit results. Nordhaus also evaluates explicit temperature and concentration goals, e.g., limiting average temperatures to 1.5 degrees Celsius above current levels or greenhouse gas concentrations to no more than 1.5-times pre-industrial CO2 atmospheric concentrations. So what did Nordhaus find? First, the Stern proposal for rapid deep cuts in greenhouse gas emissions would reduce the future damage from global warming by $13 trillion, but at a cost of $27 trillion dollars. That's not a good deal. For an even worse deal, the DICE-2007 model estimates that the Gore proposal would reduce climate change damages by $12 trillion, but at a cost of nearly $34 trillion. As Nordhaus notes, both proposals imply carbon taxes rising to around $300 per ton carbon in the next two decades, and to the $600-$800 per ton range by 2050. A $700 carbon tax would increase the price of coal-fired electricity in the U.S. by about 150 percent, and would impose a tax bill of $1.2 trillion on the U.S. economy. In addition, scenarios which attempt to keep the future average temperature increase below 1.5 degrees Celsius and concentrations below 1.5-times pre-industrial atmospheric concentrations are also not cost-effective. The DICE-2007 model calculates that both would cost more than $27 trillion in abatement costs and provide only about $13 trillion in reduced damages. The optimal policy? Nordhaus reckons that the optimal policy would impose a carbon tax of $34 per metric ton carbon in 2010, with the tax increases gradually reaching $42 per ton in 2015, $90 per ton in 2050, and $207 per ton of carbon in 2100. A $20 per metric ton carbon tax will raise coal prices by $10 per ton, which is about a 40 percent increase over the current price of $25 per ton. A $10 per ton carbon tax translates into a 4 cent per gallon increase in gasoline. A $300 per ton carbon tax would raise gasoline prices by $1.20 per gallon. Following this optimal trajectory would cost $2.2 trillion and reduce climate change damage by $5.2 trillion over the next century. "The net present-value global benefit of the optimal policy is $3.4 trillion relative to no controls," writes Nordhaus. "While this is a large number absolutely, it is a small fraction, about 0.17 percent, of the discounted value of total future income." Keep in mind that in this optimal scenario climate change damages would still accumulate to $17 trillion (lower than $22.6 trillion in the baseline case), but they are not abated because to do so would cost more than the benefits obtained. A more optimistic scenario envisions the invention of a low cost zero-carbon technology. Such a technology would have a net value of around $17 trillion in present value. As Nordhaus notes, "The net benefits of zero-carbon substitutes are so high as to warrant very intensive research." Setting a price on carbon through a rising tax will encourage the development of such technologies. Another good way to hurry the process along would be to offer a substantial prize to the inventor of a cheap low carbon energy technology, e.g., perhaps a better battery, or paint-on solar cells. Nordhaus cogently argues that neither doing nothing nor trying to halt global warming immediately are sensible policy targets. Nordhaus's study is certainly not the final word on climate change policy, but it would be a excellent starting point for climate change negotiators when they gather in New York, Washington and Bali this fall. Ronald Bailey is Reason's science correspondent. His book Liberation Biology: The Scientific and Moral Case for the Biotech Revolution is now available from Prometheus Books. |
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It's a valid point, but I've always hated lists like this. I say this because some of the absolute stupidest people I have ever met, I met while I was in college.
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Just for a minute lets say that global warming is false and we waste a little money and time studying it, following through with further experiments to test the theory? Oh well, we wasted a little time and money.
Now let's say that it is correct and we don't follow through with experiments to further test the theory. In that situation we'd be screwed, liberal and conservative alike. It is in the best interest of humanity to study global warming and run test after test after test. Just to ensure we are ready for it. Is it not in the best interest of our nation to stand guard against a possible threat against us? |
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Basically, I agree.
Except, I dont care as much about testing as I do about changing. My thinking is that it cant hurt for us to be more enviromentally responsible. Lowering the usage of things like Oil and Coal and replacing that with things such as nuclear, wind and solar power can only help us. It will reduce our dependance on foreign oil, the profits of which are used to fund terror against us and our allies. It will also help clean the air up a bit, which certainly cant hurt us. Ultimately, we'll save money in the long run. The politics is just that, politics. |
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You call 1.34 Trillion Dollars "a little money?"
Lay off the toke, dude. I've got news for you: The left doesn't want to "study" the problem. They want money DUMPED on it as though it's already a fait accompli. People like you should not be allowed to decide that people like me should have to pay for such nonsense. That's exactly what you're advocating. |
10. How are emission allowances distributed under the Act?
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Good God man, do some research before spouting off your mouth.
I don't know where they came up with the $1.34 trillion figure, but regardless, it doesn't go towards research. The money they're talking about is an allowance to ease carbon emitters' expenses as the program is phased in. |
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And your point is...?
It's tax dollars being SPENT. Period. These dollars will be ripped from you and me and given to these corporations. My point stands. |
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No it doesn't. I shouldn't have used the phrase "the money they're talking about" because there's no real money changing hands, let alone tax dollars. The allowances represent the money the company would have had to spend on emissions taxes if the act went into full force right off the bat. The 1.34 trillion figure represents (assuming it's correct) the value of those allowances.
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/trading/basics.html |
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaand you're wrong again.
Read this section CAREFULLY, noting the last paragraph: Further, the federal government would issue rights or "allowances" to emit the GHGs, says Milloy: The bulk of these allowances -- 76 percent for the first five years -- will be given away at no charge to special interests, including private industry, farmers and states. This giveaway works out to a total of $1.34 trillion -- not adjusted for inflation -- that would be handed out to global warming special interests from 2012-2030. Additionally, companies that must purchase allowances will most likely pass along the higher costs to consumers in the form of higher prices for all goods and services that involve the energy use. That's a tax increase, however you want to spin it. Haven't you ever heard Benjamin Franklin's famous quote: A penny saved is a penny earned? ![]() |
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Nuclear power is opposed by Democrats and environmentalist fearmongers who scream "Chernobyl" every time it's mentioned. Yet Europe uses nuclear power with no issues..
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Wind power is also opposed by Democrats such as Ted Kennedy who doesn't want them installed in his rich greedy family's sailing lanes.
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Solar power is simply too expensive. To build a house on solar to be completely independent of the grid would cost, for a 2,000 square foot house, over $200 grand JUST FOR THE SYSTEM. There are issues with disposal of solar batteries as well.
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Oil is cheaper, more efficient, plentiful, and ORGANIC, and so is coal.
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Stop buying into the envirowackos' fearmongering talking points. George W. Bush, whom you HATE, tried to improve our energy policy but the Dems prevented it.
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Cheaper how? Come on - do you REALLY believe that? Your smarter then that. We spend TREMENDOUS amounts of money to protect the oil. Do you really think we would give a rats ass about the middle east if they had no oil? Do you think we would have been rushing to save Saudia Arabia and Kuwait in 1991 or gone back in 2003? Please. The military cost of playing in the oil rich sandbox is tremendous. |
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Yeah, I notice that when I pay $3.50 a gallon for Gas. Some job GW has done there. And before you say it, ill say this once again. So? Republicans had control for 6 years. The Dems didnt matter.
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Then quit telling us how we have to start changing our lives, hypocrite.
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(Sigh)
Dude, the author of this piece is full of it, using misleading phrasing to make it appear that money is actually changing hands. It is NOT. Read the damned link I provided on what a cap and trade "allowances" actually is. The $1.34 trillion is what the author calculates the credits to be worth IF the companies had to pay the emissions taxes, IT IS NOT ACTUAL MONEY THAT ANYONE PAYS OR RECEIVES. If anything, it's a tax BREAK. It gives the companies five years to whatever they want to do to prepare, and then the allowances gradually taper off. If they decide to do nothing, then they have to buy allowances from companies who did do something (at which point money DOES change hands). If they reduce their emissions, then they can sell their allowances to someone else and make some of their investment back. This is a hell of a lot more business-friendly than imposing straight emission caps. |
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Go back and read the story. The Democrats (and RINO liberals) in Congress want to raise energy prices and levy more taxes. Get that through your thick skull. If you think otherwise, you're totally naive.
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Furthermore, it's common knowledge that the Kyoto protocol will cost the world tens of trillions of dollars to implement. Don't sit there in your stinking ignorance and try to tell me that it will actually SAVE me money - that's an insult to my intelligence and a broad display of your own lack thereof.
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Oil is cheaper than solar, wind, AND ethanol, which itself costs more to make than it generates. That's how..
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Sort of shoots your "Bush lied to get us into a war for oil" theory in the foot, doesn't it?
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Then quit telling us how we have to start changing our lives, hypocrite.
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Oil is cheaper than solar, wind, AND ethanol, which itself costs more to make than it generates. That's how.
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Sort of shoots your "Bush lied to get us into a war for oil" theory in the foot, doesn't it?
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Basically, I agree.
Except, I dont care as much about testing as I do about changing. My thinking is that it cant hurt for us to be more enviromentally responsible. Lowering the usage of things like Oil and Coal and replacing that with things such as nuclear, wind and solar power can only help us. It will reduce our dependance on foreign oil, the profits of which are used to fund terror against us and our allies. It will also help clean the air up a bit, which certainly cant hurt us. Ultimately, we'll save money in the long run. The politics is just that, politics. |
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Yeah yeah, you weren't talking to me, but I'm going to reply anyway...
It's cheaper because we've been using it for 150+ years and we have a huge infrastructure in place. |
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Unfortunately there isn't an endless supply of it (and don't give me any of that "biogenic theory" nonsense - talk about junk science).
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Guess what? Radios were hugely expensive at one time too. All new technology is at first. Alternative forms of energy production will only become cheaper when demand for them rises. With the system we have in place (including political), there is little chance of anything new taking off until it becomes a crisis.
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Not really. Bush, or rather Cheney, said it would be a "cakewalk" going in there and "liberating" the Iraqis. But he hadn't counted on the insurgents throwing a monkey wrench into our plans to privatize the oil industry and bring in Shell and Exxon.
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Question: What is the ONLY legislation that Bush keeps harping on the Iraqis to get worked out?
Hint: O*L. |
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fossten and MONSTERMARK - I didn't think people like you should be allowed to decide that people like should have had to pay to free a country, to tell you the truth about, I couldn't give two shi'ites about.
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