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tranny fluid...

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Posted by: 97stscaddy

From searching, it appears that the LS trans fliud cannot be serviced by the backyard mechanic. Not unless he plans to buy a trans fluid exchanger.
Anybody have an idea what it would cost for the dealer to do this? I figure at 56k miles its probably hasn't been done yet, and should be. (especially with the way I drive :P )

Posted by: Jim Henderson

My dealer recommends every 50K miles to flush the tranny.

I think their list price is something like $105+ I think I have seen tranny flushes at places like Jiffy Lube for something like $90.

I am still very nervous about tranny flushing versus dropping the pan, but it sounds like this tranny is one that is better done by the dealer. I am not even sure if there are aftermarket filter and gasket kits. Ooops, looking at Rockauto parts they do have a filter kit but it is not clear if there is a gasket. Interestingly there is an auxilliary filter assembly available to attach to the external lines, hmmm. Both are Motorcraft parts so that is good.

Good Luck,

Jim Henderson

Posted by: 97stscaddy

Well when they do a flush they replace ALL the fluid, including the fluid in the converter and cooler/lines. It uses pressure to push out any debris that may have settled in the low parts of the valve body and piping throughout the transmission. Its a much better procedure than just dropping the pan and replacing part of the fluid, and since the transmission isn't actually open, it reduces the possibility of moisture contamination. You might hear some horror stories about transmissions dropping dead after a flush, but those are usually pretty old and havent been taken car of, and are showing signs of trouble anyway.
Thanks for the info, that sounds like a pretty reasonable price. When you consider most tranny fluid is about $4-5 a quart, and you need 12...

Posted by: lseguy

Dealerships also often recommend oil additives, 3k mile oil changes, and many other things for their own profit that the actual manufacturer DOESNT recommend.

With that in mind, the LS Owners manual/maintenance schedule specifically states that the LS has a lifetime ATF fill.

All that being said, I had mine flushed by my local dealer at about 75k. I plan to keep the car for 150k, so a once per ownership flush for me works just right.

Posted by: SoonerLS

FWIW, the Owner's Manual doesn't have a service interval for the tranny, but if you check online via the Lincoln Owner's Web site, it says every 30K miles, IIRC. The engineer who did the programming for the 5R55N says 30K miles, so that's the interval I intend to follow on my 5R55S.

Posted by: lseguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerLS

FWIW, the Owner's Manual doesn't have a service interval for the tranny, but if you check online via the Lincoln Owner's Web site, it says every 30K miles, IIRC. The engineer who did the programming for the 5R55N says 30K miles, so that's the interval I intend to follow on my 5R55S.

Actually, the engineers themselves gave differing opinions. Kathy (forget her last name..but she was the last engineer I recall) stated there was no reason to change the tranny fluid.

Posted by: 97stscaddy

Quote:

Kathy (forget her last name..but she was the last engineer I recall) stated there was no reason to change the tranny fluid.

And just what was her reasoning behind that? Lubricants break down over time. In an engine the heat of combustion, moisture from outside the engine, and blowby of fuel vapor past the rings accelerates the break down of the oil. In a transmission you are spared some of the heat, and the fuel vapor, but you still have the moisture to contend with. Automatic transmissions have to be vented or they would blow seals left and right. And the repeated cooling and heating of the fluid WILL break it down over time. On top of that, there are clutch packs inside the transmission that wear with everyday driving, no matter how hard or easy the car is driven. As these packs wear they add sediment to the fluid, most of which is caught by the filters, but some of it does get past and will cause wear on the bearing surfaces.
Saying that you should never have to change the fluid in a transmission is just like saying that you should never have to change a light bulb. You can put a flourescent bulb in its place (to compare with synthetic oil) and it will last longer, but eventually it WILL burn out.

Posted by: lseguy

I honestly can't recall the specifics of her reasoning, but I do recall it did mesh with the Owners Manual/Maintenance schedule regarding a "sealed" automatic transmission/no flush required.

Lincoln isnt the only company that has "lifetime fill" transmission fluid fills. My other car (BMW M3) also is listed as having a "lifetime fill" of tranny fluid.

Granted, I'll probably get that one flushed once during my ownership as well. Unlike my brother, whose 1993 325i with 203k has NEVER had it's auto tranny flushed. But yet, it still shifts tight and crisp as new. Go figure.

Posted by: ToddG

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97stscaddy

From searching, it appears that the LS trans fliud cannot be serviced by the backyard mechanic. Not unless he plans to buy a trans fluid exchanger.
Anybody have an idea what it would cost for the dealer to do this? I figure at 56k miles its probably hasn't been done yet, and should be. (especially with the way I drive :P )

Why don't you just ask your dealer for the cost?

Wanted to ask why you're doing this. Is your transmission giving you problems? Or do you just "feel" the fluid should be changed? Over my 8 years following the LS, I've seen lots of people change the transmission fluid, only to regret it later. Consider carefully why you think you need this service done, especially if your transmission is working fine. It's a case of "It ain't broke, so don't fix it".

Posted by: Jim Henderson

I HATE "LIFETIME" anything unless it is warranty coverage.

Lifetime is just long enough that the manufacturer figures no one can blame them for a component failure. Now if the mfg guarantees the engine and tranny for life, then I have no squawk on lifetime fluids or anything else. But interestingly For has decreased their warranty time on the Lincolns, so maybe things aren't as lifetime as they want you to believe.

ALL components and fluids wear out and have an "optimum" service life and then there is the maxiumum or lifetime service life at which point the fluid has failed. I do NOT like lifetime service intervals or even extended intervals. My experience with ALL extended or lifetime service intervals is that things start to look pretty yucky a some point. Ask people how many of their lifetime lubed ball joints and bearings have failed?

My persoanl LS case in point, my lifetime lubed tranny failed at 15K, diagnosis was fluid failure, duh. Lifetime lubed wheel bearing failed at 40K, I am guessing lube failure don't know, dealer didn't say.

Other example, 100K mile spark plugs. BS in my opinion. I had 100K plugs on my previous car. It started to run rough at 80K , pulled the plugs, they looked like those posters you see on garage walls showing totally worn out plug pictures, electrodes were more worn out than any other plug I have ever pulled on my regulalary serviced engines.

A second issue which I have not had enough miles yet, but I have heard horror stories on 100K plug changes on cars with aluminum heads. Cadillac Northstars are notorious for the plug "rusting" into the head and stripping the head when removed at 100K. Many independent garages refuse to change them and send you to Cadillac. They don't want the blame when they strip the threads. I bet this is also a problem with the LS. Mine were changed at 40K due to coil issues so it will be awhile before I need to worry about this.

100K Antifreeze?? Starts to look yucky at about 50K in my previous car and my LS. The fluids gather contaminants over time and start to deposit them in the overflow bottle. Maybe by the service manual that is OK, but just doesn't seem right. So I plan to change well before the what, 150K interval?

I use synthetic oils in all my vehicles since 1980. I occasionally did extended drains and didn't like how the oil looked even though it had not gotten to the maximum the mfg recommended. So I change my syn at the "normal" factory interval.

Most of this is my visual interpretation of what I see. I suppose you could chemically check things, they do with oil, but to me it is just better and probably safer and cheap insurance to change fluids and some components well before their rated life, especially lifetime stuff.

Just my cranky opinion of "Lifetime" stuff.

Jim Henderson

Posted by: Frogman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Henderson

100K Antifreeze?? Starts to look yucky at about 50K in my previous car and my LS. The fluids gather contaminants over time and start to deposit them in the overflow bottle. Maybe by the service manual that is OK, but just doesn't seem right. So I plan to change well before the what, 150K interval?

I have to disagree with you on this. The coolant I use has a service life of 500K miles. This is a tested an proven fact, not some dyno video. And, it also boils at 375F, so you don't have to worry about vapor barriers like you do with regular coolant. But, at $32 a gallon, what do you expect?

Posted by: lseguy

To each his own. But for me, based upon my 20 year driving history, the max I've ever had a car was for 120k miles. Im guessing at most I will have the LS for, is another 4-5 years which would put me at 150k or so.

With that in mind, one tranny flush at the halfway point for the $175 the Ford dealer charged, works for me. And since 1990, I've owned 5 cars, including the ones I own now, and I've always done 10k oil and filter changes with Synthetic. Never came close to having an engine wear out. In fact, Im confident I could use regular dino oil for 10k intervals, but it makes me "feel" better having the WalMart house brand synthetic in there for that amount of time.

Using synthetic every 5k is a bit excessive to me...but again, to each his own.

Posted by: 97stscaddy

Quote:

Wanted to ask why you're doing this.

Preventative maintanence.
Out of the 9 cars ive owned, only 1 ever gave me transmission trouble. It died at ~125k miles because the fluid had NEVER been changed. Since then every car ive owned has gotten fresh transmission fluid within a month or so of me buying it. I havent had any transmission related problems since.
My sisters Toyota Camry, 130k miles on original fluid... tranny died.
Coincidence? Maybe. Who knows for sure. But I feel more comfortable driving a car that has had regular fluid changes, than one that has been neglected.

Posted by: eastcoastLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97stscaddy

It died at ~125k miles because the fluid had NEVER been changed.

Did you buy this vehicle, brand new?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97stscaddy

My sisters Toyota Camry, 130k miles on original fluid... tranny died.

Toyota's have a transmission?

Posted by: Jim Henderson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frogman

Sounds like some pretty good stuff. What kind is it and where do we get some? If it has a 500K service life I would go for that but probably out of scepticism change at less than half anyway, but still 250K would be lifetime for me. I would love a car where I never had to change the coolant and where it stayed pretty, a psychological problem with me, don't like yucky fluids. $32/ gallon would be cheap in my book, the regular stuff costs $10+/gallon so 3x service life works on the $$.

The best coolants I have seen at stores are 100K to 150K change intervals. I had 100K fluid in my chebby and it looked like a sewer after about 50 or 60K, could be the GM mudballs they use. Even after I flushed and refilled it still looked a bit yucky at 100K + so I flushed again. My LS with 50K on it has some scum in the overflow tank. Doesn't look terrible yet but I probably won't like the looks of it at 100K. I am already sniffing around the coolant section in the store.

The old green stuff was good for 20-30K so we have come a long way, I just don't like the marketing hype pushing things too far.

I'm not one of those guys who think black oil is bad, but with ATF and coolant I am picky about color and any scum, so this is why I change those two fluids well before the claimed "lifetime".

Tell us where to get some.

Jim Henderson

Posted by: Frogman

www.evanscooling.com

Data sheets, facts, etc all there.

Been running it in my 03 powerstroke for some time now.

Posted by: 97stscaddy

Quote:

Toyota's have a transmission?

That depends on FWD or RWD

Quote:

Did you buy this vehicle, brand new?

no, what does that have to do with anything?

Posted by: SoonerLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97stscaddy

no, what does that have to do with anything?

I think his question is about how you can know that the tranny fluid had never been changed if you didn't buy the car new.

Posted by: eastcoastLS

yes.

Posted by: Sn8kbordin

Regular customer thinks about maintenance cost of a car they will buy.
Engine and tranny work are usually expensive. Therefore manufacturers advertise it as "lifetime tranny fluid" when they define "lifetime" as, for example, 150K miles or 10 years.
In the end a vehicle with spark plugs that last 100K miles and lifetime tranny fluid seems cheaper/even to maintain than its competitor.
I've changed tranny fluid in my LS at 50K, but I autocross it and I don't baby it as far as driving goes. My 96 Olds Cutlass didn't have tranny fluid changed ever and its at 106K miles now, but my mom drove it for 90K miles or so.

Posted by: 97stscaddy

Quote:

I think his question is about how you can know that the tranny fluid had never been changed if you didn't buy the car new.

I guess I cant be completely sure that it had never been changed, but the filter in it sure looked original, and the fluid looked and smelled disgusting. I took it apart after it crapped out just for fun.
The car was a "hand me down" Dodge 600 that was owned by my great grandfather until he sold it to my mom for a buck. She put at least 50k on it during the time she had it, and I know SHE never had the fluid changed.
It was then given to my sister after she wrecked her first car. And she drove it a year or so until she went off to college, at which point it was passed on to me. I drove it for about a year and a half, then it up and died.
I didnt know wtf I was doin under the hood of a car back then. But I had some tools, and my friend had just bought a lift to put an engine in his Volvo with, so we yanked the engine and trans out of it and had some fun taking them apart. We learned the hard way that you DONT CUT a/c hoses...

Anywho, I figured the fluid in that thing had never been changed because it was almost black.

Posted by: Brake.My.Window

there is no such thing as lifetime tranny fluid i work at a bmw and mercedes shop and they start to slip since the flid is worn out and my only adbise after what iv seen is dont flush over 75,000

Posted by: Fla02LS

I have a '05 with 58k and i have already done a tranny flush at the dealer. Cost was $129.99. I didnt know the habits of the previous owner and figured new cant be any worse than the old. I'll tell you another story about tranny flushes. I have a Dodge Intrepid which uses ATF+4 fluid which "used" to only be available at dealers. Well being dumb i topped off the tranny fluid with a universal synthetic fluid. Within a few miles the CEL light came on and indicated transmission problems. I then took it to a Chrysler dealer and told them to do a tranny flush. The tech guy told be that he found metal in the fluid and recomended a rebuild. I told him to just do the tranny flush, that was about 30k miles ago. No more CEL light, no problems what so ever. Drives fine. All makes and models have tranny horror stories. I cant see how you can go wrong by doing a flush. I say go for it.

Posted by: jontz

OK, this question moves us backwards, but why can't the average backyard mechanic change the tranny fluid in this car? I understand that you won't get all the fluid out this way, but why can't you just drop the pan like any other car?

Posted by: Quik LS

Draining isn't hard - the trannie has a pan mounted drain plug - it's filling that is hard. It's a fill / flush system - so they use pressure (~ 30psi) to push new fluid into the transmission with a Fluid Transporter/Evacuator/Injector tool (a fluid canister with a pressure attachment). They fill it through a nozzle in the bottom of the pan... not only is the fill tube but also the level indicator, so you fill it until the level of the fluid in the pan is above the tube, then is will drain back out if it goes over the height of the level tube....

you can do it at home - need a compressor, get the car in the air (level), a vacuum/pressure canister, and the attachment nozzle.

Posted by: jontz

Ahhh...gotcha. Just after I bought this car, the valve body went on the tranny. The guy who sold it to me (a friend of mine, owns his own shop) changed the valve body for me for free since it failed basically the day I got it. It shifts fine now, but I doubt that he knows the proper filling proceedure for this tranny. Methinks I had better get it over to the Ford dealer to have them do a proper flush and fill before I head out on vacation.

Posted by: o3sonicbluexlt

even goodyear dealers/gemini dealers cannot service the tranny. after my fiasco in detroit, i was told by the lincoln dealer that it is a lifetime tranny fluid after he made fun of me by going to a gemini dealer in the first place. after 5 quarts were drained from the tranny by the dealership, the tranny shifts just fine now

Posted by: 97stscaddy

Did anyone else notice the drain and refill procedure outlined on the bottom of the pan? I found that the last time I was under the car just a few weeks ago. Its kind of etched into it. I don't remember what it says, but I do remember it mentioning several fill/check plugs, which I couldn't locate. Ill have to put it on a lift a work again and get a better look.

Posted by: SoonerLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97stscaddy

I don't remember what it says, but I do remember it mentioning several fill/check plugs, which I couldn't locate. Ill have to put it on a lift a work again and get a better look.

The fill/check plug is the plug in the pan; you fill it until fluid comes back out the hole.

Somewhere around here (I think), there's a cross-sectional diagram that illustrates the dual nature of the plug...

Posted by: pragmatic

Quote:

Originally Posted by jontz

OK, this question moves us backwards, but why can't the average backyard mechanic change the tranny fluid in this car?

I don't know I just pulled the drain plug. Once empty I filled until it ran out the fill plug. But then again I have a manual transmission, which Ford recommends fluid changes every 60,000 miles.