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Here's what 250 tons of explosives looks like.

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: MonsterMark

Posted by: Joeychgo

See, now I thought it looked different --- doesnt it look like a bunch of smaller boxes being looted by terrorists while our understaffed military can only just watch because they are so outnumbered?

Must be - thats what they said on FOX

Posted by: 97silverlsc

It would be nice if the 380+ ton that are missing looked like that, but unfortunately for our troops, it looks like roadside bombs, truck bombs and is worn by suicide bombers that are having devastating results on our troops and innocent civilians. It's a shame that your concern for the troops wellbeing doesn't outweigh your desire to protect Shrub and the rest of the incompetents in his administration that got us into an unjusifiable war.

Posted by: MonsterMark

Try as I may to put myself into the mindset of a liberal, I just can't. And I don't/can't/won't understand what makes you guys tick.

We have destroyed millions of pounds of munitions and yet you're not happy. But you would be happy if all those munitions were just laying around for anybody to grab. Let me stop right there because I can see your lips moving. They were being watched by the IAEA. I mean they had placed a small piece of wire around the door, securing it and they were making periodic inspections, right.

What you really prefer is unguarded weapons in the millions of pounds to capturing and destroying 80% of the munitions so far? Like I said, I can't figure you guys out.

Politically, I am going for the throat. Like President Bush said, we have earned the capital and we're going to spend it. Conservatives have the power and we're going to use it. We don't need to offer an olive branch, we need to crush the liberals and the liberal movement to preserve America for our future generations as a land of the free and a home for the brave. Not a bunch of whiny little tree huggers that walk around singing, "Give peace a chance".

We'll win in Iraq. We'll win in Iran. We'll win in North Korea. We'll win because that is who we are. WINNERS!

See you in 4 years.

Posted by: Joeychgo

It has nothing to do with liberal or conservative - tree huggers or right wing nut jobs -

It has to do with leaving 380 MILLION tons of explosives virtually unguarded.

What would you say if that explosives cache were left unguarded at a warehouse in Milwalkee and that warehouse was looted? What would you say then? Who might you blame?

To answer your question - what I would prefer is that such a large cache of explosives be properly guarded with adequate US Army Personnel and Armored Vehicles - as opposed to being "monitored" but a small handfull of US Army personnel who have little choice but to watch as the cache is looted because they are too small in number and unequipped.

Posted by: Sifrino3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeychgo

See, now I thought it looked different --- doesnt it look like a bunch of smaller boxes being looted by terrorists while our understaffed military can only just watch because they are so outnumbered?

Must be - thats what they said on FOX

You watch to much TV!

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeychgo

It has to do with leaving 380 MILLION tons of explosives virtually unguarded.

1st. You sound like Austin Powers... the price will be 1 miillllioonn dollars. LOL.

It was "only" 380 tons, not 'million' tons. 380 million tons would be 760,000,000,000 pounds. I think that would be just a wee bit much.

2nd. You make it sound like the US just abandoned it and left for the taking. Have you seen the size of that facility? Something like 20 square miles and a thousand bunkers.

3rd. There were only a couple roads that led into/out of the site. These happened to be US supply line roads. Heavily travelled by US convoys after we entered Iraq. I find it next to impossible for about 20 truckloads of material to be simply loaded up and driven down the road, right in front of our eyes. Let's be realistic, the simplest answer is they were gone before we got there. It sucks, but that's the way it goes.

Is the bottle half-empty again for you guys?

Posted by: raVeneyes

well everyone...even right wingers....are sure it wasn't gone before we got there.

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by raVeneyes

well everyone...even right wingers....are sure it wasn't gone before we got there.

Can you supply some articles backing your statement up? And please, no Krugman or Moore. We have all had enough of those guys.

Posted by: 97silverlsc

Middle East - AP
AP
Fate of Missing Iraq Weapons Unresolved

Fri Oct 29, 7:51 PM ET

By JOHN J. LUMPKIN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The fate of up to 377 tons of high-grade explosives missing from an Iraqi depot remained unresolved a week after it became a hot issue in the presidential election. The Pentagon (news - web sites) offered piecemeal information about operations at the base but was unable to say where the weapons went.

Some analysts are questioning the relevance of the debate, noting 377 tons is a pittance compared to the unclaimed arsenal left behind after Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime fell. Bush administration officials have repeatedly said some 400,000 tons of munitions and explosives have been either destroyed or are slated to be destroyed. They do not mention that, by military estimates, a minimum of 250,000 more tons remains unaccounted for.

On Friday, an Army major said his company had recovered and destroyed some of the munitions left at the Al-Qaqaa depot south of Baghdad after the invasion. A Pentagon spokesman asserted some of that was of the same type as the missing explosives that have become a major issue in the campaign.

Maj. Austin Pearson said his team removed the 250 tons of plastic explosives and other munitions on April 13, 2003 ? 10 days after U.S. forces first reached the Al-Qaqaa site.

But those munitions were not located under the seal of the U.N. International Atomic Energy Agency ? as the missing high-grade explosives had been. And Pentagon spokesman Larry Di Rita could not definitely say whether they were part of the missing 377 tons.

Di Rita sought to point to Pearson's comments as evidence that some RDX, one of the high-energy explosives, might have been removed from the site. RDX is also known as plastic explosive.

Whether Saddam's forces removed the explosives before U.S. forces arrived on April 3, 2003, or whether they fell into the hands of looters and insurgents afterward ? because the site was not guarded by U.S. troops ? has become a key issue.

The window in which the explosives were most likely removed from Al-Qaqaa opens on March 15, 2003 ? five days before the war started ? and closes in late May, when a U.S. weapons inspection team declared the depot stripped and looted.

Two weeks ago, Iraqi officials told the United Nations (news - web sites)' International Atomic Energy Agency that the explosives vanished as a result of "theft and looting ... due to lack of security" and said this took place after the invasion.

The explosives were known to be housed in storage bunkers at the sprawling Al-Qaqaa complex and nearby structures. U.N. nuclear inspectors placed fresh seals over the bunker doors in January 2003. The inspectors visited Al-Qaqaa for the last time that March 15 and reported that the seals were not broken, concluding the weapons were still inside at the time.

A U.S. military reconnaissance image, taken on March 17, shows two vehicles, presumably Iraqi, outside a bunker at Al-Qaqaa. But Di Rita said that bunker was not known to contain any of the 377 tons and that the image only shows that there was activity at the depot after U.N. inspectors left.

Troops from the 3rd Infantry Division first arrived on April 3 en route to Baghdad. They fought a battle with Iraqi forces inside Al-Qaqaa and moved on, leaving a battalion behind. That unit didn't specifically search for the 377 tons of missing high explosives but did find some munitions on the base. On April 6, the battalion left for Baghdad.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and others have advanced the theory that the materials were removed before U.S. forces arrived, saying looting that much material would be impossible by small-scale thieves and that a large-scale theft would have involved many trucks and would have been detected.

About four days later, elements of the 101st Airborne Division moved into the area but did not search Al-Qaqaa.

On Friday, Lt. Col. Fred Wellman, a 101st spokesman, said "several thousand" soldiers from the division ? primarily aviation elements ? moved into the area when the 2nd Brigade left, and operated there for several weeks before moving into northern Iraq (news - web sites).

Wellman said no one he has talked to can confirm seeing the IAEA sealed weapons.

"We went in there and looked for chemical weapons to make sure there was not a risk to our soldiers, and then we actually tried to leave the bunkers and storage facilities alone," Wellman said. "We weren't trained to go through there so we tried to stay out of there as much as possible."

Wellman said there was looting in the area, but they were able to prevent looting in the section where the division was operating.

On April 13, Pearson's ordnance-disposal team arrived and took 250 tons of munitions out and later destroyed them.

On April 18, a Minnesota television crew traveling with the 101st Airborne shot a videotape of troops as they first opened the bunkers at Al-Qaqaa, which shows what appeared to be high explosives still in barrels and bearing the markings of the International Atomic Energy Agency.

U.S. weapons hunters did not give the area a thorough search until May, when they searched every building on the compound over the course of those three visits, but they did not find any material or explosives marked by the IAEA.

Any unsecured munitions that the insurgents can get their hands on is being used against our troops. Do you really support the troops if you think this a non issue?

Posted by: 97silverlsc

Oct. 28, 2004 -- A Minnesota television station news crew reporting from Iraq in the spring of 2003 came very close to the spot where tons of high explosives are alleged to have disappeared.

Resources

* KSTP-TV 5 Eyewitness News, Minneapolis/St.Paul

Based on GPS data and confirmation from officials of the U.S. Army's 101st Airborne Division, KSTP-TV 5 Eyewitness News determined its crew was on or near the southern edge of the Al-Qaqaa installation on April 18, 2003, nine days after the fall of Baghdad.

KSTP in St. Paul is an ABC News affiliate station. Its journalists were embedded with the 101st at the time and shot exclusive footage that may raise new questions about the controversy surrounding the fate of those munitions.

Some 377 tons of high explosives ? HMX and RDX and PETN ? are said to be missing from the Al-Qaqaa weapons depot and questions have arisen about what the United States knew about the site and what it did to secure it.

During the April 2003 visit, the KSTP reporters say they witnessed U.S. soldiers using bolt cutters to get into bunkers. Inside, they found many containers marked "explosives." At least one set of crates carried the name "Al-Qaqaa State Establishment."

Military personnel told KSTP that the outside perimeter of the area visited had been secured. But the journalists say the area felt more like no-man's-land.

"At one point, there was a group of Iraqis driving around in a pickup truck," said former KSTP reporter Dean Staley. "We were worried they might come near us."

Photojournalist Joe Caffrey recalls seeing Iraqis watching them as they went through the bunkers. As his crew and the troops from the 101st departed each bunker, they left them open.

"We weren't quite sure what we were looking at," said Caffrey. "But we saw so much of it and it didn't appear that this was being secured in any way. It was several miles away from where military people were staying in their tents."

Caffrey also recalled overhearing a military briefing after curious soldiers had encountered another bunker.
"Apparently two soldiers had gone in to these bunkers, lit a match for light and the fumes or powder ? whatever it was, exploded and burned their clothes off," he said. "Shortly thereafter, everyone was told to stay away from these bunkers"

Resources

* KSTP-TV 5 Eyewitness News, Minneapolis/St.Paul

Another bunker encountered by the 101st Airborne and the KSTP crew was locked with chains and a seal left by inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency. According to the IAEA, the seal marked a facility suspected of holding "dual-purpose" materials that could be used to produce nuclear weapons.

Posted by: 97silverlsc

Posted on Wed, Oct. 06, 2004
Outside Baghdad, lawlessness haunts a small Iraqi town

BY RICK JERVIS

Chicago Tribune

LATIFIYAH, Iraq - (KRT) - There is no traffic in Latifiyah.

No cars, chickens, pigs, people or roadside cigarette stands - a staple in most Iraqi towns. Shops are shuttered, homes are closed and quiet, and, most disturbing to at least one Marine charged with patrolling this rural town 20 miles south of Baghdad, there are no signs of children.

"They play inside," said Sgt. Yousif Almoosawi, a platoon sergeant with the 2nd Battalion, 24th Marine Regiment, as he pointed his M-16 assault rifle down another empty alley. "Not a good sign."

Away from the spotlight of insurgent uprisings in Fallujah, Ramadi and Baghdad, Latifiyah has quietly become a lawless, lethal thorn in the side of U.S. troops here. Local police have fled or been killed, leaving the town in the hands of Islamic insurgents, kidnappers and common thugs, military officials said. To stress that point, insurgents blew up the police station two weeks ago.

The streets around Latifiyah have become so laced with roadside bombs - known in military parlance as improvised explosive devices, or IEDs - that military officials here call it the "IED capital of Iraq."

Two French journalists were kidnapped last month from the highway that cuts through Latifiyah. Earlier this month, gunmen ambushed a convoy carrying Ahmad Chalabi, leader of the Iraqi National Congress, on the highway outside Latifiyah, killing two of his bodyguards. Chalabi survived.

The struggle to return order to towns like Latifiyah highlights the challenges faced by coalition forces to secure Iraq before general elections in January, an effort that stretches beyond the big-name cities and into towns and enclaves all over the country.

Without such stability, Washington and Baghdad must decide whether elections can be held in all parts of the country and whether they would be considered legitimate if all Iraqis don't participate. The U.S. also must decide how many casualties - military and civilian - it would be willing to accept to pacify more remote areas of the country.

"Right now, Latifiyah is more dangerous than Fallujah," said Sgt. Devon Hawkins, another platoon sergeant with the 2nd Battalion, 24th Marines. "Every day we have an IED. Everyday someone who is seen working with Americans gets killed here. It's complete lawlessness."

Since the U.S. military closed nearby Highway 1, Highway 8 has become the main thoroughfare between Baghdad and the southern cities of Najaf, Nasiriyah and Basra. The Iraqi National Guard has permanent stations in Mahmoudiya and Iskandariyah. But in between, towns on Highway 8 like Latifiyah have been overrun by insurgents, military officials said.

Their weapon of choice: IEDs. The homemade devices incorporate 81 mm mortar shells, 130 mm or 155 mm artillery rounds or 100-pound aerial bombs, many times daisy-chained together and wired to a stand by the side of the road, where a triggerman waits for passing convoys, officials said.

One recent Saturday night, a Marine Mobile Strike Team discovered an IED made of 15 130 mm artillery shells daisy-chained by the side of Highway 8, officials said.

Later that night, a six-vehicle convoy was returning from a mission in central Latifiyah when an IED exploded under one of the armored Humvees. The bomb disintegrated the Humvee's front end. Its transmission and engine parts rained down on the vehicles behind it, and the grenade launcher mounted on its roof was found in a field 30 feet away, according to a witness.

Officials blamed insurgents who they described as Baath Party loyalists and an assortment of common criminals.

All five passengers survived, saved by the Humvee's armor. With two weeks in Iraq, three members from the 2nd Battalion, 24th Marines have been recommended for Purple Hearts.

Sgt. Eliasard Alcauter, a vehicle commander, was in the back seat.

"I saw a bright flash but didn't even hear the bang," said Alcauter, who suffered a mild back sprain. "Next thing I know, it was like I was riding a rodeo horse. The vehicle was bouncing up and down. It was crazy."

The insurgents probably are using weapons and ammunition looted from the nearby Qa-Qaa complex, a 3-mile by 3-mile weapons-storage facility about 25 miles southwest of Baghdad, said Maj. Brian Neil, operations officer for the 2nd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment, which initially patrolled the area.

The facility was bombed during last year's invasion and then left unguarded, Neil said. "There's definitely no shortage of weapons around here," he said.

The task to secure Latifiyah had belonged to the 2nd Battalion, 2nd Marines, which went after insurgents with large offensives and tactical cordon-and-search missions. Earlier this month that responsibility was handed to the 2nd Battalion, 24th Marines, a unit with headquarters in Chicago comprising mainly reservists from Illinois, Wisconsin and Iowa (slogan: "Mayhem from the Heartland").

The battalion of Chicago police officers, Milwaukee students, mortgage brokers, defense lawyers, sales representatives, nurses and engineers - totaling more than 1,000 - could be useful as U.S.-led coalition forces continue their shift from a military role to security and reconstruction duties, military officials said.

"Marines are trained for full combat," said Lt. Col. Mark Smith, the battalion's top commander. "Police officers, by nature, are trained (to understand) that the level of violence inflicted on people is reflective of the action of the people. That could be a useful skill here."

But the handover of a hostile area to a new battalion, made up of many inexperienced combatants, has its growing pains.

On Sept. 27, three platoons took off from the base in Mahmoudiya with a predawn mission to sweep through Latifiyah on foot patrols. But on the way there, a Humvee ran off the road and into a ditch, a 7-ton truck nose-dived into a canal and another Humvee lost a tire, said Capt. Tom Wotka, the daytime battle captain. As four injured Marines were evacuated, insurgents lobbed mortars at the truck accident site, Wotka said. No one else was seriously injured, he said.

"Operating as a battalion is something we haven't done much of," Wotka said. "The tactics of this are really simple. It's the actions that make this complex."

The day before, the battalion's Fox Company launched a mission to look for IEDs along Highway 8. The Marines motored down Highway 8, passing the charred carcasses of more than 20 vehicles destroyed by IEDS - including an Opel car, a Mercedes-Benz minivan and an 18-wheel truck - on a 2-mile stretch through Latifiyah named "IED Highway" by Marines.

The convoy of vehicles stopped, 100 yards apart, diverting midday traffic to a dirt side road. Marines jumped out and began searching the sides of the highway for discolored mounds of dirt, ill-placed boxes or other signs of roadside bombs.

After an hour without finding any bombs, they were radioed instructions to find a spare M-16 barrel lost by another unit in a residential section of southern Latifiyah. On their way there, trying to alternate their routes to confuse the enemy, the convoy sped on dirt roads along canals on the outskirts of the town - and got lost. Then a Humvee got stuck in a ditch and needed help getting out.

When they arrived, the Marines created a defense cordon around the southern stretch of town while a team of three Marines, led by Capt. Joel Northey, a platoon commander, walked through Latifiyah's desolate streets, kicking through trash piles, peering down alleys and asking the rare resident on the street, through a translator, whether they had seen any military equipment. They hadn't.

The Marines, with their M-16s ready, moved slowly and deliberately, securing corners before crossing streets, scanning rooftops and peering over the fences of homes.

The spare barrel was never found. But the stroll through town had another mission, Northey said. Marines from the previous unit often had been shot at by snipers in the same section of town.

"This is a way to show them they're not going to chase us out with sporadic gunfire," Northey said. "We're here to stay."

---

© 2004, Chicago Tribune.

Posted by: 97silverlsc

ANOTHER SCREW UP!!!!!!

U.S. expands list of lost missiles
By Douglas Jehl and David E. Sanger, New York Times, November 6, 2004

American intelligence agencies have tripled their formal estimate of shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile systems believed to be at large worldwide, since determining that at least 4,000 of the weapons in Iraq's prewar arsenals cannot be accounted for, government officials said Friday.

A new government estimate says a total of 6,000 of the weapons may be outside the control of any government, up from a previous estimate of 2,000, American officials said.

The officials said they did not know whether missiles from Iraq remain there or have been smuggled into other countries, though a senior administration official said Friday that "there is no evidence that they have left the country.''

It was unclear whether Iraqi military or intelligence personnel removed the missile systems during the initial invasion of Iraq or whether they disappeared from warehouses after major combat ended.

Shoulder-fired missiles - which are small, lethal and easy to use - are attractive weapons for terrorists. In recent months, Western intelligence and law enforcement agencies have repeatedly warned that Al Qaeda intends to use them to shoot down planes. In 2002, attackers who launched two small Russian-made SA-7 missiles almost hit a commercial aircraft taking off from Mombasa, Kenya. The new estimate of a larger number of the missile systems was discussed at a classified Defense Intelligence Agency conference in Alabama this week, the officials said. They declined to discuss the methods by which the new estimate had been reached, saying that it was classified.

American intelligence analysts have said in the past that during Saddam Hussein's rule, Iraq stockpiled at least 5,000 of these missile systems, and that fewer than a third had been recovered. The shelf life of the missiles can vary, with battery life depending on the conditions under which they are stored.

Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said last fall that "no threat is more serious to aviation" than the shoulder-fired missiles, which can be bought on the black market for as little as $5,000, are about five feet long and weigh as little as 35 pounds. More than 40 aircraft have been struck by shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles since the 1970's, causing at least 24 crashes and more than 600 deaths worldwide, according to a State Department estimate. In Iraq, the missiles have been used in more than a dozen attacks on American planes and helicopters, including those taking off and landing at Baghdad's international airport.

Posted by: raVeneyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

Can you supply some articles backing your statement up? And please, no Krugman or Moore. We have all had enough of those guys.

I guess someone besides me reads the news huh? LOL

The key to the articles are the imbeded news crew that video taped a US battalion opening the seals on the bunkers. The News crew has gone through everything it could to confirm where the crew was during the video tape, and has confirmed several ways that they were at the installation in question.