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"C" head swap

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Posted by: PHRANQUY

So, for those who don't know, and I'm pretty sure that all but maybe one person here doesn't know of recent developments, I am doing a "C" head swap on my car. I got a killer deal on a set of '04 heads off of a crate motor that had never been used, as well as all the timing gear, a set of 96-98 intake cams, and a few other things I needed.

I am wondering however, those of you who have done this, did you run into any problems with the intake? Also, what fuel rails have you used?

It was either rebuild my heads, or use the '04 heads. It was cheaper to use the '04 heads, and more condusive to my max effort N/A builds future.

Posted by: Frogman

Yeah, I don't think a 96-98 Cobra intake will work with the C heads

Posted by: PHRANQUY

Well, I do know how to get a "B" head intake to work on a "C" head car, just don't feel like tracking down the parts I need.

Or are you saying that the intake cams won't work? I've seen it done, and it's not the first time, Pauls High Performance saw some pretty decent gains by doing this in fact. Plus, there's no difference in the cam journals, so they will fit. The only thing some might view as a problem is the different lobes on the 96-98 cams.

I've done a lot of research on this and figured out which will generate the most power short of the FR500's which you can only get in a kit form.

Some specs for you to chew on...

Mach 1, 03/04 Cobra, Aviator, Marauder (the intake is from the Navigator)
Intake: 184 deg @ .050/.394 lift
Exhaust: 196 deg @ .050/.397" lift

96-98 Cobra:
Intake: Primary Lobe, 196 duration @.050/ 390 lift
Secondary Lobe, 206 duration @.050/ 390 lift
Exhaust: 196 duration @.050/ 390 lift

99/01 Cobra:
Intake: 196 duration @.050/392 lift
Exhaust: 194 duration @.050/390 lift

03/04 Cobras, Navigators, Mach 1s, Aviators and Marauders all use the same intake cam and they are less aggressive than the 99/01 Cobra cams. Additionally, the 96-98 Cobra intake cams are even more aggressive than the 99/01 Cobra cams.

I'll be doing custom cams when I build the bottom end of the car in another year, but for now I am just trying to take care of some of the simpler stuff.

Unless you can tell me why you think the 96-98 cams wouldn't work in place of the '04s?

Posted by: evillally

Use either:

99-04 Continental (probably cheapest and best for clearance. Will also be able to use Gen-I Mark fuel rails)
or
99-02 Cobra for an intake.

I know Unity is running an 04 power plant under his hood, so he'd be the expert to ask.

Quote:

I am wondering however, those of you who have done this, did you run into any problems with the intake? Also, what fuel rails have you used?

You'll need 96-98 Cobra return fuel rails to run either intake. The Conti intake could probably utilize Gen-I Mark VIII return rails, though. The 96-98 Cobra fuel rails will need to be slightly modified on the mounting tabs in order to mount to the C-Cobra intake. It's been done and there' pics floating about the Net somewhere.

Posted by: PHRANQUY

Problem, the 97 rails don't fit the '01 intake I have. We looked at pushing it here, pulling it there, we'd actually have to lengthen the flexible section to make it work. I'd rather sell these '97 rails.

I think I have found a solution though, but it requires the use of Aeromotive fuel rails.

Posted by: evillally

97...Cobra rails?

You can make them work withour having to drop $500 on a fuel setup. You'll need to have the mounting brackets cut off then welded into a different position. Let me try and find the photos...

Posted by: Frogman

Aeromotive is a good choice.

Posted by: m_maker

01-04 returnless rail with an adapter to allow mounting of a return fuel regulator in place of the FPS sensor:

Posted by: PHRANQUY

Quote:

Originally Posted by evillally

97...Cobra rails?

You can make them work withour having to drop $500 on a fuel setup. You'll need to have the mounting brackets cut off then welded into a different position. Let me try and find the photos...

No, we looked at moving the tabs, and even doing that, the flexible part of the line will need to be modified, or we'd need to bend the rails to get to 4 of the injectors. I'd rather just sell them to re-coup my money than damage a perfectly good fuel rail.

I already have many of the AN fittings I would need from when I built the fuel system for my truck. Not to mention, after some research last night, using the 97 fuel rails would only hold me over for a year...I have other plans for this car that are not friendly to the hose thats used in the existing line.

Posted by: PHRANQUY

Quote:

Originally Posted by m_maker

01-04 returnless rail with an adapter to allow mounting of a return fuel regulator in place of the FPS sensor:
[picture removed]

Where can I get this adapter?

Posted by: m_maker

Directly from KenneBell. It's in the 99+ GT kits. You can buy it separately.

Posted by: 94m5

Here is another decent question......

Where in the hell can I pick up a set of C heads? I have no problem finding B's, but e-bay has nothing, and I can't seem to find any on the mustang forums.

Mike

Posted by: Frogman

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHRANQUY

Well, I do know how to get a "B" head intake to work on a "C" head car, just don't feel like tracking down the parts I need.

I'm curious how you'd go about this since the intake ports are different from B heads to C heads, and just exactly what "parts" you'd need to track down.

Posted by: PHRANQUY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frogman

I'm curious how you'd go about this since the intake ports are different from B heads to C heads, and just exactly what "parts" you'd need to track down.

Some time between 1997 and 1999 when the Continentals went to a "C" head, they still used the "B" intake and Ford used a plate in between the head and the intake to make it work. We discovered this when we pulled the motor out of a Continental for a friends car, but because of this it wouldn't work. I just can't remember what years they did this.

Posted by: PHRANQUY

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94m5

Here is another decent question......

Where in the hell can I pick up a set of C heads? I have no problem finding B's, but e-bay has nothing, and I can't seem to find any on the mustang forums.

Mike

You have a PM. I sent you info on the shop I got mine from.

Posted by: Jibit

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHRANQUY

You have a PM. I sent you info on the shop I got mine from.

why can't you share this with everyone

Posted by: 94m5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jibit

why can't you share this with everyone

Find your own source Nancy!!!!

Posted by: evillally

Quote:

Where in the hell can I pick up a set of C heads?

You know those 99-02 Continental motors that appear on eBay for $200 every so often because nobody wants them?

Well, there you go...

Posted by: Jibit

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94m5

Find your own source Nancy!!!!

Nancy, who's Nancy?

I thought we were all a club here!

Posted by: Jibit

Quote:

Originally Posted by evillally

You know those 99-02 Continental motors that appear on eBay for $200 every so often because nobody wants them?

Well, there you go...

interesting, would have never known!

Posted by: Jibit

cool

Check it out!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-...QQcmdZViewItem

Posted by: evillally

Oh, and Kar Kraft sell new ones for $679.

Posted by: PHRANQUY

Quote:

Originally Posted by evillally

Oh, and Kar Kraft sell new ones for $679.

I got mine for less, complete with timing chains AND tensioners.

Try the guys at www.hitechmotorsport.com based out of Ramsey, MN (Unless they moved to their new shop in Elk River now) and talk to Brian. I'm very familiar with this shop. They actually get them off the '04 long blocks they use to build some of their cheaper forged motor combos with. Fortunately I am friends with a few of the guys that work there and they called me when they knew a set was going to be available.

The sets they don't sell also end up on Corral.

Posted by: evillally

Personally, I'd shoot for Terminator heads as opposed to the c-heads. Allegedly, the C-heads had some kind of ticking problem that was resolved with the Terminators. The "fixed" heads can be identified with the blue sprayed stripe on them...

Posted by: PHRANQUY

Um, might wanna double check your info, but the "Terminator" heads are "C" heads, but they were revised from the 99/01 (I.E. Tumble Port) heads. It was actually the 03 (or maybe 04? Pretty sure it's 03) heads that had a problem with the ticking and were fixed, all '04 heads SHOULD have the fix, and 03's that were produced in the later half of the year. They will not have the paint stripe though, you would need to look at the PN I believe. Or, if you get brand new crate motor takeoff's like I did, they would also have the fix.

Posted by: evillally

There are suttle differences between them. The Terminators are pretty identical-wise to the FR500's. I've read that the intake ports are the same- so you can interchange C/Term intake manifolds; but supposedly, the exhaust ports are a bit different...

Posted by: 94m5

Exaust ports are different. And thank you for jogging my memory on the conti engines.

Posted by: PHRANQUY

Yes, exhaust ports are most deffinately different, but, they are all still considered a "C" head. The difference is the 99-01 (02 if you count Australian Cobra's) heads are "Tumble Port", where the 03/04 heads are 03/04 or "Terminator" heads.

Posted by: Scorpio1118_2000

Will the kooks headers bolt to either of them?

Posted by: PHRANQUY

As far as I have seen, yes.

Posted by: Scorpio1118_2000

So the Continental, Marauder,Aviator,Mach1, and the 30/04 snakes have the same heads? All this time I was just looking the stangs and the mercury heads, this will greatly broaden my search thanks guys!

Posted by: PHRANQUY

Keep in mind that the cams are slightly different between years though.

Posted by: Scorpio1118_2000

Thats not so big of a deal unless they will rob me of power,and besides I can always get the cams from my heads or find a used set from one of the stang forums.

Posted by: Roadboss

Be sure you get 32 valve heads.

Posted by: Scorpio1118_2000

I thouhgt that all these particular V8s had 32 valve heads, does it differ from year to year?

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