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N. Korea claims to have tested nuclear weapon

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Posted by: marked8

The USGS said initially that there was no seismic activity on the Korean peninsula, but then they reversed themselves and say that something happened.
If they did successfully test a weapon then we could have some real problems ahead.

Posted by: marked8

USGS says it registered 4.2 on the richter scale.

Posted by: fossten

My deepest personal thanks to President Bill Clinton and former Secretary of State Madeline Albright, who got us into this mess.

<sarcasm off>

Posted by: Calabrio

I don't think it's too constructive to blame them, we should have known what we were getting when electing them. It was never a well kept secret that Clinton was a liberal. I do think it's important to note the failed world view and failed foreign policy philosophy that these liberal democrats clinge to and prevent it from gaining power again.

Ross Perot was a nutty troll and he profoundly hurt the country.

But if the electorate had been paying attention, in 1992 and 1996, they should have been aware of what they were getting. It was no secret. I wasn't able to vote in the 1992 election, but I remember repeatedly making the argument that this next President needed to be about foreign policy. The 90s were a transistionary period in the world. The cold war was ending, free markets were starting to establish holds in many parts of the world, and the 21st century was taking shape.

People still foolishly think the President is supposed to be involved in local issues. "President Bush spends too much time on foreign policy, he needs to focus on the.. broken parking meters in front of the movie theater in town."

So instead of getting of reelecting the congressman/vice-president/President/head of the CIA guy, they elected a guy with no military experience, no federal experience, corrupt Arkansas politican who then proceeded to nominate a paint-by-number administration, picking 60s liberals based on gender and race.

Instead of James Baker, we ended up with Warren Christopher and Madelign Albright. When George W. Bush became President in 2001, it reminded me of an old cartoon where they hand off bomb with a burning fuse to next guy.

Posted by: Joeychgo

Well, the people in charge during the last 6 years have done alot to prevent this...

Lets not go blaming Clinton for everything. After all, your guy had 6 years to avert this - and did nothing.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeychgo

Well, the people in charge during the last 6 years have done alot to prevent this...

Lets not go blaming Clinton for everything. After all, your guy had 6 years to avert this - and did nothing.

Here we go again.

"Oh yeah, well - well - Bush sucks!!! Yeah, that's the ticket!"

Explain to me what Bush should have done, Mr. Expert. The cat was already out of the bag before Bush took office. NK already had the technology thanks to Clinton's inaction. The only way we could have prevented them from testing a bomb would have been to invade in 2001. Thanks to the Democrats, Bush can't even fart without the MSM saying he lied. Now what?

I'm waiting for your bright idea.

*crickets*

Posted by: evillally

I call the DPRK's bluff. The "a-bomb" test is bullsh1t. They shoved a sh1tload of TNT into a mineshaft and detonated as a cover to cause a trip in a seismic sensor somewhere across Asia. If they really wanted to show us their litte wee-wee, they'd have conducted an open test of strength.

But don't let the fact that this is all a sham just to get us to some kangaroo diploatic meeting prevent us from conducting some "above-ground tests" of our own... right smack-dab in the center of Pyongyang

Posted by: MAC1

So what if he has a nuclear weapon. If Jong-il ever attacks the U.S. the consequences would be devastating. The problem is his willingness to share nuclear technology with terrorists. If he already has the capability to build a nuclear weapon then he has the capability to spread such technology. In other words, it’s too late.

Posted by: Joeychgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

"Oh yeah, well - well - Bush sucks!!! Yeah, that's the ticket!"

Explain to me what Bush should have done, Mr. Expert.
I'm waiting for your bright idea.

Fisrt - Bush has done little regarding NK - as well as Iran. See, of the 'Axis of Evil' GW picked the one who was lest likely to be harmful to start a war with.

To be fair, I think I understand his thinking at the time. We were already in Afghanistan, and by invading Iraq, we would be on 3 of Iran's borders (if you include the Persian Gulf as a border)

I suspect he hoped Iran would be scared enough to behave better. Clearly, it didnt work. Now, people are so fed up with the Iraq war, GW cant do anything militarily because he shot his wad in Iraq.

However, He has had 6 years to do something with NK. A different part of the world. Know what? China wants to protect NK, fine. You tell China we're going to affect THEIR commerce if they dont do something about NK. Do I think we should attack NK, not really. China should do it, or at least, we should have China's approval. If China doesnt want to give it... threaten to slap a 30% tariff on all imported Chinese goods.

Just a thought, but it would be action. GW has done little outside of Iraq. That war consumed our military and our administration - for nothing. 130,000 lives lost - and no WMD. No nothing.

Hell, you probably coulda gone to Hussain and said - "if you behave right, we'll invade Iran" and Saddam would have gone for it. Who knows.

One thing -- GW doesnt believe in the Stick and the Carrot, just the Stick. This is why people around the world hate us and him. Now, NK can sit back and say - What ya gonna do now? Answer - nothing.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeychgo

Fisrt - Bush has done little regarding NK - as well as Iran. See, of the 'Axis of Evil' GW picked the one who was lest likely to be harmful to start a war with.

To be fair, I think I understand his thinking at the time. We were already in Afghanistan, and by invading Iraq, we would be on 3 of Iran's borders (if you include the Persian Gulf as a border)

I suspect he hoped Iran would be scared enough to behave better. Clearly, it didnt work. Now, people are so fed up with the Iraq war, GW cant do anything militarily because he shot his wad in Iraq.

However, He has had 6 years to do something with NK. A different part of the world. Know what? China wants to protect NK, fine. You tell China we're going to affect THEIR commerce if they dont do something about NK. Do I think we should attack NK, not really. China should do it, or at least, we should have China's approval. If China doesnt want to give it... threaten to slap a 30% tariff on all imported Chinese goods.

Just a thought, but it would be action. GW has done little outside of Iraq. That war consumed our military and our administration - for nothing. 130,000 lives lost - and no WMD. No nothing.

Hell, you probably coulda gone to Hussain and said - "if you behave right, we'll invade Iran" and Saddam would have gone for it. Who knows.

One thing -- GW doesnt believe in the Stick and the Carrot, just the Stick. This is why people around the world hate us and him. Now, NK can sit back and say - What ya gonna do now? Answer - nothing.

You know what, Joey? You keep harping on your assertion that Bush didn't do anything about North Korea. That presumes that you think he should have done something about NK. That in turn presumes that there was something that needed to be done about NK. Thus, you tacitly admit that NK was not handled right by the previous administration. Heck, if Willie did such a damn good job with North Korea, WHY THE HELL would Bush have to do a DAMN THING ABOUT IT? The whole world was Utopia thanks to Clinton, right? He handed over the reins to Bush and there were absolutely no threats, right? If that's the case, then WHY do you keep saying that Bush should have done something?

You can't answer that without either admitting I'm right or by lying, so I will avail myself of the obnoxious

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC1

So what if he has a nuclear weapon. If Jong-il ever attacks the U.S. the consequences would be devastating. The problem is his willingness to share nuclear technology with terrorists. If he already has the capability to build a nuclear weapon then he has the capability to spread such technology. In other words, it’s too late.

He might not attack the U.S. He might attack South Korea. Or he might attack Japan. Hell, Japan might build their own nukes, which China won't like. Does anybody besides me know anything about WWII? Do you fools out there really think it's a good idea for the Japanese to have nukes?

Posted by: MAC1

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

Who cares if China has a problem with Japan having nukes? In fact, Japan should make clear that it's willing to build nuclear weapons for self defense and as a means to pressure China to come on board with sanctions against North Korea. Clearly, Japan needs to be able to defend itself one way or another. Nukes can be a deterrent to war as we learned during the Cold War. Moreover, Jong-Il isn't stupid enough to use nukes against South Korea. Again, if he uses nukes against anyone there would be immediate and devastating consequences.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC1

Again, if he uses nukes against anyone there would be immediate and devastating consequences.

From whom? The US? Don't make me laugh. All we ever do when Iran or NK threaten with nukes is say we're going to pass resolutions and write angry letters. We don't project our power anymore. We're a paper tiger, and we're going to be attacked unless some people get off their duffs and start acting like we actually have a military.

Why would Jong-Il care if we responded with nukes? He hates his people anyway: The proof is that they are starving to death and have to eat dogs.

Posted by: MAC1

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

Well, China would care if Jong-Il uses nukes because it would bring unwanted military action right to their back door. Don't be so cynical--Jong-Il loves his life as a two bit dictator. Once he uses nukes he’s finished. I think our bigger concern is the political nonsense that’s going on in Washington, D.C.

Posted by: Calabrio

US Doubts Korean Test was Nuclear
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published October 10, 2006

U.S. intelligence agencies say, based on preliminary indications, that North Korea did not produce its first nuclear blast yesterday.

U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said that seismic readings show that the conventional high explosives used to create a chain reaction in a plutonium-based device went off, but that the blast's readings were shy of a typical nuclear detonation.

"We're still evaluating the data, and as more data comes in, we hope to develop a clearer picture," said one official familiar with intelligence reports.
"There was a seismic event that registered about 4 on the Richter scale, but it still isn't clear if it was a nuclear test. You can get that kind of seismic reading from high explosives."

The underground explosion, which Pyongyang dubbed a historic nuclear test, is thought to have been the equivalent of several hundred tons of TNT, far short of the several thousand tons of TNT, or kilotons, that are signs of a nuclear blast, the official said.

The official said that so far, "it appears there was more fizz than pop."
A successful nuclear detonation requires a properly timed and triggered conventional blast that splits atoms, setting off the nuclear chain reaction that produces the massive explosions associated with atomic bombs.
White House spokesman Tony Snow said assessing the validity of North Korea's claim of a successful nuclear test could take several days.
"We need to find out precisely what it is that took place yesterday, and that is something that's going to take awhile for the scientists and others to work through," Mr. Snow said.

"Nobody could give me with any precision how long it will take until they can say with certainty what happened."

Nuclear bombs make big waves, with clear signatures that make them fairly easy to detect, analyze and confirm that they were caused by splitting atoms. But smaller blasts -- as North Korea's appears to have been -- are trickier to break down, scientists told the Associated Press.

"It takes days, dozens of lab hours, to evaluate results. Now we can have only a rough estimate," said Russian nuclear physicist Vladimir Orlov of the Moscow-based Center for Policy Studies in Russia, a nonproliferation think tank.

Elements of the blast were detected by U.S. and allied sensors as it was set off in an underground tunnel in the north-central part of North Korea. U.S. intelligence agencies have been monitoring several tunnels thought to be nuclear test facilities and have not ruled out Pyongyang's conducting another test.

U.S. officials said the test was timed to coincide with several anniversaries in North Korea, including the end of mourning for the death of North Korean leader Kim Jong-il's father, Kim Il-sung. The test was thought to have been linked to the commemoration.

North Korea's military thinks that joining the world's seven other acknowledged nuclear powers is key to preserving the power of the communist regime.

There were wide variations in seismic data of the North Korean blast. The French atomic agency estimated about 1 kiloton, and South Korea's geological institute said half of that. But Russia's defense minister expressed "no doubt" that North Korea detonated a nuclear test and said the force of the underground blast was equivalent to 5,000 to 15,000 tons of TNT.

"People have different ways of cross-cutting the data and interpreting them," said Lassina Zerbo, director of the International Data Center at the nuclear-test-ban preparatory commission, which is based in Vienna, Austria.
The Bush administration is pushing for the United Nations to adopt economic sanctions against North Korea that would include a blockade of all goods moving into and out of the country.

Key to the imposition of the tough sanctions will be support from China and Russia, two states that in the past opposed sanctions.

The most immediate impact of the underground test is that U.S. officials fear Japan will take steps to develop nuclear weapons as a deterrent.
Official North Korean press for the past several years has been asserting that the United States is planning a pre-emptive nuclear attack on North Korea over its secret uranium-enrichment program.

Intelligence reports from several years ago indicated that North Korea was engaged in a covert program to develop a uranium-based nuclear program with the help of Pakistani nuclear scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan. The Khan network supplied centrifuges and nuclear-weapons design techniques to Libya, Iran and North Korea.

What U.S. officials have been unable to confirm is whether North Korea received small warhead design information from the Khan network.
Chinese-language documents on how to build a nuclear warhead for missiles were found in Libya and were supplied by Khan network associates. U.S. intelligence officials think Iran and North Korea received similar warhead design documents.

North Korea in July conducted flight tests of seven missiles including a long-range Taepodong-2.

U.S. officials think the plutonium for the pit of the North Korean device was produced by the reactor at Yongbyon, the regime's declared nuclear facility.

U.S. intelligence agencies estimate that North Korea has some 88 pounds of plutonium and that about 13 pounds were used in the recent test.

The remaining plutonium is enough for North Korea to make about six bombs.

•Joseph Curl contributed to this article, which is based in part on wire service reports.

Posted by: JohnnyBz00LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

From whom? The US? Don't make me laugh. All we ever do when Iran or NK threaten with nukes is say we're going to pass resolutions and write angry letters. We don't project our power anymore. We're a paper tiger, and we're going to be attacked unless some people get off their duffs and start acting like we actually have a military.

You MUST be referring to BuSh, Cheney and Rumsfeld and how they are fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, LIKE PUSSIES. Complaints from military commanders have been stinging in their ears for YEARS now about not having enough troops on the ground to do the job, AND THEY HAVEN'T DONE SQUAT YET! This is proven by the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the fact we can't even keep control of the ONE city of Bahgdad. How the hell are these LOSERS going to wage war with a nuclear power? The fact is, we won't, because THEY CAN'T. The BuSh administration would just be happy for 1/20/09 to arrive and leave this mess for the next administration to handle. Instead of a new approach to these wars, they are satisfied to stay and lose at the expense of our children's blood.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS

Typical liberal response: Criticism without offering a substantive alternative other than cut-and-run.

And just FYI, I wasn't referring to Iraq. I was referring to our constant dealings with the UN concerning Iran and North Korea.

Name-calling piece of trolling debris.

Posted by: JohnnyBz00LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

Typical liberal response: Criticism without offering a substantive alternative other than cut-and-run.

Since you are incapable of reading comprehension, and have been deaf to the world around you, allow me to spell it out:

STEP UP OR STEP OFF.

Have you no other defense than to resort to childish name calling? Tsk tsk, pathetic.

Posted by: Joeychgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

That in turn presumes that there was something that needed to be done about NK. Thus, you tacitly admit that NK was not handled right by the previous administration.

No, The Clinton Administration was negotiating, talking, etc. GW changed that. These arent things that just plain end. GW took a different approach, and all he did was give NK time to finish the development of a nuke.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeychgo

LOL. This from the guy who still thinks Libby was the leaker.

Wrong again Joey. Clinton GAVE Jong-Il a nuclear power plant. When Bush discovered that NK cheated, which Albright ADMITTED to by the way, he punished them for cheating by cutting ties.

I guess Clinton should have been in office so he could have patted them on the back for cheating and sat down to sign another useless deal.

Talk does not matter to those people. Or hadn't you noticed?

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS

You're starting to sound like Vitas: More incomprehensible every day.

Posted by: Joeychgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

So the answer is what? Do Nothing? GW has done NOTHING.

Posted by: Calabrio

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeychgo

So the answer is what? Do Nothing? GW has done NOTHING.

Remember when you guys were complaining about Bush "going it alone?"

In regards to Korea, he's been engaged in six party, multilateral negotiations with the North Koreas. N. Korea has cut off communication, not the U.S.

And you said Clinton negotiated... well, what did we get out of those negotiations? Clinton negotiated, and somehow N. Korea ended up with millions of dollars in aid, uranium, AND nuclear weapons. And what did we get?

I don't think we can afford anymore Clinton/Albright style negotiations.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeychgo

So the answer is what? Do Nothing? GW has done NOTHING.

Actually, I think I have a really good idea for this situation.

We should arm the Japanese and Taiwanese with nukes. In addition, we should form an alliance with Taiwan and Japan in order to deter NK and China. That would effectively neutralize NK, and the Chinese would freak out so badly that they would push NK to put away their toys.

Ya gotta admit, it would be a bold move. We'd be like, "Whaddya gonna do now, China?"

Posted by: Joeychgo

Japan doesnt want nukes.

You want china to pressure NK? Punish China economically for NKs actions.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeychgo

Japan doesnt want nukes.

Wrong again. Where do you hear this stuff? From the same place you heard about Libby being the leaker?

Japan DOES want nukes. They will NOT sit idly by and allow NK to arm themselves without a response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeychgo

You want china to pressure NK? Punish China economically for NKs actions.

Never gonna happen. You want to punish all these American businesses that cooperate with China in good faith based upon treaties?

It is a common mistake to use economic means to attempt to influence military issues. Obviously. Look at the Clinton debacle.

Posted by: JohnnyBz00LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

In regards to Korea, he's been engaged in six party, multilateral negotiations with the North Koreas. N. Korea has cut off communication, not the U.S.

More like BuSh has been hiding from NK behind the coat-tails of the other 4 parties because he's AFRAID to engage in bi-lateral talks, which NK wants.

BuSh = Spineless PUSSY

Posted by: Calabrio

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS

More like BuSh has been hiding from NK behind the coat-tails of the other 4 parties because he's AFRAID to engage in bi-lateral talks, which NK wants.

BuSh = Spineless PUSSY

Take a step back.
Take a deep breath.

Look past you're irrational hate, through your gross ignorance,
try to view the situation objectively.

Why would he be "afraid" of bilateral talks?

Frankly, bilateral and multialteral talks have both proven ineffectual with the North Koreans, since they will not honor the agreements signed in either. But there is considerably more pressure and enforcement ability possible with an agreement done in six party talks.

If you want to contribute anything other than flame-bait, Johnny, tell us why Bush would be "afraid" of any neogtiations. And then tell us how bilateral talks are better than multilateral negotiations. How is is better to negotiate without the involvement of China and Russia, the countries responsible for supporting North Korea? And how are we better by not including the two countries immediately threatened by N. Korea, Japan and S. Korea?

And you are aware that we've had several rounds of 6 party talks, and an agreement was reached last year. North Korea has failed to abide by it though. You can never trust a communist, that's a political rule.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS

More like BuSh has been hiding from NK behind the coat-tails of the other 4 parties because he's AFRAID to engage in bi-lateral talks, which NK wants.

BuSh = Spineless PUSSY

This from the guy who believes we shouldn't confront people who hate us.
What a bunch of bullsh!t and putrid hate coming from you, Johnny. I can just picture you furiously pounding on your keyboard.

As I recall, the MSM is downplaying the NK threat, and has been for some time. So you are not only at odds with them, but with the right as well. Man, it must suck to be you, against the whole world.