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Lincoln LS put down 322rwhp and 339 rwtq...

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Posted by: KBX

Well here is an update for you all. Just wanted to tie up the loose ends for some of you asking questions on, "What happened to Rocket's 12 second LS project?".

The dyno read low from baseline to the last run. The car is really putting down closer to 350rwhp and 365rwtq SAE in actual. Enjoy...

2005 Lincoln LS Dyno Video

Posted by: GrayGhost1

Not bad at all. The 100 shot of nitrous seems to be quite a bit. I'm not an expert in N2O but how does that affect the internals? I'm assuming you can't use it all the time but giving it increase HP by over 100 HP is impressive.

Posted by: Quik LS

Very nice - glad to see the number!

and I take it KBX is you Rocket?

Posted by: Vaughn84

Wow! Impressive.

Posted by: Midas78

Nice post!! With the proof to back it!!

Posted by: fordtechguru

curious why the "curlycues" in the baseline run.... never seen that before... how did you pull timing out?

Posted by: Quik LS

so why are you posting under KBX?

Posted by: Quik LS

:edit: double post - sorry - somehow my post ended up before yours...

Posted by: KBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quik LS

:edit: double post - sorry - somehow my post ended up before yours...

To give an update on the project. I dont plan to post here at all. I will come in and answer this thread if tech questions arise, but the rest of the site I dont plan to have anything to do with. I would go into detail, but I would rather not to have the whiners come out of the woodworks.

Hope the S/C project is going well for you.

Posted by: KBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordtechguru

curious why the "curlycues" in the baseline run.... never seen that before... how did you pull timing out?

The dyno operator (monkey) pushed the log button before he punched the gas and the TC unlocked for a millisecond and then relocked. That is what it looks like on a dyno graph. Once the TC unlocks and then starts to relock the power spikes and then the rpms start to go down a bit due to the load being put back on the drivetrain.

Pulled timing with an Xcal2. Pulled 3 degree's from 3000 rpms on up.

Also, the reason why the graph is somewhat wavy till 5,000 rpm's has to do with the progressive controller. Nitrous solenoids only have full open and full closed functionality so to get 50% power out of them and ramp it up the controller pulses them at 14 times/second (14hz) or however often is desired for them to be pulsed at. How long the solenoids are left open between the pulses depends on the percentage of power wanted. Very similar to adjusting pulsewidth on a cars injectors in a fuel injection system. The progressive controllers have a hard time in the middle between minimum and max power so that is why the waviness is there till 5,000 where its programmed to hit full 100% power.

Posted by: Mac98SHO

Are you using ZEX kit, or another, or a combination of stuff?

Posted by: KBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac98SHO

Are you using ZEX kit, or another, or a combination of stuff?

Combination of stuff with my own fabrication mixed in.

Posted by: fordtechguru

cool, thanx for the update.... does the dynojet allow quarter mile runs like our md-1650 ?? if so what did it show?? i would love to take a blast under the "squeeze" just to feel the difference....lol

Posted by: KBX

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordtechguru

cool, thanx for the update.... does the dynojet allow quarter mile runs like our md-1650 ?? if so what did it show?? i would love to take a blast under the "squeeze" just to feel the difference....lol

Not that one. While the dyno run simulated 1/4 mile would be fun, there is no replacement for the real thing. Any 1/4 I ran in the dyno I would not count as a real ET anyways.

When blasting down the track with the 100 shot it gets exciting pretty quick. I reprogrammed it to be activated at 3,200 RPMs with 25% of the shot and then ramps to full 100% shot at 4,000 RPMS. When I launch I usually chirp a little and then when the engine hits 3,200 the nitrous kicks in and it starts squealing up to about 3,600. Once the tires get traction then the car pulls like a freight train all the way to the 1320' marker. It will push you into the seat pretty firmly. I really need DR's and a locker!

Posted by: Signal 20

who tuned the car?

not to sound like a jerk, but that isn't exactly the smoothest incline I've seen and the Air Fuel is a little wacked. It's safe being less than 12.0, but it's still all over the place.

Posted by: decibels5

other than ILLS and 02lse, have any other attempts been made to increase traction? It seems everyone that is spraying cannot hookup whatsoever. Alot of power and little traction is not a good combination for 1/4 mile racing.

Posted by: Signal 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by decibels5

other than ILLS and 02lse, have any other attempts been made to increase traction? It seems everyone that is spraying cannot hookup whatsoever. Alot of power and little traction is not a good combination for 1/4 mile racing.

I know I will be. I'm going to shoot for the first 10 second V6 Lincoln LS that is still a street car.

SO traction is going to be a big thing. I don't know how long this may take, but that is my goal. It's easy to do it with a mustang. I wanted to try something different. So I made it twice as hard. First I went with the LS instead of the Mark VIII then I got a V6 on top of it. I like a challenge.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Signal 20

who tuned the car?

not to sound like a jerk, but that isn't exactly the smoothest incline I've seen and the Air Fuel is a little wacked. It's safe being less than 12.0, but it's still all over the place.

I tuned the car. The reason the A/F's were all over the place is because the way the progressive controller ramped the nitrous/fuel shot. If I raised the HZ (pulse rate) of the solenoids then the power and A/F's would have smoothed out a little bit but then you run into issues of the solenoids having a larger propensity to crap out. Just the way the progressive controllers work with nitrous.

Posted by: ILLS

Just curious, but have you ever built a streetable 10 second car before? It isn't cheap or easy. Good luck with it, but I think that your eye's might be bigger than your stomache on that one. I vouch from personal experience that it is not easy to put a vehicle into the 10's, let alone one in the LS's situation.

Heavy car
Low initial power
Drivetrain would need totally replaced
Engine rebuilt to take high boost
Rear end would need replaced
yadda yadda yadda...

Unless you do your own work, or a majority of it, the bill will be insane. Heck, even when you do your own work it gets insanely expensive. If I were you I would shoot for maybe 12's, then once you go there think of another ET goal and go from there. I do not think you realize what it takes to run that kind of ET in streetable form with a car like this. More power to ya if you try though. I like do'ers one hell of allot more than talkers.

Posted by: Signal 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

Just curious, but have you ever built a streetable 10 second car before? It isn't cheap or easy. Good luck with it, but I think that your eye's might be bigger than your stomache on that one. I vouch from personal experience that it is not easy to put a vehicle into the 10's, let alone one in the LS's situation.

Heavy car
Low initial power
Drivetrain would need totally replaced
Engine rebuilt to take high boost
Rear end would need replaced
yadda yadda yadda...

Unless you do your own work, or a majority of it, the bill will be insane. Heck, even when you do your own work it gets insanely expensive. If I were you I would shoot for maybe 12's, then once you go there think of another ET goal and go from there. I do not think you realize what it takes to run that kind of ET in streetable form with a car like this. More power to ya if you try though. I like do'ers one hell of allot more than talkers.

Yeah. I've owned and built a few mustangs in the 10 second and faster range as well as a Grand National that was in the 11 second range.

I've been racing in NMRA for the past 3 years.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Signal 20

Yeah. I've owned and built a few mustangs in the 10 second and faster range as well as a Grand National that was in the 11 second range.

I've been racing in NMRA for the past 3 years.

Good stuff. I am glad to see another person on here that actually does a little wrenching on their vehicles.

As a gearhead and performance shop owner I must mention that if you want to hit 10's in a V6 LS while keeping it streetable and I assume non-gutted interior then you have a little bit of a hill to climb. Relatively speaking, it is easy to drop a Mustang into the 10 second zone if you just gut it, throw a big engine and a blower or shot of nitrous on it and so on. Heck, you can do a Fox Mustang into the 10's for dirt cheap on a budget build. It gets trickier when you do not have the luxury of throwing it all out and starting fresh or buildinng off an already established platform. As you know the Mustangs have a much much larger aftermarket than the LS does. That means custom fabrication and lots of it for anything and everything you do. I tend to specialize in building sleeper vehicles and it is a totally different ballgame then building a full on drag car; with the sleeper being much more difficult.

What are your plans for the LS then? Keeping the V6 and building the bottom end? What transmission? Keeping IRS or swapping to custom 4 link solid rear?

What class in NMRA do you race in? Good to see another Mustanger and gearhead around here.

Posted by: Garbone

ILLS,
Is your LS dif still in the works?

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garbone

ILLS,
Is your LS dif still in the works?

Yes it is. Jason and I will be working on his here shortly. He was waiting to get his driveshaft, which he has since received. He has a few more small items to get before we do the swap. I am still concentrating on the turbocharger so my swap will likely happen either this winter or probably next spring. I have a much larger and much much more important shop project coming up this winter that I need to start getting ready for after I put the final touches on the LS Turbo which is why my LSD swap will not happen till next season. Jason will be bringing his car down to me where we will perform the swap within time to get a few runs in by the end of this racing season.

Posted by: 02LSE96LSC91SE84TC

Posted by: chickenviii

^^ looks good 02asdfghjkl;'
(i was gonna say nice shaft

)

Posted by: Signal 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

Good stuff. I am glad to see another person on here that actually does a little wrenching on their vehicles.

Exactly... It's too easy to make a mustang go fast now a days. LOL
I wanted a challenge. LOL

There is going to be a lot of custom fab work done. I plan on working with Pro Power out of Fort Lauderdale, Fl. to get the items needed to build a strong enough bottom end to hold some good amount of boost. Ronnie Wilson of Specialties machining will be assembling the motor. Blow By Racing has done some awesome stuff with CNC porting and polishing of cylinder heads as well as doing custom regrinding of camshafts. So I'll be working a lot with them with the heads and cam work as well as the tuning of the car. I'm going to keep all the luxuries the car offers but I will also be having a 6 pt. cage installed in it by race car builders in Palm City, Fl. As for the transmission, I am not sure yet what I'm going to be going with. I want something streetable. That is my Number1 thing. I know it'll be a little more jerky, but I don't want to put in a C4 or anything like that. I think I'm going to keep the IRS in the car, but I will be making up some custom IRS braces and other strenghting items for the rear. I wont be running Slicks on the car, so wheel spin will be needed. Probably just a BFG Drag Radial. I'll take minor weight out of the car... Like I said... Lots of custom work, LOTS of TIME... and of course this is probably the reason I'm single. LOL

I run in the NMRA Factory Stock Class. It's not the fastest class, but it is a highly competitive class. To get an ALL MOTOR 281cid 2 Valve Convertible Mustang into the 11.30 @ 118 range is respectable I think.

Posted by: Brock

What plugs do you use with nitrous?

I contacted NGK, and after many emails back and forth, they had this recommendation. The dyno man also recommended the NGK Iridium IX.

"Brock for the 100 shot I would suggest going one heat range colder and
to also close the gap about .005-.007"" to about .037-.039". So you
would want the BKR6EIX-11 stock# 3764. Typically with one heat range
colder plugs and even two heat range colder plugs you will not be able
to notice a difference on a fuel injected engine."

Brandon Peeler
Technical Support Representative
Aftermarket Division
NGK Spark Plugs (U.S.A.), INC.
46929 Magellan Dr.
Wixom, MI 48393
Bpeeler@ngksparkplugs.com

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

What plugs do you use with nitrous?

I contacted NGK, and after many emails back and forth, they had this recommendation. The dyno man also recommended the NGK Iridium IX.

"Brock for the 100 shot I would suggest going one heat range colder and
to also close the gap about .005-.007"" to about .037-.039". So you
would want the BKR6EIX-11 stock# 3764. Typically with one heat range
colder plugs and even two heat range colder plugs you will not be able
to notice a difference on a fuel injected engine."

Brandon Peeler
Technical Support Representative
Aftermarket Division
NGK Spark Plugs (U.S.A.), INC.
46929 Magellan Dr.
Wixom, MI 48393
Bpeeler@ngksparkplugs.com

NGK did not have a plug that crossed over to copper and also dropped 2 heat ranges from stock. I ended up going with Champion plugs. I forget what part # they are but just take the stocker plugs, cross over to copper instead of iridium or platinum and then drop 2 heat ranges from there and that will be your proper nitrous plug. I did close the gap also. I want to say I gapped em at .035". Made good power, no spark blowout and things ran well.

Posted by: Brock

Wonder if one heat range instead of two has anything to do with the dry versus wet system?

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

Wonder if one heat range instead of two has anything to do with the dry versus wet system?

Nope. Regardless of dry vs wet you will still be looking at the same A/F's to shoot for. I suggest an 11.5:1 AFR in a car of your weight while on the nitrous to be safe.

Posted by: Brock

"11.5:1 AFR"

Yes, I have used 60 so far, but have an appointment with the dyno for three runs to be sure about 80, and 100. $80 will be well worth it to my peace of mind. Thanks.

Posted by: Brock

I forgot.

"cross over to copper instead of iridium or platinum and then drop 2 heat ranges from there and that will be your proper nitrous plug."

I assume what you are stating is that copper should be used, two ranges colder versus iridium and one range colder. If this is the case, then I need to determine why this conflicts with the recommendation of NGK, and my dyno man. They both specifically recommend the NGK Iridium IX in a nitrous application. I'm just trying to make the best choice. Thanks.

"Brock,

The iridium IX series work very well with nitrous and is what I suggest
whenever possible. The iridium center electrode has a much higher
melting and oxidation point over standard nickel alloy which helps it to
hold up much better to nitrous use. The special taper cut nickel ground
electrode also helps the flame kernel to expand faster and grow larger,
being able to burn more fuel and increasing ignitability. Hope this
helps clear things up. Thank you."

Best regards,

Brandon Peeler
Technical Support Representative
Aftermarket Division
NGK Spark Plugs (U.S.A.), INC.
46929 Magellan Dr.
Wixom, MI 48393
Bpeeler@ngksparkplugs.com

Posted by: Brock

Installed NGK Iridium IX plugs today, and the Motorcraft AGSP32F plugs that came out are stamped NGK which surprised me.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

I forgot.

"cross over to copper instead of iridium or platinum and then drop 2 heat ranges from there and that will be your proper nitrous plug."

I assume what you are stating is that copper should be used, two ranges colder versus iridium and one range colder. If this is the case, then I need to determine why this conflicts with the recommendation of NGK, and my dyno man. They both specifically recommend the NGK Iridium IX in a nitrous application. I'm just trying to make the best choice. Thanks.

"Brock,

The iridium IX series work very well with nitrous and is what I suggest
whenever possible. The iridium center electrode has a much higher
melting and oxidation point over standard nickel alloy which helps it to
hold up much better to nitrous use. The special taper cut nickel ground
electrode also helps the flame kernel to expand faster and grow larger,
being able to burn more fuel and increasing ignitability. Hope this
helps clear things up. Thank you."

Best regards,

Brandon Peeler
Technical Support Representative
Aftermarket Division
NGK Spark Plugs (U.S.A.), INC.
46929 Magellan Dr.
Wixom, MI 48393
Bpeeler@ngksparkplugs.com

Brock the problem lies in that NGK doesn't know crap about how and why nitrous oxide works; especially how to make nitrous work safely in a daily driver vehicle. A few reps may have an idea, but probably not as full a perspective as what is needed to give sound advice. The plats and iri plugs will last longer than coppers but the coppers will be safer with less detonation. You will go through more plug changes with the coppers but run a higher chance of detonation. NGK does not take that into factor which is why they say what they said. As for your dyno operator? Hehehe. I have ran into mannnnny monkeys who also could operate a dyno and trust me just because they run a dyno does not mean they know how to setup a vehicle for nitrous in the best manner on a daily driven vehicle. I actually had to teach one dyno operator how to operate certain functions on their dyno because it was taking too long for him to figure it out on his own. He was not a new guy either. Yeah, it is best to not take advice from those guys as allot do not know how or what to take into account for a proper setup.

Like I said, from the stocker plugs you will want to drop 2 heat ranges then cross over to copper. NGK does not support that particular plug which is why I went with Champions. You could run 1 heat range cooler and probably be ok, but I suggest you drop a full 2 ranges to keep things a little safer. With these cars it is best to not get greedy.

Posted by: Brock

"NGK Iridium IX plugs"

They are already in and one heat range colder. I'll let you know the results of the three dyno runs which will be done with the SCT Xcal3 nitrous custom tune installed by Torrie. Thanks.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

"NGK Iridium IX plugs"

They are already in and one heat range colder. I'll let you know the results of the three dyno runs which will be done with the SCT Xcal3 nitrous custom tune installed by Torrie. Thanks.

Do what you want. Like I said, you will probably be just fine, but it will not be as safe for your engine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

You will go through more plug changes with the coppers but run a higher chance of detonation.

Just for clarification, I meant that the coppers will require more changes but you run a higher chance of detonation with the NGK iri's.

You are doing a dry nitrous system on your LS? You are not going to enjoy having to swap tunes for the nitrous constantly. That is one of the bigger reasons why I went with wet on the LS was due to the time it takes to swap tunes in these vehicles. I hope you are doing something with your fuel system, namely the injectors, to ensure proper fueling. Torrie can increase your delta fuel pressure to make your injectors act bigger but then it will in turn put allot more strain on your fuel pump, which will already be at a somewhat higher duty cycle with supplying enough fuel for the 100 shot alone.

Posted by: cammerfe

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILLS

Do what you want. Like I said, you will probably be just fine, but it will not be as safe for your engine.

Just for clarification, I meant that the coppers will require more changes but you run a higher chance of detonation with the NGK iri's.

You are doing a dry nitrous system on your LS? You are not going to enjoy having to swap tunes for the nitrous constantly. That is one of the bigger reasons why I went with wet on the LS was due to the time it takes to swap tunes in these vehicles. I hope you are doing something with your fuel system, namely the injectors, to ensure proper fueling. Torrie can increase your delta fuel pressure to make your injectors act bigger but then it will in turn put allot more strain on your fuel pump, which will already be at a somewhat higher duty cycle with supplying enough fuel for the 100 shot alone.

My new engine will be running a set of MSD prototype coils developed for the four-cam Mustang. I surely agree with 2 ranges and copper. I am NOT a fan of Champion. Does anyone know of another source?

KenS from Ben's Place

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammerfe

What is your reasoning why you are not a fan of Champion? I am not neccessarily trying to defend anything here, but I am curious as to your reasoning. I have encountered others that said that but when asked why in particular they could not come up with anything other than "I heard they suck" or "they just make your car run like crap"...

In my personal experience I have been using them for 1.5 years and they have performed flawlessly.

Posted by: cammerfe

Back in the mid '60s I was part of a consortium running a Ford Fairlane Thunderbolt. Since it was a factory racer, we had support from a wide variety of sources. The 427 High Riser was very hard on plugs. We had to change Champions after every 1/4 mile pass. Since we were given plugs by the case, there was NO expense involved. However, the work necessary by DST to put the engine in made it very difficult to reach the plugs and I still have faint burn scars from coming in contact with the headers, even after all these years.

Autolite plugs would last for several runs---often a whole day's racing---before needing changing. I lost all fondness for Champions from this experience.

KenS from Ben's Place

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammerfe

Back in the mid '60s I was part of a consortium running a Ford Fairlane Thunderbolt. Since it was a factory racer, we had support from a wide variety of sources. The 427 High Riser was very hard on plugs. We had to change Champions after every 1/4 mile pass. Since we were given plugs by the case, there was NO expense involved. However, the work necessary by DST to put the engine in made it very difficult to reach the plugs and I still have faint burn scars from coming in contact with the headers, even after all these years.

Autolite plugs would last for several runs---often a whole day's racing---before needing changing. I lost all fondness for Champions from this experience.

KenS from Ben's Place

Ken, you do realize that you are making a statement in present day based upon findings you made roughly 40 years ago. Though your perspective is understandable due to your past experiences it is just a little outdated.

Anyone who is in touch with things in the performance world knows that it has taken much less than 40 years to see the rise of a great product with a company under the correct supervision. Then fast forward only to see that same "great product's" demise a few years later due to various problems with the company and its leadership. What I mean by this is that opinions on manufacturers have a shelf life and it probably isn't 40 years. That shelf life is dependent on what the future holds for each and every one of those companies. Heck, look at VT Engines they are a PERFECT example! For those who do not know, VT Engines was THE PREMIERE modular engine builder in the country for the past few years bar none. There are some other real good ones too but none really could compare to VT. Their product and services offered was top notch and their costs did reflect that. As of earlier this year there was a restructure in the company and new ownership came in. In a short time that company, and its new sister company, went to the dogs and their product and all its quality went with it. That immense change took less than a year to happen. You take time to blink in this business and things will surely pass you by.

Posted by: cammerfe

My prejudices are just that---prejudices. It wouldn't, of course, be fair to say that there's been no improvement in plugs in the last forty years. On one hand, I was using triple-ground-electrode Auburn plugs in my '34 five-window with '53 flathead back in 1959. On the other hand, the advances in plug design and construction are the features usually listed as undesirable in boosted engines. Hence my question.

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammerfe

On the other hand, the advances in plug design and construction are the features usually listed as undesirable in boosted engines. Hence my question.

I would hope that some advances in quality control would have taken place in that timeframe as well.

Posted by: thethirdeye88

how in the world did your power curve make a loop...seriously, someone explain this...there is a loop in the dyno graph...wtf?...boggled...

Posted by: ILLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by thethirdeye88

how in the world did your power curve make a loop...seriously, someone explain this...there is a loop in the dyno graph...wtf?...boggled...

Refer to post #10.