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Superman no longer a patriot?

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Posted by: Calabrio

June 30, 2006
Superman eschews longtime patriot act

By Tatiana Siegel

Nevermind Superman's sexual orientation. Here's another identity-related question that is likely to spark controversy as the Man of Steel soars into theaters nationwide this Fourth of July weekend in Warner Bros. Pictures' "Superman Returns": Is Superman still American?

Ever since artist Joe Shuster and writer Jerry Siegel created the granddaddy of all comic book icons in 1932, Superman has fought valiantly to preserve "truth, justice and the American way." Whether kicking Nazi ass on the radio in the '40s or wrapping himself in the Stars and Stripes on TV during the Cold War or even rescuing the White House's flag as his final feat in "Superman II," the Krypton-born, Smallville-raised Ubermensch always has been steeped in unmistakable U.S. symbolism.

But in the latest film incarnation, scribes Michael Dougherty and Dan Harris sought to downplay Superman's long-standing patriot act. With one brief line uttered by actor Frank Langella, the caped superhero's mission transformed from "truth, justice and the American way" to "truth, justice and all that stuff."

"The world has changed. The world is a different place," Pennsylvania native Harris says. "The truth is he's an alien. He was sent from another planet. He has landed on the planet Earth, and he is here for everybody. He's an international superhero."

In fact, Dougherty and Harris never even considered including "the American way" in their screenplay. After the wunderkind writing duo ("X2: X-Men United") conceived "Superman's" story with director Bryan Singer during a Hawaiian vacation, they penned their first draft together and intentionally omitted what they considered to be a loaded and antiquated expression. That decision stood throughout the 140-day shoot in Australia, where the pair remained on-set to provide revisions and tweaks.

"We were always hesitant to include the term 'American way' because the meaning of that today is somewhat uncertain," Ohio native Dougherty explains. "The ideal hasn't changed. I think when people say 'American way,' they're actually talking about what the 'American way' meant back in the '40s and '50s, which was something more noble and idealistic."

While audiences in Dubuque might bristle at Superman's newfound global agenda, patrons in Dubai likely will find the DC Comics protagonist more palatable. And with the increasing importance of the overseas boxoffice -- as evidenced by summer tentpoles like "The Da Vinci Code" -- foreign sensibilities can no longer be ignored.

"So, you play the movie in a foreign country, and you say, 'What does he stand for? -- truth, justice and the American way.' I think a lot of people's opinions of what the American way means outside of this country are different from what the line actually means (in Superman lore) because they are not the same anymore," Harris says. "And (using that line) would taint the meaning of what he is saying."

But for Superman purists looking for a nod to the big blue Boy Scout's nationalistic loyalties, he is still saving Americans, albeit many with suspiciously Aussie accents. He foils Lex Luthor's nefarious plan to send millions from the nation's heartland to a watery death. And in his most impressive scene, the hero saves the day while a plane hurtles toward a baseball stadium full of fans enjoying America's pastime. Although there is no indication that it is an American baseball game depicted, the scene was one of the few shot on U.S. soil, at Dodger Stadium.

Nevertheless, the long-standing member of the Justice League of America seems to have traded in his allegiance to the flag for an international passport.

"He's here for humanity," Dougherty says.

Posted by: biglou71

Four Letters can describe that whole article.

PC BS

Posted by: Calabrio

Quote:

Originally Posted by biglou71

Four Letters can describe that whole article.

PC BS

I think it goes a little farther than that. It's not just that they don't want to make people feel bad, there is a recognized contempt for "America."

Now would be a great time for Hollywood to suddenly become patriotic and start using their immense international power to start projecting America's image favorably, instead of constantly engaging in the pile on.

The Superman movie will be seen by millions all over the world. If Hollywood loved America, like they did in the 30s and 40s, they would use the opportunity to strengthen our country. In this case, they are distancing themself from it.

In the Superman myth, Superman embodied all that was good, classic midwestern values, because of his parents. He was raised to be Superman.

Now he's a citizen of the world with an out-of-wedlock kid.

Posted by: fossten

There's a backlash, though. Hollywood's elitist, anti-America attitude is reflecting on their incomes. Americans are slowly becoming disenchanted with these losers.

I guess they need to go overseas in order to sell a movie anymore, so they can't act TOO American.

Posted by: TheDude

Doe's he still fly around and save people? Yes
Doe's he still have a strong moral core that any decent person can agree with? Yes
Does he look basically the same as he did before? Yes

So what's the problem? If you want to nit pick every little thing then complain about him being an illegal undocumented alien. Amazing, you conservatives cry that the liberals bitch and moan about everything. Now you're complaining about a comic book hero?

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

Doe's he still fly around and save people? Yes
Doe's he still have a strong moral core that any decent person can agree with? Yes
Does he look basically the same as he did before? Yes

So what's the problem? If you want to nit pick every little thing then complain about him being an illegal undocumented alien. Amazing, you conservatives cry that the liberals bitch and moan about everything. Now you're complaining about a comic book hero?

And you still think he's real. So what does that make you?

Posted by: Calabrio

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

What is your point? I never implied that he didn't fly, save people, or wear tights. Did you read the article? Do you know what I'm even addressing?

Quote:

If you want to nit pick every little thing then complain about him being an illegal undocumented alien. Amazing, you conservatives cry that the liberals bitch and moan about everything. Now you're complaining about a comic book hero?

Again, do us a favor and NOT just knee-jerk react to everything, especially before you have the context in place. You're response indicates you failed to read either the original post or my other response.

The film makers made a conscious decision to do away with the "truth,justice, and the American way" element of the story.

I'm not complaining about a "superhero" I'm addressing Hollywood and how it hates America. I'm addressing how a wonderful opportunity to strengthen the image of our great country has been lost because of a bunch of liberal film makers with contempt for the country.

"We were always hesitant to include the term 'American way' because the meaning of that today is somewhat uncertain....' I think a lot of people's opinions of what the American way means outside of this country are different from what the line actually means (in Superman lore) because they are not the same anymore," Harris says. "And (using that line) would taint the meaning of what he is saying."

And I say this would have been another opportunity to reinforce the great values that American's uphold. But Hollywood thinks differently of the U.S. and when they produce propoganda, it's never to strengthen this country.

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

And you still think he's real. So what does that make you?

Since you're acting like a child, I'll reply to you like a child....

'I know you are, but what am I!'

Gee, that makes for intelligent debate.

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

What is your point? I never implied that he didn't fly, save people, or wear tights. Did you read the article? Do you know what I'm even addressing?

Again, do us a favor and NOT just knee-jerk react to everything, especially before you have the context in place. You're response indicates you failed to read either the original post or my other response.

The film makers made a conscious decision to do away with the "truth,justice, and the American way" element of the story.

I'm not complaining about a "superhero" I'm addressing Hollywood and how it hates America. I'm addressing how a wonderful opportunity to strengthen the image of our great country has been lost because of a bunch of liberal film makers with contempt for the country.

"We were always hesitant to include the term 'American way' because the meaning of that today is somewhat uncertain....' I think a lot of people's opinions of what the American way means outside of this country are different from what the line actually means (in Superman lore) because they are not the same anymore," Harris says. "And (using that line) would taint the meaning of what he is saying."

And I say this would have been another opportunity to reinforce the great values that American's uphold. But Hollywood thinks differently of the U.S. and when they produce propoganda, it's never to strengthen this country.

I watched the movie; he's still the same Superman as before. They did reference him being raised in Kansas and as before, he has all the good morals he learned from his simple farm life upbringing. Sure it's a little bit different, but not enough to grip over.

Also, the one reason they changed his catch phrase was to sell more tickets. $$$

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

I see a pattern in your posts. Nothing bothers you. A nuke could devastate one of our cities and you'd be like, "Well, it's nothing to get upset about. I don't live there."

I've heard about apathetic types like you. They play the middle of the road game, waiting to see which side is right and then joining the majority. These people are known as pragmatists, and they are useless. People like that need to just get out of the way and let those serious about keeping our country safe do their job.

If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

Posted by: Calabrio

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

It is enough to gripe over. What's your threshold?

Do you not see an opportunity to reinforce the POSITIVE image of the country through the cinema? Hollywood was well aware of this power in the 30s and 40s. And they've been actively engaging in HURTING the image of this country through the movie images certainly since the 60s.

And do you not recognize the tone and attitude the filmmakers had and reinforced when making the decision they did?

Quote:

Also, the one reason they changed his catch phrase was to sell more tickets. $$$

This argument isn't true. If Hollywood's sole motivation was making money, they'd produce more G and PG rated movies. Statistically speakings, it is the family movies that are typically the highest grossing films, not Brokeback Mountain.

And I must have missed the comic book where Superman knocked up Lois Lane, zonked her memory, then ran off for five years... perhaps I missed that story line when I was a kid?

Culture, traditions, value, and norms aren't simply inherited. They are the result of being taught and repetition. Movies and media are the most powerful and invasive form of training out there. Subtle things, done frequently enough, will reshape the culture.

If these subtle things are positive, the help. When they are negative, they can destory the culture.

But my original point was that another opportunity to use a uniquely American superhero to reinforce the positive ideals of the U.S. has been lost due to the contempt of Hollywood elitist liberals.

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

This post is about a comic book movie right? So ya, I'm not bothered by a few small simple changes considering we're discussing a comic book hero. I watched the movie, have you? Superman is still Superman with his base moral 'American' core.

The rest of what you said is just more of your typical mean spirited, holier than thou chest thumping. But hey, it's a free country and I'm not a moderator so keep on thumping.

One thing though, considering how many personal and ad hominum attacks you've laid against me for the simple reason that I have a 180* opinion to yours on most subjects I don't play the middle of the road.

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

It is enough to gripe over. What's your threshold?

If they had made him a gay space pirate when a penchant for young boys, I'd be pissed and asking for blood. But as I watched the movie and didn't see all that much of a difference, I'm not gripping. I'd be happy to mail you the price of a ticket to watch the movie, if you do see Superman as not being 'American' anymore, you don't have to send me a refund.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

Do you not see an opportunity to reinforce the POSITIVE image of the country through the cinema? Hollywood was well aware of this power in the 30s and 40s. And they've been actively engaging in HURTING the image of this country through the movie images certainly since the 60s.

And do you not recognize the tone and attitude the filmmakers had and reinforced when making the decision they did?

Cinema/Propoganda is a very useful and effective tool, Hitler proved it. But I do not agree that this movie is hurting America. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't see it during my viewing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

Money isn't Hollywoods sole motivation but it's the BIGGEST one. Actually, considering what it cost to produce Broke Back Mountain, it had a very favorable return and I wouldn't want my only options when selecting a movie to be 'G' or 'PG', diversity is a good thing. Having said the above, politics do play a roll in some movies, that is true. Consider 'Flight 77' or any Michael Moore film, do you think that was made because it would make X amount of dollars?

If you watch the movie, you'd see the Superman-Louis child thing isn't what you think it is. 1) He didn't know she was pregnant, it was a one time thing 2) He didn't run off to specifically leave her or his child 3) Zonked her memory? Not sure mind wiping was in the movie.

Like I said, if I honestly felt they changed Superman enough to not be the traditional Superman we all know, I'd be pissed along with you. All I can say is watch the movie and then galvanize your opinion if you feel so strongly about it.

And above all else, I appreciate your non ad hominem replies, it's a pleasure to debate with you.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

Once again, nothing gets under your skin. Totally apathetic. You continue to show the pattern. No patriotism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

Cinema/Propoganda is a very useful and effective tool, Hitler proved it. But I do not agree that this movie is hurting America. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't see it during my viewing.

You are some piece of work. You equate promoting a positive image of America to Hitler? You must think America is equivalent to 1938 Germany. You seem to be comparing Bush to Hitler. Is that what you think? No wonder it's so obvious that you hate this country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

You obviously didn't see 'Flight 77', because it's actually called 'Flight 93.' But Michael Moore didn't pledge a large portion of the movie's proceeds to the victims of 9/11, like the producers of '93' did. The movie made him rich, just like 'Bowling for Columbine' did, period. Not to mention the fact that 'Flight 93' told of actual events, whereas Moore's movie was a big phony. What a joke, you comparing those two. Talk about propaganda.

Posted by: Calabrio

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

Quote:

Cinema/Propoganda is a very useful and effective tool, Hitler proved it. But I do not agree that this movie is hurting America. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't see it during my viewing.

Agreed. But my point wasn't that the film is directly hurting America. I think the bastard baby subplot might be a little bit of a problem, but I haven't see the film yet so I don't know. But my gripe is with the mindset of the film makers and their conscious decision to omit the "Americanism" element of the character.

Not including it doesn't hurt the country, but they should have included it.

Quote:

Like I said, if I honestly felt they changed Superman enough to not be the traditional Superman we all know, I'd be pissed along with you. All I can say is watch the movie and then galvanize your opinion if you feel so strongly about it.

As mentioned before, I'm not opposed to the movie- I'm upset with the film makers and the trend in Hollywood. Superman is the comic character that would routinely beat the crap out of Tojo and Hitler on the cover of it's comic books. He was raised by a loving set of farmers in a small midwestern town, and he was RAISED to be Superman. He wasn't born to be Superman. I think that human element of the story is crucial to making the story work. Superman represents traditional American values. And, the filmmakers disregarded the opportunity to make a 2 1/2 hr long movie reinforcing our country. And they didn't, not because of issues of money, but I'm convinced it was because of their own biases.

Quote:

...it's a pleasure to debate with you.

Thanks.

Indulge me this- let's say a baby with super powers lands on earth. Instead of landing in the a home with traditional American values, like the Kent family, lets say that child landing in:

Tehran, Iran.
Paris, France.
Bejing, China.
Name your own location and think how different it would be.

How different would that story be?

Posted by: rmac694203

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

I think you are the piece of work. He simply makes the point that cinema can be a powerful and persuasive tool, and you take it literally and turn it into him comparing the USA to Nazi Germany. Talk about a slippery slope. He talks about Hitler using the power of cinema, so he must think Bush is like Hitler, so he must think America is like Nazi Germany, etc. etc. Dude chill out.

Posted by: rmac694203

And I have seen the new Superman movie and thought it was pretty good. I haven't seen the old movies so I didn't even notice the lack of 'American Way' or whatever. To me it doesn't really matter. Does it matter that Superman literally saves America from a man who is pretty much a terrorist (Lex)? No, because he doesn't specifically tell you that he loves America. Come on.

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

Truth is, I'll probably see this movie over the weekend. It's in IMAX, it's in 3D, and it's Superman.... I'm actually one of the under 35 crowd that really does think Superman is a great comic book character. I don't watch much TV, but I did see that Smalltown show a couple weeks ago.

I thought it was great how that show does emphasize the role of the Kent family in Clark's life. The father (Bo Duke) and the mother (Lana Lane from Superman 3) do a great job.

Agreed. But my point wasn't that the film is directly hurting America. I think the bastard baby subplot might be a little bit of a problem, but I haven't see the film yet so I don't know. But my gripe is with the mindset of the film makers and their conscious decision to omit the "Americanism" element of the character.

Not including it doesn't hurt the country, but they should have included it.

As mentioned before, I'm not opposed to the movie- I'm upset with the film makers and the trend in Hollywood. Superman is the comic character that would routinely beat the crap out of Tojo and Hitler on the cover of it's comic books. He was raised by a loving set of farmers in a small midwestern town, and he was RAISED to be Superman. He wasn't born to be Superman. I think that human element of the story is crucial to making the story work. Superman represents traditional American values. And, the filmmakers disregarded the opportunity to make a 2 1/2 hr long movie reinforcing our country. And they didn't, not because of issues of money, but I'm convinced it was because of their own biases.

Thanks.

Indulge me this- let's say a baby with super powers lands on earth. Instead of landing in the a home with traditional American values, like the Kent family, lets say that child landing in:

Tehran, Iran.
Paris, France.
Bejing, China.
Name your own location and think how different it would be.

How different would that story be?

Excellent, watch the movie then come back and tell me if you still have your same opinions...

And as far as your hypothetical scenario, it's already been done; there is a graphic novel named 'Red Son' in which baby Supe's lands in Stalin Russia and is raised with a communist unbringing. But if any country like the current N. Korea, Iraq, Iran were to have at it's disposal a 'weapon' like Superman, we'd all be living under an iron thumb.

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

Once again, nothing gets under your skin. Totally apathetic. You continue to show the pattern. No patriotism..

I can only assume that your chronic knee-jerking has reached a point were it affects your reading. I gave a direct example of what would get under my skin and I explained why this comic book movie did not as I have watched it. Have you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

JERK-JERKING reaching critical mass... Sadly enough, I have to ask you to go re-read what I said, NO ONE in their right mind and possessing the most rudimentary of reading comprehension skills would think I said anything even remotely close to what you accuse me. Let me spell it out for you though, Calabrio mentioned the power of Cinema/Propoganda as a political tool, I agreed and gave him an example of why I agreed; Hitler used Cinema/Propaganda to further his cause and he did it with extreme efficiency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

1) I didn't see Flight 93 (excuse the numerical mistake, don't take it personal), but as it's been on my net-flix queue since it opened up in theatres I do plan on watching it.
2) Yes, Michael Moore does make movies to make him rich, I agree, but pretaining to the topic that was at question, he makes them as a political statement also.
3) I am aware that Flight 93 retold actual events, but regardless it was politically driven.
4) They are comparable in the sense they both have politics behind them.

If you keep up the knee-jerking you'll end up shattering a kneecap.

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmac694203

Thank you... But forgive him, he knows not what he does nor can he help it.

Posted by: JohnnyBz00LS

This is an amusing thread..........

GOD BLESS AMERICA, AND NOWHERE ELSE!!

Posted by: Calabrio

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS

This is an amusing thread..........

GOD BLESS AMERICA, AND NOWHERE ELSE!!

What a thoughtless and worthless contribution. What motivates you to post and is there any way we can eliminate it?

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

What a thoughtless and worthless contribution. What motivates you to post and is there any way we can eliminate it?

If you consider the article and what others have posted following it, Johnny does have a point. The article stipulates that Superman is here to 'save' or 'fight for the rights' of everyone and every nation and the outcry to a degree has been, that he is not the traditional "Truth, justice and the American way of life" Superman anymore. Correct?

BTW, did you ever end up watching the movie and if so, did it change your viewpoint of it?

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

What a thoughtless and worthless contribution. What motivates you to post and is there any way we can eliminate it?

Actually, I thought his sarcastic comment very clearly illustrated his loathing for this country.

I wonder which country Johnny thinks is a better place to live. Anybody wanna take up a collection for a one-way plane ticket?

Posted by: Calabrio

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

Yes, I saw the movie last weekend.
No, it didn't change my mind. I was very disappointed by the film. I thought the direction and performances were excellent. The visuals were amazing. And, since I like the characters, I didn't mind the length of the film.

However, the movie solidified my complaints about the film.

Pa Kent is dead. Ma Kent is a bizarre afterthought.
We have the outstanding dead-beat Dad issue which I think will really do substantial damage to the franchise, which I'll refrain from explaining. Actually, I'm really troubled by the shacked up Lois, and the fatherless child aspect of the film.

And Johnny's comment was idiotic and pointless. The character is a product of America. He has traditionally been a citizen of the U.S., the product of American values. That wouldn't mean he'd be an isolationist, but that does mean he'd rally around the flag.

Posted by: JohnnyBz00LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

What a thoughtless and worthless contribution. What motivates you to post and is there any way we can eliminate it?

I take it you've never seen the movie "Head of State".

The character that uses that phrase reminds me of you and fossten.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

Yes, yes, lets "cleanse" this country of all the free-thinkers so all you'll have left is your little communistic, authoritarian dictatorship all to your self.

Posted by: Calabrio

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS

I take it you've never seen the movie "Head of State".

The character that uses that phrase reminds me of you and fossten.

No, I haven't seen that movie. But if you mean I consider myself an American, before I consider myself a "citizen of the world", you would be correct.

Posted by: MrWilson

Its all about the $...they want more money...they know there is a fanbase in america that will without a doubt see the movie, but in foreigh countries there is probabily not the same fanbase, and they dont want to alienate the foreigners. I think its not pc bs, its corperate bs.

Posted by: JohnnyBz00LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

No, I haven't seen that movie. But if you mean I consider myself an American, before I consider myself a "citizen of the world", you would be correct.

Nope, that's not what I mean. You are reading way too much into the phrase.

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS

Nope, that's not what I mean. You are reading way too much into the phrase.

"I have been the Vice President for 8 years. I am a war veteran. And I'm the cousin of Sharon Stone. God bless America...and no place else."