
The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.
The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.
The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.
The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas — the bible of fonts — does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters.
The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers. |
Originally Posted by barry2952
That article is just wrong. Superscript was available on typewriters of that era. I'm not saying one way or another whether the documents are real or not. I would suggest a closer examination of the other memos written by his superior to determine if Superscript was used. I believe you are blindly coming to the President's defense on this issue. I believe that the President's service record is a legitimate election issue.
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Originally Posted by barry2952
That article is just wrong. Superscript was available on typewriters of that era. I'm not saying one way or another whether the documents are real or not. I would suggest a closer examination of the other memos written by his superior to determine if Superscript was used. I believe you are blindly coming to the President's defense on this issue. I believe that the President's service record is a legitimate election issue.
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
Man, Oh, Man, Oh Man. When will the madness stop.
CBS News is a fraud, Kerry is a fraud. I think that the 40% of the Country that supports Kerry are in denial and proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that people on the left will vote for anybody with a (D) next to their name, and will ignore everything else. Tough language for sure, but I am tired of all the press coverage on Bush's service. He has been the President for 4 years now. We can all judge his fitness to serve based on this record. Kerry, on the otherhand, has not served yet and should be scrutinized way more intensely. More than half a dozen document experts contacted by ABC News said they had doubts about the memos' authenticity. "These documents do not appear to have been the result of technology that was available in 1972 and 1973," said Bill Flynn, one of country's top authorities on document authentication. "The cumulative evidence that's available … indicates that these documents were produced on a computer, not a typewriter:" Among the points Flynn and other experts noted: The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard. The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters. The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters. The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas — the bible of fonts — does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters. The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Burn, Kerry, Burn. Everybody knows the Democrats were behind this deception to destroy the good name of one of our Country's greatest Presidents. |
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Originally Posted by barry2952
I believe you are blindly coming to the President's defense on this issue.
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Originally Posted by Kbob
My definition of a "blind" defense is saying something like "I don't believe it!" without citing or posting any supporting evidence. I'm not saying that there aren't blind supporters of Bush or Kerry out there.
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
I don't have a problem. I back up everything I say with facts. I see very clearly. No blind spots on this guy.
Too bad I am going to have to waste another night watching all this craziness. It is going to be fun watching the Kerry supporters and Dems squirm. |
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Originally Posted by Joeychgo
Boys............ Play nice........
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a little
and a little
to make a guys day.
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
Joey, things are cool. I'm having a blast. How 'bout you guys?
Nothing like a little a little and a little to make a guys day. ![]() |
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Originally Posted by Joeychgo
Agreed - just reminding people - we are all friends here - even if I have to come to your houses with the LVC Mafia.
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Originally Posted by Joeychgo
Agreed - just reminding people - we are all friends here - even if I have to come to your houses with the LVC Mafia.
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Originally Posted by Kbob
If you come by my house, bring one un-named Lincoln owner from California with you. I'd love to teach him the consequences of unjustly calling someone a liar.
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Originally Posted by Lincolnman
Gee!!! Did I unjustly call you a liar? I am truly sorry if I did.
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Originally Posted by Kbob
Accepted.
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
Sensitive, yes. Necessary, yes. We need to be able to see and hear ALL sides of an issue to make an informed decision. I argue my points as passionately as I can without offending (hopefully) so that others may somehow benefit and the dialogue will be opened to more people, (which is a very good thing). There is nothing I despise more than an un-informed, under-informed voter. Peace.
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when I hear it. Peace
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
And you sure like raising the 'ol flagpole. LOL.
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Originally Posted by RRocket
--And most important, thus far, the White House has NOT discredited the documents are being false. Can you show me the official rebutal from the White House, please?
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
Almost forgot. Why would the White House say anything. They are too busy laughing their asses off to bother. This is another 3 point bump for them. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. Why engage? Let the Dems and the MSM wiggle and squirm. Can't wait for the Sunday shows and then Dan RatherNot at 6:30 EST on Monday.
This is getting way better than Clinton. Speaking of Clinton, Vince Foster's suicide note was proven to be a forgery. No surprise there bubba. Ooops, gotta run, but this was the best explaination I have ever seen as posted by CBS. That they used handwriting analysts to review the documents. Handwriting analysts for typewritten documents. COME ON. THIS IS HYSTERICAL. YOU HAVE TO ADMIT! |
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Originally Posted by RRocket
Brian, Well I'm not overly impressed that you could duplicate ANY document on a PC. The fact that you can use a modern PC to replicate a document supposedly made 30 years ago makes me yawn.
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Originally Posted by RRocket
On a different note, are you Americans getting tired that neither candidate has REALLY said what they are going to do to make America a better place?? All they have been doing is throwing darts at each other. Bush gave his speech that Republicans have been giving for decades (lower taxes, balanced budget, line item veto powers, etc..). I don't think America has become a "better" place since Bush stepped in, and I don't see what he's going to do to improve it. I also haven't heard anything interesting from Kerry with regards to America's future. Are Americans as a whole getting tired of the lack of REAL campaigning on either side?
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Originally Posted by Punisher
In a separate development, the Boston Globe this week reported that Mr. Bush promised to sign up with a Boston-area unit when he left his Texas unit in 1973 to attend Harvard Business School. Mr. Bush never signed up with a Boston unit.
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Originally Posted by Punisher
Bush supporters seem to think as long as he is in office and doin pre emptive strikes on other countries we are goin to be safe. Gee im sure we arent pissing anyone off by doin it lol.... Maybe making more people want to join terrorists.
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
No, that is not it. We just feel it is better and safer to control our own destiny and we have a moral obligation to be the policemen of the world.
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Originally Posted by Lincolnman
How can we be policemen of the world when we cannot police our country. Look at all the crime that needs attention inour own country. And if we are going to be policemen of the world, why are we just policing oil producing countries. Why aren't we stopping the injustices thats done to people in Africa and other places. What a hypocrite!
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Originally Posted by Lincolnman
How can we be policemen of the world when we cannot police our country. Look at all the crime that needs attention inour own country. And if we are going to be policemen of the world, why are we just policing oil producing countries. Why aren't we stopping the injustices thats done to people in Africa and other places. What a hypocrite!
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Originally Posted by RRocket
Whilst in office, what exactly has Bush done to "get rid of drugs" and change public schools?
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Originally Posted by RRocket
Oil? So you think it's a neccessary evil to invade countries on a lie, and put men and women's lives in danger, just so you can have oil?
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Originally Posted by RRocket
The US has done NOTHING to curb the genocide in Africa. NOTHING. Mailing over a few bags of spoiled wheat won't do much there...of course if they had vast oil stores, something might happen...
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And what's happening in Sudan is being addressed by the administration. It's still in the early stages.|
Originally Posted by RRocket
And yes, the US can't even win the wars at home. So far, you are losing the War on Drugs, the War on Poverty, the War on Illiteracy, etc....
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Originally Posted by RRocket
What exactly has Bush said he'd do to fix those things? He hasn't said anything about it, so I don't know why you're so optimistic....
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Originally Posted by RRocket
Kbob,
Somalia? I'm not sure how to interpret your answer. You did go to Somalia, you didn't stop the carnage. And after the "Black Hawk Down" fiasco, you packed up and left. I'm not sure about your answer. |
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
??? Have we put to bed the issue that the CBS documents that Dan Rather used to beschmirch President Bush were indeed fakes.
If you would like to see some proof, here you go.... http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...uments-_Forged [ 9/9/2004: Bush Guard Documents: Forged I opened Microsoft Word, set the font to Microsoft’s Times New Roman, tabbed over to the default tab stop to enter the date “18 August 1973,” then typed the rest of the document purportedly from the personal records of the late Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian. And my Microsoft Word version, typed in 2004, is an exact match for the documents trumpeted by CBS News as “authentic.” A screenshot of the “original” document as found at CBS: ![]() __________ A screenshot of my Microsoft Word document: ![]() __________ The spacing is not just similar—it is identical in every respect. Notice that the date lines up perfectly, all the line breaks are in the same places, all letters line up with the same letters above and below, and the kerning is exactly the same. And I did not change a single thing from Word’s defaults; margins, type size, tab stops, etc. are all using the default settings. The one difference (the “th” in “187th” is slightly lower) is probably due to a slight difference between the Mac and PC versions of the Times New Roman font, or it could be an artifact of whatever process was used to artificially “age” the document. (Update: I printed the document and the “th” matches perfectly in the printed version. It’s a difference between screen and printer fonts.) There is absolutely no way that this document was typed on any machine that was available in 1973. ] |
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
Who cares? It is not like he went in front of the Unites States Congress and committed an act of treason like Kerry did, casuing the loss of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people.
How come all the lefty sympathizers don't sympathize with that fact? |
All Kerry did was tell the TRUTH so that Congress would be aware of what was ACTUALLY going on in the jungle. All this BS about treason is yet ANOTHER GOP-inspired, mis-applied word to slander Kerry. He DID NOT COMMIT TREASON (else he would've been court-marshalled, right?), what he DID was tell the TRUTH. What happened after that was some people's feelings got hurt ('cause they were busted) and they are now turning against him w/ all these lies.
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
No, that is not it. We just feel it is better and safer to control our own destiny and we have a moral obligation to be the policemen of the world.
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS
Who died and put the US in charge of running the world?? I suppose your next statement would've been....... "and we also have a moral obligation to shove our ways, our religion, our currency, our justice system down everyone else's throats too."
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS
THIS is what all this flap is over? Well, I'm not "forensics expert", and the self-proclaimed person who asserts that the above "evidence" is "proof" that this document was forged using MSWord is smoking some good stuff. These two examples are NOT identical and were NOT created using the same method.
PROOF: The "7" and "9" drops below the character line in the "original", not so in the "Word forgery". While very similar, it is not the exact same font set. PROOF: The bottom of the characters do not all fall on the same horizontal line in the "original", whereas they do on the "Word forgery". This proves that the "original" was created on a machine that does not posess the mechanical precision that a computer and laser printer do. In fact, it leads more credence to the IBM Selectric as they were not as precise in this regard as say a daisy-wheel printer/typewriter or a fixed-font typewriter. The claim that the superscrips did not exist prior to the advent of word processing equipment is yet another smokescreen thrown up by the GOP that remains in denial about the real GW. It was not uncommon to have font "balls" for the Selectric that contained "st", "nd", "rd" and "th" superscript characters. I've even seen fixed-font typewriters with those characters. THAT is the reason the height of the superscripts are different between the "original" and the "Word forgery". A typewriter creates those superscrips w/ a single strike whereas Word creates them by shrinking the font and raising it above the character line (which is probably adjustable as well). This "evidence" that these documents were forged would simply not stand up. Clearly these claims about the documents being forged is motivated by the GOP running block for GW so that he doesn't have to come forth and actually LIE by denying the allegations. I'm glad CBS is sticking to its guns on this one. |
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
• Next, Dr. Bouffard began entering individual characters in an attempt to match them to the remaining fonts that were available on proportional spacing typewriters of that era, focusing on numbers. Thus far, one character stood out, the number “4.” In the document provided by CBS News, the number 4 does not "have a foot" and has a “closed top,” which is indicative of Times New Roman, a font exclusive to more modern computer word processing programs. Other characters matched the old proportional spacing fonts (available on only a small few typewriters of the era), but this number did not (please note that this is only an initial analysis with numerical characters).
I still have two other forensic document examiners that are examining the pdf file, and I will update if/when they get back to me. I also plan to ask Dr. Bouffard more detail about the nature of the "th" on the end of dates, though in our first conversation he indicated that some typewriters had the capability to do something in that format. * Regarding the small "th" after the date, Dr. Bouffard told me that it was possible to order specialty keys that would duplicate the automatic miniaturization completed by word processors after a numerical date, but it was certainly not standard, and wouldn't make a lot of sense in a military setting. "That by itself, while suspicious, is not impossible, but in conjunction with the (font irregularity of the) number four, it is really significant," he said. |
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS
Funny, I see no "4", nor any "th" following any date in the "evidence" you have given. This "expert" is obviously looking at a different document altogether. Your argument holds no water.
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
Here they are. Plenty of 4's for you to peruse at your leisure.
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/...sh_service.pdf |
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS
Until then, this whole issue makes him look suspicious.
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS
I'd much rather hear GW either confirm or deny the claims. While he doesn't have much credibility with me, at least I'd respect the fact he responded to these allegations.
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Originally Posted by Kbob
Neither Bush nor the Republican party ever attacked Kerry on his service record............
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
What!!! Respond to what. Fabrications? Dreams? Nightmares? I can't beleive you expect him to even give it the time of day.
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS
This is no different than the SBVT issue. Initially Kerry refused to stoop DOWN to that level, but when cornered he defended himself. So far Bush remains aloof on this issue........... as well as many others...................
What's wrong GW? Shoe hurts when it's on the other foot? I can't wait to see the debates and watch GW squirm when he finally gets cornered on these issues. However, he'll probably have the debate questions rigged....... like he has any other encounter w/ the press. |
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS
This is no different than the SBVT issue. Initially Kerry refused to stoop DOWN to that level, but when cornered he defended himself.
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
Kerry hasn't answered 1, not even 1 Swift Boat claim. Over 250 decorated Vietnam Veterans, soldiers and officers put their lives on hold and their reputations on the line to come out and reveal Kerry for who he is. Over 60 of them signed sworn affidavits stipulating that Kerry is Unfit for Command. Do I believe the words all of these gentleman, or the word of one pathological liar and self-delusional waffler? Humm, tough choice.
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Originally Posted by Punisher
Yea like the swift boat guys have made no money from this lol.
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
Not a dime. John O'Neill, author of the book, has donated all proceeds to a war memorial fund.
O’Neill: Zero. I gave away every penny. My total royalty from this book has been given to a military charity. I think I prefer not to name the charity until they formally accept the donation. But I have given every penny away and I won’t accept a penny from this book. [On Monday, August 23, O’Neill identified the charity as the Navy & Marine Relief Fund.] |
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
I gave away every penny. My total royalty from this book has been given to a military charity. I think I prefer not to name the charity until they formally accept the donation. But I have given every penny away and I won’t accept a penny from this book. [On Monday, August 23, O’Neill identified the charity as the Navy & Marine Relief Fund.]
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Originally Posted by Punisher
Thats 1 person, out of what? you said 250? Come on now thats like saying no one in america smokes weed cause you know someone who doesnt!.
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS
Oh, I see. Well THAT explains your......, uh...... "strong convictions" against Kerry.
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Originally Posted by Punisher
Yea like the swift boat guys have made no money from this lol.
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Originally Posted by Punisher
Thats 1 person, out of what? you said 250? Come on now thats like saying no one in america smokes weed cause you know someone who doesnt!.
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS
WHAT? I guess Cheney is not a part of the Bush adm or the GOP?
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Originally Posted by Kbob
What is that supposed to mean? That doesn't make sense.
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Originally Posted by Kbob
To what are you referring to?
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS
My bad, I mis-read MonsterMark's post, I thought he was saying that he was giving HIS royalties away..... implying he had a hand in the publication of that pile of toilet paper....... which would explain.....blah blah blah ........ when in reality he was quoting the nincompoop who authored the pile of toilet paper...... who gave his royalties away.
The reality of this situation is, a money trail from this pile of toilet paper to the SBVs will never be found. Remember how proficient they are at hiding their trails. |
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Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS
I'm referring to this outright lie:
Did you not see the speeches at the RNC? You still think the SBVT have (or "had") no connections to the GOP? |
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Originally Posted by NJDooWopper
In all honesty, I couldnt care less about either of their service records during the Vietnam era. Both have marks against them. I care about the issues, the ones the right AND left wing media arent covering. Listen to NPR for facts with allmost no bias. Whew!
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Originally Posted by NJDooWopper
Listen to NPR for facts, with allmost no bias.
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Originally Posted by NJDooWopper
Listen to NPR for facts with allmost no bias. Whew!
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Originally Posted by Kbob
Ben Barnes is the best witness money can buy. He's so deep in the Democratic party and the Kerry camp that it's not even funny. He's a joke and he wouldn't have been in that 60 Minute piece if there wasn't something else to show that he wasn't a complete fool (the forged documents). So in the words of 60 Minutes striving to be fair, why aren't they doing a piece on the Swift Boat Vets? The answer is obvious, the unsubstantiated allegations of anyone, whether it be one (Barnes) or 250 (Swift Boat Vets), is (I repeat) meaningless and useless in valid reporting and all reputable media organizations and reporters know this.
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Wednesday, Sept. 22, 2004 See what the Dems do! Out of one side of their mouths they say they want to have a debate on the issues, all the while they are loading up on their character assassination strategies.
Many questions still remain. Was a crime committed? I believe so. Obviously, forgery is involved. But the Texas Legal Code also says it is a third-degree felony if one "makes, presents, or uses any record, document, or thing with knowledge of its falsity and with intent that it be taken as a genuine governmental record" or "makes, presents, or uses a governmental record with knowledge of its falsity."
Did the Kerry campaign know about the existence of the documents in question in advance of the CBS report? A chronology of events indicates they did.
Bill Burkett says he made multiple contacts with the Kerry campaign in August, sending an e-mail newsletter on August 21 saying he talked to Kerry campaign seniors on Friday, August 20. The Kerry campaign told him they wanted to "counterattack," and he says he "gave them the information to do it with."
'Down and Dirty'
Bill Burkett says he contacted the Democratic National Committee and laid out a rationale for using what he termed "down and dirty tactics against President Bush."
We know that the Kerry campaign devised a strategy to attack the president’s National Guard service that began the same night the Republican National Convention ended, with Senator Kerry attacking the president’s Guard service on the night of September 2.
Two days before the "60 Minutes" report aired, Howard Wolfson, a strategist dispatched to the DNC by the Kerry campaign, joined the DNC to head up "Operation Fortunate Son."
On Wednesday, September 8th, the day of the report, the DNC officially launched "Operation Fortunate Son" and "Texans For Truth," funded by a Kerry supporter, announced an advertising campaign.
Sen. Harkin, the 'Liar'
On Thursday, the day after the "60 Minutes" report, the DNC distributed an ad that had clearly been prepared in anticipation of the CBS News report, and cited the documents at a DNC press conference where Senator Tom Harkin called the president a "liar."
One might argue that these steps were taken without advance knowledge of the existence of the documents and this is all coincidence, but that strains credibility.
Mapes' 'Liberal Beliefs'
CBS has apologized for airing the story based on discredited documents, but has not issued a retraction. One of its producers contacted the Kerry campaign to encourage them to talk to one of her sources who could be helpful to the campaign. Whether this was done as part of an agreement with the source to go public or as a friendly tip, it is entirely inappropriate. Yet CBS News allows to continue in a news-gathering and reporting capacity a journalist who, according to yesterday’s Associated Press "makes no secret of her liberal beliefs" and has unquestionably provided opposition research to one of the presidential campaigns.
Sumner Redstone, Kerry's Money Man
This demonstrates a serious lack of judgment separate and apart from the lack of judgment demonstrated in running a report based on discredited documents. Did this producer’s own political viewpoint cloud her judgment? Is CBS News’ decision to neither suspend nor release the producer in question a result of judgment clouded by Viacom and CBS owner Sumner Redstone's role as a Kerry fund-raiser or Viacom President Tom Freston’s public support of John Kerry for president?
Other questions that should be answered:
<LI>1. We know that CBS put the Kerry campaign in touch with Burkett, but who put Burkett in touch with CBS in the first place? Was it someone at the Kerry campaign, or the DNC?
<LI>2. Who were the seniors other than [former] Senator Cleland that Burkett spoke to at the Kerry campaign on August 20? Lockhart wasn't a part of the Kerry campaign on August 20, and neither were McCurry, Begala, Carville or Greenberg.
So, who spoke with Burkett on August 20, and to whom did he provide the information for a "counterattack"?
<LI>3. Did the Kerry campaign or the DNC know about the documents before the CBS story broke? If so, from whom did they learn of them?
Another Question of 'Character'
The centerpiece of the Kerry campaign’s "character-based critique," Boston-speak for character assassination, is based on a discredited news report that was based on the criminal activity of someone who mocked up and forged documents. What’s that say for the character of the Kerry campaign? CBS should act now to assure its viewers that it understands the gravity of its producers’ actions, and the Kerry campaign and the DNC should answer these questions, abandon its character assassination campaign and focus on the issues relevant to the American people in this election.
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Originally Posted by MonsterMark
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...2/154637.shtml Wednesday, Sept. 22, 2004 Gillespie Implicates Kerry's Campaign in Document 'Crime' Just when you thought it couldn't get any hotter, CBS's latest scandal involving Democrat operatives Dan Rather and Mary Mapes grows even more sizzling. Here's what GOP chairman Ed Gillespie had to say today during a conference call, with subheads provided by us:
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