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Pages: 1

Another Shrub "Whoops!"

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)


Posted by: 97silverlsc

Bush Lets U.S. Spy on Callers Without Courts
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/po...rtner=homepage



Posted by: 97silverlsc

Senator Specter Calls for Hearings on U.S. Spy Program
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nati...-Bush-NSA.html





Posted by: MonsterMark

The New York Times. The United States version of Al-Jezeera. Wonderful.

The book comes out in 10 days. What a coincidence.

What will be accomplished and come from this. Let's see. We can't spy anymore and we can't torture if we do catch you.

Looks like we are giving the terrorists a free pass. Let them go ahead and destroy us and get it over with.

The NYT. A traitorist organization if I ever saw one.



Posted by: 97silverlsc

Report of NSA Spying Prompts Call for Probe
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051216/...wh/bush_nsa_11

That tune you keep playing over and over is getting awful tired, bryan.
Your boy screwed the pooch again and hopefully is going to get called on the carpet for it!



Posted by: MonsterMark

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110007692

BY JAMES TARANTO
Friday, December 16, 2005 12:20 p.m. EST

'Unilateral Disarmament'
President Bush has apparently capitulated on the "torture" issue, agreeing to accept, with only slight modifications, Sen. John McCain's amendment that would ban "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" of terrorists in U.S. custody. CNN quotes McCain: "I think that this will help us enormously in winning the war for the hearts and minds of people throughout the world in the war on terror."

This is fatuous. In September 1999 Norman Podhoretz wrote in The Wall Street Journal about an Israeli Supreme Court decision "to ban certain forms of interrogating suspected terrorists (like forceful shaking)":

It was only a matter of time before that court, being part of the same intellectual and political culture pervading the Israeli left as a whole (some have likened it to the Warren court), would enforce its point of view on the security services. . . . The Supreme Court's decision can be interpreted as a form of unilateral disarmament by Israel in the face of a still intransigent enemy.

More than six years later, one would be hard-pressed to produce evidence that the Israeli Supreme Court decision has helped the Jewish state win "hearts and minds." The Arab world still treats Israel as a pariah; Iran's ruler openly calls for its destruction; and the U.N. actively demonizes it, with at least the complicity of much of the free world. Inasmuch as Israel's position in international politics has improved, it is only because, since Sept. 11, the U.S. has become fully engaged in its own war against Islamist terrorists.

Podhoretz's phrase--"a form of unilateral disarmament . . . in the face of a still intransigent enemy"--is an apt description of the McCain amendment, which will certainly not prompt any reciprocal moves by terrorists to abjure tactics like beheading civilians or flying planes into buildings.

The McCain amendment, along with U.S. Supreme Court decisions in favor of terrorists' rights and the threatened Democratic filibuster of the Patriot Act's renewal, represents, in part, an overcompensation for the excesses of previous wars. In the past, the Supreme Court has upheld genuine outrages against civil liberties during wartime, such as restrictions on free speech during World War I (Schenck v. U.S.) and the internment of innocent Japanese-Americans during World War II (Korematsu v. U.S.)

But nothing remotely like these abuses has occurred during our current conflict. It seems that politicians and judges, like generals, have a tendency to fight the last war. One can only hope their efforts will not prove too damaging to American intelligence-gathering and terror-prevention efforts.



Posted by: MonsterMark

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/012571.php

Let's Send These Guys to Jail

The Valerie Plame case has established that any leak of classified information from an intelligence agency is a serious matter, regardless of how trivial the information may be, and must result in criminal investigation and prosecution. Fine. Here's another one that's not trivial, from today's New York Times:

Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.
Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years in an effort to track possible "dirty numbers" linked to Al Qaeda, the officials said. The agency, they said, still seeks warrants to monitor entirely domestic communications.


How does the Times know this? Because intelligence officials who are hostile to the Bush administration, and disagree with its policies, leaked the information:

Nearly a dozen current and former officials, who were granted anonymity because of the classified nature of the program, discussed it with reporters for The New York Times because of their concerns about the operation's legality and oversight.
The administration vigorously defends both the legality and the effectiveness of the policy:

The Bush administration views the operation as necessary so that the agency can move quickly to monitor communications that may disclose threats to the United States, the officials said. Defenders of the program say it has been a critical tool in helping disrupt terrorist plots and prevent attacks inside the United States.
Administration officials are confident that existing safeguards are sufficient to protect the privacy and civil liberties of Americans, the officials say. In some cases, they said, the Justice Department eventually seeks warrants if it wants to expand the eavesdropping to include communications confined within the United States. The officials said the administration had briefed Congressional leaders about the program and notified the judge in charge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the secret Washington court that deals with national security issues.


Not only that: the administration specifically asked the Times not to publish this article, on the ground that such publication would damage the country's security:

The White House asked The New York Times not to publish this article, arguing that it could jeopardize continuing investigations and alert would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny. After meeting with senior administration officials to hear their concerns, the newspaper delayed publication for a year to conduct additional reporting. Some information that administration officials argued could be useful to terrorists has been omitted.
The Times believes that it should be the arbiter of what will and will not help the terrorists and thus impair our national security. I don't agree. Under the Plame precedent, this case is a no-brainer. The intelligence officials who leaked to the Times should be identified, criminally prosecuted, and sent to prison. Under the Pentagon Papers case, the reporters and editors at the Times who published the leaked story can't be criminally prosecuted. Perhaps the Supreme Court should revisit that precedent when the opportunity arises.



Posted by: MonsterMark

http://drudgereport.com/flash9nyt.htm

NYT 'SPYING' SPLASH TIED TO BOOK RELEASE
Fri Dec 16 200 11:27:16 ET

**Exclusive**

Newspaper fails to inform readers "news break" is tied to book publication

On the front page of today's NEW YORK TIMES, national security reporter James Risen claims that "months after the September 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States... without the court approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials."

Risen claims the White House asked the paper not to publish the article, saying that it could jeopardize continuing investigations and alert would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny.

Risen claims the TIMES delayed publication of the article for a year to conduct additional reporting.

But now comes word James Risen's article is only one of many "explosive newsbreaking" stories that can be found -- in his upcoming book -- which he turned in 3 months ago!

The paper failed to reveal the urgent story was tied to a book release and sale.

"STATE OF WAR: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration" is to be published by FREE PRESS in the coming weeks, sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

Carisa Hays, VP, Director of Publicity FREE PRESS, confirms the book is being published.

The book editor of Bush critic Richard Clarke [AGAINST ALL ENEMIES] signed Risen to FREE PRESS.



Posted by: MonsterMark

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/white..._12-16-05.html

JIM LEHRER: Mr. President, welcome.

PRESIDENT BUSH: Thank you, sir.

JIM LEHRER: First, the New York Times story this morning that says that you authorized secret wiretaps by the National Security Agency of thousands of Americans. Is that true?

PRESIDENT BUSH: Jim, we do not discuss ongoing intelligence operations to protect the country, and the reason why is that there's an enemy that lurks, that would like to know exactly what we're trying to do to stop them.


I will make this point. That whatever I do to protect the American people, and I have an obligation to do so, that we will uphold the law, and decisions made are made understanding we have an obligation to protect the civil liberties of the American people.

JIM LEHRER: So if, in fact, these things did occur, they were done legally and properly?

PRESIDENT BUSH: So you're trying to get me to talk about a program--

JIM LEHRER: Yeah.

PRESIDENT BUSH: --that's important not to talk about, and the reason why is that we're at a war with an enemy that still wants to attack.

I-- after 9/11, I told the American people I would do everything in my power to protect the country, within the law, and that's exactly how I conduct my presidency.

JIM LEHRER: Mr. President, in all due respect, don't you believe that answer is going to lead people to believe that you're confirming that in fact you did this?

PRESIDENT BUSH: We don't talk about sources and methods. Don't talk about ongoing intelligence operations. I know there's speculation. But it's important for the American people to understand that we will do-- or I will use my powers to protect us, and I will do so under the law, and that's important for our citizens to understand.

JIM LEHRER: I don't want to "beat a dead horse" here, Mr. President--

PRESIDENT BUSH: Okay.

JIM LEHRER: --but the story is now all over the world.

PRESIDENT BUSH: Yeah.

JIM LEHRER: I mean, it's on the front page of the New York Times, the Washington Post, every newspaper in America today, and it's going--it's the main story of the day. So--

PRESIDENT BUSH: It's not the main story of the day.

JIM LEHRER: Well, but I mean in terms of the way it's being covered--

PRESIDENT BUSH: The main story of the day is the Iraqi election.

JIM LEHRER: Right, and I'm going to get to that.

PRESIDENT BUSH: Okay.

JIM LEHRER: But I mean, is it correct to say that the National Security Agency is normally told to do surveillance only on international calls rather than domestic calls, without reference to this specific thing?

PRESIDENT BUSH: I-- Jim, I know that people are anxious to know the details of operations, they-- people want me to comment about the veracity of the story. It's the policy of this government, just not going do it, and the reason why is is that because it would compromise our ability to protect the people.

I think the point that Americans really want to know is twofold. One, are we doing everything we can to protect the people? And two, are we protecting civil liberties as we do so?

And my answer to both is yes, we are.



Posted by: MonsterMark

http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2103

December 16, 2005
Bush Apologizes for Phone Taps After 9/11
by Scott Ott

(2005-12-16) — President George Bush today apologized to the American people for signing an order in 2002 that allowed the National Security Agency (NSA) to secretly listen in on international phone calls in the wake of the 9/11 terror attacks.

The New York Times today broke the story that after 9/11 the NSA tapped phonelines of hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of Americans without court orders in an effort to trace communication networks discovered on computers and cellphones confiscated from terror suspects.

“I want to apologize for allowing the NSA to do these wiretaps after 9/11,” the president said. “I’m sorry that I violated the privacy of some of these folks after terrorists launched attacks from our soil that killed 3,000 people, destroyed two skyscrapers and four jumbo jets, and punched a gaping hole in our military headquarters.”

“My biggest regret,” the president added, “is that the NSA didn’t secretly tap these lines before 9/11. I hope my fellow Americans can forgive me.”



Posted by: MonsterMark

This is what the uproar is all about. Put everyone from the NYT in jail and throw away the key. Of course you won't hear about this "special collection program" in the mainstream media. If the people knew the truth about this, everyone, even you nutcases on the left would support the President's actions. And btw, all the taps and such were revealed by the administration at some point

What the agency calls a “special collection program” began soon after the Sept. 11 attacks, as it looked for new tools to attack terrorism. The program accelerated in early 2002 after the Central Intelligence Agency started capturing top Qaeda operatives overseas, including Abu Zubaydah, who was arrested in Pakistan in March 2002. The C.I.A. seized the terrorists’ computers, cellphones and personal phone directories, said the officials familiar with the program. The N.S.A. surveillance was intended to exploit those numbers and addresses as quickly as possible, the officials said.



Posted by: MonsterMark

More from the Times story...

In mid-2004, concerns about the program expressed by national security officials, government lawyers and a judge prompted the Bush administration to suspend elements of the program and revamp it.

For the first time, the Justice Department audited the N.S.A. program, several officials said. And to provide more guidance, the Justice Department and the agency expanded and refined a checklist to follow in deciding whether probable cause existed to start monitoring someone's communications, several officials said.

A complaint from Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly, the federal judge who oversees the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Court, helped spur the suspension, officials said. The judge questioned whether information obtained under the N.S.A. program was being improperly used as the basis for F.I.S.A. wiretap warrant requests from the Justice Department, according to senior government officials. While not knowing all the details of the exchange, several government lawyers said there appeared to be concerns that the Justice Department, by trying to shield the existence of the N.S.A. program, was in danger of misleading the court about the origins of the information cited to justify the warrants.

One official familiar with the episode said the judge insisted to Justice Department lawyers at one point that any material gathered under the special N.S.A. program not be used in seeking wiretap warrants from her court. Judge Kollar-Kotelly did not return calls for comment.

A related issue arose in a case in which the F.B.I. was monitoring the communications of a terrorist suspect under a F.I.S.A.-approved warrant, even though the National Security Agency was already conducting warrantless eavesdropping. According to officials, F.B.I. surveillance of Mr. Faris, the Brooklyn Bridge plotter, was dropped for a short time because of technical problems. At the time, senior Justice Department officials worried what would happen if the N.S.A. picked up information that needed to be presented in court. The government would then either have to disclose the N.S.A. program or mislead a criminal court about how it had gotten the information.



Posted by: MonsterMark

From Bob Owens of the Confederate Yankee...

In a time of extraordinary circumstances, while the remains of murdered Americans were still being recovered from Ground Zero, the Pentagon, and a field outside Shanksville, the President decided that stopping terrorists from killing more Americans was more important than entertaining the delicate sensibilities of the ACLU.
Thank God we have you, James Risen and Eric Lichtblau of the New York Times to guard our civil liberties! I just wish that you had been able to get this information when it was fresh and still of use to al Qaeda. Oh wait, it still might be, and you don't care...


More from Bob
His post got me thinking about what the cost of freedom really is. After hearing Cindy Sheehan announce yet again this morning that her son "died for nothing," I thought I'd crunch some numbers to see what Casey Sheehan's mortal sacrifice, his most precious resource, really bought.

More than he wound have dared imagine.
War..........................# US Soldiers Killed.....Population Freed..# Freed/U.S. Killed
World War I(France)..............115,000............39 million................339
World War II(France, Belgium)..116,991...........48 million................410
1991 Gulf War(Kuwait)..................472...........2 million................8968
GWOT(Afghanistan)......................223*....... .30 million...........134,529*
GWOT(Iraq)..............................1,865*.... ....26 million.............13,941*
GWOT(Combined)......................2,088*........ .56 million............26,819*
* On-going



Posted by: 97silverlsc

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterMark
From Bob Owens of the Confederate Yankee...

In a time of extraordinary circumstances, while the remains of murdered Americans were still being recovered from Ground Zero, the Pentagon, and a field outside Shanksville, the President decided that stopping terrorists from killing more Americans was more important than entertaining the delicate sensibilities of the ACLU.
You forgot the "zeig heil".



Posted by: MonsterMark

http://corner.nationalreview.com/05_...ive.asp#084896

EAVESDROPPING INS AND OUTS [Mark R. Levin]
Some brief background: The Foreign Intelligence Security Act permits the government to monitor foreign communications, even if they are with U.S. citizens -- 50 USC 1801, et seq. A FISA warrant is only needed if the subject communications are wholly contained in the United States and involve a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power.

The reason the President probably had to sign an executive order is that the Justice Department office that processes FISA requests, the Office of Intelligence Policy and Review (OIPR), can take over 6 months to get a standard FISA request approved. It can become extremely bureaucratic, depending on who is handling the request. His executive order is not contrary to FISA if he believed, as he clearly did, that he needed to act quickly. The president has constitutional powers, too.

It's also clear from the Times piece that Rockefeller knew about the government's eavesdropping, as did the FISA court. By the time this story is fully fleshed out, we'll learn that many others knew about it, too. To the best of my knowledge, Rockefeller didn't take any steps to stop the eavesdropping. And he's no friend of this administration. Nor is he above using intelligence for political purposes, as his now infamous memorandum demonstrates.

But these leaks -- about secret prisons in Europe, CIA front companies, and now secret wiretaps, are egregious violations of law and extremely detrimental to our national security. They are far worse than any aspect of the Plame matter. The question is whether our government is capable of tracking down these perpetrators and punishing them, or will we continue to allow the Times and Washington Post determine national security policy. And if these wiretaps are violative of our civil liberties, it's curious that the Times would wait a year to report about it. I cannot remember the last time, or first time, this newspaper reported a leak that was helpful to our war effort.



Posted by: MonsterMark

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson...0512160710.asp

December 16, 2005, 7:10 a.m.
Lancing the Boil

We quietly keep on killing terrorists, promoting elections in Iraq, pressuring Arab autocracies to democratize, and growing the economy.



For some time, a large number of Americans have lived in an alternate universe where everything is supposedly going to hell. If you get up in the morning to read the New York Times or Washington Post, watch John Murtha or Howard Dean on the morning talk shows, listen to National Public Radio at noon, and go to bed reading Newsweek it surely seems that the administration is incommunicado (cf. “the bubble”), the war is lost (“unwinnable”), the Great Depression is back (“jobless recovery”), and America about as popular as Nazi Germany abroad (“alone and isolated”). [snip]



Posted by: MonsterMark

America suffers a defeat for freedom and the left rejoices...

http://apnews.excite.com/article/200...D8EHFRVO9.html
By JESSE J. HOLLAND

(AP) U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff speaks, Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2005, in New York. ...
Full Image



WASHINGTON (AP) - The Senate on Friday rejected attempts to reauthorize several provisions of the USA Patriot Act as infringing too much on Americans' privacy and liberty, dealing a huge defeat to the Bush administration and Republican leaders.[snip]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And wait till they try to pin the next attack on the Administration. The Democrats are responsible for making this Country less secure today. Be sure to thank them.



Posted by: MonsterMark

Just putting the truth out there for those less fortunate that only get their information (or should I call it disinformation) from the mainstream press.

I have noticed a distinct pattern in your postings that you have nothing to offer the discussion except snide remarks.

What do you think of what BIG BAD BUSH has done?

I know I sleep better knowing that we have a guy in office who is not only fighting the enemy overseas, but also the enemy within (NYT, WAPO, Democrats, Liberals).

I truly hope conservatives and republicans lose the legislative and administrative branches in '08. I also hope that Bush lets our enemy know that the timetable to attack is the day after he leaves office. He might as well send them some choice targets as a going away present.



Posted by: barry2952

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterMark
I have noticed a distinct pattern in your postings that you have nothing to offer the discussion except snide remarks.
That is hilarious coming for the "King of Cheap Shots".



Posted by: MonsterMark

So your lack of response indicates that you are in favor of what Bush has done and will continue to do as long as he is President. Here you go, here's a glass of water as you choke that thought down.



Posted by: fossten

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry2952
Now you've taken to answering your own posts like Vitas.
That's funny, Barry, I don't see Phil answering his posts. In fact, all I see is Bryan KICKING PHIL'S A$$ ALL OVER THIS THREAD.

Where are you, Phil? Are you out of FACTS? Where are YOUR FACTS, barry? Don't you have anything else to offer except little one-liners?

You guys are getting

There's just no other way to describe it.

Nice going Bryan. Keep it up, they're on the run.



Posted by: MonsterMark

Come on guys. Let's make this an honest and constructive thread. Everybody says Bush lied us into war. It has been stated again and again. Therefore, for that to be true. there must be evidence of that. Please post it here. Feel free to post articles in defense of your theory. No snide remarks please. Just (what you consider to be) facts.


If Bush lied us into war, please refute this. Take your time and take your best shot.


COMMENTARY

December 2005

Who Is Lying About Iraq?

Norman Podhoretz

Among the many distortions, misrepresentations, and outright falsifications that have emerged from the debate over Iraq, one in particular stands out above all others. This is the charge that George W. Bush misled us into an immoral and/or unnecessary war in Iraq by telling a series of lies that have now been definitively exposed.

What makes this charge so special is the amazing success it has enjoyed in getting itself established as a self-evident truth even though it has been refuted and discredited over and over again by evidence and argument alike. In this it resembles nothing so much as those animated cartoon characters who, after being flattened, blown up, or pushed over a cliff, always spring back to life with their bodies perfectly intact. Perhaps, like those cartoon characters, this allegation simply cannot be killed off, no matter what.

Nevertheless, I want to take one more shot at exposing it for the lie that it itself really is. Although doing so will require going over ground that I and many others have covered before, I hope that revisiting this well-trodden terrain may also serve to refresh memories that have grown dim, to clarify thoughts that have grown confused, and to revive outrage that has grown commensurately dulled.




The main “lie” that George W. Bush is accused of telling us is that Saddam Hussein possessed an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, or WMD as they have invariably come to be called. From this followed the subsidiary “lie” that Iraq under Saddam’s regime posed a two-edged mortal threat. On the one hand, we were informed, there was a distinct (or even “imminent”) possibility that Saddam himself would use these weapons against us and/or our allies; and on the other hand, there was the still more dangerous possibility that he would supply them to terrorists like those who had already attacked us on 9/11 and to whom he was linked.

This entire scenario of purported deceit has been given a new lease on life by the indictment in late October of I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, then chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. Libby stands accused of making false statements to the FBI and of committing perjury in testifying before a grand jury that had been convened to find out who in the Bush administration had “outed” Valerie Plame, a CIA agent married to the retired ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, IV. The supposed purpose of leaking this classified information to the press was to retaliate against Wilson for having “debunked” (in his words) “the lies that led to war.”

Now, as it happens, Libby was not charged with having outed Plame but only with having lied about when and from whom he first learned that she worked for the CIA. Moreover, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor who brought the indictment against him, made a point of emphasizing that

[t]his indictment is not about the war. This indictment is not about the propriety of the war. And people who believe fervently in the war effort, people who oppose it, people who have mixed feelings about it should not look to this indictment for any resolution of how they feel or any vindication of how they feel.

This is simply an indictment that says, in a national-security investigation about the compromise of a CIA officer’s identity that may have taken place in the context of a very heated debate over the war, whether some person—a person, Mr. Libby—lied or not.

No matter. Harry Reid, the Democratic leader in the Senate, spoke for a host of other opponents of the war in insisting that

[t]his case is bigger than the leak of classified information. It is about how the Bush White House manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to bolster its case for the war in Iraq and to discredit anyone who dared to challenge the President.

Yet even stipulating—which I do only for the sake of argument—that no weapons of mass destruction existed in Iraq in the period leading up to the invasion, it defies all reason to think that Bush was lying when he asserted that they did. To lie means to say something one knows to be false. But it is as close to certainty as we can get that Bush believed in the truth of what he was saying about WMD in Iraq.

How indeed could it have been otherwise? George Tenet, his own CIA director, assured him that the case was “a slam dunk.” This phrase would later become notorious, but in using it, Tenet had the backing of all fifteen agencies involved in gathering intelligence for the United States. In the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of 2002, where their collective views were summarized, one of the conclusions offered with “high confidence” was that

Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions.

The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and—yes—France all agreed with this judgment. And even Hans Blix—who headed the UN team of inspectors trying to determine whether Saddam had complied with the demands of the Security Council that he get rid of the weapons of mass destruction he was known to have had in the past—lent further credibility to the case in a report he issued only a few months before the invasion:

The discovery of a number of 122-mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker at a storage depot 170 km southwest of Baghdad was much publicized. This was a relatively new bunker, and therefore the rockets must have been moved there in the past few years, at a time when Iraq should not have had such munitions. . . . They could also be the tip of a submerged iceberg. The discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for.

Blix now claims that he was only being “cautious” here, but if, as he now also adds, the Bush administration “misled itself” in interpreting the evidence before it, he at the very least lent it a helping hand.




So, once again, did the British, the French, and the Germans, all of whom signed on in advance to Secretary of State Colin Powell’s reading of the satellite photos he presented to the UN in the period leading up to the invasion. Powell himself and his chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, now feel that this speech was the low point of his tenure as Secretary of State. But Wilkerson (in the process of a vicious attack on the President, the Vice President, and the Secretary of Defense for getting us into Iraq) is forced to acknowledge that the Bush administration did not lack for company in interpreting the available evidence as it did:

I can’t tell you why the French, the Germans, the Brits, and us thought that most of the material, if not all of it, that we presented at the UN on 5 February 2003 was the truth. I can’t. I’ve wrestled with it. [But] when you see a satellite photograph of all the signs of the chemical-weapons ASP—Ammunition Supply Point—with chemical weapons, and you match all those signs with your matrix on what should show a chemical ASP, and they’re there, you have to conclude that it’s a chemical ASP, especially when you see the next satellite photograph which shows the UN inspectors wheeling in their white vehicles with black markings on them to that same ASP, and everything is changed, everything is clean. . . . But George [Tenet] was convinced, John McLaughlin [Tenet’s deputy] was convinced, that what we were presented [for Powell’s UN speech] was accurate.

Going on to shoot down a widespread impression, Wilkerson informs us that even the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) was convinced:

People say, well, INR dissented. That’s a bunch of bull. INR dissented that the nuclear program was up and running. That’s all INR dissented on. They were right there with the chems and the bios.

In explaining its dissent on Iraq’s nuclear program, the INR had, as stated in the NIE of 2002, expressed doubt about

Iraq’s efforts to acquire aluminum tubes [which are] central to the argument that Baghdad is reconstituting its nuclear-weapons program. . . . INR is not persuaded that the tubes in question are intended for use as centrifuge rotors . . . in Iraq’s nuclear-weapons program.

But, according to Wilkerson,

The French came in in the middle of my deliberations at the CIA and said, we have just spun aluminum tubes, and by God, we did it to this RPM, et cetera, et cetera, and it was all, you know, proof positive that the aluminum tubes were not for mortar casings or artillery casings, they were for centrifuges. Otherwise, why would you have such exquisite instruments?

In short, and whether or not it included the secret heart of Hans Blix, “the consensus of the intelligence community,” as Wilkerson puts it, “was overwhelming” in the period leading up to the invasion of Iraq that Saddam definitely had an arsenal of chemical and biological weapons, and that he was also in all probability well on the way to rebuilding the nuclear capability that the Israelis had damaged by bombing the Osirak reactor in 1981.

Additional confirmation of this latter point comes from Kenneth Pollack, who served in the National Security Council under Clinton. “In the late spring of 2002,” Pollack has written,

I participated in a Washington meeting about Iraqi WMD. Those present included nearly twenty former inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), the force established in 1991 to oversee the elimination of WMD in Iraq. One of the senior people put a question to the group: did anyone in the room doubt that Iraq was currently operating a secret centrifuge plant? No one did. Three people added that they believed Iraq was also operating a secret calutron plant (a facility for separating uranium isotopes).

No wonder, then, that another conclusion the NIE of 2002 reached with “high confidence” was that

Iraq could make a nuclear weapon in months to a year once it acquires sufficient weapons-grade fissile material.1




But the consensus on which Bush relied was not born in his own administration. In fact, it was first fully formed in the Clinton administration. Here is Clinton himself, speaking in 1998:

If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons-of-mass-destruction program.

Here is his Secretary of State Madeline Albright, also speaking in 1998:

Iraq is a long way from [the USA], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.

Here is Sandy Berger, Clinton’s National Security Adviser, who chimed in at the same time with this flat-out assertion about Saddam:

He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.

Finally, Clinton’s Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, was so sure Saddam had stockpiles of WMD that he remained “absolutely convinced” of it even after our failure to find them in the wake of the invasion in March 2003.

Nor did leading Democrats in Congress entertain any doubts on this score. A few months after Clinton and his people made the statements I have just quoted, a group of Democratic Senators, including such liberals as Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, and John Kerry, urged the President

to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons-of-mass-destruction programs.

Nancy Pelosi, the future leader of the Democrats in the House, and then a member of the House Intelligence Committee, added her voice to the chorus:

Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons-of-mass-destruction technology, which is a threat to countries in the region, and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.

This Democratic drumbeat continued and even intensified when Bush succeeded Clinton in 2001, and it featured many who would later pretend to have been deceived by the Bush White House. In a letter to the new President, a number of Senators led by Bob Graham declared:

There is no doubt that . . . Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical, and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf war status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.

Senator Carl Levin also reaffirmed for Bush’s benefit what he had told Clinton some years earlier:

Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations, and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton agreed, speaking in October 2002:

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical- and biological-weapons stock, his missile-delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al-Qaeda members.

Senator Jay Rockefeller, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, agreed as well:

There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. . . . We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.

Even more striking were the sentiments of Bush’s opponents in his two campaigns for the presidency. Thus Al Gore in September 2002:

We know that [Saddam] has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.

And here is Gore again, in that same year:

Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter, and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.

Now to John Kerry, also speaking in 2002:

I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force—if necessary—to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.




Perhaps most startling of all, given the rhetoric that they would later employ against Bush after the invasion of Iraq, are statements made by Senators Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd, also in 2002:

Kennedy: We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.

Byrd: The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical- and biological-warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons.2

Liberal politicians like these were seconded by the mainstream media, in whose columns a very different tune would later be sung. For example, throughout the last two years of the Clinton administration, editorials in the New York Times repeatedly insisted that

without further outside intervention, Iraq should be able to rebuild weapons and missile plants within a year [and] future military attacks may be required to diminish the arsenal again.

The Times was also skeptical of negotiations, pointing out that it was

hard to negotiate with a tyrant who has no intention of honoring his commitments and who sees nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons as his country’s salvation.

So, too, the Washington Post, which greeted the inauguration of George W. Bush in January 2001 with the admonition that

[o]f all the booby traps left behind by the Clinton administration, none is more dangerous—or more urgent—than the situation in Iraq. Over the last year, Mr. Clinton and his team quietly avoided dealing with, or calling attention to, the almost complete unraveling of a decade’s efforts to isolate the regime of Saddam Hussein and prevent it from rebuilding its weapons of mass destruction. That leaves President Bush to confront a dismaying panorama in the Persian Gulf [where] intelligence photos . . . show the reconstruction of factories long suspected of producing chemical and biological weapons.3




Posted by: fossten

An excellent summation. I will save this link and use it anytime any of you Fibs (like Phil) try to use the old "Bush lied" baloney.

Where are you Fibs? Hmmm? Nothing to say? Cat got your tongue? Can't argue with the truth?

Let's rename this thread:

Another Phil "WHOOPS!"



Posted by: 97silverlsc

Quote:
Originally Posted by fossten
That's funny, Barry, I don't see Phil answering his posts. In fact, all I see is Bryan KICKING PHIL'S A$$ ALL OVER THIS THREAD.

Where are you, Phil? Are you out of FACTS? Where are YOUR FACTS, barry? Don't you have anything else to offer except little one-liners?

You guys are getting

There's just no other way to describe it.

Nice going Bryan. Keep it up, they're on the run.
No matter what the source of articles I post, you, bryan and calabrio will dismiss them because of that source. You all respond with articles from your own sources and view them as gospel. What is the point in discussing anything with a group who think that they have "won" the discussion by repeating over and over that my posts are invalid because of the source? I post articles of interest and op-eds that I agree with. I see no point in discussing with you the merits of those posts because you think that saying the source is invalid or verbally "bullying" posters creates a "win" for you. The way I see it, this administration has done great damage to this country. You can't or won't. I will continue to post articles and op-eds I find interesting as I know there are others who find them of interest as well. Don't like it? Don't read them and don't respond to them.



Posted by: Vitas

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry2952
Now you've taken to answering your own posts like Vitas.
Everytime, Barry, that I have responded to your cheap shots at me, you go RUNNING FOR COVER.

You complain, to Joey, and Mark, asking them to protect you from me. That is a fact, isn't it?

If you can't stand the heat in the kitchen, Barry, stay out of the kitchen. It is as simple as that.



Posted by: fossten

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97silverlsc
No matter what the source of articles I post, you, bryan and calabrio will dismiss them because of that source. You all respond with articles from your own sources and view them as gospel. What is the point in discussing anything with a group who think that they have "won" the discussion by repeating over and over that my posts are invalid because of the source? I post articles of interest and op-eds that I agree with. I see no point in discussing with you the merits of those posts because you think that saying the source is invalid or verbally "bullying" posters creates a "win" for you. The way I see it, this administration has done great damage to this country. You can't or won't. I will continue to post articles and op-eds I find interesting as I know there are others who find them of interest as well. Don't like it? Don't read them and don't respond to them.
Sorry, Phil, you can't continue to hide behind that flimsy excuse. Your problem is that you are SO EAGER to say anything bad about Bush that you latch onto the first article you see on GOOGLE without even checking its credibility. I had already heard about that article, and I can tell you that its information is phony.

Find for me the last time I needed to discredit your source in order to discredit the lousy article you posted. I submit you won't find anything recent. Bryan hasn't bothered even to address your article in this thread, but is instead posting rebuttal articles which are obliterating your article's credibility. Obviously that upsets you, so maybe you should try posting the truth in the future. Otherwise your false articles will continue to be exposed.



Posted by: fossten

Here, Phil, eat this:

John McCain: Bush Right to Use NSA


Sen. John McCain disappointed Democrats on Capitol Hill on Sunday by defending the Bush administration's decision to use the National Security Agency to monitor a limited number of domestic phone calls in the wake of the 9/11 attacks.

Saying that Sept. 11 "changed everything," McCain told ABC's "This Week": "The president, I think, has the right to do this."

"We all know that since Sept. 11 we have new challenges with enemies that exist within the United States of America - so the equation has changed."

McCain said that while the administration needs to explain why it didn't first seek approval from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, he suggested that the Patriot Act might have superseded the 1978 FISA Act, allowing "additional powers for the president."

McCain said the fact that congressional leaders - including top Democrats - were consulted on the NSA authorization "is a very important part of this equation." He suggested that any congressional hearings into the Bush decision focus on that aspect.
"I'd like to hear from the leaders of Congress, both Republican and Democrat, who, according to reports, we're briefed on this and agreed to it," he told "This Week." "They didn't raise any objection, apparently, to [whether] there was a, quote, violation of law."

Asked about House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi's claim that she "raised concerns" about granting the NSA new powers during one meeting with White House officials, McCain said: "I don't know about any meetings, but I certainly never heard complaints from anyone on either side of the aisle.

"When this process was being carried out I would imagine that the leaders of Congress would be very concerned about any violation of law as well," he said. "Apparently [those concerns have] not been raised until it was published in the New York Times."

McCain also warned that any congressional investigation should take care not to force additional disclosures from the White House that could help the enemy, saying: "I don't see anything wrong with congressional hearings but what kind of information are you going to put into the public arena that might help the al Qaida people in going undetected."

http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/18/142705.shtml



Posted by: fossten

Sunday, Dec. 18, 2005 10:10 p.m. EST
Clinton NSA Eavesdropped on U.S. Calls


During the 1990's under President Clinton, the National Security Agency monitored millions of private phone calls placed by U.S. citizens and citizens of other countries under a super secret program code-named Echelon.

On Friday, the New York Times suggested that the Bush administration has instituted "a major shift in American intelligence-gathering practices" when it "secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without [obtaining] court-approved warrants."

But in fact, the NSA had been monitoring private domestic telephone conversations on a much larger scale throughout the 1990s - all of it done without a court order, let alone a catalyst like the 9/11 attacks.

In February 2000, for instance, CBS "60 Minutes" correspondent Steve Kroft introduced a report on the Clinton-era spy program by noting:

"If you made a phone call today or sent an e-mail to a friend, there's a good chance what you said or wrote was captured and screened by the country's largest intelligence agency. The top-secret Global Surveillance Network is called Echelon, and it's run by the National Security Agency."
NSA computers, said Kroft, "capture virtually every electronic conversation around the world."

Echelon expert Mike Frost, who spent 20 years as a spy for the Canadian equivalent of the National Security Agency, told "60 Minutes" that the agency was monitoring "everything from data transfers to cell phones to portable phones to baby monitors to ATMs."

Mr. Frost detailed activities at one unidentified NSA installation, telling "60 Minutes" that agency operators "can listen in to just about anything" - while Echelon computers screen phone calls for key words that might indicate a terrorist threat.

The "60 Minutes" report also spotlighted Echelon critic, then-Rep. Bob Barr, who complained that the project as it was being implemented under Clinton "engages in the interception of literally millions of communications involving United States citizens."


One Echelon operator working in Britain told "60 Minutes" that the NSA had even monitored and tape recorded the conversations of the late Sen. Strom Thurmond.

Still, the Times repeatedly insisted on Friday that NSA surveillance under Bush had been unprecedented, at one point citing anonymously an alleged former national security official who claimed: "This is really a sea change. It's almost a mainstay of this country that the NSA only does foreign searches."

http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/18/221452.shtml



Posted by: MonsterMark

A shining moment is upon us showcasing liberal hypocracy for all the world to see. If the Democrats think that this is a winning issue for them, go for it.

Step into the trap set by own hatred and watch the American people chop it off when the truth comes out.

Can't wait to see people go to jail over this. Compare this to the Plame Game. What a joke.



Posted by: barry2952

I don't have a problem with the NSA using wiretaps. I do have a problem with them abusing the tool.

Am I to understand that the President has to give direct authorization and it has only been used 30 times, or has the permit to use unlimited wiretaps been renewed 30 times? That's unclear to me.



Posted by: 97silverlsc

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterMark
The New York Times. The United States version of Al-Jezeera. Wonderful.

The NYT. A traitorist organization if I ever saw one.
Don't have to go any further than the top of this thread to see your crew attack the source, fossten. Keep deluding yourself. The wheels of justice move slowly, but we are finally starting to see just how much the Repugs have abused the monopoly they have on control of the house, senate and white house. Abramoff, along with Delay and Plamegate are just the beginning.
There is nothing wrong with the president using FISA, the problem is with how he used it. He circumvented the courts every(?) time which is what is the most disturbing about this revelation. The courts have a good record of approving the wiretap requests under this act, there was no reason to bypass the courts. They are allowed to start wiretaps immediately in cases of emergencies and apply for the warrant within 72 hours, but this was not done.



Posted by: 97silverlsc

Quote:
Originally Posted by fossten
Here, Phil, eat this:

John McCain: Bush Right to Use NSA


Sen. John McCain disappointed Democrats on Capitol Hill on Sunday by defending the Bush administration's decision to use the National Security Agency to monitor a limited number of domestic phone calls in the wake of the 9/11 attacks.

Saying that Sept. 11 "changed everything," McCain told ABC's "This Week": "The president, I think, has the right to do this."

"We all know that since Sept. 11 we have new challenges with enemies that exist within the United States of America - so the equation has changed."

McCain said that while the administration needs to explain why it didn't first seek approval from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, he suggested that the Patriot Act might have superseded the 1978 FISA Act, allowing "additional powers for the president."

McCain said the fact that congressional leaders - including top Democrats - were consulted on the NSA authorization "is a very important part of this equation." He suggested that any congressional hearings into the Bush decision focus on that aspect.
"I'd like to hear from the leaders of Congress, both Republican and Democrat, who, according to reports, we're briefed on this and agreed to it," he told "This Week." "They didn't raise any objection, apparently, to [whether] there was a, quote, violation of law."

Asked about House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi's claim that she "raised concerns" about granting the NSA new powers during one meeting with White House officials, McCain said: "I don't know about any meetings, but I certainly never heard complaints from anyone on either side of the aisle.

"When this process was being carried out I would imagine that the leaders of Congress would be very concerned about any violation of law as well," he said. "Apparently [those concerns have] not been raised until it was published in the New York Times."

McCain also warned that any congressional investigation should take care not to force additional disclosures from the White House that could help the enemy, saying: "I don't see anything wrong with congressional hearings but what kind of information are you going to put into the public arena that might help the al Qaida people in going undetected."

http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/18/142705.shtml
YOU show YOUR Hypocrasy by Calling McCain a traitor in one thread and then using him to defend what Shrub has done in another!!



Posted by: fossten

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97silverlsc
Don't have to go any further than the top of this thread to see your crew attack the source, fossten. Keep deluding yourself. The wheels of justice move slowly, but we are finally starting to see just how much the Repugs have abused the monopoly they have on control of the house, senate and white house. Abramoff, along with Delay and Plamegate are just the beginning.
There is nothing wrong with the president using FISA, the problem is with how he used it. He circumvented the courts every(?) time which is what is the most disturbing about this revelation. The courts have a good record of approving the wiretap requests under this act, there was no reason to bypass the courts. They are allowed to start wiretaps immediately in cases of emergencies and apply for the warrant within 72 hours, but this was not done.
Oh, yeah, thanks for reminding me. Speaking of Abramoff, how do you feel about the FACT that your LibDem leader Harry Reid accepted $66,000 in donations from Abramoff? Hmmm? I bet you don't want to hear about that scandal. Neither did Harry Reid, when he was confronted with it.

Reid won't be returning lobbyist contributions

Spokeswoman says senator sees no reason to return funds

By TONY BATT
STEPHENS WASHINGTON BUREAU






WASHINGTON -- Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid will not return campaign contributions he received during the past five years from lobbyists and clients associated with Jack Abramoff, a Reid spokeswoman said Friday.

Federal officials are investigating whether Abramoff, a lobbyist, bilked millions of dollars from Indian gaming tribes.

Reid, D-Nev., and other Democrats have been sharply critical of House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, who has close ties to Abramoff.

About two-thirds of Abramoff-related campaign funds were given to Republicans. But The Washington Post reported that Abramoff also cultivated Democrats, including Reid.

Reid received $6,500 from Abramoff's associates at the Greenberg Traurig law and lobbying firm from 1999 through 2004, The Washington Post reported Friday.

During the same period, Reid received $40,500 from Indian tribes that were Abramoff clients, the paper reported based on research of federal records.

Reid does not know Abramoff, Reid spokeswoman Tessa Hafen said.

But Abramoff hired Eddie Ayoob, who was Reid's legislative counsel until 2002 and was assistant finance director on Reid's 1998 Senate campaign.

Ayoob held a fund-raising reception for Reid at the offices of Greenberg Traurig, according to The Washington Post.

Calls to Ayoob on Friday were not returned. Ayoob left Greenberg Traurig earlier this year to join Barnes & Thornburg, another Washington law firm.

Hafen said Ayoob has not done any fund-raising for Reid this year. But, she added, "there is no reason to expect that he will not continue to raise money."

Reid declined an interview request Friday. Hafen said he sees no reason to return the money.

"Indian tribes have the same opportunity as anyone else to participate in the political process," Hafen said. "There is no reason to even make that suggestion."

Federal investigators are examining millions of dollars that Abramoff collected from Indian tribes for lobbying and public relations work.

Reid received his contributions while serving on the Senate Indian Affairs Committee. He gave up that assignment after he was elected minority leader late last year.

Ernie Stevens, Jr., chairman of the National Indian Gaming Association, said he does not think money from gaming tribes has made a big difference with Reid.

"We don't always agree with Senator Reid, but I think he has been consistent on Indian gaming issues, and I don't think the contributions have changed his posture on any of those issues," Stevens said. "This is all part of the political process and we have a right to participate."



Posted by: fossten

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97silverlsc
YOU show YOUR Hypocrasy by Calling McCain a traitor in one thread and then using him to defend what Shrub has done in another!!
Wrong. Your template is to be against a PERSON or ENTITY, no matter what that PERSON or ENTITY does. That prevents you from ever agreeing with anything good that Bush does, and it also prevents you from criticizing your own leaders when they are wrong, which is 99% of the time.

My template is to be intellectually honest, which means to judge each behavior as a singular event, and comment honestly on whether or not I think it's right. That allows me to criticize my leaders and even agree with my opponents if they happen to be right. "Even a broken clock..."

Your template is the epitome of hypocrisy. Mine is simple intellectual honesty.



Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry2952
I don't have a problem with the NSA using wiretaps. I do have a problem with them abusing the tool.

Am I to understand that the President has to give direct authorization and it has only been used 30 times, or has the permit to use unlimited wiretaps been renewed 30 times? That's unclear to me.
Since 9/11, Bush has authorized the taps 30 times. Each tap was reviewed after 45 days or so. How many taps were made, don't know. Supposed to be 5 years for each illegal tap, so maybe the Democrats can hang Bush for 2530 years, or something like that!

A warrant is only needed for state to state taps. All inter-continental communications, whether inbound or outbound have never been coverd under FISA but the lame blame media won't report the truth to the American public.

I am waiting for the names of the Congressman that were informed this was going on since 9/11 to come forward. I understand Rockerfeller was one of them. Should be interesting to see him act like he is outraged when he was one of the culpable ones.



Posted by: RB3

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97silverlsc
No matter what the source of articles I post, you, bryan and calabrio will dismiss them because of that source. You all respond with articles from your own sources and view them as gospel. What is the point in discussing anything with a group who think that they have "won" the discussion by repeating over and over that my posts are invalid because of the source? I post articles of interest and op-eds that I agree with. I see no point in discussing with you the merits of those posts because you think that saying the source is invalid or verbally "bullying" posters creates a "win" for you. The way I see it, this administration has done great damage to this country. You can't or won't. I will continue to post articles and op-eds I find interesting as I know there are others who find them of interest as well. Don't like it? Don't read them and don't respond to them.
Here's a news flash for you...Your articles are dismissed not only because of the source, but because they are a) provably factually incorrect, or b) contain no facts, only rumor, innuendo, and opinion. The source is cited primarily because your sources in the past have time and again been fact challenged or attempted to pass off opinion as fact.

The articles posted in response to you contain actual facts, and are further supported by the logical arguments of the poster. Your arguments consist primarily of calling everyone else names.

I find it fascinating that you post "articles of interest and op-eds you agree with", because it is apparent that everything you post has one theme...America is to blame, America is wrong, America is evil. You embrace uncritically anything that indicts American business or American foreign policy and gleefully celebrate it.

You say "the administration has done great damage to this country." Really? Is this what you're talking about:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBz00LS
YOU and your crapservative contingent here claim that WMDs were NOT the real reason we went to Iraq, and that it was to "spread democracy" and all that other baloney.
Because if it is, I'll agree with you...the Bush administration has indeed damaged this country by "spreading democracy and all that other baloney," bringing hope to others and greater security at home. And I'll welcome some more of that "damage."



Posted by: fossten

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB3
Here's a news flash for you...Your articles are dismissed not only because of the source, but because they are a) provably factually incorrect, or b) contain no facts, only rumor, innuendo, and opinion. The source is cited primarily because your sources in the past have time and again been fact challenged or attempted to pass off opinion as fact.

The articles posted in response to you contain actual facts, and are further supported by the logical arguments of the poster. Your arguments consist primarily of calling everyone else names.

I find it fascinating that you post "articles of interest and op-eds you agree with", because it is apparent that everything you post has one theme...America is to blame, America is wrong, America is evil. You embrace uncritically anything that indicts American business or American foreign policy and gleefully celebrate it.

You say "the administration has done great damage to this country." Really? Is this what you're talking about:



Because if it is, I'll agree with you...the Bush administration has indeed damaged this country by "spreading democracy and all that other baloney," bringing hope to others and greater security at home. And I'll welcome some more of that "damage."


The real damage is being done to the liberal agenda of this country, which will hopefully repair the damage that the liberal agenda has actually done to this country.



Posted by: fossten

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97silverlsc
No matter what the source of articles I post, you, bryan and calabrio will dismiss them because of that source. You all respond with articles from your own sources and view them as gospel. What is the point in discussing anything with a group who think that they have "won" the discussion by repeating over and over that my posts are invalid because of the source? I post articles of interest and op-eds that I agree with. I see no point in discussing with you the merits of those posts because you think that saying the source is invalid or verbally "bullying" posters creates a "win" for you. The way I see it, this administration has done great damage to this country. You can't or won't. I will continue to post articles and op-eds I find interesting as I know there are others who find them of interest as well. Don't like it? Don't read them and don't respond to them.
How about your OWN source, the New York Times???

N.Y. Times, Get Your N.S.A. Stories Straight
Posted by Mithridate Ombud on December 20, 2005 - 13:32.

Dear journalists of the New York Times,
Perhaps you'd like to take a few moments to gather yourselves and figure out which of your stories are correct and which stories are politically motivated fabrications of the truth.


COURT SAYS U.S. SPY AGENCY CAN TAP OVERSEAS MESSAGES
By DAVID BURNHAM, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES (NYT) 1051 words Published: November 7, 1982

A Federal appeals court has ruled that the National Security Agency may lawfully intercept messages between United States citizens and people overseas, even if there is no cause to believe the Americans are foreign agents, and then provide summaries of these messages to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Because the National Security Agency is among the largest and most secretive intelligence agencies and because millions of electronic messages enter and leave the United States each day, lawyers familiar with the intelligence agency consider the decision to mark a significant increase in the legal authority of the Government to keep track of its citizens.

Reverses 1979 Ruling

The Oct. 21 decision of the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit involves the Government's surveillance of a Michiganborn lawyer, Abdeen Jabara, who for many years has represented Arab-American citizens and alien residents in court. Some of his clients had been investigated by the F.B.I.

Mr. Jabara sued the F.B.I, and the National Security Agency, and in 1979 Federal District Judge Ralph M. Freeman ruled that the agency's acquisition of several of Mr. Jabara's overseas messages violated his Fourth Amendment right to be free of ''unreasonable searches and seizures.'' Last month's decision reverses that ruling.

In earlier court proceedings, the F.B.I. acknowledged that it then disseminated the information to 17 other law-enforcement or intelligence agencies and three foreign governments.

The opinion of the three-judge panel of the Court of Appeals held, ''The simple fact remains that the N.S.A. lawfully acquired Jabara's messages.''

The court ruled further that the lawyer's Fourth Amendment rights ''were not violated when summaries of his overseas telegraphic messages'' were furnished to the investigative bureau ''irrespective of whether there was reasonable cause to believe that he was a foreign agent.''



Boy Phil, if I were you I'd be really tired of being



Posted by: 97silverlsc

Quote:
Originally Posted by fossten
How about your OWN source, the New York Times???

N.Y. Times, Get Your N.S.A. Stories Straight
Posted by Mithridate Ombud on December 20, 2005 - 13:32.

Dear journalists of the New York Times,
Perhaps you'd like to take a few moments to gather yourselves and figure out which of your stories are correct and which stories are politically motivated fabrications of the truth.


COURT SAYS U.S. SPY AGENCY CAN TAP OVERSEAS MESSAGES
By DAVID BURNHAM, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES (NYT) 1051 words Published: November 7, 1982

A Federal appeals court has ruled that the National Security Agency may lawfully intercept messages between United States citizens and people overseas, even if there is no cause to believe the Americans are foreign agents, and then provide summaries of these messages to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Because the National Security Agency is among the largest and most secretive intelligence agencies and because millions of electronic messages enter and leave the United States each day, lawyers familiar with the intelligence agency consider the decision to mark a significant increase in the legal authority of the Government to keep track of its citizens.

Reverses 1979 Ruling

The Oct. 21 decision of the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit involves the Government's surveillance of a Michiganborn lawyer, Abdeen Jabara, who for many years has represented Arab-American citizens and alien residents in court. Some of his clients had been investigated by the F.B.I.

Mr. Jabara sued the F.B.I, and the National Security Agency, and in 1979 Federal District Judge Ralph M. Freeman ruled that the agency's acquisition of several of Mr. Jabara's overseas messages violated his Fourth Amendment right to be free of ''unreasonable searches and seizures.'' Last month's decision reverses that ruling.

In earlier court proceedings, the F.B.I. acknowledged that it then disseminated the information to 17 other law-enforcement or intelligence agencies and three foreign governments.

The opinion of the three-judge panel of the Court of Appeals held, ''The simple fact remains that the N.S.A. lawfully acquired Jabara's messages.''

The court ruled further that the lawyer's Fourth Amendment rights ''were not violated when summaries of his overseas telegraphic messages'' were furnished to the investigative bureau ''irrespective of whether there was reasonable cause to believe that he was a foreign agent.''



Boy Phil, if I were you I'd be really tired of being
YES, By the FISA act they are allowed to tap calls as long as one end of the call originates or terminates in a foreign country. The issue is that they did not follow procedure by getting the warrant to do so. They are allowed to initiate the taps immediately as long as they apply for a warrant within 72 hours of doing so. They DIDN'T do that. It is also coming out that some of the calls tapped were domestic in origin and termination. Try and sweep it all you want, It's still violation of the law by an administration that thinks it's above the law and can do whatever it wants. All your name calling won't change that fact, it just highlights how small your minds really are.




Posted by: 97silverlsc

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB3
Here's a news flash for you...Your articles are dismissed not only because of the source, but because they are a) provably factually incorrect, or b) contain no facts, only rumor, innuendo, and opinion. The source is cited primarily because your sources in the past have time and again been fact challenged or attempted to pass off opinion as fact.

The articles posted in response to you contain actual facts, and are further supported by the logical arguments of the poster.
In Summary, The Repug method of addressing a post is:
A: YOUR articles are wrong because they make (Choose one) Me, My Guy, My Party look bad, so your sources must be spreading lies and rumors.

B: My articles are always right because they come from: Fox News, Drudge or some other site of my choosing that I have decided is infallible.

C:And just to help prove the point, highlight all posts with personal attacks and sarcasm, questioning your intelligence and calling you names.

Think that about covers the techniques I've seen here. Problem is, doesn't make your case any stronger, only makes you seem more insecure.



Posted by: RB3

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97silverlsc
In Summary, The Repug method of addressing a post is:
A: YOUR articles are wrong because they make (Choose one) Me, My Guy, My Party look bad, so your sources must be spreading lies and rumors.
No, they're wrong because they're spreading lies and rumors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97silverlsc
B: My articles are always right because they come from: Fox News, Drudge or some other site of my choosing that I have decided is infallible.
No, they're right because they're fact checked and supported with reason and logic by the poster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97silverlsc
C:And just to help prove the point, highlight all posts with personal attacks and sarcasm, questioning your intelligence and calling you names.
And, of course, you never employ name calling or sarcasm when addressing those Repugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97silverlsc
Think that about covers the techniques I've seen here. Problem is, doesn't make your case any stronger, only makes you seem more insecure.
I agree, you've covered all your techniques.



Posted by: ToddG

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB3
Here's a news flash for you...Your articles are dismissed not only because of the source, but because they are a) provably factually incorrect, or b) contain no facts, only rumor, innuendo, and opinion. The source is cited primarily because your sources in the past have time and again been fact challenged or attempted to pass off opinion as fact.

The articles posted in response to you contain actual facts, and are further supported by the logical arguments of the poster. Your arguments consist primarily of calling everyone else names.

I find it fascinating that you post "articles of interest and op-eds you agree with", because it is apparent that everything you post has one theme...America is to blame, America is wrong, America is evil. You embrace uncritically anything that indicts American business or American foreign policy and gleefully celebrate it.

You say "the administration has done great damage to this country." Really? Is this what you're talking about:



Because if it is, I'll agree with you...the Bush administration has indeed damaged this country by "spreading democracy and all that other baloney," bringing hope to others and greater security at home. And I'll welcome some more of that "damage."
Wow, RB, you could fill in for Limbaugh -- seriously! That's excellent, well done!



Posted by: fossten

All the President's Spies
By Jed Babbin

Published 12/19/2005 12:09:32 AM


There are politically motivated criminals in our government who should be unmasked and punished to the fullest extent of the law. These people have leaked some of our most sensitive secrets and damaged our national security for no reason other than to discredit President Bush. Forget the Plame nonsense. That -- according to a CIA assessment -- caused no damage at all. No, I'm talking about the leaks of the secret CIA detention facilities in Europe and elsewhere where terrorist detainees are kept. I'm talking about the leak of a top-secret satellite program, apparently by three U.S. senators. And I'm talking about last week's New York Times report about the NSA's domestic intelligence gathering effort that's paying off handsomely. Or was, until the leakers told the Times.
Friday, in a report that the White House asked not be published because it could jeopardize ongoing anti-terrorist operations, the Times revealed that in 2001 the president authorized the National Security Agency to collect intelligence from conversations routed through the United States and possibly including people within the United States. And the media feeding frenzy aimed at declaring George W. Bush a criminal started all over again.

It's pretty clear that NSA's domestic intelligence gathering was -- and is -- legal. But before we get to that, we have to set the context for this debate correctly, which is more than the Times, the Washington Post, or any of the other politico-media will do. We need only two data points to accomplish that.

[b]First, the last time a war was fought on American soil, the president then didn't merely authorize intelligence gathering within our borders, he suspended the writ of habeas corpus for anyone held in military custody [/B](even though we didn't yet have a base at Gitmo), and declared that anyone opposing the war would be tried and punished under martial law in military courts. Thank heaven that George Bush isn't as radical as Abraham Lincoln was when he signed that proclamation in September 1862. Or as radical as FDR was in interning Japanese citizens in World War II.

Second, the price of inaction in the war against terrorists is too high. We know, from Mansour Ijaz's accounts and from the admissions Clinton national security adviser Sandy Berger has made in several interviews, that the Clinton administration turned down Sudan's repeated 1996 offers of bin Laden on a silver platter because its lawyers didn't believe we had enough evidence to indict him in a U.S. court. Instead of telling the lawyers to find a way to put OBL out of business, the Clintons took the easy way out their lawyers had provided and let bin Laden get away. Now, we have a president who apparently tells his lawyers what Andrew Carnegie once told his.

In what may be an apocryphal story, 19th century industrial baron Carnegie, in a long meeting with his planning staff, endured a few "you can't do that" objections from a new lawyer. Carnegie took the young man into the hall and fed him a dose of reality: "Young man, I don't pay you to tell me what I can't do. I pay you to tell me how I can do what I want to do." And that sums up President Bush's approach to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

FISA requires that intelligence gathering regarding conversations to which "U.S. persons" are a party can only be done pursuant to a search warrant issued (usually in secret) by the special FISA court, made up of sitting U.S. district court judges and located in the Department of Justice building in Washington.

Second, the FISA court issues warrants based on findings of probable cause, like other U.S. courts issuing criminal search warrants. There are too many situations -- like the one we were in before 9-11 -- in which too many possible terrorists are talking to each other and their helpers to sort them out one by one and get individual warrants. Which is why the law, and the regulations that implement it, allow the Attorney General to bypass the FISA court.

The regulations implementing FISA clarify the law's exceptions to the requirements for a FISA court warrant. U.S. Signals Intelligence Directive, dated July 27, 1993, is the primary regulation governing NSA's operations. It is a secret document. (We at TAS, unlike the NYT, never, ever, disclose government secrets that may damage national security. What follows is taken from a declassified version obtained from an open source.)

Under Section 4 of USSID 18, communications which are known to be to or from U.S. persons can't be intentionally intercepted without: (a) the approval of the FISA court is obtained; OR (b) the approval of the Attorney General of the United States with respect to "communications to or from U.S. PERSONS outside the United States...international communications" and other categories of communications including for the purpose of collecting "significant foreign intelligence information."

USSID 18 goes on to allow NSA to gather intelligence about a U.S. person outside the United States even without Attorney General sanction in emergencies "when securing the approval of the Attorney General is not practical because...the time required to obtain such approval would result in the loss of significant foreign intelligence and would cause substantial harm to national security."

So FISA itself and USSID 18 provide a lot of swinging room for what the president ordered. If the people subjected to the intelligence gathering weren't "U.S. persons," if Attorney General Gonzales made certain findings (which he did, according to several accounts) and if the NSA went ahead because it reasonably believed it would lose significant foreign intelligence if it held its hand, the operation is legal. Period. Everyone who is ranting and raving about illegality has neither the facts (most of which we don't know) or the law and regulations (which weigh heavily in favor of legality) on their side.

In his Saturday radio address, the president said that the NSA program he authorized has been reviewed over and over, and reauthorized by him more than three dozen times:

The activities I authorized are reviewed approximately every 45 days. Each review is based on a fresh intelligence assessment of terrorist threats to the continuity of our government and the threat of catastrophic damage to our homeland. During each assessment, previous activities under the authorization are reviewed. The review includes approval by our nation's top legal officials, including the Attorney General and the Counsel to the President. I have reauthorized this program more than 30 times since the September the 11th attacks, and I intend to do so for as long as our nation faces a continuing threat from al Qaeda and related groups.



Illegal? I don't think so. A good idea? No, a great idea. Many of the congressional Dems whining the loudest about the president breaking the law (such as Sen. Carl Levin, ranking Dem on the Armed Services Committee) were almost certainly among those who were briefed repeatedly on the program since it began in 2001. In short, the Dems' objections are as hollow as the people shouting them to the television cameras. Let Congress ask its questions, and answer some as well. (Such as why weren't they concerned about this when they were briefed on it four years ago?) But let the intelligence be gathered.

America has lived in the shadow of 9-11 for more than four years. Everyone expects more terrorist attacks on our shores, but none has yet occurred. One reason for that is probably the NSA domestic intelligence gathering program.

We can do a lot, and must do it all. Spying on aliens and some "U.S. persons" here in accordance with the law, asking our allies to spy on Americans overseas, sharing intelligence gathered abroad with law enforcement authorities here, and much more. Our Constitution and laws set broad bounds for intelligence gathering. We should do everything within those bounds. Everything.



Posted by: fossten

December 21, 2005
Qaeda Relocates to U.S. for Spy-Free Calling
by Scott Ott


(2005-12-21) — Al Qaeda announced today it would relocate its international headquarters to an unnamed U.S. city in order to take advantage of espionage-free local, and state-to-state, phone calls.

“Al Qaeda will thrive in the land of liberty,” said an unnamed spokesman on a 30-minute pre-recorded DVD. “We’re still shopping for a primary location with great access to transportation and, Allah be praised, good public schools.”

The al Qaeda source said Democrats in Congress recommended the move after the The New York Times revealed that the National Security Administration listens in on communications between international terrorists and some U.S. residents.

The source said no matter where al Qaeda plants its U.S. headquarters, it will incorporate in tax-free Nevada.



Posted by: MonsterMark

Whenever I quote Scott Ott, one must put up the "Satire Alert" sign. Some people believe everything they read in the news.



Posted by: fossten

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterMark
Whenever I quote Scott Ott, one must put up the "Satire Alert" sign. Some people believe everything they read in the news.
Ok, no prob. BTW, your avatar rocks.



Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:
Originally Posted by fossten
Ok, no prob. BTW, your avatar rocks.
I'm just kidding. It is just that what Scott writes is what should be said about the jack the left says and does. The guy nails them time and again. Truly a gifted satirist. One of my fav sites on the net. The people that comment on his threads are pretty funny too sometimes.



Posted by: TheDude

Quote:
Originally Posted by fossten
December 21, 2005
Qaeda Relocates to U.S. for Spy-Free Calling
by Scott Ott
Let's just hope it's a RED state whenever they finally decide........



Posted by: TheDude

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddG
Wow, RB, you could fill in for Limbaugh -- seriously! That's excellent, well done!
That was just uncalled for, seriously, lay off the personal attacks, that one was just down right mean spirited.



Posted by: ToddG

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterMark
I'm just kidding. It is just that what Scott writes is what should be said about the jack the left says and does. The guy nails them time and again. Truly a gifted satirist. One of my fav sites on the net. The people that comment on his threads are pretty funny too sometimes.
Can you please post the link to his website? Thanks.



Posted by: MonsterMark

Scrappleface.com





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