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To the RIGHT SIDED people in here.

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: TheDude

Why was Clinton a terrible President? I am curious to know what you think. Please state facts whenever possible and please have more to say than 'Monica.'

Posted by: barry2952

It wasn't so much how much was spent during his administration as how it was spent. IMHO, the pork that plagues the American people now really got out of control during the Clinton administration. I don't see where the current adminstration has done anything to curb it either.

Slick Willie sure was a smooth talker, though.

Posted by: pepperman

If Clinton was able to run for office today, he would get re-elected, his personal morality aside he was not that bad a President.

Posted by: fossten

Now, I understand that you Fibs are going to cry 'Foul' when I post stuff that's been posted before, but keep in mind that DeVille hasn't taken the time to read all this stuff on other threads, and I'm being polite when I could just say 'Go do a search.'

With that said, I'll start with this:

The Clinton Legacy
The Progressive Review

This list was compiled at the end of the Clinton administration.

Our Clinton Scandal Index

RECORDS SET

- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates*
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- First president accused of rape.
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court

* According to our best information, 40 government officials were indicted or convicted in the wake of Watergate. A reader computes that there was a total of 31 Reagan era convictions, including 14 because of Iran-Contra and 16 in the Department of Housing & Urban Development scandal. 47 individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine were convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes with 33 of these occurring during the Clinton administration itself. There were in addition 61 indictments or misdemeanor charges. 14 persons were imprisoned. A key difference between the Clinton story and earlier ones was the number of criminals with whom he was associated before entering the White House.

Using a far looser standard that included resignations, David R. Simon and D. Stanley Eitzen in Elite Deviance, say that 138 appointees of the Reagan administration either resigned under an ethical cloud or were criminally indicted. Curiously Haynes Johnson uses the same figure but with a different standard in "Sleep-Walking Through History: America in the Reagan Years: "By the end of his term, 138 administration officials had been convicted, had been indicted, or had been the subject of official investigations for official misconduct and/or criminal violations. In terms of number of officials involved, the record of his administration was the worst ever."

STARR-RAY INVESTIGATION

- Number of Starr-Ray investigation convictions or guilty pleas (including one governor, one associate attorney general and two Clinton business partners): 14
- Number of Clinton Cabinet members who came under criminal investigation: 5
- Number of Reagan cabinet members who came under criminal investigation: 4
- Number of top officials jailed in the Teapot Dome Scandal: 3

CRIME STATS

- Number of individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine who have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes: 47
- Number of these convictions during Clinton's presidency: 33
- Number of indictments/misdemeanor charges: 61
- Number of congressional witnesses who have pleaded the Fifth Amendment, fled the country to avoid testifying, or (in the case of foreign witnesses) refused to be interviewed: 122

SMALTZ INVESTIGATION

- Guilty pleas and convictions obtained by Donald Smaltz in cases involving charges of bribery and fraud against former Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy and associated individuals and businesses: 15
- Acquitted or overturned cases (including Espy): 6
- Fines and penalties assessed: $11.5 million
- Amount Tyson Food paid in fines and court costs: $6 million

CLINTON MACHINE CRIMES
FOR WHICH CONVICTIONS
HAVE BEEN OBTAINED

Drug trafficking (3), racketeering, extortion, bribery (4), tax evasion, kickbacks, embezzlement (2), fraud (12), conspiracy (5), fraudulent loans, illegal gifts (1), illegal campaign contributions (5), money laundering (6), perjury, obstruction of justice.

OTHER MATTERS INVESTIGATED BY SPECIAL PROSECUTORS
AND CONGRESS, OR REPORTED IN THE MEDIA

Bank and mail fraud, violations of campaign finance laws, illegal foreign campaign funding, improper exports of sensitive technology, physical violence and threats of violence, solicitation of perjury, intimidation of witnesses, bribery of witnesses, attempted intimidation of prosecutors, perjury before congressional committees, lying in statements to federal investigators and regulatory officials, flight of witnesses, obstruction of justice, bribery of cabinet members, real estate fraud, tax fraud, drug trafficking, failure to investigate drug trafficking, bribery of state officials, use of state police for personal purposes, exchange of promotions or benefits for sexual favors, using state police to provide false court testimony, laundering of drug money through a state agency, false reports by medical examiners and others investigating suspicious deaths, the firing of the RTC and FBI director when these agencies were investigating Clinton and his associates, failure to conduct autopsies in suspicious deaths, providing jobs in return for silence by witnesses, drug abuse, improper acquisition and use of 900 FBI files, improper futures trading, murder, sexual abuse of employees, false testimony before a federal judge, shredding of documents, withholding and concealment of subpoenaed documents, fabricated charges against (and improper firing of) White House employees, inviting drug traffickers, foreign agents and participants in organized crime to the White House.

ARKANSAS ALTZHEIMER'S

Number of times that Clinton figures who testified in court or before Congress said that they didn't remember, didn't know, or something similar.

Bill Kennedy 116
Harold Ickes 148
Ricki Seidman 160
Bruce Lindsey 161
Bill Burton 191
Mark Gearan 221
Mack McLarty 233
Neil Egglseston 250
Hillary Clinton 250
John Podesta 264
Jennifer O'Connor 343
Dwight Holton 348
Patsy Thomasson 420
Jeff Eller 697

FROM THE WASHINGTON TIMES: In the portions of President Clinton's Jan. 17 deposition that have been made public in the Paula Jones case, his memory failed him 267 times. This is a list of his answers and how many times he gave each one.

I don't remember - 71
I don't know - 62
I'm not sure - 17
I have no idea - 10
I don't believe so - 9
I don't recall - 8
I don't think so - 8
I don't have any specific recollection - 6
I have no recollection - 4
Not to my knowledge - 4
I just don't remember - 4
I don't believe - 4
I have no specific recollection - 3
I might have - 3
I don't have any recollection of that - 2 I don't have a specific memory - 2
I don't have any memory of that - 2
I just can't say - 2
I have no direct knowledge of that - 2
I don't have any idea - 2
Not that I recall - 2
I don't believe I did - 2
I can't remember - 2
I can't say - 2
I do not remember doing so - 2
Not that I remember - 2
I'm not aware - 1
I honestly don't know - 1
I don't believe that I did - 1
I'm fairly sure - 1
I have no other recollection - 1
I'm not positive - 1
I certainly don't think so - 1
I don't really remember - 1
I would have no way of remembering that - 1
That's what I believe happened - 1
To my knowledge, no - 1
To the best of my knowledge - 1
To the best of my memory - 1
I honestly don't recall - 1
I honestly don't remember - 1
That's all I know - 1
I don't have an independent recollection of that - 1
I don't actually have an independent memory of that - 1
As far as I know - 1
I don't believe I ever did that - 1
That's all I know about that - 1
I'm just not sure - 1
Nothing that I remember - 1
I simply don't know - 1
I would have no idea - 1
I don't know anything about that - 1
I don't have any direct knowledge of that - 1
I just don't know - 1
I really don't know - 1
I can't deny that, I just -- I have no memory of that at all - 1

THE CLINTON LEGACY:
LONELY HONOR

Here are some of the all too rare public officials, reporters, and others who spoke truth to the dismally corrupt power of Bill and Hill Clinton's political machine -- some at risk to their careers, others at risk to their lives. A few points to note:

- Those corporatist media reporters who attempted to report the story often found themselves muzzled; some even lost their jobs. The only major dailies that consistently handled the story well were the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Times.

- Nobody on this list has gotten rich and many you may not have even heard of. Taking on the Clintons typically has not been a happy or rewarding experience. At least ten reporters have been fired, transferred off their beats, resigned, or otherwise gotten into trouble because of their work on the scandals. Whistleblowing is even less appreciated within the government. One study of whistleblowers found that 232 out of 233 them reported suffering retaliation; another study found reprisals in about 95% of cases.

- Contrary to the popular impression, the politics of those listed ranges from the left to the right, and from the ideological to the independent.

PUBLIC OFFICIALS

MIGUEL RODRIGUEZ was a prosecutor on the staff of Kenneth Starr. His attempts to uncover the truth in the Vincent Foster death case were repeatedly foiled and he was the subject of planted stories undermining his credibility and implying that he was unstable. Rodriguez eventually resigned.

JEAN DUFFEY: Head of a joint federal-county drug task force in Arkansas. Her first instructions from her boss: "Jean, you are not to use the drug task force to investigate any public official." Duffey's work, however, led deep into the heart of the Dixie Mafia, including members of the Clinton machine and the investigation of the so-called "train deaths." Ambrose Evans-Pritchard reports that when she produced a star witness who could testify to Clinton's involvement with cocaine, the local prosecuting attorney, Dan Harmon issued a subpoena for all the task force records, including "the incriminating files on his own activities. If Duffey had complied it would have exposed 30 witnesses and her confidential informants to violent retributions. She refused." Harmon issued a warrant for her arrest and friendly cops told her that there was a $50,000 price on her head. She eventually fled to Texas. The once-untouchable Harmon was later convicted of racketeering, extortion and drug dealing.

BILL DUNCAN: An IRS investigator in Arkansas who drafted some 30 federal indictments of Arkansas figures on money laundering and other charges. Clinton biographer Roger Morris quotes a source who reviewed the evidence: "Those indictments were a real slam dunk if there ever was one." The cases were suppressed, many in the name of "national security." Duncan was never called to testify. Other IRS agents and state police disavowed Duncan and turned on him. Said one source, "Somebody outside ordered it shut down and the walls went up."

RUSSELL WELCH: An Arkansas state police detective working with Duncan. Welch developed a 35-volume, 3,000 page archive on drug and money laundering operations at Mena. His investigation was so compromised that a high state police official even let one of the targets of the probe look through the file. At one point, Welch was sprayed in the face with poison, later identified by the Center for Disease Control as anthrax. He would write in his diary, "I feel like I live in Russia, waiting for the secret police to pounce down. A government has gotten out of control. Men find themselves in positions of power and suddenly crimes become legal." Welch is no longer with the state police.

DAN SMALTZ: Smaltz did an outstanding job investigating and prosecuting charges involving illegal payoffs to Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy, yet was treated with disparaging and highly inaccurate reporting by the likes of the David Broder and the NY Times. Espy was acquitted under a law that made it necessary to not only prove that he accepted gratuities but that he did something specific in return. On the other hand, Tyson Foods copped a plea in the same case, paying $6 million in fines and serving four years' probation. The charge: that Tyson had illegally offered Espy $12,000 in airplane rides, football tickets and other payoffs. In the Espy investigation, Smaltz obtained 15 convictions and collected over $11 million in fines and civil penalties. Offenses for which convictions were obtained included false statements, concealing money from prohibited sources, illegal gratuities, illegal contributions, falsifying records, interstate transportation of stolen property, money laundering, and illegal receipt of USDA subsidies. Incidentally, Janet Reno blocked Smaltz from pursuing leads aimed at allegations of major drug trafficking in Arkansas and payoffs to the then governor of the state, WJ Clinton. Espy had become Ag secretary only after being flown to Arkansas to get the approval of chicken king Don Tyson.

DAVID SCHIPPERS was House impeachment counsel and a Chicago Democrat. He did a highly creditable job but since he didn't fit the right-wing conspiracy theory, the Clintonista media downplayed his work. Thus most Americans don't know that he told NewsMax, "Let me tell you, if we had a chance to put on a case, I would have put live witnesses before the committee. But the House leadership, and I'm not talking about Henry Hyde, they just killed us as far as time was concerned. I begged them to let me take it into this year. Then I screamed for witnesses before the Senate. But there was nothing anybody could do to get those Senators to show any courage. They told us essentially, you're not going to get 67 votes so why are you wasting our time." Schippers also said that while a number of representatives looked at additional evidence kept under seal in a nearby House building, not a single senator did.

JOHN CLARKE: When Patrick Knowlton stopped to relieve himself in Ft. Marcy Park 70 minutes before the discovery of Vince Foster's body, he saw things that got him into deep trouble. His interview statements were falsified and prior to testifying he claims he was overtly harassed by more than a score of men in a classic witness intimidation technique. In some cases there were witnesses. John Clarke has been his dogged lawyer in the witness intimidation case that has been largely ignored by the media, even when the three-judge panel overseeing the Starr investigation permitted Knowlton to append a 20 page addendum to the Starr Report.

OTHER

THE ARKANSAS COMMITTEE: What would later be known as the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy actually began on the left - as a group of progressive students at the University of Arkansas had formed the Arkansas Committee to look into Mena, drugs, money laundering, and Arkansas politics. This committee was the source of some of the important early Clinton stories including those published in the Progressive Review.

CLINTON ADMINISTRATION SCANDALS E-LIST: Moderated by Ray Heizer, this list has been subject to all the idiosyncrasies of Internet bulletin boards, but it has nonetheless proved invaluable to researchers and journalists.

JOURNALISTS

JERRY SEPER of the Washington Times was far and away the best beat reporter of the story, handling it week after week in the best tradition of investigative journalism. If other reporters had followed Seper's lead, the history of the Clintons' machine might have been quite different.

AMBROSE EVANS-PRITCHARD of the London Telegraph did a remarkable job of digging into some of the seamiest tales from Arkansas and the Clinton past. Other early arrivals on the scene were Alexander Cockburn and Jeff Gerth.

CHRISTOPHER RUDDY, among other fine reports on the Clinton scandals, did the best job laying out the facts in the Vince Foster death case.

ROGER MORRIS AND SALLY DENTON wrote a major expose of events at Mena, but at the last moment the Washington Post's brass ordered the story killed. It was published by Penthouse and later included in Morris' "Partners in Power," the best biography of the Clintons.

OTHERS who helped get parts of the story out included reporters Philip Weiss, Carl Limbacher, Wes Phelan, David Bresnahan, William Sammon, Liza Myers, Mara Leveritt, Matt Drudge, Jim Ridgeway, Nat Hentoff, Michael Isikoff, Christopher Hitchens, and Michael Kelly. Also independent investigator Hugh Sprunt and former White House FBI agent Gary Aldrich.

SAM SMITH of the Progressive Review wrote the first book (Shadows of Hope, University of Indiana Press, 1994) deconstructing the Clinton myth and the Review developed a major database on the topic.

The Clintons, to adapt a line from Dr. Johnson, were not only corrupt, they were the cause of corruption in others. Seldom in America have so many come to excuse so much mendacity and malfeasance as during the Clinton years. These rare exceptions cited above, and others unmentioned, deserve our deep thanks.

THE CLINTON LEGACY
The Hidden Election

USA Today calls it "the hidden election," in which nearly 7,000 state legislative seats are decided with only minimal media and public attention. The paper took brief notice because this is the year the state legislatures perform their most important national function: drawing revised congressional districts based on the most recent census.

But there's another important national story here: further evidence of the disaster that Bill Clinton has been for the Democratic Party. According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, Democrats held a 1,542 seat lead in the state bodies in 1990. As of last November that lead had shrunk to 288. That's a loss of over 1,200 state legislative seats, nearly all of them under Clinton. Across the US, the Democrats control only 65 more state senate seats than the Republicans.

Further, in 1992, the Democrats controlled 17 more state legislatures than the Republicans. After November, the Republicans control one more than the Democrats. Not only is this a loss of 9 legislatures under Clinton, but it is the first time since 1954 that the GOP has controlled more state legislatures than the Democrats (they tied in 1968).

Here's what happened to the Democrats under Clinton, based on our latest figures:

- GOP seats gained in House since Clinton became president: 48
- GOP seats gained in Senate since Clinton became president: 8
- GOP governorships gained since Clinton became president: 11
- GOP state legislative seats gained since Clinton became president: 1,254
as of 1998
- State legislatures taken over by GOP since Clinton became president: 9
- Democrat officeholders who have become Republicans since Clinton became
president: 439 as of 1998
- Republican officeholders who have become Democrats since Clinton became president: 3

Posted by: fossten

Probably the most damaging thing Clinton did to this country was put China's knife within reach of our throats.

Clinton and Chinese Missiles

Charles R. Smith
Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2003

Chinese Army Gets U.S. Missile Technology for Money

A newly released document from the U.S. State Department reveals that the most successful Chinese espionage operation in recent history occurred during the Clinton administration.

The document accuses Hughes Space and Communications Company of violating U.S. national security 123 times by knowingly sending detailed missile and space technology directly to the Chinese army.

According to the State Department, the most serious violations occurred when Hughes gave the Chinese army information that supported its analyses of the investigation of the January 1995 failure of the launch of a China Long March 2E (LM-2E) rocket carrying the Hughes-manufactured ASTAR II commercial communications satellite.

On Jan. 26, 1995, approximately 52 seconds into flight, a Chinese LM-2E carrying the Hughes APSTAR II communications satellite failed. This was the LM-2E's second failure. The first failure of the LM-2E in December 1992 involved an attempted launch of the Hughes OPTUS B-2 commercial communications satellite.

"Respondents decided to form and direct a launch failure investigation beginning in January 1995 and continuing throughout much of that year. The investigation involved the formation of several groups of leading technical experts from China and the U.S., which throughout the investigation engaged in an extensive exchange of technical data and analysis, producing a wide range of unauthorized technology transfers," noted the State Department charge document.

"At no time did the Respondents seek or receive a license or other written approval concerning the conduct of their APSTAR II failure investigation with PRC authorities," states the charge document.

According to the State Department, "this strategy was further influenced by Respondents' business interests in securing future contracts with the PRC and with Asian satellite companies in which PRC influence figured prominently, and concern that U.S. Government policy constraints on technology transfer as administered by ODTC were an impediment to achieving these interests."

Chinese Rocket Failure Blamed on U.S.

According to a 1998 Defense Department investigation, the reason for Hughes passing the technical information to China was because the Chinese army blamed Hughes for the rocket failure.

"Following the APSTAR II failure, there was disagreement between Hughes and the Chinese about whether the principal cause of the failure was the launch vehicle or the satellite. The subsequent joint Hughes-Chinese failure investigation was apparently intended, at least in part, to resolve this dispute," states the 1998 Defense Department report.

"According to the Hughes/Apstar materials, the disagreement between Hughes and the Chinese focused on two views of the cause of the launch failure: (1) the Chinese claim that the satellite was defective as evidenced by satellite fuel igniting; and (2) Hughes' claim that the satellite was a contributing factor only after the launch vehicle fairing had failed which exposed the satellite to catastrophic conditions."

"DoD believes that the scope and content of the launch failure investigation conducted by Hughes with the Chinese following the January 1995 APSTAR II failure raises national security concerns both with regard to violating those standards and to potentially contributing to China's missile capabilities," states the Defense Department report.

PLA General Shen Rongjun

Chinese General Shen Rongjun led the penetration of U.S. missile and space technology during the Clinton administration. The 2002 State Department letter makes it clear that they believe Gen. Shen led the successful penetration of the Clinton administration and Hughes.

In 1994, Gen. Shen was second in command of a Chinese army unit known as COSTIND, or the Commission On Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense. Shen, and his COSTIND operatives in front companies, secured a wide range of advanced missile and space technology from Hughes after a 1994 meeting with Commerce Secretary Ron Brown.

Commerce documents obtained using the Freedom of Information Act show that Brown met with Gen. Shen in 1994 during a trade trip to Beijing. President Clinton personally authorized the meeting between the Chinese general and Brown.

Before moving to Commerce, Brown headed the Democratic National Committee. The Federal Election Commission fined the DNC in 2002 for "knowingly and willingly" accepting donations from Chinese army sources.

Gen. Shen did obtain help from the White House by pressuring Hughes with satellite contracts. Hughes CEO Michael Armstrong wrote President Clinton in 1993 threatening to pull support for Clinton if he did not allow the space technology transfers to China. In 1994, Clinton approved a waiver for Hughes to transfer advanced satellite encryption systems to China.

According to a Sept. 20, 1995, memorandum, Hughes regarded Gen. Shen Rongjun as "the most important Chinese space official."

The Chinese army penetration of Hughes was so successful that Gen. Shen managed to get his son, Shen Jun, a job at Hughes as the lead software engineer for all Chinese satellites. According to Hughes, Shen Jun had access to "proprietary" satellite source code.

"On July 9, 1996, Respondents submitted a munitions export license application to ODTC seeking authorization for one of its employees, Shen Jun, described as a dual Canadian Chinese national, in order to provide Chinese-English language translation and interpretation support for the preliminary design phase of the APMT satellite project," states the 2002 charge letter.

"In no place in that submission nor otherwise did HUGHES SPACE AND COMMUNICATIONS COMPANY inform ODTC that this individual was, in fact, the son of PLA General and COSTIND Deputy Director Shen Rongjun, which fact was material to the U.S. Government's consideration of whether the license application should be approved or denied."

"The record indicates that Shen Jun's role for Respondents went well beyond that of an interpreter/translator and more closely resembled that of an intermediary with his father, General Shen, and other PRC space authorities, in order to cultivate their support in various matters of interest to Hughes, including the handling of the APSTAR II launch failure investigation and the APMT contract," noted the State Department 2002 charge letter.

According to the State Department, Hughes contends that it followed the law with regard to hiring Gen. Shen's son.

"Respondents have maintained as of December 3, 2002, that this information was not material and that its omission was proper because there is no place in the munitions license application for them to disclose father-son relationships between General officers at the People's Liberation Army who are overseeing a project they are working on and their foreign national employees working in U.S. facilities on the same project."

Clinton Overrules Secretary of State

The alleged improper export by Hughes of satellite technology was cited as a key reason when Clinton's secretary of state, Warren Christopher, rejected a plan to give the Commerce Department full authority to control satellite exports.

According to a Sept. 22, 1995, memorandum, Christopher rejected plans to give Commerce the authority to approve satellite exports after an interagency study noted that "significant" military and intelligence capabilities could be lost.

The memorandum stated the Pentagon and U.S. intelligence agencies strongly opposed the policy change because Hughes exported two satellites with sensitive cryptographic technology without first getting a State Department munitions license. Cryptographic technology is used to scramble communications sent to satellites to prevent unauthorized access.

President Clinton, who transferred the power to regulate sensitive satellites to Commerce, under Commerce Secretary Ron Brown, ultimately overruled Christopher.

Clinton's transfer allowed the Chinese army to acquire advanced U.S. technology for military purposes. Hughes satellites currently provide the Chinese army with secure communications that are invulnerable to earth combat and highly accurate all-weather navigation for strike bombers and missiles.

Hughes satellites purchased by Shen also provide direct TV and cable TV broadcasts to most of Asia. Thus, cable and pay-per-view services help pay for the Chinese army satellite communications. The brilliant planning and logistics mean that Chinese military communications pay for themselves.

Clinton Legacy – A New Arms Race

The satellite and missile technology obtained from Hughes by the Chinese army is critical for the design and manufacture of missile nose cones and electronic missile control systems. The technology clearly helped the Chinese army field a new generation of ICBMS, including the Dong Feng 31 missile, which can drop three nuclear warheads on any city in the U.S.
The success of Shen is a story of missiles, politics and greed. Gen. Shen succeeded in using Hughes and President Clinton as valuable tools to obtain weapons that are now pointed at the United States.

China won and the U.S. lost what may very well be the first round of World War III. Gen. Shen led that victory and he did it with a checkbook. The Clinton legacy for the 21st century is a new arms race.

Posted by: fossten

Come on in, guys, there's plenty for everybody!!!

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

Come on in, guys, there's plenty for everybody!!!

The China one was extemely amusing. I just gotta ask, are we going into China next? In your personal opinion should we? Since they are within reach of our throats as you say.

Posted by: eL eS

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

The China one was extemely amusing. I just gotta ask, are we going into China next? In your personal opinion should we? Since they are within reach of our throats as you say.

I think the rank and file citizens will take care of the Chinese government. The goverment is finding it very difficult to prevent the torrents of outside information sources and underground information movements there. The people are becoming self aware and slowly but surely will seek out democracy.

We can reshape china with good ol capitalism.

Posted by: MonsterMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by eL eS

I think the rank and file citizens will take care of the Iraqi government. The goverment is finding it very difficult to prevent the torrents of outside information sources and underground information movements there. The people are becoming self aware and slowly but surely will seek out democracy.

We can reshape iraq with good ol capitalism.

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

We can reshape iraq with good ol capitalism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eL eS

We can reshape china with good ol capitalism.

Because this is the only correct way of doing things? Also, is it our God given right to impose on others?

Posted by: eL eS

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

Because this is the only correct way of doing things? Also, is it our God given right to impose on others?

So you think we imposed ourselves on Saddam or the Taliban and AQ? Aren't downtrodden people worth saving or do we just save the criminals and sacrifice everyone else.

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by eL eS

So you think we imposed ourselves on Saddam or the Taliban and AQ? Aren't downtrodden people worth saving or do we just save the criminals and sacrifice everyone else.

Saddam did need to be imposed on, that wasnt the issue, the issue is imposing our beliefs on the people of Iraq or the world for that matter. Downtrodden people are worth saving, definately. But I ask you this, there are downtrodden people all other the world, take Africa for example, why aren't we there stopping the mass genocides that pop up there like achne on a teen during puberty.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

Oh, you must be talking about the Rwanda massacre of 800,000 people - oh, wait a minute - that was on Clinton's watch! What did he - or the UN - do? Zippo!

Posted by: raVeneyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

Oh, you must be talking about the Rwanda massacre of 800,000 people - oh, wait a minute - that was on Clinton's watch! What did he - or the UN - do? Zippo!

And the Republican lead congress of the time? What did they do? I don't seem to remember a filibustering debate that called the president to take action....

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by raVeneyes

And the Republican lead congress of the time? What did they do? I don't seem to remember a filibustering debate that called the president to take action....

Thank you.

Fossten, my point about this was not to lay blame on republican or democrate for doing nothing, just dispell the smokescreen (one of many) that the Bush cabinet spews about why we are in Iraq.

Posted by: barry2952

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterMark

Bryan,

I hate to refute anything that you say but todays Free Press had a rather lengthy article on the suicide rate in China. They seem to not agree with your assessment. China used to have a pretty near zero suicide rate. Now they are dealing with an epidemic of 250,000 suicides annually, and it's getting worse.

Their social scientists attribute the massive increase to Capitolism. As China moves from a Communist economy to one that is market driven, many people have lost their government jobs and are despondent. The elderly oft themselves at an alarming rate as they feel themselves shamed for being a financial burden on their families. Their suicide rate for teenagers is comparable to ours but the age group 20-39 has the highest rate. Those that don't have the skills to compete often kill themselves in grizzly ways. The drive to have material things is a huge problem for their society.

Since there are virtually no weapons in the Chinese publics hands they like to leap off tall buildings with a single bound..... Imagine getting splattered by a falling body on your walk to work. It happens every day.

The smog is so bad there that you can't see the tops of high rise buildings. It literally rains people.

The problem, as they see it is that the speed of the onslaught of Capitolism is the culprit. It should be a lesson on what we're doing in Iraq and Afghanastan.

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

Now, I understand that you Fibs are going to cry 'Foul' when I post stuff that's been posted before, but keep in mind that DeVille hasn't taken the time to read all this stuff on other threads, and I'm being polite when I could just say 'Go do a search.'

With that said, I'll start with this:

The Clinton Legacy
The Progressive Review

I'm curious to see what Bush's Legacy will be once he is out of office. Just gonna have to wait I guess.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry2952

You sound like a socialist/communist advocate, or at least an anti-capitalist.

Your cause and effect argument has many logical flaws and assumes there is no other cause for the suicide rate except capitalism. In fact, the logic of your treatise implodes upon itself. The elderly of the Chinese culture are supposed to be revered, but now they are a burden, and that goes against their culture, which can be seen as a fatal flaw in the culture, not the principle of capitalism. What we're witnessing is a clash of values, and people making independent decisions based upon what they believe their culture calls for. If anything, this is a clear example of the evils of godless Communism and how it can tear apart a nation.

Have you ever known anyone who contemplated suicide? I do, and I can tell you that the prevailing core reason is 'no reason to keep on living', which is built into people who live in an oppressive, atheist society.

Do you really think that China is becoming more capitalistic because they fall for our 'capitalist propaganda' or some such crap? No way. They have no other choice. They were going bankrupt thanks to communism. Those government jobs were obviously going to go away no matter what, since they were running out of money to pay them.

Look at the Communist nations: The North Koreans are starving to death collectively, as are the Cubans. Fortunately for Russia, Gorbachev pulled the plug, although it remains to be seen if it was just in time or not.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that their social scientists are nothing but communist ideologues who have no clue what capitalism is all about, and are anti-American.

Need I remind you also that the Chinese population is now 49% women to 51% men, thanks to - yep, you guessed it - flawed Chinese culture and birth rate laws. If I couldn't get a girl because they were all taken, I'd probably off myself too. It's not like they can compete for Western women.

What I'm giving you here are alternative possible reasons for the suicide rate in China. I'm not asserting any of them, just laying them on the table. The article from the 'Free Press' obviously didn't consider alternative reasons, it evidently just went all op-ed on you.

Posted by: barry2952

What a jerk. All I did was report what I had read in the paper. Did you read that part.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by raVeneyes

And the Republican lead congress of the time? What did they do? I don't seem to remember a filibustering debate that called the president to take action....

You yet again show your lack of knowledge in United States Government policy and procedure. A 'filibustering debate' calling the president to take action? Hilarious! Obviously the only word you know that relates to anything Governmental is 'filibuster.'

If you knew anything about Senatorial policies and procedures you would know that filibustering is a DELAY TACTIC, not an origination tactic. By way of definition, the filibuster is a delaying tactic that is a part of the rules of the Senate. It is a word that comes from the Spanish word for "freebooter," which means "pirate." The origin seems to be that a person who filibusters is plundering the time and focus of a deliberative body, like a legislature. Specifically, in the U.S. Senate, a filibuster is used by a single Senator or group of Senators to stop or delay action on a piece of legislation. It has long been the tradition of the Senate that debate may not be stopped unless those taking up the debate allow it to be stopped. In other words, once a Senator has the floor, he or she may continue to talk forever. This rule goes back to the very beginnings of the Senate.

If you had ever read the Constitution, you would also know that it is the PRESIDENT'S job to make policy and set the agenda for the Congress and Senate (not the other way around), and that the buck is supposed to stop with him. Speaking of which:

You Fibs love to blame everything from Abu Ghraib to global warming/Kyoto Accords to Katrina on Bush, yet when REAL EVIDENCE shows Clinton's lack of leadership, you immediately blame it on the Congress of that time. How hypocritical! You Fiberals are nothing but frightened Clinton apologists who can't face the fact that the only President you've had in 30 years will go down in disgrace.

Despite the deplorable attempts by your Fib leaders' and your left-wing media's attempts to destroy President Bush, he will be remembered much more positively in history than your precious Slick Willie. Of course, that isn't saying much, since already every President we've ever had, including Nixon, is revered more even now.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry2952

What a jerk. All I did was report what I had read in the paper. Did you read that part.

barry, if anything I said sounded personal, please believe that I didn't mean it to sound that way. I am passionate about what I believe, and sometimes the written word, black on white, doesn't convey tone. If you are offended I'm sorry. I was only addressing the words you had written, not you as a person.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

Au contraire, your backtracking isn't truthful. By using the words 'smokescreen' and 'lie' and 'spews' you attempt to place blame on the Bush administration. But you accomplished nothing. You dispelled nothing. You simply made ad hominem talking-points attacks with no foundational evidence (despite my asking you TWICE where you got your information), which attacks I discredited with real facts taken from real articles over the past seven years.

Posted by: JohnnyBz00LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

I'm curious to see what Bush's Legacy will be once he is out of office. Just gonna have to wait I guess.

Oh BuSh's "legacy" has been posted around here somewhere already, and he's barely been in office 5/8ths of the time Clinton has. It makes Clinton look like a priest (no pun intended

). No doubt Clinton's "bad doings" will be overshadowed by BuSh's by a large margin, already has.

BuSh = Worst President Ever

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

I wasn’t blaming any single group for Rwanda, that’s it, nothing more was meant. Yes, I did accomplish something. The entire point of my statement was to dispel one of the reasons yourself and others that are for the Iraq war state 'We are there to help the Iraqi people from the clutches of a Madman'. So I repeat my original question, if we're there to help the down trodden Iraqi people, why have we and do we turn a blind eye to other nations in distress (i.e. Rwanda).

(Yes, I do blame the Bush Admin for the mismanagement of the war, I think I have made that clear over and over, shouldnt be an issue on how I feel.)

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

If anything, this is a clear example of the evils of godless Communism and how it can tear apart a nation.

'no reason to keep on living', which is built into people who live in an oppressive, atheist society.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that their social scientists are nothing but communist ideologues who have no clue what capitalism is all about, and are anti-American.

If I couldn't get a girl because they were all taken, I'd probably off myself too. It's not like they can compete for Western women.

What asinine things to say. You really are a jerk, I am convinced of it now.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95DevilleNS

blah blah blah...sticks and stones...blah blah blah...personal attacks...blah blah blah...

Liberal name-calling: It's fan-tastic!

Posted by: captainalias

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

Liberal name-calling: It's fan-tastic!

And you were the first to call 95DevilleNS a Communist. I guess that would make fossten a Fascist then.

Standard attack: 95DevilleNS, you godless commie. Why do you hate America?

Posted by: barry2952

In fact, it was my name sullied by David's rant. Also, in fact, he did apoligize for it coming off as a personal attack. Whether his apology is real or not remains to be seen. When he doesn't spew his form of hate he's a very articulate debater.

I also respect some of the new talent on the board. On both sides. Less personal would be better.

Posted by: fossten

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainalias

And you were the first to call 95DevilleNS a Communist. I guess that would make fossten a Fascist then.

Standard attack: 95DevilleNS, you godless commie. Why do you hate America?

Ummm...WRONG. I never called anyone a communist. I might have said they sound like a communist, or their words sounded communistic, but I never said "You're a communist" - unlike DeVille, who said,

"What asinine things to say. You really are a jerk, I am convinced of it now."

Big difference. You people attack the person, I attack the issue or idea.

Once again, your attempt at equivocation fails.

Posted by: captainalias

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

"You sound like a socialist/communist advocate, or at least an anti-capitalist"

So if I said, 'you sound like a conservative jerk', I'm not really calling you a jerk, but simply saying your ideas are jerky? By saying 'HE sounds like', you are attacking the person. if you had said, 'some of those tenets are similarly shared by socialism, that would be different.'

Stop skirting the issue.

Posted by: fossten

Ignoring those who would like to make the rules to suit them, I would like to invite Bryan or Joey to delete any post of mine that they deem unfit for publication.

Beyond that, I rest my case.

Posted by: Calabrio

The only positive about the Clinton administration was inability to get anything done.

What he did on his own initiative tended to fail. But fortunately, he did very little. He was paralyzed by polls, a lack of political will, and later, an opposition party in the Congress. Fortunate for him, he was able to take the helm during a period of percieved calm. And, instead of acting like an ant, Clinton was the grasshopper in the old fable.

A Hillary administration will be considerably worse. I would expect her to actively attempt to advance some of the nonsense Clinton only gave lipservice too. Clinton appeared to be more of a politician, perpetuating his own status, Hillary is more ideolgoical.

Posted by: captainalias

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calabrio

The only positive about the Clinton administration was inability to get anything done.

What he did on his own initiative tended to fail. But fortunately, he did very little. He was paralyzed by polls, a lack of political will, and later, an opposition party in the Congress. Fortunate for him, he was able to take the helm during a period of percieved calm. And, instead of acting like an ant, Clinton was the grasshopper in the old fable.

A Hillary administration will be considerably worse. I would expect her to actively attempt to advance some of the nonsense Clinton only gave lipservice too. Clinton appeared to be more of a politician, perpetuating his own status, Hillary is more ideolgoical.

Hillary would be horrible, but just as bad as Bush. Hey, I voted for Bob Dole, so don't blame me.

Posted by: TheDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by fossten

Liberal name-calling: It's fan-tastic!

You're funny; you shoot the first shot then blame me for it. There are several post which proves this, I posted one that clearly showed you being 'offended by a personal attack' from JohnnyBz00LS then you turn around and do it to me in basically the exact same manor. But it's ok, I understand. No worries.

Conservative hypocrisy: It's Fantastic!

Posted by: daves2000ls

Despite the deplorable attempts by your Fib leaders' and your left-wing media's attempts to destroy President Bush, he will be remembered much more positively in history than your precious Slick Willie. Of course, that isn't saying much, since already every President we've ever had, including Nixon, is revered more even now.

[/quote]
are you forgetting that nixon is the only president to resign? ass.