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Jag supercharger for jag engine?

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Posted by: hoss1324

I've had my 01 Ls for about 2 weeks and lovin it, which leads me to my point. I want it faster, i've looked at i think all the post on prototyping superchargers and turbos. Not sure if some one out there has found the answer so i figured to throw in my two cents. the AJ35 engine is a smaller boar version of the AJ series of blocks, therefore i think that the mounting and space conderations for a existing super charger on AJ34S a 4.0 L super chargered engine already in production. Just cant find the exact blueprinting or demensions for this supercharger mounting and deck hight. Could anyone with information give a few pokes

Posted by: Quik LS

the s-type R uses the same block as our 3.9L but that were it ends.

the heads, all the interals, PCM, wiring, .... all different.

If you wanted to swap engines - the most practical would be going the route of the OLOA LS and drop in a 4.6 SC mustang engine - at least your aftermarket opportunities would be vastly broadened.

The biggest issue an engine swap has is running two different engine control computers - one for the engine - the other for the car (gauges, FEM, REM,...). The OLOA LS was nice as a race car but not really a daily driver.

Posted by: 2001LS8Sport

Quik is correct...far and away the cheapest way would be to go with an 03/04 Cobra engine. But that presents some packaging issues. Since I haven't done that swap, I don't know what's all involved. But what I do know for sure is the main reason (not the only reason) the 3.9 was used over the 4.6 was the LS chassis doesn't adapt well to the wider 4.6 DOHC engine. You could have some serious fitment issues. I think Ford screwed the pooch on this one. There could have been some serious performance options offered if they had been able to go with the 4.6 and done it much, much cheaper than with the Jaguar engines. But maybe that is not the direction they wanted to go with this car so it was a non-issue with them. Still, how many LS's could they sell with the 4.6 s/c engine in them...especially for no more than that motor would cost them compared to the Jag. I'm betting a bunch.

Posted by: hoss1324

That is my point the blocks are almost the same therefore the supercharger on the aj34s might fit on to the aj35, all it does is compress air right? so the heads and valve size, shape, color, creed doesnt matter. Maybe a tap and dye set is required to jerry rig the thing on an line up a few holes, but thats the part where i'm stuck, i dont know where to find out if it will line up.

Posted by: thamarkman

Is there a big weight difference between the 3.9 and 4.6?

Posted by: Quik LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoss1324

That is my point the blocks are almost the same therefore the supercharger on the aj34s might fit on to the aj35, all it does is compress air right? so the heads and valve size, shape, color, creed doesnt matter. Maybe a tap and dye set is required to jerry rig the thing on an line up a few holes, but thats the part where i'm stuck, i dont know where to find out if it will line up.

I believe the Jag setup is worth about $8k in parts - pretty expensive setup. If it ain't just goiong to drop on - might as well start working with components that are more common and easier to replace.

Posted by: SurfjaxLS

Hey Quik, any idea on when yours will be up and running?

Posted by: Quik LS

Well - here's the e-mail I got last night... sooooon

From: ATSTurbo@aol.com [mailto:ATSTurbo@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 10:35 PM
To: Lou Senko
Subject: Re: SuperCharger for Lincoln LS

LOU,
THOUGHT YOU MIGHT LIKE TO SEE THE PROGRESS I HAVE MADE. BOLTED THE '01 LS HEADS ON THE BLOCK (PART NUMBER IS THE SAME FOR THE BLOCK), AND TRIMMED THE NECESSARY SECTIONS OF THE MANIFOLD. WATER TEMPERATURE SENDER WILL BE REMOVED FROM THE HEAD AND MOUNTED IN THE COOLING WATER PASSAGE IN THE RADIATOR HOSE HOUSING I MADE. THE HOLE IN THE HEAD WILL BE PLUGGED. SHOULD BE DONE IN A FEW DAYS. PULLEY ROUTING AND IDLER SETUP IS DONE, AS WELL AS WATER PIPES, ETC. FIGURING THE THERMOSTAT LOCATION OUT NOW. THEN PORT & POLISH THE MANIFOLD, SUPERCHARGER, AND PAINT & BOX IT.

THOMAS (GEOFF) KNIGHT
THOMAS KNIGHT TURBOS
BOOSTHEAD.COM
786-243-2000
22050 SW 155 AVE
MIAMI, FL
33170

Posted by: hoss1324

What type of supercharger is that it looks like an eaton, and did he send any info on mounting modifications?

Posted by: Quik LS

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/sho...0839#post60839

M90 from a T-bird SC.

Posted by: 2001LS8Sport

Quote:

Originally Posted by thamarkman

Is there a big weight difference between the 3.9 and 4.6?

I don't have the specs in front of me. I wouldn't think it would be an issue though if the 4.6 were heavier...it couldn't be by much. However the Cobra 4.6 is about 150 lbs + heavier if I recall. It uses an iron block...and of course the supercharger.

Posted by: rocket5979

Why not drop in a new generation explorer 4.6 engine in? Both the new gen x's and LS's have the same computer and same tranny. There would be some configuring, but not as much as any other engine swap I would think.

Posted by: 2001LS8Sport

Quik...I think that if you get the tune right on that set up, it's going to be one very, very nice car. I am still concerned about the compression/detonation, but if that is resolved by the tuner, you may really have something.

I hope the price comes in right. I know the Kenne Bell kit for the 01 Cobras is near $7000 for the one with the intercooler. And they wonder why they don't sell a lot of them. I'm guessing somewhere in the vicinity of $4500 will be a killer deal. You will need to package it with an SCT or Predator tuner if you can so it will be plug and play. The user can go to a dyno for fine tuning. Or how about a switch chip with two different tunes...one for 100 octane and the other for 93?

I hope this works out! Go beat on that thing and see how it holds up! One area of weakness on the 03/04 Cobras with a pullied Eaton is sustained high speed runs (160 mph or so) The cylinder heads can't cool cylinders 7 and 8 well enough and they are seeing scorched pistons and the dreaded "tick". They released a new head in January of this year that is supposed to fix that.

Posted by: daveo

Quick I'm comming from the import world but could you use a mass air controller? They usally hack into the Mass air and you fool the computer into thinking less air is comming in. I was just wondering if you considered that already. I don't think that the compression ratio will be that bad but you would always have to use high test to fight off detanation. I was running 25 psi on a 9:5:1 motor on good old pump gas.

Posted by: 2k2ls

yea i used an afc on my nissan worked well with the open atmosphere blow off

Posted by: hoss1324

I guess my idea was a dead end, i found some one on another forum that posted exactly the same idea of a jag sc for ls on a different site about 2 years ago and no positive response from him. i guess it wont work out if it had been thought of that long ago and no one has solved it yet

Posted by: rocket5979

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveo

Quick I'm comming from the import world but could you use a mass air controller? They usally hack into the Mass air and you fool the computer into thinking less air is comming in. I was just wondering if you considered that already. I don't think that the compression ratio will be that bad but you would always have to use high test to fight off detanation. I was running 25 psi on a 9:5:1 motor on good old pump gas.

If the computer thinks there is less air coming in than there really is it will cut fuel to compensate = lean condition = detonation = blown engine. I highly suggest against that. There are much better ways to do things than hacks. That is what the Xcalibrator is for. Tune it right and dont cut corners by trying to fool sensors that are there not only to let your FI engine work well but also to detect certain conditons that could otherwise destroy an engine. There is a thing that us modular 4.6 guys, especially cobra fella's, use and that is the MAFterburner. It functions in a way like what you suggested but is not meant to be used to make things safer it is used to extend the CFM that the MAFS will read to so as to prevent pegging it. Anything less than 10-12 psi boost and you will not even need to think of doing this. They are only necessary on BIG horsepower vehicles.

Posted by: GranPappy

I have a 93 thunderbird supercoupe just sitting in my yard right now. If you guys culd make this work, than Id be VERY interested.

Posted by: Quik LS

right - the plan it to offer it with and without the SC itself - so people can buy them off e-bay or re-builders and such. It will keep the costs down.

It is built to fit the Thunderbird 3.8L M90 right-drive SC.

Posted by: GranPappy

are you going to use eny other part from the thunderbird? like the intercooler maybe?

Posted by: Quik LS

I don't think so - the intercooler looks like it will need to be front (grill) mounted. The thunderbird use an upright side mount and there doesn't appear to be enough room in the LS.

Haven't really look good at it though.

Posted by: ArdenJag

i see your dealing with goeff..hes a good guy, i was with him back in the days when i had my ford probe gt turbo..hes very intelegent guy and smart too he got an answer to alomst everything you ask him....as a matter of fact i got to contact him regarding an idea of mine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quik LS

Well - here's the e-mail I got last night... sooooon

From: ATSTurbo@aol.com [mailto:ATSTurbo@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 10:35 PM
To: Lou Senko
Subject: Re: SuperCharger for Lincoln LS

LOU,
THOUGHT YOU MIGHT LIKE TO SEE THE PROGRESS I HAVE MADE. BOLTED THE '01 LS HEADS ON THE BLOCK (PART NUMBER IS THE SAME FOR THE BLOCK), AND TRIMMED THE NECESSARY SECTIONS OF THE MANIFOLD. WATER TEMPERATURE SENDER WILL BE REMOVED FROM THE HEAD AND MOUNTED IN THE COOLING WATER PASSAGE IN THE RADIATOR HOSE HOUSING I MADE. THE HOLE IN THE HEAD WILL BE PLUGGED. SHOULD BE DONE IN A FEW DAYS. PULLEY ROUTING AND IDLER SETUP IS DONE, AS WELL AS WATER PIPES, ETC. FIGURING THE THERMOSTAT LOCATION OUT NOW. THEN PORT & POLISH THE MANIFOLD, SUPERCHARGER, AND PAINT & BOX IT.

THOMAS (GEOFF) KNIGHT
THOMAS KNIGHT TURBOS
BOOSTHEAD.COM
786-243-2000
22050 SW 155 AVE
MIAMI, FL
33170

Posted by: Frogman

For what it's worth, Gentlemen:

This is an excerpt from an email from David Dalke, a Supercoupe Guru who has come up with an alternative to the OEM Eaton M90 in The Supercoupe. I hate to break it to you sir, but your M90 may not be that great on that V-8: Excerpt Follows:

Quote:

We talk boost all the time but we often neglect airflow. The bottom line is that an engine need CFM airflow to make power. According to some very detailed calculations (and I am no engineer or mathematician so these are NOT my calculations!) a basic 3.8 needs about 350cfm naturally aspirated. At 10psi and 5000rpm, it needs about 550cfm. Based on the charts I have for the M90, this is exactly what the M90 puts out meaning that these calculations seem to hold up. It also supports my notion that Ford very carefully designed the SC as a package that works together. No more, no less. Now keep in mind that no amount of porting can increase the output of a positive displacement blower. All porting can do (in terms of airflow) is extend the rpm range capability of the blower. So if we assume that porting has been 100% effective in increasing the rpm range of the blower, we can calculate that after taking into account factors for temperature and M90 blower efficiency, 900cfm airflow will be needed to support the same motor at 6000rpm and 18psi. Here is where things get ugly. To generate 18psi and 900cfm on a motor with 100% VE requires 24000rpm with the M90 which, if in theory is even possible through porting, the net output after taking into account heat generation and loss of efficiency is a net of 675cfm. Herein lies the secret as to why people can't make high rpm power with their M90's and why Coy Miller needed a cog drive to spin it. The more boost you make, the more heat eats into your output, combined with an VE rating of about 72-75% at 18psi and you have passed the point of diminishing returns. We do not have hard data on the MPII regarding output at high rpm and high boost so unfortunately we have to make some guesses, but I've used best case scenario for comparison purposes.

If you have any questions, you may "hunt" him down on the SCCoA forums.

As far as your intercooler, PM me and I will steer you in the right deirection for a Front Mount designed for the Supercoupe. It will look like this one on my SC:

Posted by: Quik LS

Frogman - this is nothing new. Clearly you have to match the output capibility of the blower to the requirements to the engine... what's why they make different size blowers - right?

The idea is we are going to run 5psi on Stage 1.
Stage 2 - 8psi with the Snow Performance cooler.
Stage 3 - forged internals and such.....

I'm not likely to go past Stage 1 myself (yeah - I keep telling myself that...) but clearly at the 5 to 8 psi level the M90 will handle that low level of flow.

Posted by: Frogman

Eh.. Im curious how it will work.

I wish you good torque.

Posted by: rocket5979

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quik LS

The idea is we are going to run 5psi on Stage 1.
Stage 2 - 8psi with the Snow Performance cooler.
Stage 3 - forged internals and such.....

Man custom forged internals = some serious mula for these cars! I talked to Oliver(yes I know, super expensive) and I was astounded at the price they quoted me for a set of custom billet connecting rods alone! Whew! I think I will wait for someone else to get the ball running on this one before I join in. I will stick to 6-8 lbs boost on a centri for a while once I start mine.

Posted by: Quik LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket5979

I will stick to 6-8 lbs boost on a centri for a while once I start mine.

That's exactlly where I'm coming from. Just more daily driving hp.

Posted by: GranPappy

well seeing as were on the subject of a supercharged 3.9-liter... did eny one else see what ford had done with the concept 2003 thunderbird Link

What ever happened to that setup?

Posted by: Quik LS

it died with the McLaren LS - not enough demand from the dealers to sell a high-pro version of a vehicle that is already hardly selling.....

Posted by: rocket5979

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quik LS

That's exactlly where I'm coming from. Just more daily driving hp.

Exactly! I already got a vehicle I plan to race. I would be happy with about 375-400 fwhp on the LS for "passing power".

Posted by: hoss1324

screw the supercharger if nobody can figure one out, how did that guy get the rear mounted turbo, i would be happy with that. i want plans

Posted by: Quik LS

not sure why you say " if nobody can figure one out " ...

Posted by: rocket5979

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoss1324

screw the supercharger if nobody can figure one out, how did that guy get the rear mounted turbo, i would be happy with that. i want plans

The intake mounted supercharger will be a heck of allot harder to fab up than a centrifugal supercharger. A centri is pretty simple actually, you fab up the mounting brackets and then fab the tubing and your good to go. Allot more leeway for custom placement and design with a centrifugal than a positive displacement(Eaton roots) supercharger. The turbo is another route to go too. Getting a turbo or supercharger itself is not going to be the hard part of a project like this, it will be tuning for it and also making sure you dont have any breakage.

Posted by: Dead President

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket5979

If the centrifugal is so simple why hasn't anyone done it? I guess I could answer that myself because there is basically no market for one. Just a handful of owners who want more out of their daily. Also, another main problem is lack of space to mount a turbo/supercharger(centri) in the engine bay. I have yet to see a centrifugal type supercharger or turbo(in engine bay) installed on an LS.

Posted by: Quik LS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead President

Correct - plus the $$$ for a centri is much more.

Posted by: rocket5979

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead President

IF a person knows what they are doing and knows the constraints of the project they are working around and keep all of those in mind while they are building it then it will be relatively simple. You are right that there is no market for one. That is why it is going to be done custom. From the high compression to the lack of aftermarket for these trannies to the TBW for the 03+ LS's all do lead to some hurdles to cross. Those hurdles already mentioned would have to be crossed with any aftermarket forced induction. As for the centri fitting into the engine bay? Well I know it is tight and all but things can be relocated. Stock for stock there will not be much room but once you clear out this little fluid tank or a few other minor things you will find a way to make enough room to get the head unit and its intake ducting in there too. There is a possibiliity that the stock hood will have to be modified to make it fit, but rest assured it will not be anything crazy like a 4" cowl hood or anything that will make the car look like crap. There are hurdles with the centrifugal too, but they are allot easier to get over while not having a CNC machine available to you is my point. Take it from a more creative and outside of the box POV and you will be less skeptical. I may be new to this site but I am not new to the race crowd and to custom drive bracketry fabbing or just general overall fabrication with metal. There is a way, you just got to see it and not be so apprehensive to take it.

Posted by: rocket5979

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quik LS

Correct - plus the $$$ for a centri is much more.

Not at all! Figure that instead of getting a centri kit, your just getting the head unit. Most of those go for less then $2,000 from the Vortech S trim($1,750) to the Novi 1000 for ($1,550). Considering that the Roots types are going for usually well over $3,000 at the lowest and you really have a viable alternative! All the bracketry will be made in-house with having to order one or two ball bearing pulleys for the tensioning system. Then the actual tubing can be done at a local, yet reputable, exhaust shop or by yourself if you have access to a TIG welder and are pretty practiced up. The exhaust shop I got my trucks exhaust done at was going to hook me up with a custom piece for my other custom supercharger installation before my vehicle was totalled. After that it is a matter of grinding it and sanding it to make it smooth and then send it off to be powdercoated in your favorite color if you so choose. Tap and run the oil lines(if needed) from the OPSU and to the pan and then do all the rest of the normal forced induction mods such as injectors, reprogrammed MAS, base tune with Xcal2 and datalog it in normal driving conditions for drivability, then take it to the dyno tuner for fine tuning and safety and that is pretty much the gist. I dont know about you all but it sounds like a blast to me. I have been itching to do a project like this again for the last 2 years.

Posted by: Dead President

Anything is possible with cars. It's all about the dollars though, it's always about the dollars.

To put it this way, if I had the money to heavily modify a LS, I wouldn't own a LS. Maybe something along the lines of a XJR, M5, S600, etc.

Posted by: rocket5979

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead President

Anything is possible with cars. It's all about the dollars though, it's always about the dollars.

To put it this way, if I had the money to heavily modify a LS, I wouldn't own a LS. Maybe something along the lines of a XJR, M5, S600, etc.

The thing is that what I am talking about would not cost that much to do. I mean it will not be like buying a Happy Meal at McDonalds or anything but it will not be really expensive either. It would cost less than a conventional supercharger kit would because some of the expensive stuff like the bracketry which runs usually a little more than $1,000-$1,500, will be fabricated at the home steel workshop with a oxy/acet torch or plasma torch drill press, chopsaw, 4.5" grinder with cutoff wheel and brush wheel attachments, tap and die set, very accurate measuring, and the charger head unit and car (or very accurate template) sitting in front of you for measuring reference. A person would be surprised what kind of quality stuff can be made in a humble steelshop with simple tools. Sometimes people forget that you dont need a $50,000 CNC machine to fab metal parts. You cannot mass produce stuff this way but then again you only need to do just one.